Passier saddles -Can anyone enlighten me?

[Thinkerbell]

As we all know, saddles are expensive. My friend and I are both considering to invest in new saddles during the next year or so, and are brosing the market. We have both found saddles that we find very interesting, but as they are very expensive, I would like to hear if anyone else have any experience with either the Passier Antares or the Passier GT. (Both can be seen by browsing www.passier.com (http://www.passier.com/start_e.html) and clicking your way to the dressage saddles.)

Thank you!

Thinkerbell

[Bebe]

I don't have experience with these saddles personally but if you go to the link there's a thread on passier saddles running at the moment, and if you search you'll probably find a few more.

http://www.ultimatedressage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum&f=15

Amanda

[Heather]

HI folks,

It was expensive German saddles that did my seatbones in and why I invented the Seatbone Saver, and subsequently designed my onw saddles! German saddles are very hard and unforgiving in my experience, and often very high in the front arch.

Heather

[myEllie]

I don't really think that it is surprising that Heather would say, "don't buy a passier, buy my saddle." I don't ride dressage, but my friend does and she has a GT. She has had no complaints about it. Sorry that probably doesn't help too much. :D

[ros]

Heather did NOT say "buy my saddles". She simply recounted her own experience.

If Heather thinks someone else makes good products she will say so. She's scrupulously honest and professional, very open-minded, and she most certainly does not criticise any product without concrete foundation.

In MY experience Heather's saddles are the most horse-friendly that I've ridden on, and that, to me, is the first and foremost consideration. I don't care how good a saddle looks on the outside, or how expensive it is or who made it - if it isn't horse-friendly it just won't do.

I have no experience of Passier saddles so I'm not in a position to comment specifically.

[Thinkerbell]

As it is, my seatbones really don't mind hard saddles all that much (my best dressage lesson so far was when I was 17-ish, in my Dad's old army saddle marked "Berlin 1937"...), I am more concerned about the saddle being high in the front arch.

My problem is that the GT is quite rare in Norway, so there's really no "try before you buy"... But the one I sat in once, I fell in love with. Totally.

TB

[Sue Watson]

What saddle you buy will largely be dependant on what type of horse you own as first and foremost the tree shape must fit the horse. Many German dressage saddles were designed for the backs of German warmbloods. Also many of the flaps and knee rolls are designed for fairly tallish riders so you will need to try them on you and your horse.

[Thinkerbell]

I can get my saddler to try on a Passier GG or Antares for me, as we have these in stock, and I think the tree would fit him (he's arabian, but fairly "Passiershaped"). And I am tallish. I would save myself SOO much trouble if I was willing to go for the Passier Antares, because then I could borrow a second-hand one for a couple of weeks and ride in it for a while. But the GT has extended stirrup bars...

And ros: I agree. That's why I would like a Passier, I have seen that these saddles when fitted correctly, of course are ery horse-friendly. But I am also considering Heathers saddles. Are they "typically English" dressage saddles? (Like the Albion or the Fieldhouse).

TB

[Lisa McLachlan]

Hi

From somebody who has used Heather's saddles, I can say they are the best and most comfortable that I have ridden on. I am certainly getting some for my horses. I suggest you speak to Heather about them there are lots of different options, and price ranges. There's nothing typical about them, otherwise Heather wouldn't have had to take the trouble to design them. :D

MyEllie - I totally agree with Ros. You have got the wrong end of the stick about Heather. Her comments come from many years of experience not from a get rich quick scheme. Have you tried her saddles?

[Lisa Dyson]

Heather,

Who sells your saddles, I have seen one on the thorowgood website but thats it???

Thanks Lisa. :)

[Sue Carnell]

I've put a bit of info and a couple of pics of the new Heather saddles on her website. http://www.enlightenedequitation.com
There's already a bit of information about heather's saddles and a short article she's written as to her reasons behind her design.

The new saddles are called Easi-Sit and will be generally available soon, from selected saddlers and Heather's own saddle fitters. They will be priced at just over 500 pounds I think.

I admit to total bias. I love Heather saddles over any other. I personally haven't been able to sit comfortably on a Passier (though I haven't sat on many), though the saddles that really don't suit me at all are Stubbens and my (male) friend loves them for his showjumping.

Hope this helps (and the website works!)

Sue Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Heather]

HI Al,

I am sorry if my comments seemed like a blatant 'plug', but I wouldn't have designed the saddles in the first place if I hadn't felt a need for them. I didn't design them at all for commercial sale, not even the Seatbone Savers, which came about purely as result of me developing bursal enlargements on my seatbones as a result of riding in these hard saddles.

Friends started asking for the Seatbone Savers after seeing and riding on mine, and likewise, clients who rode on my saddles here on courses plagued me to sell them. As I make £2.50 royalty per pad out of the SBS's and around £25 a saddle on the new range, less on the TG, I am not likely to end up in the top 100 earners out of it all!

I have also often had riders here who have just bought new saddles and have told me how delighted they were with them. Then they rode on mine and said how they wished they had waited!

I have made the saddles as comfortable as possible and easy to sit in as much to save the horse too- if the rider is not wriggling around trying to maintain position, the horse does not have his balance disturbed nearly as much, nor have to bear the discomfort of someone shifting and wriggling their weight around on his sensitive back.

A lot of riders do not have problems with their seatbones because they are not sitting on them, instead tucking their tail under and sitting therefore on the fleshy part of the buttocks, further back on the saddle seat. This will instantly negate the action of the lower back as a shock absorber and cause the rider to 'drive' with the seat. It is also a prime cause of dmage to the horse's back, a fact which I was able to prove when asked to lecture at Cambridge Veterinary College on Riding Related Injuries to the Horse. I got the vet students to place thier hand under the cantle region of the saddle, between my horse movement simulator and the saddle panel. I rode the machine on a typical GP saddle provided by them, and then on mine. The vets were astonished at the difference- in the first saddle, they got their hand well squashed, and in mine, they could hardly feel me in the saddle.

I just want more saddles to be built in this way, not just to flog mine. What distresses me is the fact that nearly every saddle coming out of Walsall is still built in the hunting seat balance, and these saddles are not going to be around for two or three years, they will be around for twenty or more years, pepetuating the problems.

Talking of old Army saddles Ronnie, I had to borrow one when I was a teenager from a friend, after all my tack was stolen. How those poor soldiers ever manages is beyone me!! You must have a tough rear end! Most of the mounted police branches in the UK have bought SeatboneSavers from us to put on ther hard saddles- and I sold quite a few a few years back to the Household Cavalry, so even they are demanding more comfort now!

Heather

[Amanda Reynolds]

There are lots of beautiful looking saddles on offer when you go to horse trials and events etc, and it is hard to choose. However, after sitting in Heather's saddles in Devon, and having the very logical design features explained, I would go for one of hers. They are not much like the trad models, the seamless foam seat is unusual and fabulous.

In fact, I aim to get one of the new dressage ones when they come out (Sue they look great on the site, but not so sure about your typing (turly enctral?)!!

Amanda

[Sue Carnell]

ROTFL. I'd better check, I only had five minutes to spare so did it really quickly and didn't spell check. Thanks Amanda.

Sue Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Sue Carnell]

Checked and corrected. What you'd call 'touched' typing perhaps? :)

Sue Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[ros]

Like Sue and Amanda I'm also biased. I wouldn't want anything other than a Heather saddle now. I've got a full leather Barry Swain dressage version, but I'd REALLY also like a new Easi-sit GP (dream on, says Mark!) for galloping about in...

Makes I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole, either through my own first-hand experience or because friends/acquaintances (NOT Heather, I might add, in case anyone was wondering) have had bad experiences are Fieldhouse, Barnsby, Albion, and Palaton (SP? - no longer in production as I gather the chap died, but there are bound to be old saddles around). I have a Miller-Crosby hanging around which was made for Frank, but although it looked a nice saddle on the face of it and was quite comfortable for me, I'm not certain whether it's horse-friendly because I haven't taken it to bits yet! I'd love to sell it so I can get some money together for an Easi-sit, but I can't bring myself to do so unless I'm sure it isn't going to cripple some horse! That's the trouble - how the heck do you know for sure unless you can see inside the damn things?

Actually, I reckon all saddlers who sell saddles should have a model of each brand they sell on display so that you CAN see what's inside. If they've nothing to hide there shouldn't be a problem!

[Sue Watson]

The Miller Crosby is built on the laminated Walsall Riding Co tree which is an extremely strong and lightweight, unfortunately it is also banana shaped so the panel has to be made with a very deep gusset at the back to get it anywhere near the horse.

[Heather]

HI Sue,


Yes, this is the objection that my saddler, Barry Swain, has to deep seated trees- means that the weight is concentrated over a very small area of the horse's back. If the rider sinks into the seat as in mine, as opposed to sitting on top, of a hard, slippery piece of leather with Plastizote foam under it, as with most saddles (Plastizote being resilient and springy thereby adding to the bounce!) you do not need a bucket shaped seat to assist the rider to stay in the plate!

Very few Miller Crosby saddles used to be sold in the UK- most went to the States, but Walsall Riding is owned by them anyway, but they are now marketed in the Uk under the name Excel.

Apart from Balance and Fosters Saddlery who make the Lauriche- the latter Andy Foster, being trained by Barry Swain for many years and being the only other saddler that Barry has allowed to use his wide seat tree design which has such a fantastic bearing surface.

Most of the Balance saddles do have a very good bearing surface- just that they still haven't paid enough attention to the balance of the rider with bar placement and central seat.

Heather

[ros]

Which means I'v got a saddle that's no good for a flat-backed horse because the tree is probably banana-shaped, and no good for a banana-backed horse because the panels are stuffed flat.

Ah well - that's the best part of £700 down the drain, then!

[Sue Watson]

Ros,

If the tree fits the angle of the horses shoulder all is not necessarily lost. If you have a very good saddle fitter - ie someone who knows how to stuff a saddle correctly to fit a horse's back and the way in which the rider rides, (rather than someone who has gone on the Master Saddlers course for slapping on new saddles) he/she ought to be able to help you if there is enough leeway in the panel design

[ros]

Thanks Sue, but the problem is I'm not using the saddle any more and would have been looking to sell it. The only person I could in all conscience pass it on to, from what's been said, is someone with a banana-shaped horse and a b----y good saddler, and I reckon that must be a fairly specialised market!

[Heather]

At best, Sue, this is not a great compromise. A banana shaped tree is only suited to a horse with a banana shaped back- Ros's Merlin is like a table top! He really does need a tree that has a very wide bearing surface ie as flat as possible on the underside.

I agree that it is possible to flatten out the underside of a banana shaped tree with a panel that is designed to have very deep gussets at the back to even it out, but it is always more difficult to stop any potential bridging.

Thankfully more saddlers are at last beginning to see the error of these trees. The SMS has also begun proceedings to get a standard set for tree making after Kay Humphries lecture at Saddlers Hall last year.

Heather

[Sue Watson]

No, stuffing a panel in this way is not ideal, and the flocking would need careful monetoring as it settles, but it is possible. I do agree though that from the sound of Merlins back offloading the saddle is the best bet. It is a shame that these Walsall Riding Co tree moulds were designed in such a shape. I think the principle of a strong, lightweight laminated tree was a good one.

[ros]

Sue - the object of the exercise is not to offload said saddle. I'd dearly love to recoup some money from it - it wasn't a cheap saddle at the time - but I think the only way I could in all conscience do that would be to sell it to a VERY honest saddler who might just come across a sway-backed horse (possibly an older one) who needed a banana-shaped tree and would be capable of re-stuffing it to fit that horse. Unfortunately I don't trust any saddler to do that, so I think I'm stuck with it.

Heather - this was actually Frank's saddle, not Merlin's, and Frank was just as straight-backed as Merly, if not quite so broad sideways! It's just lucky for him that he was very big and very strong, otherwise I dread to think what damage I might have done him, poor lad.

[Sue Watson]

Sorry, Ros, I didn't mean that you were going to dump the saddle on some unsuspecting punter. I thought that you would sell it via a saddler. Its a shame that you haven't found a saddler you can trust, though I'm not entirely surprised.

[Heather]

Trouble is Sue, then the saddler will dump it on some unsuspecting punter!

I plan to take Ro's other saddle and another that one of her liveries have given me, to various saddlers on my travels and see whether they would make an offer on them, and wherthe any of them spot any faults. I will then probably turn my findings into an article, if any magazine has the guts to print it!!
Heather

[Sue Watson]

Sadly you are right, there is little doubt that if the saddler thinks he/she can make a turn on the saddles they will be taken. The level of aftercare from the vast majority of so called saddlers is negligable, let us hope it is now improving. It was not so long ago that you could open a saddlery shop with a certain level of stock and the Society of Master Saddlers would let you stick up a SMS plate even though you had never touched a saddle in you life.

ps Ros, just had a look at the Walsall Riding Co dressage tree I have kicking around in my loft - if it is the same one, circa 1990 - it is quite flat for the first two thirds then curves away for the last third - no good for a sway back either!

[Thinkerbell]

Since we are at it discussing saddles... Does anyone here know the Windsor saddles? Two dressage saddles can be viewed here (http://pelham-saddlery.com/products/new/dsaddles/windsor.html). These saddles are heavily marketed in Norway as being absolutely superb English saddles, but I am not convinced. I tried riding in one (the Green Line" once, and allthough it was "my size" and fitted the horse decently, it just didn't feel right. I believe they have a very banana-shaped tree inside the gusseted panels... I have seen saddlers succesfully reflock saddles to overcome this problem, but it does seem difficult!

TB

[Heather]

HI Ronnie,

Never heard of this make. I think it must be made solely by a manufacturer here for the US market. Ever heard of them Jo? ( if Wally is around!). Tree is an awful shape for the horse!

Heather

[Wally]

Not one I've ever come across, I'll ask about and see where it's made. From a rider's point of view and that of the horse....YUCK!

[Thinkerbell]

They are not made solely for the US (as we get them here in Norway), but I am really intrigued to see that you British people don't know about them. I mean, the other UK-made saddles I normally come across here are the saddles from Cliff-Barnsby, Fieldhouse and Albion... Not excactly obscure names! And the Windsors aren't cheapo stuff, either, they trade in the same price range as Stübben and Fieldhouse (perhaps slightly more expensive, we don't sell new Windsors in the shop where I work, and I've never considered buying one, so I don't really know.

People seem to like them because they are somewhat softer than the old German saddles. But I didn't find it any more comfortable than the newest Stübben.

Thinkerbell

[Thinkerbell]

I found one retailer with a webpage. The Windsor Elite Green Line trades at almost £100 over our retail price for, say, a Fieldhouse Klimke Dressage or a Stübben Scandica. The Windsor Elite is somewhat more expensive than a Kieffer Wien or a Stübben Siegfried.

I don't know if this is of any interest to you, but I suddenly got so curious about the background of the Windsor saddles...

[Heather]

Always interested in any saddlery news Ronnie, as I think most of the folk on this forum are- we have a least a couple of qualified saddlers ( makers rather than fiters) here that I know of!

Heather

[Thinkerbell]

On a Swedish discussion page I found something about the saddles that are sold in Sweden and Denmark under the "Windsor" brand are trading in Sweden under the name "Wellington" and perhaps also something like "edingbourgh"?

Now I'm becoming REALLY curious! :eek:

Thinkerbell