Question about Exmoors and "wild bay" colouring

[old_woman]

Chev, your post on duns was fascinating (I have always loved duns - but oddly never had one ...) especially about it being an atavistic colour.

Tell me, please, about the colour of the Exmoor ... sometimes I have read it described as "wild bay"; sometimes I have read that they occur as "bay, brown or dun".

They all seem to me to be remarkably similar to many Przewalski's horses in "markings" (for want of a better term - ie mealy muzzle, belly, groin and axillae) although lighter in "shade" (which is understandable given the environment).

ARE they bay? OR is it something else entirely?

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o171/sheenas_pix/Przewalski.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o171/sheenas_pix/Exmoor.jpg

[Afellpony]

The Exmoors are the primitive wild horse colour. They can be bay, brown, dun, or red (this is a very rare colour Exmoor but it's also very attractive). They all have the mealy muzzle and lighter colouring round their eyes. A dun coloured Exmoor is not like the conventional dun colour.

[old_woman]

I am aware they are "the primitive wild horse colour". But "regular" dun is also an atavistic colour. My question is whether "wild bay" is genetically bay or not. And if not, what are the modifiers?

I would be interested to see a picture of the Exmoor type of dun.

Ponies with the lighter markings typical of "wild bay" do pop out from time to time, and this type of marking is one of the most common ones in mules and is very common indeed with donkeys. Donkey colour genetics, however, are very different to those of horses.

[Afellpony]

The dun colour in an Exmoor is a yellowy sort of colour, not mousey. Exmoor bays can be red bay, brown bay, a sort of kaki bay, light and dark bay, a solid colour bay and some have dappling. Black manes and tails of course. They've evolved over millions of years and their colouring has adapted to the region where they inhabit. So all the colours now blend perfectly in with their moorland home. Just visit Exmoor and see how hard they are pick out. It's case of is it a pony, or is it a rock?!!!!!!!.

PS: The Exmoor is not 'regular' dun. They are the primitive wild horse yellowy dun. Whereas 'regular' dun is a khaki kind of colour! I think you'll find Prewalski's horse was also a yellow dun.

[capalldubh]

I am very interested in this - my bay horse - full up 16.2 and apparently of Irish origin - is bright (red) bay, but with a mealy muzzle, light/blond hairs at the root of his tail and through his mane, and light/blond hairs on his black legs. I am very intrigued how he came by this colouring - in my photos I often think he looks quite pony like.

So what's going on with bays?

[Afellpony]

Has he by any chance got Connemara in him?

[ambatt]

The mealy mouth and lighter leg colouring is usually caused by the pangare gene.

http://www.mustangs4us.com/Horse%20Colors/pangare.htm

Some research in France suggests that the Agouti gene A responsible for modifying black E to bay is slightly modified and given the A+ symbol. It is this A+ that is possibly responsible for wild type/primitive bay and seal brown colouration. It is highly probable that this was the original wild colour of equines, with the Taki/Przewalski horse actually being dun or possibly dun with the A+ allele.

Anymore than that you need Chev to answer!

[capalldubh]

Has he by any chance got Connemara in him?

We don't know - but it would be interesting, since it was a Connemara cross I went out shopping for, and then ended up buying what was described as "some sort of ISH" (also about 4 years younger, wrong sex and a full hand taller...)

I will upload some pics tomorrow that show the funny colours.

[old_woman]

Aaaah thanks - now THAT'S interesting, Ambatt! A very interesting link, too. My first pony 60 years ago was that seal-brown colour - there was always so much argument about "what" colour she was! One mystery solved!

What about this dun colour that in Exmoors is apparently different to "regular" dun? But which regular dun? There are lots of duns ... Is it dun with added mealy factor?

[ambatt]

I had a seal brown Arab - she was registered with the AHS as such (and is the one I am trying to trace).

I am not sure if dun is dun in the Exmoor as it doesn't really fit in with true dun colouration unless it dun with A+ or even another variant. AFAIK there has not been any colour tests carried out on the Exmoor, but I could pop along to the Exmoor forum and ask.

My first Exmoor (when I was 7) was the rich red colour which is VERY rare now, he was gorgeous.

[capalldubh]

Thanks so much, Ambatt!

Jackson does indeed seem to have the pangare gene - I looked carefully today - his muzzle and around his eyes are quite pale, which is a bit of a startling contrast to the rest of him (blindingly bright bay - copper in the sunlight). He is also paler under elbows, and has the funny blond hairs on his tail and lightening the black points on his legs.

It's the "wild donkey" colour? That's funny, coz my pet name for him is "Donkey ears" :) How on earth do NR people get good pictures unaided? As soon as I produce the camera, he immediately stops posing, droops his ears like a donkey, and starts approaching to get a carrot :rolleyes:

I will keep trying through, because I think he's an interesting colour given this discussion - looks like an Exmoor with freakishly long legs :D

[old_woman]

I am not sure if dun is dun in the Exmoor as it doesn't really fit in with true dun colouration unless it dun with A+ or even another variant.

I would love to see a picture! BTW I was looking at a German website of endangered breeds of domestic animal and in their "standards" of the Exmoor pony in Germany, GREY was mentioned as being approved ????!!!!!

[Afellpony]

Never seen a grey Exmoor in my life (not a purebred anyway). The only colour you could describe as grey would be the mealy muzzle!

[old_woman]

Never seen a grey Exmoor in my life (not a purebred anyway). The only colour you could describe as grey would be the mealy muzzle!

That is scarcely grey. It is beige, fawn or ecru, perhaps - but not grey.

[Afellpony]

If it is beige/fawn it's a really funny colour beige or fawn. I'd describe all my Exmoors' muzzles as a sort of a 'grey-ish/ash colour. I think we'll just have to beg to differ on this one as different peeps have different perceptions.

[KateWooten]

Aha ! so it's a separate gene altogether ? Afellpony, why do you ask if capalldubh's bay horse has connemara in him ?

I was asking recently about the colour of Tiny Pony. The closest I could get that time was 'some sort of dun' ... but she's that very exmoor-y primitive colour :

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/TinyPony/4-1.jpg

She was sold as a Connemara, which I dismissed as just not true, since she is only 13hh, and finely built.

[notpoodle]

sorry i dont know anythinng about genetics but .... i stood next to the stuffed przewalski at the natural history museum once and had a good look :) decided they are very much like exmoors in build and stuff ... mind you, i tell people angel is a neanderthal/flintstones pony :D

Julia
x

[chev]

Sorry! Missed this til now!

PS: The Exmoor is not 'regular' dun. They are the primitive wild horse yellowy dun. Whereas 'regular' dun is a khaki kind of colour! I think you'll find Prewalski's horse was also a yellow dun.

Hmm. 'Regular' dun is a gene that dilutes the base colour - *all* base colours, be that black, bay, chestnut, palomino.... there is no *one* shade of dun. What colour a dun horse is visually depends on what it's base colour is; grullos (black dun) will be sort of brownish, greyish, kind of colour; red dun (chestnut dun) will be flat, pale red (like a muted pale chestnut); bay dun will vary from muted reddish to quite pale yellowy brown in body colour.

What about this dun colour that in Exmoors is apparently different to "regular" dun? But which regular dun? There are lots of duns ... Is it dun with added mealy factor?


Przewalski's horse has a bay base, and only bay. On top of that bay they carry several types of markings very commonly found in wild or feral horses, all designed to make the horse less visible to predators. The first is mealy or panagre. That lightens the soft areas, the muzzle, and the legs; the effect is to lighten the areas of the horse that would naturally be in shadow, and 'flatten' the horse in the landscape, making him less visible. The second is countershading (often seen in Exmoors - it's the shading of darker coat over the spine and upper ribs) which does exactly teh same job as panagre, but in the opposite way - by darkening the parts of the horse that would normally be well lit. Horse becomes even less 3-D as a result. They also show 'wild bay' characteristics; the reduced black at the points, in particular the legs - again, markings designed to break up the outline of the horse and make him less visible.

Przewalski's horses are dun. They are bay dun, and carry the dorsal stripe, daker mask, zebra stripes and dilute body that dun causes - again, 'primitive' markings designed to camouflage the horse in its natural surroundings. They also have lighter 'frosting' at the side of the crest and the dock, similar to Fjord horses.

The picture on this page (http://ecology.info/takhi.htm) shows the dun quite clearly. They are seen in several shades of dun, but always bay based.

Exmoors are undoubtedly very similar in respect of panagre and countershading. They too are always bay based (if non-UK Exmoor societies are registering grey ponies... I'm afraid it shows that non-Exmoor blood has been introduced at some point). They also show examples of wild bay - although not consistently. But... while 'dun' is an accepted term and ponies are registered as 'dun', I'm not sure the dun dilute is really the cause of 'dun' Exmoors. For one thing, very few conform to the way dun dilutes coat. Even fewer have true dorsal stripes - a huge number have sort of pseudo-dorsal stripes, but that's usually a result of countershading rather than dun.

The difficulty is that while there clearly is a dun gene, that causes primitive markings, it's been shown that horses left feral will actually slowly develop these same 'dun' (primitive) markings over time anyway. That does not mean, though, that they are 'dun' in teh sense of carrying a dun gene.

Hence the theory that dun is perhaps not the action of a single simple gene, but rather, like sabino, a complex of genes that produce different effects in combination. So there may well be a gene (or more than one) within 'dun' that produces all the primitive markings, that has atavistic tendencies - but one thing it doesn't appear to do is cause dilution of base colour. So perhaps that suggests there is a related, but distinct gene that causes the dilution?

So... I believe that dun in Exmoors is distinct from 'regular' dun because it isn't actually dun. It's a combination of primitive markings (also called dun factor markings... no wonder people get confused!) on a bay base that results in shade and colour mistaken for dun.

I hope that makes more sense than I think it does reading it back!

[chev]

Lots and lots of Exmoor pony pictures! (http://www.exmoorponysociety.org.uk/pictures.php)

You can see how some have very few primitive markings, while some are very very heavily camouflaged.

But none show the dun dilution in body....

[chev]

And this is my all-time favourite dun site - the definitive guide to all things dun! :D

Dun Central Station (http://www.duncentralstation.com/) - have a look at their pages on markings that mimic dun, and false duns. It shows why so many horses who are not dun get mistaken for dun!!

[KateWooten]

So, chev, am I right in thinking my Tiny Pony is showing signs of 'panagre' - or what I think of as 'mealy gene' .. in the muzzle, and the light beige of her inner, upper legs ?

Does 'panagre' also account for the dark points, or is that more likely the effect of 'dun' ?

[chev]

Difficult Kate - she has the flat looking dilute coat colour of a dun... but she doesn't have much else that would suggest dun. She doesn't even appear to have a dorsal stripe from that angle - do you have any pictures of her that clearly show her spine?

From that pic she actually looks like she might be a sooty buckskin, and yes, she does definitely show panagre - mealy muzzle and soft parts are typical of that gene.

[jowyles]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j236/Jowyles/100_0194.jpg
This is Dexter - he has panagre AND wild bay AND sabino! He is shire x Haflinger

[old_woman]

Sorry! Missed this til now!

...
I hope that makes more sense than I think it does reading it back!

Thanks SO much! It makes perfect sense and clarifies quite a lot for me ...