The miseducation of Tiny Pony

[KateWooten]

Tiny Pony is about 6, and has lived all her life in a training barn for the hunter circuit. She's not all that tiny - about 13hh, and is stunning to look at and a great mover. I believe she wold have been treated as a potential high dollar pony.

Of her history, I know she was brougth to TN from the Florida barn where she was started under saddle. I believe she was jumped by children there, and shown walk-trot and crosspoles.

I bought her as an uncatchable wild thing out of a field from a local hunter barn. She arrived there in part-ex for a smaller, and very reliable hunter pony. Over the few weeks she was there, she was ridden a handful of times, by the owner's daughter who is a very comfident smaller rider aged about 12. She had her jumping, but never relaxed. They also had another trainer come in to look at her. A full sized man, who got bucked off, so he got back on and 'sorted her out'. She wasn't ridden again. Too dangerous for kids to ride.

She was very hard to catch for them, but once caught she's very obedient. I know they had her in cross-ties, one time while the kids 'spent a couple of hours grooming her'. It took 5 people to get her bridle on apparently.

Well, I got her home and just let her chill out for a couple of days. Then had her teeth looked at - no problems. Once I started handling her, her deep troubles became apparent. She is scared out of her wits at everything. She firmly believes that no good can come from an encounter with people. She was also thick with rain rot, so I can only imagine the pain she was in after 2 hours of 'grooming'. I've sorted the rain rot out, and she is slowly getting used to the idea that being petted, rubbed and scratched won't hurt.

So, fast forward to her 'training' with me. I started by catching her, and then walking away - catching is something she hates. Next we moved up to work in the round pen. Loose schooling - the whole join-up thing, didn't work for us. She would just have run and run for hours, and I'm not up for that. So, close-in work in the round pen, on a leadline. That goes fine, she's very responsive to being sent away, she puts up with desensitisation ... but she doesn't chaneg. She doesn't get any calmer, she still jumps out of her skin at the slightest touch, at the sound of anything behind her. She's just basically terrified when she's around people.

I strongly believe she's been taught that on no account do you hurt a person - with a view to her becoming a kid's pony. She never invades your space, she doesn't nuzzle for treats, even when they're offered she thinks twice about taking them, and even when she has a carrot in her mouth, she's sometimes too scared to chew it, and I have to stroke her lips to get her to chew. :(

I started riding her - probably foolishly - and she's great under saddle, as long as nothing spooks her ... but if she spooks, she can quickly get to a point of complete panic at which point she bucks like crazy and then stands there shaking all over waiting for her beating. I think she's so concerned to avoid a beating that it leaves her with very few options, and this is what makes her panic.

I also think that normal 'pressure-release' isn't working with her. If I ask her to move over, I put 'pressure' on her ... but when she complies, I need to drop pressure back to zero. For her, me even being there is almost unbearable pressure. I can't drop back to zero, well, not without leaving the pen, and going back home !

So .. here's where we're at. Basically no progress to date. I can usually catch her quite quickly, she does not like to be with me. I work with her most days - usually just where she is most comfortable - in the field with the others. I've started clicker training with her, and she responds to that quite well. Very occasionally she will come near me and snuffle my pockets.

What are your thoughts ? Timescales ? Should I just keep on doing little ten inute ground sessions as often as I can ? Low stress ? Should I bite the bullet and get some hours in the saddle - hope we can bond that way ? Should I give up and keep her as a pasture ornament ? Should I extend my ideas of how much downtime she needs without any training ? Should I try to get a regular routine going .. or should I accept that chilling with ehr Uncle joePony and her stroppy Aunts is all good, and stop worrying about working her every day ?

[Nik-n-Kia]

I think what your doing is wonderful and it sounds as though she might be getting slightly used to you now.

I would keep up the work that you've been doing as you said that she sometimes nuzzles and that must be some progress!!!

She sounds like a right project and I wish you both well!!!

Nikki xxxx

[alwaysfallingof]

Poor, poor little girlie. She sounds like a sweetheart.
It's a hard one. Part of me is thinking that the low stress option might be best, considering how extremely nervous she is. Time, more time, and staying within her comfort zone for a while might be a good thing. You said that she's learning that petting won't hurt, so even just catching her, giving her a carrot, stroking her neck and walking away again?

I think you might have hit on something when you said that zero pressure for her would be with you not there. So...what if when working with her in the field you walked away when she gave a correct, calm response?

It sounds like you're doing a fantastic job with her...and tbh you should just follow your instincts. If you think pressure and release isn't working, then don't do it. She may get to a point some day when she's able to cope with it, and then you can take it from there. I'm sure you'll know.

How long have you had her? How long has it taken you to get this far?

Best of luck:)

[julia gulia]

Honestly Kate? I would work her the way you would any other horse. You can't change what has happened to her in the past..but you can prove to her through patient and consistent training that things are now different and that pain and punishment will never follow a mistake. Horses are so forgiving and eventually..I think she will relax and look to you for direction. Have you tried teaching her to spook in place when she is scared? That's probably what I would work on with her as her fear seems to be what is causing most of her problems. It doesn't sound like she knows what to do when scared...she certainly won't turn to a human for help at this point as it sounds like they are the ones who caused her fear in the first place. She is lucky to have you...if anyone can help her to trust again? It's you:)

[neen]

Poor Tiny Pony. There's a lovely life waiting for her but she's too scared to choose it.

If you leave her in the field to pootle, she's never going to have an opportunity to learn that people can be nice. That's okay, but then she'll never get hugs and carrots and play little pony jokes on people, and she'd be missing out a bit there. It's not the end of the world for a tiny pony to miss out on those things, but all her herd mates will be getting them, and there'll be a part of the herd (you) that she's not sure about. So that would be a shame.

I'm wincing a bit at the thought of getting on and riding her through it, to be honest. She might put up with it, but I don't think you'll bond that way.

I'd keep on doing what you can, when you can, even if it's just a tiny amount and you don't seem to be getting anywhere. At least then you're giving her the opportunity to make friends. Whether she does or not is up to her, and so is the timescale, unfortunately. If you weren't planning to sell her on one day, and were going to keep her indefinitely, how would you feel about it? Do you enjoy the little pootling about sessions that never seem to result in anything, or are you frustrated by them? If you don't enjoy them in themselves, then it might be best to go back to the first option (chilling in the field with her horse buddies) because iif NEITHER of you is enjoying it, or has any hope, what's the point? But if you do quite enjoy it, and you can accept that she might never accept you as a friend, but you're generous enough to keep offering her the opportunity, then I'd keep gently trying. Because imagine if she does respond, wouldn't it be the best thing ever?

[KateWooten]

hmm... some good thoughts there to ponder ...

SO, how about if I make a conscious effort to only go to her, click and carrot, and then retreat ... and then do that as often as I can for a few days ... then how should I decide if it's a good time to push on again ? I suppose, I just stick at it, asking no more than that she doesn't leave, until the game is really a non-issue, until she's beginning to follow me as I leave perhaps, or until she's beginning to approach me before I get to her.

It could be a while couldn't it ? I mean, in view of hte depth of her fears, I have to just give her as long as it takes at this level, because pushing her on too fast is just going to make her eyes glaze over and she'll shut down again. Poor Pony

[Lucyad]

Poor tiny pony, she is lucky to have you, despite her terrible start in life. I second (or third..) the softly softly approach. I think just trying to get her gradually towards working with you loose in the feild, so she has the option to leave at any time, would be best, to minimise her stress, and also to allow you to see when she trusts you. I love working with Oscar this way (when daylight and weather allow). He will put up with me for a while (clicker terget training, grooming, general cuddles), and then leave when I get boring!

[julia gulia]

She may surprise you Kate...it may not take as long as you think:) Look on it this way her fears are already there.......you are not causing her fear.... so that is why I would carry on with what you are doing...... the more she accomplishes..the braver she will become especially when she is not punished unfairly. You will know when that breakthrough moment presents itself.....

[Dizzy]

I agree with julia gulia, and work her the way you would any other horse.

My mare's mum, Dizzy had had a dreadful time before my friend got her. My friend bought her from an auction, because she felt sorry for her - she was petrified of people, had feet like soup plates, and not one shoe matched, was dripping with sweat and was literally pooping herself in the ring. When my friend paid for her, she was told something along the lines of her being the third owner in as many weeks.

Anyway, my friend had 2 small kids, and I'd just lost my horse to navicular, so I took her on loan, and my friend helped when she could.

She was very like how you have described Tiny Pony, extremely afraid of human contact, but equally afraid of not conforming in case it evoked a beating. If we were stood next to her and raised a hand to scratch our head she'd stand stock still, head in the air with her eyes blinking furiuosly, obviously relating a raised hand to her recieving a bat.

When we tried to lunge her, her reaction to the sight of the lunge whip was positively heartbreaking, so we didn't use one, we didn't need it, we could literally just point with our hand and she moved. If we pointed at the middle of her tummy, you could see her flesh crawling.

Anyway to cut a long story short, I rode her up to a local RI and asked her help, initailly for riding lessons, as Dizzy was difficult to ride, oddly I had never ever felt unsafe, she was solid in traffic and didn't pull, but she read any leg pressure as an indication to speed up, and then stuck her head in the air and sort of trotted on her front legs, but she dished very badly and cantered on her back ones - it was impossible to ride, there was no rhythym to tune into, and when she started, my bouncing around made her worse, and she'd keep swapping between going hollow or behind the bit.

My RI still says she'll never forget the day we rode up her long (visible) drive - she'd never seen the like before, Dizzy was dishing for england to start, which seemed to inspire all the horses in the surrounding fields, which then inspired her to canter on the spot and fly buck. I also will never forget it - hilarious to look back on, but so frustrating at the time.

When I eventually made it to the yard, progress was made. Within a week we moved in as a livery, and the first thing I was taught, was to ignore Dizzy's insecurities - I couldn't make her trust me, that was a descision she must come to herself. The second was to teach Dizzy to accept being touched all over with my hands - the third was to teach her that a whip is just an extention of my hand and to accept being touched all over with the whip.

On the ground I was act to normally, not to pussy foot around, and ignore the flinching. In the stable, give her hay and muck out around her, ask her to move if she was in the way, praise her. When I took her feed in, ask her to back up, praise and leave.

It worked, but I will say her bad memories never left completely, now and again she'd still flinch, but the tense furiuos blinking did stop.

The problems we had under saddle weren't just hers - it turned out I was far from perfect, and believe me there was alot of frustration, sweat and tears, spent teaching her to accept my legs, without me tipping forward and hanging onto the rien - but we managed eventually, and when we were both balanced she didn't dish.

I owe that little horse so much, I adored her, she taught me so much. She was only 14.1hh, we think Welsh x Arab, and she gave me Breeze. We put her to a QH stallion, Breeze is now 9(and her upbringing hasn't been problem free), but what a cracking mare she is - very like her Mum, but with no baggage.

They can only decide to trust you if they have to deal with you. I am (though I hate to admit it;) am a very accident prone, clumsy person. I am always the one that trips over, or gets a welly stuck in the mud - I've lost count of the times I've tripped and fell into a horse in the field. I've never yet had one shy away. But I'm in the field every day, poo picking, adjusting rugs, checking water buckets and fencing.

Horses are incredibly intuitive and intelligent animals, and are born survivors. Respect thier defense mechanisms, but be yourself.

A couple of years ago, my mare got her tail wrapped up in an electric fencing spring gate. She panicked, took off, and the spring gate stretched to its capicty, snapped and wrapped itself around her - she was petrified and galloped, the spring was wrapped round her front legs, back legs and entwined in her tail. I was away on holiday and it was my friend who had to cope.

She saw there was a problem and caught Breeze, but every time she tried to unravel the spring it reverberated and Breeze took off galloping. Breeze's best friend Rosie (a horse) saved the day - she too was frightened, but herded Breeze into a corner and blocked her path so she couldn't bolt, and stood stock still snorting all the time, until my friend could unravel her.

Rosie has had a tough life, and struggles to trust humans, Breeze was the Boss mare, there were two other horses in the field who had scooted down the field but stood watching.

Apparently every time my friend released a turn, the spring reberverated, Rosie flinched, Breeze pongoed from front to back legs, but Rosie stood firm, and though it was obvious to us when dealing with Rosie on a day to day basis, a large part of her did trust us, she still had her doubts - but that day she knew Breeze seriously needed help, and she over stepped her pecking order in the field and insisted that Breeze listened to her so that my friend could sort her out.

When I got back off holiday, I could tell something had happened to Breeze's tail, as to release her alot had to be ripped out - but when I heard what had happened I was speechless! Amazingly all Breeze had was the odd scratch. but I got my Bowen lass out to check her out, and she put her right.

I know this post is very long winded, but in reality to gain a horses trust all we have to be is firm, fair and consitant all of the time. We can't take away the damage thats already taken place, but by being consistant we can improve thier opinion of us.

Good luck with Tiny Pony, my RI told me to have a picture in my mind of my horses as a beautiful sculpture, and every day chip away at that sculpture, until that picture in my mind is reality - as your goals are achieved the sculpture becomes more beautiful, so your goals change.

You will get there with Tiny Pony, set low goals, achievement is the best inspiration.

[holiday]

We have a pony who is very similar, the people who had him before had him for two years but decided enough was enough, he came to us so so scared but he is gradually learning to trust us, i now have been able to clip him and put a very light rug on him - something totally unthinkable,

We still cant catch him but isnt really an issue for us as he will live the herd and come in to call!!!!

He is still positively terrified in the stable but the previous people spent a long time breaking him to ride and as soon as you put tack on him he is a confident pony and although if you caught his rump getting on he would set off in a bucking fit he is a darling to ride, loves jumping and we take him to competitions and he thinks hes really important, if he is tacked up with someone on you can pat him behind the saddle etc etc, but he struggles when you are on the ground.

I believe he has been caught up somewhere by his tail - he was wild on the New Forest until 4 years and it is his hind quarters he has an issue with ie. brushing his tail or touching his back legs, he is gradually getting better and will let you catch him in the stable - he also loves treats which im a big non believer in titbits but he is the only person on the yard who is allowed them his big help in the equation is he loves his food which if he didnt i dont know how we would have worked around some of his problems!!!!!!!

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/Caroneno/tombrak2.jpg

This is Tommy coming 4th in a prelim with 64.7%

[Afellpony]

You've asked for peeps' thoughts on this pony - so here are mine.
I personally wouldn't do any conventional work at all with this pony. Also it's obvious she doesn't really want to be with human beings at the moment. So, this is what I would do :-
I would leave the pony in the field as she is. I wouldn't attempt to catch her or make any physical contact or eye contact with her at all - but....I would walk across the field several times during the day and ignore the pony. I would walk near to her and generally potter around. I'd do this several times during the day so as become a familiar figure to her but not a threat. When she accepted that, I would, if it were possible remove one or two of her companions and again, continue walking across the field. I would do this until, eventually, she'd have no companions left, just me and the feed bucket. I wouldn't put it on the ground but stand there holding it. If, eventually, she came and took a mouthfull of the food, I wouldn't attempt to touch her, just hold the bucket. I'd do this until she seemed to trust me. Then, one day and I think you know whether the time was right or not, I would go to her with the feed bucket and while she was eating keep talking to her and try to touch her. If she let me, that would be lovely then I'd leave it at that. I'd continue in this way until I could get a head collar on her. I had an Exmoor foal once that hadn't really been handled and this is how I got her to come to me and generally enjoy my compnay. It took a while but in the end we used to go out for long walks. Me leading her out for some very long walks. She loved it. Each pony is different and what worked for Opal and me may not work for you and that very sad pony. I've just typed a very short version but this is how I started with my Exmoor foal many moons ago! She turned out to be a lovely lovely pony.

[teabiscuit]

this is a very difficult and interesting one Kate

i've seen something similar in a horse broken the traditional way, tied up and left to exhaust himself and then a brave (not) soul gets on while the horse is still tied
many horses can cope with this and do get over it
but this horse totally switched off-heartbreaking to see a horse in that mental state, made me cry :o even though physically he was in great shape

he got sold on as the owners felt they couldn't cope so i don't know what happened

i think your suggestion here
SO, how about if I make a conscious effort to only go to her, click and carrot, and then retreat ... and then do that as often as I can for a few days ... then how should I decide if it's a good time to push on again ? I suppose, I just stick at it, asking no more than that she doesn't leave, until the game is really a non-issue, until she's beginning to follow me as I leave perhaps, or until she's beginning to approach me before I get to her.

It could be a while couldn't it ? I mean, in view of hte depth of her fears, I have to just give her as long as it takes at this level, because pushing her on too fast is just going to make her eyes glaze over and she'll shut down again. Poor Pony is perfect

i think it'll take a long time but i think you know that :)

please keep us updated, i reckon your learning curve is going to get huge and i'd love to learn from it myself :)

[Afellpony]

Poor little pony. I'm sure everything will come right for her but it's going to take a very long time. How very sad.

[svenja]

She never invades your space, she doesn't nuzzle for treats, even when they're offered she thinks twice about taking them, and even when she has a carrot in her mouth, she's sometimes too scared to chew it, and I have to stroke her lips to get her to chew. :(

I started riding her - probably foolishly - and she's great under saddle, as long as nothing spooks her ... but if she spooks, she can quickly get to a point of complete panic .


My mare's behaviour was very similar when I first got her. I don't think she was beaten or anything like that, or handled particularly roughly. But she is of a very sensitive breed and temperament which requires extra careful handling, which I don't think she got. She was raced for a year in Akhal Teke races, which means she was also very wary of any contact with her mouth while ridden. Likewise, treats were a thing unknown to her.

I spent a lot of time long-reining and working in hand (free schooling didn't work either, she had massive separation anxiety and became quite distressed, and ran around madly) to get her to respond to my voice. I also took her for long walks in hand and spent loads of time in her stable (often with a good book:) ) for her to get used to me.

I also use a method my old trainer taught me, which I think was developed by Nino Olivera- she used it on her youngsters and on older horses. It involves working the horse in a small circle around you, at a very gentle walk, while holding one of the bridle reins. The idea is to get the horse to go forward when asked, with a slight tap of the hand or schooling whip (I used the hand) just behind where the girth would be, and then getting them to circle you for a few steps (they need to really use their hindquarters to do that.) Iff the horse gets stressed out, or starts the movement by backing off first, you stop, calm them down, and try again. If they go forward well, you stop after a couple of circles and make a fuss of them.

After a while, the horses should be very relaxed, and work with its head lowered, with very little contact on the mouth. The idea is to do this for 5 or 10 minutes, NEVER longer -it works their back muscles, and is great for developing trust. After a few sessions with my mare she was following me around like a lamb after the end of the session.

As for treats, apples have turned out to be her favourite thing and she will now pull a huge variety of faces to get one.:D She will nibble on a sugar cube, but turns her nose up at special manufactured hose treats.:rolleyes:
She never mugs me but now loves nibbling my hair (she wouldnt go near me at first) to ask for a treat (which is particularly good on the hairdo....)

I was going to try clicker training with her as she is still a nightmare with the farrier, although she lifts up her feet for me to pick them out. I go to the yard about 4 times a week (my job is too demanding to manage more), do you think that's enough time to work with the clicker? And how did you resolve the reward issue with your pony, if she wasn't very big on treats? How quick was she to understand the concept?

[mayoguinness]

Poor little thing! Sounds like your doing great work with her and once she trusts you I'm sure she will be great! Maybe doing a few Natural Horsemanship ground games - liberty work to help get her trust in you and spending lots of time in the field with her juts being near her without touching her or trying to catch so she knows you just want to be her freind her might help! I wouldn't try riding her untill she trusts you completely! Good Luck :)

[alwaysfallingof]

hmm... some good thoughts there to ponder ...

SO, how about if I make a conscious effort to only go to her, click and carrot, and then retreat ... and then do that as often as I can for a few days ... then how should I decide if it's a good time to push on again ? I suppose, I just stick at it, asking no more than that she doesn't leave, until the game is really a non-issue, until she's beginning to follow me as I leave perhaps, or until she's beginning to approach me before I get to her.

It could be a while couldn't it ? I mean, in view of hte depth of her fears, I have to just give her as long as it takes at this level, because pushing her on too fast is just going to make her eyes glaze over and she'll shut down again. Poor Pony

Sounds good. In terms of when it's time to start increasing what you're asking of her again...you said that "I can usually catch her quite quickly".

How about waiting until you can always catch her immediately? :) Then you have some more objective evidence that she's not seeing you as such a threat, and that she's accepting that good things happen while you're around.
I'm sure you'll be able to tell. And in terms of timescale...what about accepting that it will be a number of years before you can progress, completely take away the pressure of a timescale. You might find it takes quicker than you imagine.:)
Good luck

[Pink's lady]

Poor little mite:(

From what you've said, i sounds like her 'giveing to pressure' is perfect, even over-sensitive. Wth such a frightened pony the very last thing you want to do with her is push her away more.

I would stay away from all negative reinforcment ('giving to pressure') go down the positive re-inforcement route and bribary. They make her WANT to be near you. Right now it will be for food but you can wean her off that later.

I would first remove the other horses from the field (otherwise she'll prefer to be near then than you) and give her time to settle aout it. I'd then go into her field with a couple of carrots and click and reward if she comes up to you, or even near you (throw her a carrot). Progress to her standing near by and eventually following you. Forget about the halter - if she's not following you willingly she's not ready. Then start grooming her loose.

I would guess it'll take at least a couple of months for her to ejoy being nea humans.

[KateWooten]

Wow, what a lot of great thoughts and wonderful stories. I feel quite inspired by you svenja, holiday and Dizzy, thankyou so much for taking the time to write out your experiences.

About this clicker training, svenja ... I think it is a nice technique. Tiny Pony really does enjoy treats - I use tiny pieces of carrots - she is a typical greedy pony at heart, it's just sometimes she'll hold the carrot too scared to chew. Mostly she's fine. I think she might have been taught never to eat when people are doing things to her - you know, to avoid that 'pony pulling towards grass' scenario.

I've just been doing it a couple of days with Tiny, and I did it for 3 sessions with Summer too (Big Fat Stroppy Mare) specifically to get her over our trailer-loading flashback hump. It worked wonderfully with Summer, and I think it is working with Tiny too. It is definitely something you can play with on an occasional basis. The reason I say that, although of course, all training is better if consistent ... clicker training particularly associates a very distinct sound with correct action. The click works because it is so obvious that it gives you time to fumble around and find a treat. It has a lovely side-effect of making the handler really focus on the exact moment to release. When I did it for Summer, I totally ignored the trailer for a few days, we just did NH-type groundwork exercises that she is good at already, to associate the click with 'good behaviour'. Then the trailer loading became a very easy, and a much more fun day - because it wasn't about the scary old trailer loading that she had bad memories of, it was more about her showing me how well she could sidepass up and down the side of the truck, in order to get clicked.

I think you could do the same for farriery. Start clicking for something she's good at, then move up to clicking for very very simple things with the feet - just picking them up for example. Then use the clicker for games with her feet - 'put your front foot on this bucket' etc etc. I do take the clicker with me for the trimmer to work on Tiny, and it is a big help. It kind of reduces the problem from 'Get through this whole farrier session without freaking' to 'lift this foot here' CLICK, 'move this foot forward' CLICK. It's just a device, I know, and good training works the same way to reduce a problem like that .. but it's a nice device for a scared horse because it introduces the positive into what has become a negative situation.

Given that I just wrote a whole novella on positiveness ... I do have some positives with Tiny ...
- when I went to catch Tiny yesterday, after a 5 day break from any sort of 'work', she ran around for a minute or two .. and this was not 'usual' .. so we have come a little ways from when she was totally uncatchable at first. Oh - she's been with me I think 10 or 12 weeks or so.

- when I feed the others in the morning, I do get the chance to move her back and forward, in return for a tiny nibble of feed, and she hasstarted to push her luck a little there, she will come up and try to get at the feed bucket - and she'll also step back, and step forward on a light cue from the other side of the fence.

- when I worked with her yesterday in the field, taking a stick with me for the first time, she did in the end work quite calmly, circling at a walk, and responding to a light raise of the stick without panicking.

So, there is progress. Incidentally, it seems it must be damaging to our relationship that I feed the other horses but not her ? What do people do about tiny ponies that don't need feeding ? She just looks at me wondering what she needs to do to get fed like the big girls do (I might be anthropomorphising terribly there ! )

[teabiscuit]

give her some carrots or some chaff with little nutritional value then she thinks she's having what they're having

i personaly don't think you're anthropomorphising, horses see and notice - thats one of the things that they're best at

i wouldn't like to guess that this will make her feel left out, but i'd give her something anyway just in case it did :D but i'm a big softy with 'em :D

[Pink's lady]

What do people do about tiny ponies that don't need feeding ? She just looks at me wondering what she needs to do to get fed like the big girls do

I would use it as a golden oppertunity to reinforce the clicker and the 'nice things' idea. Have a bowl of plain and borng chaff, damped down with sugar-beett water (or apple juice) and hand feed her it whilst the others eat.

[KateWooten]

So, yesterday when I went up to her, she just stood there, nice and relaxed. petted her and walked away. She didn't follow me ... but she did follow me just with her nose and eyes ... he focus was on me. So, I picked up a rope and put it over her, and she didn't leave. So, I went ahead and caught her,. and did some NH type ground work with her. She's quite a responsibility on the line, because she will instantly try to go wherever she's sent. Not in a 'trying to please me' way just yet, but in a not wanting to get beaten way still.

So, I sent her up and down some banks, and asked her to stop and halt various odd places - top of the bank, down in the ditch etc etc.

Then, back at the top of the hill, we circled a bit. I noticed she won't trot when asked to, whilst being led. So, I was circling her (lunging) to establish a clear trot cue. On the right rein, she would always halt at one particular part of the circle .. just when heading towards the fence. It was odd because I was having to use quite a bit of persuasion to get her going again - even tapping her shoulder :eek:

So, I decided to change the game, and instead start 'sending' her through a small gap, starting with a large gap between me and the fence, and working towards a smaller one. Which forced me to look at the distance between me and the fence during the circling game :slaps head: ... Poor little mare, no wonder she was stopping, looking alarmed and then scurrying through the 3 ft gap with her little pony head on the floor (please don't him me as I go past) !

So, more games this afternoon - it's looking more positive.

[julia gulia]

Yeah!!!!! Sounds like things are going great :) You must be well pleased;)

As for the not wanting to trot whilst being led? she may have been punished for doing that at some point....perhaps some misguided ground training??? I once saw a girl ask her horse for forward movement whilst being led..he gave her forward movement..which is what she asked for...but it was a trot instead of a walk so she beat him......:o I guess he got the wrong answer to the question but...what was the question???

[KateWooten]

I am sure she's been beaten for it, and for getting ahead while being led too. It's such a stupid, short sighted way to train, honestly I'm spitting mad about it now, because it's such an adorable little pony, and full of confidence and spirit. She'd be an absolute wow in the show ring if she hadn't had all her try knocked out of her. And isn't showing supposed to be about that ? Showing the horse so it looks as best it can ?

So, today I mixed in everyone's ideas, and they are all turning out a treat. First off, walking up to her, clicking and petting and walking away. The others all love this too. Before long I am surrounded by big girls all stepping back, turning their shoulders away, or disengaging in the hope that the next click is for them :D (neen - remember Del backing up when Fluke couldn't ? 'look Fluke, it's easy, like this...')

So, then when she's turning towards me on approach, then I went and caught her. We went down and did a few obstacles in the lower paddock on the long line. She's so easy to send... but hates being sent through a small space (6ft or so) ... she also hates if I stand on anything - mabye I'm taller and more intimdating ? She's terriffied ofthe mountiing block. I sent her in a figure of eithg parelli-style, around some cones, then we did a couple of jumps and other stuff. On the way back, I took her halter off, and walked up the hill, carrying the bag of carrots. She stuck with me all the way. That bribrey thing works a treat.

I'm wondering now if in fact she's ever been really beaten, or if she's just so sensitive to cues and body language that she just gets upset when people 'shout' to her. I spent quite a while with the whip - it was a stock whip - shorter than a lunge whip - about the length of a NH type stick + string, and she was fine with it over her back and legs. So, it's not the stick she's scared of, or any particular piece of equipment - it's me !

[Dizzy]

What progress! You didn't say whether you've worked her using the whip. If you haven't, and have just got her used to being touched with it, its you she trusts as she is reading it as an extention of your hand.

Holiday, you must be so proud - what a cracker!

[KateWooten]

Tiny Pony has been doing well. We've been working on the ground, doing all sorts of playing in the paddock, over obstacles ... she's very brave, and loves to jump - very very responsive and fun to work with. So, today we were back in the round pen, and had done all the 'work'.. we are consolidating voice commands, and doing a little in-hand stuff from the Richard Hinrichs' book in side-reins ... well, we'd done all that, and were relaxing by the 'mounting block'. It's an upturned box .. I am ashamed to say that I can no longer vault onto a Tiny Pony from the ground :( Not that I was about to vault onto her, you understand, we're just keeping that in mind for hte future.

Well, we were getting deep into a cuddle, and she was really relaxing, and I was rubbing her all over ... this is the closest we've ever felt ... and then 'SNAP' a huge electric shock ! She has this wooly fur, and when I pet her normally, you can hear it crackle ever so slightly.... where I'd been rubbing her today, the static must have built up so much ... honestly, it was a bigger shock than you'd get from the electric fence :(

So, this might go a long way to explaining why such a nice, bold friendly little pony is so terrified of contact, hates to be groomed, doesn't trust easily ... every time she lests go around people, she effectively gets punished for it, with an electric cattle prod. Poor little one.

Any ideas as to how to lessen this problem ? Can I 'earth' her ? How about some sort of anti-static spray ? I'm sure show-sheen must have some kin of an anti-static effect since it gets the coat to lie flat. I could just clip her ... but that wouldn't work long-term if she's going to be a kids' pony. How about a job lot of Bounce fabric sheets, and then put her through the dryer ... I'm sure there would be one big enough at the laundromat - she's only a tiny pony ...

[EquineGal]

I think you can just rub the Bounce sheets on her.
We've tried it with my furball of a dog and it actually worked.

[Rips]

I'm sure there would be one big enough at the laundromat - she's only a tiny pony ...


:p your posts are brilliant. I've no ideas for the static shocks but it sounds like shes coming along. Has she got shoes on? That wouldn't help. I think she would be more 'grounded' barefoot.

Poor Tiny Pony, it will be really interesting to read the rest of her story :)

[entreat]

Wow Kate - you're doing wonderful work.

I too have a challenging pony. a near unhandled station pony that has only ever been tormented when caught. at just over two years old, she was being cornered & caught, saddled, bridled and ridden - by ridden I mean a girl sat on her while the other girls chased her with a lunge whip to see her canter & buck.

So her owner (not the person doing the riding, and was horrified when found out) at the end of her tether had to give her away. I was stoked when I got her. she's a great little pony.

I've had her since Xmas, and have been able to touch her twice. both with food bribery on the nose. But one of the big breaks I had with her was laying down in the yard. She had no a clue what I was doing! so she came over to find out. left her food to see what I was up to. It was awesome!

Join up hasn't worked either... I tried it once and it really damaged our relationship & she was skittish for 3 days afterwards. I think I'll give clicker training a go as she adores carrots.

As far as the static goes, I use a mane detangler on Mouse's tail & it seems to work.

[oldbushy]

Kate
I have only read the replies quickly as I am running out of time before work. If there's no rush with this pony then I'd put her with the others and forget riding her brushing her etc. Let her see how you interact with the others for months. Can you let her loosely follow you out on a ride with one of the others. Just stopping to call her to catch up here and there. I can take bubby out with Alf not even on the rope and he just follows along looking at the scenery. Occassionally trotting past then stopping and waiting for us to catch up. I talk lots when we're out and ask them what song they'd like me to sing Usually a Kelly Clarkson one. It blocks out spooky noises. Let her wander in and hang around when you are doing things with the other horses. It gets her knowing the routine and once she sees what goes on at this farm and feels she can trust in this she will calm down. I say Oh hello you little sticky beak got kissy get a kiss then walk away. What ever you are calmly doing with this little character she's tensed up and terrified so the message you are trying to convey isn;t even being understood. I've noticed this with Ruffy if he's upset forget it. So as he's getting calmer and calmer he's learning more. Maybe she sees it as terrifying new environment I'm terrified and oh no now what does this new person want from my riding abilities. Just let her chill out for a few months then gradually try one or 2 things in short periods. Hope this isn't too silly Regards Oldbushy

[KateWooten]

Some progress, I think. I caught Tiny Pony yesterday, and sprayed her all over with Pledge :D Ok, not quite ... I ran around in deep mud for 5 minutes before Tiny Pony caught me ... Then she ran round in tight circles around me on her back legs while we did approach and retreat with the spray (and it's noat actually Pledge, it's farnam lazer sheen ... which, at $13 a bottle, I suspect is overpriced Pledge for Ponies) ... we managed to get a few squirts of it somewhere near her, and every time we did, we had some sponge time while I rubbed it in with fingertips. I got most of her neck done, and she let me rub a few drops on her forehead (DH says he gets shocks from her face too :eek: )

So, she feels a huge amount softer already. She has very soft fur, but because of the static, it just doesn't feel cuddly in general, it kind of sticks together and crackles. Now without the static, no crackle, nice furry pony.

Today she let me walk right up to her in the field several times and rub her all over the pledged parts. Not a single crackle. And I was wearing my polyester jacket. (yes, I am that stylish).

So, I'm not going to 'work' with her for a little while (still taking everyone's advice and 'hunches' on board)... I'll just get on with working the others, and wandering up to Tiny occasionally and seeing how she likes me. I'm sure she's going to like me a whole lot better if she can forget that I used to shock her. Poor little mite, can you imagine, it's like everytime she let anyone close, the next thing she'd get a shock like from a cattle prod.

Fingers crossed this time, that this might get at the root cause of her fear of people.

[neen]

Sounds like good news, Kate. Do you think she gets shocks from the other ponies too? Or just from people?

Wandering up to her (and chasing her with the PonPledge occasionally) might be all the "work" she can take at the moment. But it's still worth considering "work", I think.

Keep us posted, anyway -- if the PonyPledge works, I might try doing the cat!

[teabiscuit]

i'm sure you've done a search, but here's a link :D

http://www.static-sol.com/articles/static_shocks.htm#Why%20do%20we%20experience%20static%20shocks?

TinyElectricPony is doing very well, i'm really looking forward to hearing about how you get on with her.

[neen]

That's a really interesting link, teabiscuit. I wonder if using rubber mats in stables would have much of an impact on static generation? Particularly if used without extra bedding on top?

Would anyone bedding on rubber mats care to experiment? :D

[KateWooten]

I hadn't seen that site, tea, but I went and had a read... it was mostly about indoor problems, and has solutions like different carpet etc. But I emailed the guy in charge, with the problem, and suggested some possible routes to try (I dind't include pony in the dryer with some sheets of Bounce) ... and here's his reply ...

It's hard to advise without examining the situation first hand but my guess is
that while brushing her your body is recieving a build-up of static charge.
Eventually when the voltage is high enough a spark and shock jumps to the pony.
Part of the problem is probably if you are wearing highly insulating rubber
wellies, as I imagine you might be.

1) I have no idea whether pony polish would help, but I doubt it.

2) Leather soled boots might well do the trick but I can't guarantee it.

3) The pony is already earthed if she is standing in mud or on concrete. If she
were standing on a synthetic floor that might be different. Those car trailing
straps are probably a waste of money on cars and certainly would be on a pony.

4) I don't recommend the 6 inch nails through your shoes but I like the image...
:-)

It is possible to get "antistatic" or "ESD" work boots - these might do the
trick, but I don't know if they're available as wellies!

Ths is an interesting one - let me know how you get on.

So, it looks like boots for me is going to be the next thing to look at. At the time, I was wearing thin soled jodhpur boots, but they do have rubber soles which isn't helping. I wish I'd kept my old ones now as I could have rigged something out of beaten out bean cans so they were earthed.

The trick with the show-sheen is kind of working. I can stroke her all over in the mornings now, as long as I keep the cuffs of my polyester jacket away... but when I was doing the whole Kel Jeffries thing in the round pen, she was crackling again. I think it's more to do with the air than anything .... I might start each session by spraying her with water instead, just to take the edge of it.

[teabiscuit]

ahh i'm sorry you got no joy, poor electric tiny pony.

[Lot1983]

Is there anyway you could clip her a bit? Even if you don't cut it all off maybe shortening it would help (I would change the polyester jacket too, just in case!)

[Trewsers]

She never invades your space, she doesn't nuzzle for treats, even when they're offered she thinks twice about taking them, and even when she has a carrot in her mouth, she's sometimes too scared to chew it, and I have to stroke her lips to get her to chew. :(



Thats made me fill up:( Poor girl - cannot imagine how she has got to that stage.
Sounds like you're doing well with her btw, I think you're doing fine. I wouldn't stress too much for now, just keep doing steady things.:)

[KateWooten]

:D ... yep, I tried changing into all cotton the first time, but oddly that made no difference, but I'm sure the polyester jacket isn't helping... but it's so warm... and it's so cold out !!

I'm looking into clippers right now actually - I told her old owner what I'd found, and that I was going to clip her neck at least.... and she about fell on the floor laughing ... You're going to what ? Get anywhere near Tiny Pony with Clippers ???... and then you think you're going to get a rug anywhere near her !!

Well, it's all part of our journey together I guess. Yesterday, actually, I wasn't even thinking about the rug issue, but we were in the round pen when Tiny's eyes jumped out on stalks - I looked round and the wind had got under the walking-over tarp and it was billowing up. So we went and walked around dragging the tarp for a few laps (passive retreat kind of thing) ... and then hauled a corner of the tarp up to her ... and by the end she was standing with the tarp draped all over her like a tent. Ahhh. We even practiced what it feels like to have the tarp fall off her as she walks away. I practice that a lot actually, with buckets and chairs and things. It has occured to us that she's terrified of things falling off her - I think she's been over-trained about that - so she worries about the rider dismounting, which makes her tense up, and buck, which makes the rider dismount head first, and then she gets beaten. Poor Tiny Pony.

Anyway, I digress, yes, clipping her neck as soon as the weather gets a bit warmer, and we'll train for that from now, using hairdryers, tins of beans etc etc.

[teabiscuit]

:D ... yep, I tried changing into all cotton the first time, but oddly that made no difference, but I'm sure the polyester jacket isn't helping... but it's so warm... and it's so cold out !!

I'm looking into clippers right now actually - I told her old owner what I'd found, and that I was going to clip her neck at least.... and she about fell on the floor laughing ... You're going to what ? Get anywhere near Tiny Pony with Clippers ???... and then you think you're going to get a rug anywhere near her !!

.

how rude of her, you can't fail to rise to that challenge can you!

you and Tiny Pony have to show all teh doubting Thomases now :p :)

[holiday]

Do be careful putting a rug on her for the first time!!! I didnt even think about it when i put Tommys on the first time, i thought hed get a bit upset then settle, as it happened he nearly killed himself!!!!!!! He still hates it but tolerates it in the stable - and its a very lightweight one, although it did slip for the first time the other day and he didnt panic - he was frightened but let me straighten it - his strap had come undone and hed got it wrapped round his front legs!!!!!!

I still wouldnt turn him out in one as i still believe he would frighten himself with it - his major problem is his hind quarters - that includes his own tail as well which always seems biazzare - he always kicks out at it if he is turned out then tucks his bum underneath him as if something is going to get him!!!!!

Hes out competing again this weekend hes got four tests to do with his little Charlotte child and hopefully we should be reporting back that he has been a star again!!!!! Il let you know!!!! He is just so much more settled and loves the yard routine, hes the most talkative at breakfast and tea time, and is the only one on the yard allowed titbits!!!!! Only if he will come up to you and take them though!!!!!

You sound like your little pony and you are getting it together good luck keep up the good work!!!!!

[KateWooten]

I think I have to give up and admit defeat on this one. Her problems are too deep for me to get anywhere with. After a week of making her a complete priority, spending hours a day with her, massaging her fur with the oils - we've had no hint of a shock for over a week now - but she'sno better. I can't catch her easily, but she does need to be caught each day to be fed (else she drives the other out of their places and eats their oats and she'll founder if she does that) ... still, it can take me half an hour to catch her - and even then only by driving her into an open stall. Working with her is no better. We can spend half an hour desensitizing her to my right hand being raised ... then she'll freak out if my left hand moves. I guess I just can't deal with a pony who is so convinced that everything I do is going to hurt her, when nothing does.

She leads ok, and doesn't really react to new situations, so I'll run her through the sale next month. She's pretty enough - who knows, somebody might have a clue what to do with her next, one things for sure, she hates being around me !

[julia gulia]

Kate....I'm so sorry to hear this :o
Are you sure that you aren't feeling this way because she hasn't progressed as quickly as other horses you have worked with ?

Just like humans ....some horses are "special needs" projects. Their special needs are that they just need much more time to process and understand what is being asked of them. If someone like you is throwing up their hands then....what hope is there for her?

Did you have a particularly bad day with her? How long has she been with you now?

[holiday]

Kate, im so sorry for your pony. Tommy is still impossible to handle from the ground, hes terrified in the stable, at least you can catch yours we can only run him into a stable. Weve ignored the ground problems and after 7 months he is only slightly improved but we will never sell him as he would end up going for meat as even if we explained to someone how bad he is they really wouldnt realise. We manage him and dont do any NH or the like, we treat him as a normal pony pat him if he will let us and just ignore him if he wont. I would assume in another year he will be slightly improved. In another 10 years he maybe be a nice easy going pony!!!!!!!!!

As i promised here are his results from the weekend
Saturday
P4 71.36% 1st Young rider 1st overall
P12 69.60% 1st YR 7th overall

Sunday

P7 65.50% 2nd YR 7th overall
P13 70.41% 1st YR 6th overall

This is with a 12 year old rider on who is reminded every time "Do not fall off!!!!"

Im afraid if it came to a decision with Tommy I would have him PTS rather than have him worried, frightened or pushed from market to market.

Another thought, we found he was worse if turned out and left for a few days, or out with a dominant gelding - so he only goes out for a few hours a week?

Please dont expect miracles with Tiny Pony as it wont happen overnight, like i say weve had Tommy since July and there is only slight improvement, if i tried to desensitize him with hand movements etc he WOULD go backwards in his training i only treat him with a little respect but as normal, we only ever fold his rug to go on him, not throw it on as you would do a normal horse and just take into concideration he IS NOT a normal horse and is treated as such not frightened or made to do something that frightens him!!!!

He would still buck you off if you caught his bum getting on, he would still run away from you if you got unbalanced, and he would be terrified if you fell off when you see his little face concentrating so hard in a dressage test you could cry, especially when you hear the whispers behind saying "Theres another ready made pony!!" Or how happy he looks going round a showjumping course!!!!!!

Im so proud of him and how far he has come in such a short period of time!!!

[Trewsers]

Kate, so sorry to hear things aren't going well with Tiny - I don't have anything constructive to add, just that I hope you change your mind about selling her on - if you can't help her then she might end up with some right numpty and then who knows what would happen? I've no doubt its been difficult for you - sounds like you need ooodles of patience to deal with her - I just really hope you make a "break through" soon. Fingers crossed - keep us posted.

[teabiscuit]

i'm sorry to hear this Kate
i was really hoping you'd work some magic on her


just two points

1. if she were mine, i would seriously consider having her put to sleep rather than pass her on and risk her suffering any more, life has been cruel for her and i'd want to be sure she was at peace at last. if you can't help her don't be so sure anyone else can help her.

2. i'd try longer (easy for me to say) i'd give her 6 months off, concentrate on my other projects, pick up the reins after a long break, before i chucked teh towel in

i have nothing but respect for you for giving her a chance, whatever you decide you've done a lot more than anyone else for her
x

[entreat]

KW, I've found with Star that hand movements are a big no-no. I honestly think she will always be that way, as I also think she'll always be quick to threaten with her hind.

I wish you all the best in you choices & work with TP. She is a special little girl, just like my little Star.

[KateWooten]

Welllll... of course I didn't manage to give up on Tiny Pony ... I was just having a hissy fit. Instead, I took her off-line and gathered some help from a few close e-friends ... and I think *I* have made some progress (on my attitude!)

1) if there's some I 'have' to do with her, catching her each day for feeding etc, and if that's not ideal for her ... then get off my butt and rearrange the facilities to eliminate this ! (neen)

2) get real about how long it will take her, think around the subject, appreciate any little moment of closeness with her (teaB)

3) Progress and confidence is built by concentrating on the things she can do, not on the things she can't. She's different, who knows why. Most horses will pick their feet up for you long before they can be ridden. For some horses, being ridden is eaiser than picking their feet up ! (holiday)

4) quit whining and be positive (JG) (ok, I know, I paraphrased JG outrageously thre - everyone knows she's far, far nicer than to say that to my face :) )

So, I stopped catching Tiny Pony altogether. She spent a few days in her big stable, without turnout, and we did lots and lots of clicker training - really slowly. 4 sessions a day, every day ... we were just laying down our groundrules - mostly my promise to her that I wouldn't try to rub on her or cause her any shocks at all. After that I put her out with the others, but instead of catching her to bring her in, I just go out and call 'Tiny... Tiny....' and point to 'her' stable, and she walks right in. Of course, this exercise is complicated a little because when she gets there the place is usually filled with a silly grey goofball (easy to remove)... or a big bay stroppy thing (slightly less maleable), but we get there.

After a little clickering for fun, and a rest, I've been taking her out to the roundpen but working there very very slowly too. First time, we were doing Kate Farmers' 'waltz'. It's a neat exercise. All these things are basically the same from one trainer to another - there are, after all only so many ways to move each of a horse's feet forward backward left and right - but the emphasis is different in each one. The waltz consists of the same movements as Parelli's circling and Clinton Anderson's Lunging for respect stage one. (I suspect I'll have to buy Perfect manners, or MR's book to know what the moves are called in that regime ...) ... basically you have the horse's full attention, both eyes .. then move her shoulder away, send her forward onto a circle, then disengage the hindquarters so you have both eyes again and start over the other way... shoulders over, walk on, and disengage.

BUT - you do it slowly, calmly, at a walk... and turn frequently - so the horse is walking more of a figure 8 pattern because you cut the circling part so short.

It's neat because you are 'changing eyes' all the time. The difference in Tiny's attitude to me in the stable was very good after just a couple of sessions of this. She stopped freaking out whenever I tried to walk behind or in front of her.

Yesterday we had another great day. Again from Kate F. I took Tiny out the the round pen and let her loose. I'd been hesitant to do this because she races round faster and faster and I lose any connection to her, and the racing just winds her up even more. However, I let her loose and then just watched her as she ran round, and then tried to fall into step with her. This is tricky because if I try to walk a little circle at the middle of the pen, while she walks round the edge, that is too much pressure for her. I had to find a way to follow her movements, stay in step with her, from much further back. Not easy ! However, after a couple of minutes she seemed to calm down enough for me to start walking with her from near the middle.

If she turned to look at me, then I was to step back and go quiet. She did this a lot because she likes to 'pace' the pen like a caged bear, turning to the inside every 3 or 4 panels. As soon as she turned in, I'd step back a ways, then as she carried on I'd fall into step again. Very soon, I was delaying that inside turn, pushing her just a little to walk one more panel, before stepping back and provoking the inside turn.

Very subtlely, we'd gone from me simply following her movement, to me directing it, just a little bit.

There were times doing this that she got tense and trotted off, but I found if I left enough of a space, and trotted behind her, that I was able to stay in step.. and then head to the far side of the pen to 'head her off' ... and by making myself slow and calm by the time she reached me again, she would slow and calm ... I'd immediately step back, and we'd carry on walking in step again as though nothing happened.

Maybe 45 minutes into this game, I started turning her in circles - provoking the inside turn, then pushing her eye to complete the circle. That was really fun because in drawing her off the rail to start the circle, there were two or three steps where she walked towards me, which put me in a great position to start extending those steps, and eventually she walked right to me.... within petting distance, but she'd leave if I made any move.

When she left, I'd fall in step with her again. At the end, I was able to walk with her absolutely in step, at her shoulder, almost touching. And then she'd stop and look at me. That was pretty cool. We tried testing whether she was hooked on or not - we walked around together off the rail, and did some disengages and turns. She's hooked on for a few turns, then leaves. But it's no big deal because we just fall into step again and walk round some more.

Hmmmmmm ... well if you read this far, now you're truly bored ... just walk, walk, walking around ... but it was suprisingly unboring. In fact I'm really looking forward to repeating it all later today ...

[teabiscuit]

how did you get on?

she sounds very intelligent, is she?

its fascinating stuff BTW, not in the slightest boring

i'm almost expecting you to say that your next session was not good, as that seems to be the pattern with horses like Tiny Pony - so i'm hoping you're going to prove me wrong with another glowing report :)

[KateWooten]

:D Spot on ! The next short session was perfect - less than ten minutes paralleling her, and then I just knew I could push my butt slightly towards her hindquarters, and initiate her turning in of the track. She stuck right with me round several figure 8s, so I turned her loose and we walked back to the barn together.

But of course the next session went horribly wrong ! Lots of her freaking out, galloping about, me getting frstrated etc. But at least I can see what I did wrong ... she was so easy at the start that I reached out and put a hand on her neck, she moved, and we got that ominous fur crackling thing ... so I effectively told her again that sometimes, at random, when she's doing everything right... there's going to be this shock on it's way.

Well, we found some good points to end on (finally) ... then being over ambitious yet again, I thought it would be a good idea to always halter her at the end - as a way of getting her to look forward to being haltered. So that took another 15 minutes !

Ah well ... forward and back, forward and back ... it certainly helps to accept that !

[Lili & Morgan]

Woaw, what a grand job you are doing with her! Poor thing she sounds like she had a real hard time to become the way she is :mad: :confused:

It is a lot for her to help her.

I really enjoy your training journal. But I think you will need lots of time, as another poster says at least 6 months for her to have a break and to "forget" a lots of things ...

[KateWooten]

A couple of pics from today ... mostly just to keep me inspired ... sometimes she's such hard work ... (but worth it !)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/Feb1.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/fullFlight.jpg

[oldbushy]

Kate I'm not completely sure of your set up here. Are these your own paddocks and your own horses only. Although I'm not experienced if this is all your own place I'd be going down with the carrot giving her the treat then NOT catching her. Just have a quick chat about the weather etc. then walk off and see the other horses. I would rest riding her altogether for a while. Do you jump on your horses and ride them up to where you are going to saddle them. If so see if she wants to follow you up there. " Are you coming? OK We'll see you later then" She will eventually. I tend to think don't overcrowd or rush her. It sounds as though you have already made a lot of progress. One thing I find, my paddocks surround the house so if I hear the horses charging around for any reason they are upset I can step out the back door and talk to them. "Whats going on It's OK just a bit of thunder it's alright" and I find talking to them seems to really reassure them.
I wouldn't do drastic things like moving the other horses, just let her have some stability she can cling to without the human (to her) taking away anything she finds comfort in or playing psychological games. Just let her have quiet time to consider the flavour of the grass, which way the wind comes from, what noises are blown across in the wind.
Once she starts coming up to you for her treat in the field then maybe potter around in the paddock fixing something so that if she is inquisative she can come and watch. After she has chilled for a few weeks let her hear you singing a song or whistling to yourself as you go about your daily tasks.
Then when she starta to come over to you catch her every 2nd time and maybe take her up to the schooling yard for a walk. Do some small task with her or have a very quiet 5 minute ride then end it on a good note reward her and have a nice walk back to the field and a goodbye. I believe to continue on when she is still so anxious she's not even going to notice whats going on around her, It's like once you have a todler screaming hysterically and there eyes look glazed over and far away you have to wait till they calm down till you can reason with them or show them it's ok. Please keep us posted how you progress.

[Kate F.]

Hi Kate!

I'm delighted to hear you're making progress! It will take a long time with this one, I think, but it sounds like you're getting some breakthroughs! :) :cool:

Keep us all posted!

Kate (The other one!)

[Peanut]

So glad to hear you are making progress, Kate - she needs you so much. What wonderful pictures.

[teabiscuit]

she's so very pretty

and she looks like she's trying so hard over that jump bless her

[julia gulia]

Oh...but she is so, so pretty:D She's got one of those faces!!!!! :) :) :)
You are doing an amazing job with her Kate!!!!

[Lot1983]

Just to make you feel better, I got a static shock from my horse this weekend (Twice in the same spot), it's never happened before but he did have a different rug on when I bought him in.

I love tiny pony, she so gorgeous and such an unsual colour :D :D

[KateWooten]

This whole 'MovieMaker' thing has got under my skin :) Since realising I had the software all along, there's no stopping me ! Here's Tiny Pony and a silly video ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNxPIKS9M8o

:D


oldbushy - yes - I've been incorporating quite alot of your thoughts into our daily routines .. . and it is paying off so well :) I've figured out how to organise the day so that she can be interacted with - but at no point does she ever 'need' to be caught or touched. She is so cooperative - she really seems to know that I understand. Since the very first day I stopped trying to catch her, I only have to find her and call her over, and point to 'her' stable, and she walks straight in, even stopping to wait if there's a big fat mare needing to be removed first :) She's very smart.

We've done a lot of walking round and round and round the round pen, in step... she finds it quite relaxing .. and eventually she falls into step with me, and we practice inside turns and circles together on the softest cue we can manage. I've long since stopped trying to 'desensitize' her to things - she spooks quite enough without me trying to provoke it, and she's getting slowly calmer.

I do spend quite a lot of time in the paddock with them - there are 3 others, all mine, and they're right outside the house - so we're ideally set up for me to just go out and fool with one or other of them a few times a day - and she sees that.

And another thing that happened - which is exactly what's in your post - a the neighbour's big dog came over and barked at joePony ... he and Rosie were galloping about all tails and manes ... and I was able to walk right out between those two and have them come and stand by me for protection as I ran the dog off. The others - well Rosie and Joe anyway - do see me as someone they can rely on to protect them - and Tiny is beginning to see that too.

I'm sending her in to her stable twice a day so that she can get fed like the big girls do. It's a bit awkward because of course, she's a tiny Pony and far too fat ... but it's better to have her in eating something nice, than out and being shooed away from the big girls' oats !

[Ms Kitty]

I only just came to this thread, and I must say you are doing a good job! :)

Just as a comparison, I had a mare that had been whipped to the head so badly she had scabs on her face and upper neck when we bought her (the previous owner actually admitted this, I felt like strangling him :mad: ). She would not let anyone get anywhere near her head, putting a bridle/headcollar on was only succesful if you were fast enough and didn't touch even lightly with your hands. If she got scared she bit and kicked, and dowright attacked you.

It took me 3 whole years of slow work to actually get her to the point where I could comb her front mane without her having a freak attack, and being able to hold her head against my chest while cuddling. And during that time she had also stopped being afraid of people in general, though was still wary around strangers.

I was doing basically the same kind of exercises as you are, apart from the fact that I was unable to work with her on the field (as it was too dangerous too be around her when she was lose). It may take a long while, but trust me when I say that the harder the case to crack, the better you will feel when you finally do! And in the end you have made a one happy pony, nothing beats that! :)

Good luck with TinyPony in the future, she is soooo cute!

Nina x

[KateWooten]

She really is just sooo cute :) I find myself looking through horse catalogs and thinking ... ooh that would look so cute on Tiny :) She's so little and dinky ... awwww... I'm like a broody mom !!

Here's a better shot or two of the jump ... I'm really getting into this Movie Maker thingy - there's so much you can do with it (including taking stills from a video !!)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/jump2.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/jump4.jpg

[julia gulia]

Kate:eek: : You are really, really good at this movie making thingy:p
I love your videos....you are doing so well with Tiny Pony:D
My favourite part???? The flexing and disengaging of those beautiful hindquarters..made me smile like this:D :D :D :D That was grand...you have quite a crew of little diamonds....don't you????:D
I need more vids please:cool: :D

[Lili & Morgan]

Great vid! She is soooooooooooo cute.

Have you noticed that she won't canter on the right track after the jump ? Does she canter well on the right track. Sorry just an idea.

She is gorgeous , what a beautiful electro-static fur :D I have never heard of electrical pony before, but I know that when removing a fleece rug from horses, I used to get electric schock !

Carry on to keep on the progress. Have you go a Vid of Joepony? I'd love to see him :)

[Kate F.]

Hi Kate!

I just watched the video - looks great! I think if I were you, I'd now start holding that one-rein-stop a little longer, and reaching down and stroking her face when she relaxes. She's flexing well, but is still holding a little bit of a brace through her nose, and not completely giving you her mind, so to speak. She's doing the physical exercise, but not the mental one! :D

You'll probably find she gets a bit agitated if you try to hold it for longer, but just build it up slowly. Initially, just hold it until she flicks her eye round to you, then stroke her and release. Eventually she needs to keep her head round there, really soft and relaxed. At that point there's usually a little sigh and a bit of licking and chewing as the jaw relaxes.

Congratulations on the progress! (And on the video!)

Kate

[teabiscuit]

fantastic vid

added to my favourites
well done, she's beautiful

[Peanut]

Just the sweetest, most deserving pony in the world.

[Montana]

Hi Kate,

Just caught up with this thread only to find the first post I look at is the one saying you're thinking of selling tiny pony:eek: So glad when I read the rest of the post - she needs you and you are making such great progress.

It took me 2 months when I got my boy to touch him anywhere other than on his forehead:rolleyes: I had him 'vetted' before I bought him - the vet gave up after an hour, charged me half price and told me his eyesight was good:p:D (had managed to squint at him from outside while he was trapped in a dark stable...). I couldn't even think about backing him for another year, until we'd done epic amounts of groundwork and trust exercises first.

The frustrating ones are always the most rewarding. Even now after 6 years, he's not straightforward by any means, and there are days where I wish I could have a less complicated horse..... But if it came down to it, you couldn't prise me away from him with a very large crowbar and a promise of £1 million:)

[katefarmer]

On the static electricity thing ... not from horse experience, but radio experience - I was once working in studios where a new carpet had been fitted and we were all getting a blast every time we touched any of the equipment. One of the technicians suggested we each tie a length of wire around our ankles and let it trail behind us to earth us - and it seemed to work!

Obviously you don't want to tie a wire round a horse's leg, but you could, for example, lay one inside a brushing boot, with a few inches to trail on the ground, and put it on a hind leg so it didn't get stepped on? (If it should get caught on anything, it would just pull out of the boot - so no danger).You could also try the same thing yourself - the shock may depend, for example, on your rubber soled boots (if they are rubber soled!). Don't know whether it would work in this case - but could be worth a try?

[KateWooten]

Wow, lots of wonderful responses, thankyou !

I should have pointed out on the video - progress is not as good as the video implies ... the ridden parts were taken after she'd been home just a couple of weeks. We treated her like a regular little horse that just needed some confidence, and started riding her. She coped fine with that flexing that was all new to her .. and we went on little rides ... but just after the end of that ridden video was the first time she freaked as I was getting off, and I landed on my head :rolleyes:

She was ridden once after that but it was obvious that she was not coping, and the panic was at best just below the surface.

I will go practice and see what the other two mares do when we flex / stop - I think I know where we're at with them - Rosie will give me her mind heart and soul ... Stroppy Mare might give me the tip of her nose if I'm lucky but her attention is always on looking for somthing to spook at. It will give me something to think about before I'm ready to get back on Tiny - she's only little but the bucking is full size !

I will try that tip about the trailing wire .. it must be me that needs earthing - because unless she's got rubbery feet, she must already be earthed ! I can cut a little piece of the electric fence rope and bandage it in with vet-wrap.

It is really helpful to fear from other people who've taken forever to get through to a scared horse - holiday, Montana. I'm sure that if I try to rush her, or try to keep to some sort of timetable, that would cause a lot of damage.I'm sure that's a good half of her issues - she's only 6 and has been shown as a child's hunter already - I can only assume she then had a 'meltdown' like she did with me, utterly unable to cope any more. Poor little one :(

[KateWooten]

Muriel ! Did you mis joePony's vid ?? Here ... (never shy about showing off the joseph :) ) ...

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103442

[Styric]

Kate, why don't you invest in a pair of anti static wrist/ankle straps if that's what you're interested in?

Computer technicians use them.

[teabiscuit]

Kate, why don't you invest in a pair of anti static wrist/ankle straps if that's what you're interested in?

Computer technicians use them.

don;t they have to be attached to some earthing thing?
with ours you have to be attached to the mat that comes with it

how do the computer technicians ones work Styric?

[KateWooten]

Actually I bought an anti-static wristband ... but like T says - it has to be earthed to something ... so I can use it to pet her, but I'm clipped on to a T-post ... which kind of goes against the grain because I need her to know that she can always leave if things get uncomfortable for her.... and there's nothing to earth to in the stable ... and it's not easy to stand on a block near a T-post ... So, all in all, the wristband is impractical. I'm better off focussing on the positive for her - the things she can do, with minimal touching.

Today she lifed all four feet for me (ok, one at a time obviously :D ) with minimal touching, no resistance, out in the pasture, without a halter and lead.

I think there are ways forward for her, they'll just be slightly unorthodox in the order in which she progresses.

It's very similar to joePony's old bridling problem - he needed to be able to wear a regular bridle for sure - but bridling was no place to build our confidence in each other. We ignored bridling for 6 months and when one day I forgot it was joe ... and just put the bridle on him without thinking, he just accepted it without thinking !

[Styric]

Some just have a lead to touch to the ground.

Different types do different things, some require a mat, some have stuff that goes into your chair, and others just have to have a clear contact to the ground.

I also tend to spray my dog down with water when he's getting staticky.

It's all difficult though, you'd almost be better off tranquilizing her, clipping her and then working on the touch desensitization. That's a bit drastic though..

[holiday]

Im so pleased ive just caught up with your thread, your completely right about not trying to put an order on the way you do things, when ponies have a problem you can only concentrate on things that take you forward.

Im hoping Charlottes mum will sort out a DVD of Tommy soon as i will put a before and after on our website the difference since July is asounding you wont believe it, even though his stable problems are very slightly better they arent totally improved!!!!! He will still try and climb the walls if you look at him in the wrong way!!!!!!!

We had a pony day today and Charlotte rode him all day one of the other childrens parents commented on how long his tail was - its desperate for trimming trailing on the floor!!!!!! So we had a banter and laugh and i offered her a pair of scissors if she wanted to try!!!!!! She thought better of it and decided his tail looked lovely just as it was!!!!!!!!!

Keep up the good work!!!!!
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/Caroneno/tommysrsd1.jpg
Tommy and his prizes!!!!! On his head very brave boy!!!!!!

[KateWooten]

I read recently in the Mature forum, I think, of someone starting their young pony by riding in the stable ... and I thought :eek: and :confused: and :rolleyes: and all sorts of things. BUT, I couldn't quite put my finger on why I thought that a first ride in a confined area would be a bad idea.

So, I've thought about it... and I still can't figure out whether it is safer or hideously dangerous. I know that Meredith Hodges, the very odd Mule lady, daughter of Charles M Schulz starts all her mules and donkeys by mounting them while they're tied in their grooming area ... and I know she says never to do this with a horse ... but not why ! (she's a bit like that, anyone who deosn't know her - lots of differences between how you deal with a mule and a horse, but very little rational explanation) . The cons seem to be : confined space - more change of catching something, getting pinned against a wall... Pros : no distractions, she stays in a comfortable place, nothing can run up and attack her, so she needn't be on the lookout, can be incorporated into a relaxed grooming / flexing / handling routine ... she can't build up any speed if she does spoo, and the footing is better ! Plus, her stable is 25ft by 15 and she's a tiny Pony, so it's actually quite big !

So, to cut a long story still quite long ... I tried it. Well, not quite. We did a lot of good flexing this morning .. and I was really focussed on the points that KateF emphasises in the Harmony Project book - it's really not an exercise in slinging the horse's head about - it's an exercise about detail, focus, eyes. Well, I knew all that already, but I needed a re-emphasis on the finer points of the exercise.

I needed to hold the flex a little longer, in order to really get Tiny's attention - but I was unsure of whether I would know when to release ... because ok, she's already given me her nose ... nose right round to girth ... what more would I be looking for before releasing, in order to stay consistent ?

Well, as it turns out, it IS obvious. I held the very slight pressure, as Tiny flexed her nose to girth ... and held it and she tried to snatch her head back over and over again ... and then she thought a little, and looked for a correct answer ... putting her nose here, and here, and here .... all in order that she could have her head back. She was hunting around for the right answer ... but her entire focus was on the second half of that sentence ... her nose was looking for the answer but her entire focus was on snatching her head back.

Aha !

(I had an 'aha!' moment, can you tell ?)

her nose was looking for the answer but her entire focus was on snatching her head back.


And then her nose sunk just a little and she waited. And I released. And then it was plain sailing from there. The franticness, the desperation lessened with every new flex, and relaxation poked its nose into our session ever so slightly.

Next we played at putting my foot in a stirrup ... but we didn't change the game - we stayed playing at the deep flex, only with my foot in the stirrup - almost as though the foot in the stirrup wasn't a massive new scary development after all. And then we played weight in the stirrup ... and then weight in the stirrup and step up without panicking because it's all still playing at flexy.

She did so well, and stayed so calm... and I could see it all going through her Tiny Pony head ... flexing deeply to the left, with me laying over the saddle - my head visible out of her right eye, was a real leap of faith for her. But she did it, and stayed quite calm, and then relaxed into the flex. So we stopped there and sang 'Waltzing MyPony' as we took a few turns on the stable-floor :D

I think we may be on to something.

[teabiscuit]

you do seem to be :D

this reminds me of an issue i had when i backed my sharp and sparkly TB, we had a similar ahhah moment, they're what makes it all worth it :D

well done for following your nose, takes a bit of bravery to do that

[Kate F.]

Hi Kate!

Brilliant news - sounds like you're making major break-throughs!

On the riding in the stable bit, I think it depends on how much preparation has gone in beforehand. If you have already built up the relationship with the horse on the ground, and it's just a matter of sitting on for the first time, then I guess the stable (providing there's enough room if things go wrong!) is probably as good a place as any.

If there hasn't been the preparation, and you're just ambushing the horse in what it has believed is its safe environment and forcing it to accept the rider because there's nowhere to go.... well ... need I say more? :p

I've heard of both being used.

Like so many things, it depends on the attitude you do it with, and how much preparation you put into it, doesn't it?! :D

[KateWooten]

Yep - it really does. And you know today, when I was putting weight in the stirrup, and stepping up - not throwing the other leg over, mind you, just stepping up - I got a real calm feeling of confidence from her. There was no doubt at all... I didn't take my life in my hands and see if she would stand, I didn't wonder if she might spook, like she has so many times before... I knew she was going to take my weight, and stand calm. There was no doubt. It was wonderful.

I stopped before getting right on her because it was a great time to stop - and because we wanted to Waltz - I love that waltz, by the way, can you tell ? Even the name of it - it just sets the right tone. It's not 'working' with the young horse, it's not pretending to be a 'game' ... it's the waltz, and subconsciously, that really sets it up for success. We move gracefully, we use elegant, subtle cues .. until the cues are no longer there, just the dance. It really is good ! I don't know if Kate F coined the term, or Richard T., but it's one of the good ones, that's for sure.

This afternoon, I was in the field, I'd just brought Summer home, and Tiny was out by the back of the barn. And I went up and cuddled her. Arms around her furry neck. Not just a quick touch and leave ... but a real live cuddle.

OMG this is huge :D

[holiday]

Well done you!!!!!!!!!! Thats fantastic news!! I get on my breakers in the stable as they tend to think of it as a safety zone - Tommy would be an exception as its his space and nobody elses!!!!

Keep going at it slowly, when you do get to the point of getting on get straight back off again, when shes confident stay on then get back off. When she is in a position to be positive walk one or two strides, then get off!!! The more confident she gets the better youll get on. Dont go beyond the point of too much - less is better!!!

My big news is i managed to trim Tommys tail with no objections yesterday, i put my hand on his hind quarters and walked round the back of him without a response from him and back again, i also managed to run my hand down his back legs and he lifted both back feet up - without trying to kill me or him. I didnt handle his feet just let him lift them up and put them down!!!!! Thats one fantastic breakthrough!!!!!!!!!! I cant believe it!!!!!

Although i still cant catch him and he had a heart attack when i put him back in his stable and i went to pat him - but hey who cares hes got a tail that doesnt drag on the floor and no upset doing it!!!!!!!!! YIPHEE!!!!!!!

[KateWooten]

It's funny how these little things are so important when dealing with ponies like this isn't it ?

I walked round the back of him without a response from him and back again

... that's something I still haven't managed with Tiny - we will, one day, but not yet - she's still a little uncomfortable with me walking round the front of her - let alone the back.

I have to try and stay 'grounded' a little longer ... I really want to get on her ... BUT - no more heart attacks for the poor Pony - she's had enough of them - we're going to aim to keep everything calm and easy ... and no, I have still not tried to catch her either !!

[holiday]

Its the first time he has allowed anyone straight behind him or didnt fly off with the thought of it!!!!!

He did make me laugh pulling his mane though!!! Its very thick and doesnt come out very well so its not the nicest thing to happen to him, but ive done it in a couple of stints to not upset him too much!!!! Hes much more settled tied up out of his stable to do anything so when i got to the top he decided to move towards me, as its Tommy i never very often tell him off and i thought he would move away as hes always quick to get away from you.

But no he decided to squash me against the stable wall very quietly and gently so i ignored him and laughed, carried on and im sure he took all his feet off the floor, i did have to get cross with him in the end - but in a not cross sort of way as he just made me howl laughing, a very cheeky pony - much nicer even if a bit annoying!!!!!!!

[KateWooten]

No pony news from today, alas because a huge storm blew in overnight and there's water, water everywhere. Mostly in my wellies which have sprung a leak.

But yesterday we made some quiet progress. We've narrowed down the point where she panics. I can flex her deeply to the left and wait, wait wait til she softens .. all good. Weight in the stirrup, not a problem. We also practiced flexing to the other side - rather than me changing sides, I held pressure on the rein to have her bend away from me .. hesitant at first, she soon figured it out. So, next step, weight in the stirrup, step right up, flex a lot .. then with my right leg, start the final phase of the getting on thing. As soon as my knee goes up she loses it. So, I stepped down, let her run around a bit (in the stable - she was just running round me .. ) petted her cand carried on as if nothing had happened.

I suspect she's been harshly chastised for panicking in the past. I need to assure her that fear itself is nothing to be scared of. Once we've got that, then we can start finding 'safer' ways to express that fear (ways, for example that don't involve my head planted up to the neck in Tennessee clay). So, stepped up again, reached panic point, stepped down .. until finally, we agreed that she could panic, run around, and I'd just stay there, half on, half off pony, with my right knee casually brushing her hip as she scurried round in Tiny circles, bucking. Which was nice.

Actually she only did that once, before deciding that ok, the touch of my knee wasn't wonderful but in fact the world didn't end, so probably not worth it with all the running about.

No Pony today - I could do some more in the stable, but to be fair, it was blowing such a gale, all the others were gooning around skittishly and I didn't want to upset anything anymore (especially since one particular grey puffball is far to chubbly to be gooning around like that).

Kate

===============
Disclaimer :

I am not a professional. The above is only my opinion. It is based on actual direct experience of using the mentioned techniques on one pony over the past 24 hours. It can not be expected to apply to all ponies, or to ponies of differing statures. Tiny Pony riding is a dangerous activity, almost as dangerous as reading this disclaimer. Apologies if you feel I am an interfering, condescending, sanctimomious old bag. I am, but there you go, what can I do ? Sorry. Please feel free to report my posts if my comments on Small Ponies result in any feelings of animosity on the part of anyone at all.
===============

[neen]

It's lovely to hear about the quiet progress you're making with Tiny. How do you feel about it now? It sounds like you've put the frustration behind you. Are you finding the whole process satisfying again?

I'm enjoying the disclaimers too :p

[KateWooten]

:p Yes, I feel a lot less frustrated with it all. Part of it, although I should know better, was this nagging feeling that she's been at other barns where children have ridden her and jumped her ... so why should I be having all this trouble :rolleyes: Well, since I've managed to get rid of all that sort of thinking, things have got a lot better.

Kate
===============
Disclaimer :

I didn't say any of it. In fact, I wasn't even there.
===============

[KateWooten]

Guess what ... ?



I rode Tiny Pony today.


:D :D :D :D
(where's the 'happy dance' smiley ?)

[Ptaty70]

flipping nora, Kate! how wonderful! i can't believe i have only just read this thread and it's taken me ages to get through it, by the way! what a beautiful pony and how lucky is she to get an understanding home! she will pull through and in 2 months you have come MILES! take a look at your first posts and read through! it's lovely to hear!

well done and you will come on leaps and bounds. I look forward to hearing about your progress. She truly is a beautiful pony! ... and you deserve her.. if that makes sense!

[holiday]

Well done you!!!!!!!! Thats brill!!!!!!!! Dont forget youll have days when you go backwards again but keep going, you see, it is happening!!!!!!!!

[teabiscuit]

well that's great news :D
fantastic :D

[Peanut]

Well done to both you and Tiny Pony. :D

[KateWooten]

well... it wasn't a very long ride ... actually, possibly the World's shortest ride !!!

It was way cool. We have done every variation you can think of on flexing from the ground. Today's new one, on the left, was flex nose to girth, but then I move around a little so I'm on her right eye !! How bizarre. Her right side lags behind a couple of days. New variant for Righty today was to flex to the left fully and accept a smidgen of sunflower seeds there.

Then, for foot in the stirrup work we struck a deal. Stand still fully flexed while I go through the whole foot in, spring up, pat a little, get down AND take foot out of stirrup, and you get a treat. Otherwise we just hang on in there til you stand still so you might just as well stand still to start with. She really got that. At first we did a LOT of sidepassing all the way around the stable, but by the end she'd stand real still from the first step which is to pick up the left rein and flex.

So, after 2 steps up, lift my right knee and brush her hip we were just feeling really confident. I guess once you're perched up there with your knee all the way up and over to her opposite hip, it's not a big step to get that leg over onto the saddle.

Total ride time, I would guess was less than a hundredth of a second Bum barely grazed saddle and we swung back down, stood still, and got a heap of praise :) :)

It's really cold today, so I've been putting it off ...

[prettybluepony]

I'm going to have to try some of this with a certain bronc I know! :)

Sounds like you are having a good time there!


On the riding in a stable thing, I think a horse relaxs and calms faster, and better, we start most our breaks bending in the stable and having a nice walk round till their calm. Then next ride they start like that and then if all is good we go to the yard!

[KateWooten]

... :D :D And welcome home Tiny, un-electric, very very cuddly Pony :eek: :eek:

Seriously !!! I do believe the Black Oil Sunflower seeds must have worked their way through her skin and into the coat because Tiny Electric Pony now has the softest cuddliest fur imaginable ... now she really is as cuddly as she looks.

And that's not all. She's cuddleable too. Walks up to me in the field to see if I have treats .... and stays for a cuddle !!! Real live, arms round her neck smoochy cuddle.

She's still into bucking me off, mind ! Well, to be fair, over the last couple of days we've continued with the steady progress on mounting and dismounting, taking it out into the roundpen. The first day she clearly told me, no, today was not a good day to be putting weight in the stirrup, but the second day she was up for it. This coincided with Rosie-mare's Mad March Season, and as soon as I was in the saddle, Rosie mare took the opportunity to gaffoon around the field bucking and farting and cavorting up to the roundpen behind Tiny, slamming to a halt just behind her. Tiny tensed and I leaped off before she had a chance to expel me. So, we took a few turns at the waltz, and then got back on and off a bit. It's all good. I was annoyed at myself because when she tensed up, I remembered to stay loose, and to get into a good rodeo position - I think it's important at this point to not get bucked off if possible - but then on dismount, I completely failed to go through our 'all is calm, flex and step down' routine. Oh well, got away with it this time. Tomorrow, maybe, we will try walking a step or two ;)

[holiday]

A big group hug from us all for you and Tiny pony she sounds like shes really going forward in her training and trusting you alot more!!!!!!! (And you her!!) What will be good for you and give you more motivation is that you are wanting to put positive things about her on here, so unless you work her you cant and when you get results we're all so looking forward to hearing about them!!!!!!

[Peanut]

So glad you are getting a cuddle at last - really well deserved. :D

[teabiscuit]

that was very helpful of Rosie :) NOT hehe

never mind- over all another positive (very positive) days work :D

[KateWooten]

So today I'm not sure whether to be happy or devastated.

We carried on with the gentle flexing, hopping on and off her in the roundpen. I did want to push the point a little - I was worried that I was just backing off from asking her to walk round - I hadn't even asked her to flex to the right .. just flex to the left, hop on, wait and hop off again. So, we took the bull by the tiny horns and walked around a little, heavily flexed to the left. All was well. I have her in the wintec all-purpose saddle, with a tree and good clearance over the withers for my right hand. I had the reins sorted so if she moved at all and felt unsettled, I could just bring my left hand back and it would flex her to the left. No problems. Then she got into walking. Perhaps I should have felt this little danger pont, because we've been there before. From reluctant to move, she goes into a mechanical stomping off walk, almost as if she's in a trance. I stopped her a few times and flexed, but she was intent on stomping around. After a few minutes of this, any attempt to bring her to a halt was met with tension. I kept getting her into her 'safe position' flexed to the left, feet still, nose down ... but tensioin was building. She knows I'm thinking of getting off - and the dismount to her, after a few minutes 'riding' is as terrifying as ever. I couldn't find a safe spot to get off, and she was soon sweating and shaking all over, trembling, every muscle taut. She was about to blow, so this really was crunch time. I haven't ridden a bucking horse for over 20 years, and have no idea if I can stay on. Well, she did indeed pitch a big one, bucking, scurrying, and spinning. I was a rodeo queen. I was expecting it, the build-up was unmissable, and I couldn't get out of it, so I was jammed into that saddle, held in with my right arm and heels way down.

It still wasn't pleasant though. We rrode it through, and flexed. I petted her as though nothing had happened. I found the next available microsecond to get off - there wasn't one really, she was incredibly tense. I just got her into our safe position, and let everything go and leaped off. It's amazing how difficult it is to get off a bucking pony safely - I would have thought it was easy - let go and land on your feet .. but I'm not finding that ! I mean, I am landing on my feet, but it's not easy.

Back on the ground I was acting like nothing happened - she'd done well with actually 'being ridden' but she loses it totally on the dismount. We went and hand-grazed the new Spring grass and she was less wired when I put her away, but far from totally calm.

So ... Hmmmmm..... on the one hand I'm devastated that we haven't even begun to address the depths of her problems. She was absolutely terrified. On the positive side, I was able to ride her on a loose rein, and keep one hand on the saddle, and yet still be able to flex her to the left at the first sign of tension. That all worked fine. And I stayed on, so that was good. But this situation where I'm stuck there, wanting to get off, unable to calm her, ... just sitting there as she gets more and more terrified ... it's pretty awful !

I was about to give up again. But then I thought about a plan for tomorrow .. how about, ok, she's fine for a step up, and step straight down again, and she's fine about me sitting there, not doing anything, and then step down again. So should I focus simply on extending the things I can do before stepping down again, just very very slightly ? Step up, flex 2 ways and down again ... step up, adjust reins, step down again ?

[neen]

So should I focus simply on extending the things I can do before stepping down again, just very very slightly ? Step up, flex 2 ways and down again ... step up, adjust reins, step down again ?

Yes, sounds just right.

Nothing new or different has happened here -- you know she hates the dismount, and the longer you leave it, the tenser she gets. So, don't leave it so long. ;) Everything that's gone right, has been as a result of you moving very patiently and slowly in the right direction. Sounds like you took a few steps too many at once. So take a few steps back and go from there.

I agree that you're pretty vulnerable while dismounting. The only time I've ever had any kind of injury from Fluke was when he spooked as I dismounted and the cantle whacked into my thigh. HUGE bruise. Maybe you could do a Frankie Dettori? Or ride under a tree and grab a branch as you go under? How about having a helicopter to winch you up?

Sorry. I'll stop now. :o

I was about to give up again.

Oh, you. :rolleyes:

[julia gulia]

Kate....have you sat in the saddle just caressing her and not asked her to walk on? If so...what happened? will she eventually take a step of her own accord? Is it the actual dismount or thought of it that sets her off? Also...have you tried sitting in the saddle and having your D.H. lead you both around and then dismounted on each side ? Just curious about whether she reacts the same way.

[KateWooten]

hmmmm .... I hadn't had her take even a single step before this, and DH is notoriously crap at doing anything with ponies ... he'll rush out there and then stand drumming his fingers and ask if we're done yet and it all gets a bit stressy, so I tend to count him out of our plans ! I think I am way not brave enough to try dismounting from the wrong side !! I've tried mounting from the wrong side, and she's more tense there ... and Im a lot more clumsy. Up til yesterday I hadn't even got her to flex to the right yet. Ho Hum.

My stunning plan today got sent all wrong. I thought I'd take her down the lower paddock on a lead and do a lead and ride with joePony. Rosie was her usual helpful self and tried backing up to joe and kicking him as I brought him in. She needs a bit of a talking to does Rosie. I got the best work ever out of her yesterday, but in the field she has reverted to psycho-mare from hell again. Tiny was a lot more stressed than she usually is, and did not want to lead from joe so I put her away again.

Maybe I'll go back ten paces and start putting weight in the stirrup from inside the stable - start right over from there again. And Again, and again. She's still upset over bucking yesterday - and yet nothing really happened !

[neen]

She's still upset over bucking yesterday - and yet nothing really happened !

See, Tiny's just like me. Gets all in a tizz over nowt at all and has to be coaxed out of it.

Again, and again.

We like that word.

You're getting there -- it's just that it's S-L-O-W. But Slow is Good, in this case.

C'mon, you've got to give it at least a year.

Meanwhile, you need a wee helper to walk by her head... hmmmmm....

[Ms Kitty]

Just read through all the updates since the last time I saw this thread, good work! There will be ups and down (but you already knew this) but as a whole I think you are making huge leaps of progress, though I am sure it doesn't always feel like it.

And it is always that way. You take one step forwards, feels good, take one more, one more, then you have to take two back, but you are still getting somewhere! Though, granted, slowly. But what's the hurry?

She's still upset over bucking yesterday - and yet nothing really happened !

I think you are wrong about this. I think plenty happened, and even if it didn't in your eyes, it doesn't have to be a lot to make her upset and stay that way until she will be able to release it, mentally, after what we assume she has been through.

Think about people who suffer from phobias. It doesn't need much to set up the full blown anxiety attack, sometimes all you need is to think of the thing you fear and you start experiencing the symptoms. (Don't know if you are interested, but might be an idea to read about human phobias to get an idea what might be going in Tiny's head when she gets her panic on..? Might give you new ideas as well..? Of course, humans and horses are different, but deep down the mechanisms have a lot of similarities..)

Like neen said, we like the word "again"! ;) Don't you dare to give up on Tiny pony now that we are all rooting for you! Besides, when you take a look at her, don't you think she is worth all the trouble in the world? :)

Keep up the good work!

Nina x

Ps. Like neen said, might be an idea to get someone to help you, who would lead her, but maybe DH isn't the best idea.. ;)

[KateWooten]

well, you see, now I was thinking about that - getting a helper to walk with her ... but then, what happened with the trimmer last time - Tiny was getting upset with her one back leg, but I know she lifts it for me every time. So, I thought, ok, I'll just hand her to the trimmer while I lift the foot ... big mistake. She was not happy at all about that man anywhere near her. Completely freaked out ... she really needed me on the ground there reassuring her. So ..... what I was thinking ........ if I had a spare helper ......................... to sit on her while I led her ........................ :p

[Ms Kitty]

Mmm, I see what you mean. The other person would have to be another you in the ideal world.. :o

Might require a lot of time and commitment to get her to trust another person to make the training comfortable for her throughout.. Tricky.

Do you think you would have someone willing to work more than just come every now and again?

Nina x

[KateWooten]

oooh - yes, cross-posted .. Nina - where should I start looking into phobias ... any good links ? books ? Good plan.

From what you know should I try hard always to stay on the safe side of the phobia .. not provoke it ? Or not worry if we get too close to 'it' as long as I can contain the damage there.

She was very definitely not up for anything today - she told me very clearly she needed a quiet day. She's not coming up to me in the field for treats ... and if I approach her, she snatches the treat and withdraws. Head is up and neck is tense.

I guess I need to watch and observe over the next few days for when she's ready to start her 'training' again.

[neen]

if I had a spare helper ......................... to sit on her while I led her ........................ :p

:eek: Oh gosh, is that the time?

Actually this is exactly what I did to you when you came to visit in the middle of Fluke's napping spell. I knew he'd follow me up the lane, so I chucked you up there, knowing he wouldn't nap. Whereas with "internet stranger lady" on the ground he might have insisted on seeing ID and phoning for references before leaving the yard.

However,