Rubbing side raw in stable, how to stop

[evie's mummy]

Hi Guys

I have a typical cob x id who has vile stable manners in general but particularly at feeding time. He used to kick the stable wall but as I just moved to my own brick built stables he has stopped kicking the wall but just barges into it giving it a good shove with his quarters. He is doing it so much that he is ripping his rugs to pieces and rubbing his side raw (about the size of a 50p is really sore) Firstly any ideas on how to stop. He has good turnout with company and is happy to come in around 4-5pm. If i leave him out any later he generally becomes a bully in the field so I'm guessing his quite happy to come in. He has a regularly routine, knows his going to be fed twice a day, adlib hay, good grazing, regular exercise. Before he cannons into the wall he usually lunges forwards out of his door with all teeth flashing and has actually bitten me right between my shoulder blades when I was coming out of his stable. He is just generally horrible to be around but is a complete lamb whilst out of the stable. Can I do anything to change this behaviour and any ideas of treating the sores because although I regularly apply wound cream its pointless whilst he is still doing this. Any ideas?

[Alfies-slave]

Firstly I would investigate why this is happening. Has he got lice? Has he been splashed with some kind of irritant?

Sometimes horses self harm, they get a buzz from it and it becomes a habbit. In this case there is little you can do, except distract them, eliminate boredom and make them feel secure.

Before doing anything drastic, and having eliminated physical causes, I would try distracting him with stable toys, mirrors etc. A change of stable, a change of neighbour might be what it takes to snap him out of it.

This horse sounds unsettled to start off with, more turnout and exercise if practacle. A good tight routine to build up a sense of security.

If all fails, and this horse is damaging himself electric tape all the way round might be the solution.

I don't envy you, I have a horse that bites himself till he bleeds if he is stressed! Plenty of turnout, company, routine and distraction sorted him. However, if I get lax about it all he reverts back to self harming.

[Jessey]

Why does he start bullying the others if left out? is there ample grass or hay out there? or is it just because you are late and he wants in? If he is so keen to come in then I would assume its not stress (from being in) causing his bad behaviour.

TBH my first though is that he is really hungry, or perhaps he has been in the past (starved/neglected)? and that is why round tea time he becomes so nasty. I would try putting some hay out in the field if you can, he might bulk up on that and not get so grumpy with everyone.

Re the bucket feed, if you can I would start feeding him the same ammount split into smaller feeds more often and get a rubber bucket that can be left laying around (in stable and field) empty so he begins to not associate the bucket with having food in it all the time and if he gets more feeds he might not over react quite so much each time.
If thats not possible I would still try the empty bucket trick,it really can help some to not get quite so wound up over buckets, also put your grooming kit in a bucket, so buckets aren't always feeds (again ;))

Personally I would take a very serious stand, he should wait until he is told he can have the feed, if my guys get grumpy about feed (nipping or kicking the door) I will either put the feed in and keep telling them wait and pushing them away until they stop pushing their luck, but only if it is safe to do this, if its not safe, then I would keep the door shut and the feed outside and keep saying wait, until he stands quietly.

At the moment he lashes out at you and you promptly feed him - so he thinks he is being rewarded for lashing out, to change that you can only ever give him his feed when he is standing quietly out of your space.

This process took me an hour the first time with Bo, and his was just baby bulshyness, your chap could take somewhat longer to give in.

Having said all that, if you think he has been starved in the past denying him his feed may acctually make things worse so consider carefully how you want to deal with it :p if thats the case, I would probably try giving him a long lasting feed (like HiFi or Alfa) and put it in the stable before he arrives so that he will think there is always feed available, then once he relaxes and realises you won't starve him again you can start changing the routine :D

best of luck, you have a really tough problem to deal with there.

J x

[puzzles]

ditto both of the above.
in horses who become stressed in the stable (i.e. the vast majority) only a handful actually show signs of not wanting to be stabled (such as refusing to be caught, napping whilst being led, whinnying to field companions, etc), so your horse could well be stressed.
in fact, i would go as far as to say he sounds very uncomfortable with the curent situation. to be honest, you have answered part of your own question: he behaves like a lamb in the field yet it has got to the point where he turns to violence to try and tell you how he feels, because honestly he probably feels you just are not listening and he needs to express himself further.
therefore is there a reason why he does not live out 24/7? all horses can live out all years round happily, and your horse's breeding means that, unless the yard does not allow it, what's stopping you?
i'm willing to bet that he becomes aggressive after that particular time in the early evening because (especially since he appears to know his daily routine so well - 1) he is anticipating his feed, and
2) he is anticipating being brought in
- both of which cause him to feel stressed and frustrated, becoming aggressive and difficult to handle.

imagine this: you are your horse. you are feeling stressed out by being brought into a small 4-by-4 box each evening for hours without company and your only source of food running out at about 2am. you may not even be able to see other horses, and you stand there for more hours until someone comes to get you to give you your feed and set you free.
now imagine that, after a while, you begin to work out the time in which you are being boxed, and as a result begin to worryjust thinking about it, making you more likely to try and get free again when that same person comes to get you each evening again.
then, you think, they give you your food and start twittering about, perhaps cleaning up around you or tying up your net (that never lasts the full night anyway) or refilling your water buckets, etc, etc . . .

- i think this may well be how your horse is feeling.

make sure that, when you feedd him, you leave him well alone until you are sure he mst be finished - go do other jobs and leave any stable equiptmwent you may need later/for your horse during the night a little way outside the stable.

even better, leave him out - the aggression is a sign of him trying to tell you something. he probably acts bossy to the other horses because he is anticipating feed/stabling, and is acting defensively of hisself.
i'm sure you'll see a big improvement with ad-lib forage at all times (bearing in mind that 1kg of hay lasts aboput 20 mins and ikg of haylage about 12 mins) - add toys to his stable if he has to be so as horses only sleep for about 4 hours each day and often spend most of the night with nothing to do whatsoever.
ad-lib forage (preferably hay) is essential for healthy gut function and a happy, content and satisfied horse who remains occupied all night.

here are some cheap/free, homemade ideas you may find useful:
you can also buy toys and licks, which i recommend.

1) bob apples (or any other furit/veg you find that can float) in his water buckets
2) hide slices of carrot or other vegetable/fruit in his haynets
3) preferably, feed any forage from the floor: it aids the respiratory system (particuarly as he is stabled a fair bit) and is a more natural/healthy position.
4) feed 2, preferably 3 haynets (try both and see which one works best by how much he eats of them on average) placed around the stable to give him the freedom of choice, in doinf so stimulating his brain
5) another big brain stimulator is hanging (by baler twine) varying lengths of fruit and vegetables for him to chew at at will
6) placing a reasonable branch of willow/birch/beech, or chestnut tree for him to ctrip and chew as he would in the wild/field.
7) if he cannot touch or have another horse next door to him (even if he can see any other horses), is it possible for you to knock a brick or a few in varying places in the parralell walls in his stable.

one of the most important and hands-down effective things you can do, is change your attitude: going around fully expecting a nip, or pulling your horse firmly from field to stable, not smiling or just thinking (and therefore appearing) negative and resentful towards your horse will, and does make him mirror this behaviour back to you - just as you would quite a sulky collegue.
behave positively. speak to your horse so he knows where you are - be firm and assertive but never aggressive and definately no smacking either: horses don't understand it and yours will wonder why you just hurt him for no apparent reason.

good luck!

:-)

[puzzles]

ditto both of the above.
in horses who become stressed in the stable (i.e. the vast majority) only a handful actually show signs of not wanting to be stabled (such as refusing to be caught, napping whilst being led, whinnying to field companions, etc), so your horse could well be stressed.
in fact, i would go as far as to say he sounds very uncomfortable with the curent situation. to be honest, you have answered part of your own question: he behaves like a lamb in the field yet it has got to the point where he turns to violence to try and tell you how he feels, because honestly he probably feels you just are not listening and he needs to express himself further.
therefore is there a reason why he does not live out 24/7? all horses can live out all years round happily, and your horse's breeding means that, unless the yard does not allow it, what's stopping you?
i'm willing to bet that he becomes aggressive after that particular time in the early evening because (especially since he appears to know his daily routine so well - 1) he is anticipating his feed, and
2) he is anticipating being brought in
- both of which cause him to feel stressed and frustrated, becoming aggressive and difficult to handle.

imagine this: you are your horse. you are feeling stressed out by being brought into a small 4-by-4 box each evening for hours without company and your only source of food running out at about 2am. you may not even be able to see other horses, and you stand there for more hours until someone comes to get you to give you your feed and set you free.
now imagine that, after a while, you begin to work out the time in which you are being boxed, and as a result begin to worryjust thinking about it, making you more likely to try and get free again when that same person comes to get you each evening again.
then, you think, they give you your food and start twittering about, perhaps cleaning up around you or tying up your net (that never lasts the full night anyway) or refilling your water buckets, etc, etc . . .

- i think this may well be how your horse is feeling.

make sure that, when you feedd him, you leave him well alone until you are sure he mst be finished - go do other jobs and leave any stable equiptmwent you may need later/for your horse during the night a little way outside the stable.

even better, leave him out - the aggression is a sign of him trying to tell you something. he probably acts bossy to the other horses because he is anticipating feed/stabling, and is acting defensively of hisself.
i'm sure you'll see a big improvement with ad-lib forage at all times (bearing in mind that 1kg of hay lasts aboput 20 mins and ikg of haylage about 12 mins) - add toys to his stable if he has to be so as horses only sleep for about 4 hours each day and often spend most of the night with nothing to do whatsoever.
ad-lib forage (preferably hay) is essential for healthy gut function and a happy, content and satisfied horse who remains occupied all night.

here are some cheap/free, homemade ideas you may find useful:
you can also buy toys and licks, which i recommend.

1) bob apples (or any other furit/veg you find that can float) in his water buckets
2) hide slices of carrot or other vegetable/fruit in his haynets
3) preferably, feed any forage from the floor: it aids the respiratory system (particuarly as he is stabled a fair bit) and is a more natural/healthy position.
4) feed 2, preferably 3 haynets (try both and see which one works best by how much he eats of them on average) placed around the stable to give him the freedom of choice, in doinf so stimulating his brain
5) another big brain stimulator is hanging (by baler twine) varying lengths of fruit and vegetables for him to chew at at will
6) placing a reasonable branch of willow/birch/beech, or chestnut tree for him to ctrip and chew as he would in the wild/field.
7) if he cannot touch or have another horse next door to him (even if he can see any other horses), is it possible for you to knock a brick or a few in varying places in the parralell walls in his stable.

one of the most important and hands-down effective things you can do, is change your attitude: going around fully expecting a nip, or pulling your horse firmly from field to stable, not smiling or just thinking (and therefore appearing) negative and resentful towards your horse will, and does make him mirror this behaviour back to you - just as you would quite a sulky collegue.
behave positively. speak to your horse so he knows where you are - be firm and assertive but never aggressive and definately no smacking either: horses don't understand it and yours will wonder why you just hurt him for no apparent reason.
respecting his space (which is vital) will achieve a mirror response in return. you need to earn his trust in you (hah, in each other!) - try playing some games with him, such as the parelli 'seven games', or loose schooling to gain his respect and trust in return. i could go on forever about this!
your breakdown in relationship can and will be resolved if you remain consistant and willing for change to happen!
try NH such as parelli/intelligant horsemanhip - they're fab!

good luck!

:-)

[evie's mummy]

Thanks for taking the time to give me your thoughts guys. I'll give some more background info just to reinforce that we're on the right path on helping my neddy. He is only five and from what I can gather he has had a unsettled time of it. I bought him last summer from a semi dealer who brought him on from a friend . He had been shipped over from Ireland and had already had a stint in a riding school before they decided he was not suited. So already my poor lad has a right old time of it. I have just moved him to my own yard (yipee) so although this will now be his home for life he is not to know that. He is very unsettled and has started napping which is a trait he has never had. I am having regular lessons to bring him on and he is really improving. He has as much hay as he will eat and there is always some left in morning. We have plenty of grazing and he has company both in the field and stable as he can see and touch his stable mate. He is getting better at feed time. We have a very strict routine which both me and my husband follow. He is brought in and tied up outside with haynet whilst we do feet rugs etc. He is then lead into stable where hay and feed is waiting. He now waits patiently whilst I take off headcollar and then he will eat feed but in between times will lunge at door to see whats going on and will then generally bang into the wall. I never do jobs whilst he is in stable so I'm not annoying him. He is a real people person and is always hanging around the gate for attention. Although he bit me badly lately I do not hit him and he does receive alot of attention and praise for his good behaviour. I can see that being unsettled is the cause of this and hoping that this will ease in time. With regards to leaving out at night, I can certainly do this but perhaps I am guilty of humanising him because he looks so miserable at times up to his knees in mud and calling for me. In my mind I thought he would be happier in a warm stable with its big fluffy bed (he also has stable toys, swedes on ropes etc) Should i perhaps bring him in, feed him and then turn him out in warmer rug for the night? Its so cold and windy and muddy here at the mo I must admit I'd feel really cruel but perhaps I should treat him as a 'hoss' and not think of him as my third child? Sorry for the essay!!!

[teabiscuit]

is the stable big enough?

is he hitting the wall because he needs (in his mind) to see out and in order to do so he has to urgently turn around and bangs himself because he's too close to the wall?


if you put the food bucket and net near the door so he can see out without turning around would that help?

sorry for all the questions :)

[Jessey]

I like TB's idea, maybe one of those over the door hanging buckets would help :D I always put Bo's haynet by the door, otherwise it looks like he has box walked all night, he hasn't but between each mouthful likes to go look out so putting his hay by the door means he can settle in one place :D

Perhaps giving him some rescue remedy might help him settle in a bit more, it can work wonders :D

It sounds like he just needs routine, which is what you are doing and it sounds like he is slowly improving, I think it is just going to take him some time to realise you are there to look out for him :D

Leaving him out might help, but if he gets agressive around in time it might not, perhaps feed and rug one night and lead him out and see if he is keen to go back out again, or if he digs his heels in :p I like to listen to my guys, often they are happy out in weather I think they would hate :D

[evie's mummy]

Thanks for all your thoughts guys. The size of the stable is not the problem, he is not just bumping into it but throwing himsef backwards into the wall accompanied by the most evil face pulling, teeth gnashing faces you could imagine.

He is fed from a hay bar which is fairly near the door also water and feed are also placed by the door.
I think I'm going to leave him out and see what happens. The only problem being there is no field shelter as yet and not alot of natural shelter. What do you guys who turn out 24/7 provide in the way of shelter?

[evie's mummy]

[QUOTE=Jessey;1129046]

Perhaps giving him some rescue remedy might help him settle in a bit more, it can work wonders :D

Jessey I've not heard of this for horses. Is it along the Bach ones for people?

[teabiscuit]

just the hedges along the fence line-they make a good windbreak

then they have a lightweight rug on to keep them dry and lots of haylage to eat to keep them warm

that includes TBs as well
i don't use heavyweight rugs becasue i had trouble with rainscald developing when they sweated

[Jessey]

Perhaps giving him some rescue remedy might help him settle in a bit more, it can work wonders :D

Jessey I've not heard of this for horses. Is it along the Bach ones for people?


Exactly the same, it can be safely used for horses and dogs and cats too if you want :D just 1/2 a dozen squirts on ait of apple a coupleof times a day I think, but I am sure if you call them they would advise of dosage :D

[Rips]

i don't use heavyweight rugs becasue i had trouble with rainscald developing when they sweated

Had the same problem last winter with my TB mare developed rainscald under her rug because of sweat, nice to hear someone else does too!

RE the OP;
Ideally you need to find a proper solution/ eliminate cause for behaviour but for the meantime can you pad the walls at the height where he's scraping himself? I worked at an ISPCA centre and they had a strip of rubber matting on the walls at midheight all the way round.

[teabiscuit]

you can get strips of old conveyer belts which are made of rubber from local quarries and the like

its a good idea :)

[puzzles]

here are some fabulous bach flower remdey oils for behavioural problems always seek a professional's advice: i swear by these.

past trauma (abuse)/resentment/anger - rose, yarrow
fear - jasmine, rose, frankincense
seperated from companion - neroli, violet leaf, rose
headstrong, bargy horses - jasmine, nutmeg, vetiver

here are many examples of oils you may find useful:

bergamot - balancing, uplifting. externally/orally
chamomile, roman - calming. nervous stress (especially showing in skin/stomach, e.g. colic, flaky skin, bald patches, sweet itch). externally/orally
clary sage - nervous irritability, nervous/panicky horses (violet leaf iis often a more effective first choice). externally
frankincense - past and present fears, slows and deepens breathing, especially if breathing is anxiey-related. externally
grapefruit - refreshing, uplifting. externally
jasmine - helps to distance the mind form fears/worries, for those who spend a lot of time stabled/weavers. externally
lavender - soothing, calming, often very effective first choice. externally
lemon - (when applied externally), uplifting. externally
neroli (orange blossom) - sadness, depression. loss of a companion, nervous disorders affecting heart/stomach, gives confidence. loss of will to get better. externally
nutmeg - helps to 'centre' horses with scattered energy, influences dream activity. also for bargy horses and those difficult to hold back. externally/orally
rose - resentment, anger, past trauma. past abuse. externally
sandalwood - emotionally soothing and realxing. externally
vetiver - deeply grounding and relaxing, useful treatmentfor nervous tension. externally
violet leaf - nervous, unsettled horses that spook easily. move to new home/yard. comforts and strengthens the heart and is used for nervous exhaustion: popular with many horses, the aroma resembles grass cuttings and cucumber! externally/orally
yarrow - strong emotional release. externally
ylang ylang - somforting and relaxing. distances worries, giving carefree feelings; similiar in properties to jasmine. foals and yearlings will very often respond to ylang ylang, whereas older horses will more frequently respond to jasmine. externally

a radio left on the yard wwhen your horse is stabled, played quietly (in particuarly on a classical channel - shown in investigations to relax and improve concentration - may welkl help to sooth and calm your horse, allowing him to settle and feel restful.

good luck!

:-D

application
you can use up to 5 oils at one time. remember that some will work for a few days or even weeks until your horse begins to show interest in other oils and lack of response to the original oil, indicating that that oil has helped him so far anmd he no longer needs it, so can progress to another of this choice of need.
all oils can be licked off the hand if the horse chooses to do so (with the vets approval) - you must consult your vet before going using any oils.
offer the oils individually on the back of your hand. if he shows obvious interest in the oil/tries to lick it off (often with the back of his tongue)/eat the bottle then you've got one that will work with his problems. if, however, he turns away, puts his ears back or shows no sign of interest then move on: never force any on him. he knows which ones will and won't work for him, so trust his judgement before yours. each horse is individual and what works for one may not for another, regardless of their problems.

oral applications[U] - offer it twice daily until your horse's interest lessons, then offer once daily until all interest dies. do not apply for more than two weeks: if no improvement is seen before this time, stop using the oil. seek professional advice.
add approx. 6 drops of blended essential oil on a carrot/in a feed once or twice daily, for a maximum of 2 weeks.

[U]external application - if the horse is very keen on the aroma, apply twice daily to the nostrils and/or poll area, or allow him to lick it off your hand. remember to test the horse's response to the oil before each application.
when interest is moderate apply once daily until the horse turns away from the aroma. at this stage his condition should have improved/cleared. if not, it may be that an underlying issue needs to be treated. if no improvement is seen within the frist 2 weeks then discontinue the appolication of the chosen oil, regardless of teh horse's interest. seek professional advice.

[lor]

I'd let him live out. He obviously doesnt like being in a stable. Poor chap, i feel sorry for horses. They cannot speak to us and we can only tell whether they are happy or not by their behaviour. We must listen to them. Even if you pad the stable so he doesnt damage him self, he will still be unhappy. Soz if its not what you want to hear.

[teabiscuit]

is he wanting the bang then?
my horse likes being inside but he'll stand there kicking the wall until his hocks swell up

its an endorphin release thing i think, he won't do it outside

your boy sounds like he's doing it with agression, but he needs to make contact with the wall? is that right?

also thought of putting gorse bush branches up where he bangs himself-he may not like the prickles?

its not easy when they develop these habits, to know how to cure them.

[Jessey]

all oils can be licked off the hand if the horse chooses to do so
No, many oils should not be offered to be consumed internally, thsi could cause very serious problem and almost all oils should be siluted with a suitable carrier as they would be far to strong just used straight from the bottle.
Please take advise from an aromatherapist regarding oils. Bach flower remedies are very different as the tonics are made to be consumed internally.

you can use up to 5 oils at one time
You can use multiple oils together but you have to be very careful of what you are mixing, some oils should not be mixed together as it can change the effects that they will have and can cause problems. Again only a qualified aromatherapist should advise on which oils can be combined.

J x

[puzzles]

No, many oils should not be offered to be consumed internally, thsi could cause very serious problem
J x

The post i wrote was advice from an expert on aromatherapy, heehee! :D
you're right, some can't be used internally; i tried to label these particular ones as such.
advice from a proffessional in this field is always essential.
x;)

[Jessey]

The post i wrote was advice from an expert on aromatherapy, heehee! :D
you're right, some can't be used internally; i tried to label these particular ones as such.
advice from a proffessional in this field is always essential.
x;)

Puzzles I responded as you did not make this entirely clear, you stated all oils can be licked off the hand if the horse chooses to do so which is not true (My mother is an aromatherapist tutor) and I felt the information you gave in that instance could be taken to heart esp by some of the younger users on the board and could have serious repercusions :o

[puzzles]

what do you mean? (if i wrote something wrong i'd like to rectify it so that i know better).
thanks

[Jessey]

I'll PM you rather than take over the thread :D

ETD - well I would but you need to empty your PM box :D

[puzzles]

yup, done!