Tail Docking (clydesdales) In The Uk..?

[appaIoosa]

Hi all,

I'm trying to find information on whether tail docking of Clydesdale horses is banned or illegal in the UK.

Is this true? Is this actually in the law books? I seem to remember reading somewhere that tail docking of draft breeds (Clydes, Shires, Belgians, etc) was banned (and it is now illegal to do so) - but I'm not 100% sure.

Can someone confirm (rulebook, or web site where this is written down, etc)

Thanks for any and all help.

~app

[Shadowlark]

Given there is a complete ban on Docking/Cropping dogs over there I would assume the horses actually came first.

[ambatt]

Yes, it is illegal andhas been for some years. It is not illegal in France so it is possible any docked horses in the UK may have come from there.

The Horse Docking and Nicking Act was passed in 1949 .

[ambatt]

This is the Defra website in the UK (Government Agency) if you type 'docking' into the search box it will give you links to the Animal Welfare Bill and some of the arguments.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/

BTW Docking of dogs is not yet illegal in the UK, since 1991 it has been illegal for anyone other than a qualified vet to dock puppies. Docking is going to be illegal under Scottish Law. Docking of dogs is illegal in many other European Countries.

[poohsmate]

This is the Defra website in the UK (Government Agency) if you type 'docking' into the search box it will give you links to the Animal Welfare Bill and some of the arguments.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/

BTW Docking of dogs is not yet illegal in the UK, since 1991 it has been illegal for anyone other than a qualified vet to dock puppies. Docking is going to be illegal under Scottish Law. Docking of dogs is illegal in many other European Countries.

i think it is illegal to dock dogs tails unless you can prove they are working dogs. one of our local vet has just been suspended for a month for docking tails!!!!

[*Sez*]

I think Poohsmate is right. Working dogs can apparently benefit from having the length of the tail reduced, to avoid it getting trapped. I was under the impression that even vets could get into trouble for unnecessarily docking tails as "fashion". I don't think horses have been docked in this country for a long time, as the number of actual working horses has drastically reduced. I believe that heavy horses were docked to prevent the tail getting tangled up in equipment when they were working the land... might be wrong though! :D

[Alfies-slave]

You will see Clydesdales and other draft horses who have had their tail hair trimmed level with the end of the dock. This is not docking as no opperation has been carried out. Trimming a tail level with the end of the dock is totaly legal and lots of showing /work horse people do it. The idea is that the tail won't get tangled in reins or lines. If a driving horse swishes its tail, gets a rein or line under it, then clamps it down total panic is the end result. Imagine a horse bolting with a plough or logging arc... that is why this is done.

Showing people do it as it accentuates the fullness of the rump and shows off the leggs.

I don't trim my heavy horses tails because I like them to have something to swish the flies away with as they live out all summer.

[Denbenj]

saying that about dogs, I cant think of the last time I saw a dolberman,rotty, & very few springer & jack russells with undocked tails. Infact my old neighbour had to hunt high and low up the country to find a dolberman undocked, and seemed to pay a premium for it!

I fell out with an old head groom who docked her own JR litter using elastic bands over a period of time.

as far as horses goes I havent seen one with a docked tail for a long long time, hopefully the practice is over with so few being proper work horses now, more of a show horses in draft as sez said I to believe thats why it was docked because of it getting tangled in equipment. Must of been awful for them in summer not being able to swish the flys of... I expect they must of got pretty agitated

[*Sez*]

Must of been awful for them in summer not being able to swish the flys of... I expect they must of got pretty agitated

I always remember crying as a child when I read Black Beauty - Sir Oliver's speech about his docked tail still gets to me now, in particular the part about the flies.
It was not only the indignity of having my best ornament taken from me, though that was bad; but it was this, how could I ever brush the flies off my sides and my hind legs any more? You who have tails just whisk the flies off without thinking about it, and you can't tell what a torment it is to have them settle upon you and sting and sting, and have nothing in the world to lash them off with.

[Denbenj]

awwe sez you will start me of !- that book and the film also ( orginal film) make me cry everytime I read/watch it. I think its a wonderfully touching story tho

sob sob:cool:

[Wally]

In most country shows the rules state that no horse with a docked tail may be show, Unless it is accompanied by a vet's certificate to say the operation was done wholly in the interests of medical benefit.

If you imported a docked horse from another country where docking for fashion and convenience was legal, you would not be able to show it at county level.

I don not know whether this applies to nicking as well as is fashionable with some US breeds.

[Jessey]

I cant think of the last time I saw a dolberman,rotty, & very few springer & jack russells with undocked tails. Infact my old neighbour had to hunt high and low up the country to find a dolberman undocked, and seemed to pay a premium for it!
I have a jack with an undocked tail :D Can't find a pic right now.

Whats Nicking?

[Wally]

Nicking is what they do to some US breeds of Wlking horses sometimes to make the tail stick up in the air.

[Wally]

Here you are
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,847269,00.html

[Jessey]

wow that is some seriously nasty operation :mad:

[Denbenj]

Blimey thats awful, I do feel sorry for animals...all done in the art of the human eyes vanity

Leave them be!


When I went to get my JR he had his tail docked, however he was also near death and riddled with fox mite/pussy eyes/skin and bone.

After a heated argument...where the breeder wouldnt even show me his parents!! ( dump of an old farm in cornwall) I paid the money just to get him out of her hands.

I then informed her I was contacting the RSPCA and sped of straight to my vets.

The vet said he was barely 4 weeks old, and was hospitlised and on a drip.

He lost all his hair... but came right in the end with various special diets.

Some people said I was wrong for paying for him, BUT I was there on my own and couldnt get him of the WITCH.

My vet sent a report for the RSPCA backup and said the rest of the litter would of been infected probabley mother to.

Hopefully she got what she deserved.

As it turned out he wasnt even a pure bred JR ( not that it matters I love him all the same) I used to take him to work in my pocket he was like a hamster!


Why do**SOME breeders feel they can treat animals like this! I was disgusted.. some people breed for the love of the animals..then you get the rouges with pound signs in there eyes

This is Benji now! what a sweetie...not sure what breeding he could be! some people have said westiexJR or yorkieXJR

who knows!!
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/lenny007xx/pets/horseriding025.jpg

[Afellpony]

Docking horses' tails was made illegal in GB in 1951
RE Blackbeauty. I cannot read that book without crying. My mum first read me the story when I was very young and I've read it several times over. Such a very sad story.

[Bertie]

I think Poohsmate is right. Working dogs can apparently benefit from having the length of the tail reduced, to avoid it getting trapped. I was under the impression that even vets could get into trouble for unnecessarily docking tails as "fashion".

I can't comment on horses as I don't know anything about that I'm afriad but with regard to the docking of dogs tails - I know a little about this ;) and in english law it is not illegal to dock a dog of any kind. However, it has to be done by a vet and done with so many days of the litter being born i think about 3-days (but I'm open to correction) I only know this as I got a lecture of the reception at my vets when I took in my docked Rottie for it's 1st jabs about how she was going to report me :mad: :mad: But I'd researched this prior to buying my dog and confirmed with vet that it wasn't illegal just a little frowned upon these days, silly woman :mad: :mad: :rolleyes:

It is definitely a "fashion" and "breed" thing and not necessarily a practice I agree but I was told by the vet if done correctly and within the time frame, as I say i think 3-days old it is actually quite a painless proceadure for the pup - how true that is I don't know :confused: :confused: Not having a tail or ever being docked can't say for sure that there right. If you are looking for a breed which is traditionally docked you will pay a premium for it as you will have to get i early before they're born and with a huge deposit because if it's left on and then you back out the breeder will find it hard to sell :(

[Jessey]

My piglet tailed Jack :D
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/Jessey129/DillonDog.jpg

[Denbenj]

awwwe cute!!! loving his curly tail:D

[chev]

Jessey - my Jack Russell has a tail too :D Til you posted that pic I'd never seen another with a tail.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/bronyfelin-ponies/TillyFrog2.jpg

(She was about three months old and had just found her first frog... :rolleyes: )

[teabiscuit]

never seen a JR tail-they look so much better on than off and i bet they wag like fury

[Wally]

Hmmmm, not sure about the benefits of docking a working dog.

I have had working collies for quite a while and no other dog takes his job (and that of any other working breed) as seriously as a collie.

When working sheep that tail is used as a counter balance, it's a huge benefit when cornering at speed.

Never have I ever known a collie to damage a tail during any kind of work or play....and they play as hard and mad as they work. We've had spilt paws, claws torn out, they hang themselves in the sheepnet or the top of a gate regularly.....but (touch wood) never a tail injury.

......could it be that Spangles tend to be owned by the shooting types, who tend to be....how do I put this delicately? .... from the upper classes. (I can afford a horse and go hunting, but to go shooting is MEGA pricey) One cannot be seen to have a common looking Spangle! maybe barking up the wrong tree here!

[poohsmate]

[QUOTE=Bertie;1130475]I can't comment on horses as I don't know anything about that I'm afriad but with regard to the docking of dogs tails - I know a little about this ;) and in english law it is not illegal to dock a dog of any kind. However, it has to be done by a vet and done with so many days of the litter being born i think about 3-days (but I'm open to correction) I only know this as I got a lecture of the reception at my vets when I took in my docked Rottie for it's 1st jabs about how she was going to report me :mad: :mad: But I'd researched this prior to buying my dog and confirmed with vet that it wasn't illegal just a little frowned upon these days, silly woman :mad: :mad: :rolleyes:

Thats really interesting bertie, because as i said earlier my vet got suspended for docking dogs tails in nov/dec 2006. and this link states that it is illegal unless they are working dogs or medical reasons. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4807372.stm

[gypsygold]

Ah how cute - he is very like my JR, except mines more brown than white.
He has a docked tail and i have to admit it wasnt something I never even thought of when I got him having always had breeds or x-breeds with tails.

I think it occured to me on about the 3rd day he didnt have a tail :o and I suddenly felt really sad that he had had his tail chopped off, like buying a new item and realising its blemished:rolleyes: . Anyway it was a bit late by then and I love him to bits all the same:D

[Jessey]

We always had lots of Jacks (X's mum bred them) and they were always docked - aparently its so that when they are down a hole you have a hand length 'handle' to grab them back out with should the need arise. I have found with Dillon's curly long tail it can be more difficult to grab hold of without twisting/bending it and hurting him :o
Dillon's tail throws people as to his breed :D, bless him our vet acctually asked if he was crossed with a whipet last week :rolleyes: he is a bit leggy for a jack, but honestly :p
Chev that pic is just so cute, we lost all of Dillon's baby pictures when our old lap top died :(

[ambatt]

Spaniels, JRs, Weimeraners, Dobermans, Rotties,Poodles, Boxers, German Pointers etc etc etc are all docked. Labradors are just as much a working breed as Spaniels and they are not docked, nor are collies, greyhounds, lurchers, whippets, in fact sighthounds NEED their tails for balance. - yet these are still working dogs.

There is no justification in my book that dogs should be docked at all unless it is for explicit medical reasons such as injury or necrosis. After all the tail is an extension of the spinal process.

To get back on topic, some heavy horses have the dock completely shaved which could make it look as though it was docked. Iberian youngstock are also treated in the same way, with mane and tails hair removed until they are 2 (and mares for life but the tail is allowed to grow).

Chev - i just love Jessey - she is absolutely adorable!

[gypsygold]

I think yes it is more the shooting types such as spaniels to prevent them getting caught in brambles etc whilst flushing, the types of dogs that have to work through thick cover.

Also guard breeds such as rottys and dobes were docked to make them look more aggresive. As a dog will wag its tail when it is apprehensive - however much it might be snarling at one end apparantly wagging its tail at the other end with apprehension made them look less fierce!

Also I know it is or was common practice to have dew claws removed on lurchers (perhaps greyhounds too?) because as they run and turn at speed they can get caught and torn. I queried this with the vet and he said he didnt feel it was neccessary so we left our lurcher alone but we did have a lot of dew claw injuries with her - and she isnt worked at all.

I'm not saying that docking is definately neccessary but just that maybe it should be researched in a non- biased manner - maybe it has been I dont know.

I think we've gone off original topic a bit:rolleyes:

[Trewsers]

RE Blackbeauty. I cannot read that book without crying. My mum first read me the story when I was very young and I've read it several times over. Such a very sad story.


My mum tried to make me read it as a child (I was always rebelling and refused). It wasn't until I was about 24 years old I sat on the settee with OH and watched the film - and we both cried. :o Can't think about it now without filling up - its such a sad story.

[buttons]

I hate to be controversial, but there are some working dogs that really ned to be docked. Our gun dogs would come back in a dreadful state if they did'nt have docked tails.

They would be full of gorse needles and that really is agony for a working dog. Collies are really different 'cos they dont have "hard" tails like springers.

[chev]

buttons; my parents bred working gun dogs for years. Mainly English Setters but also spaniels. Our were not docked, and never had a single tail injury.

Bearing in mind that springers are docked 'long' a lot of the time (rather than the very short tails you see on Rotties etc), and that English Setters have *traditionally* undocked long feathery tails, I find the working dog argument hard to swallow. Why would two breeds of gun dog who do very similar jobs in very similar ground be treated so differently? Setters (English, Irish, or Gordon) have never been docked, working or otherwise. Nor have labs.

[Bertie]

[QUOTE=Bertie;1130475]I can't comment on horses as I don't know anything about that I'm afriad but with regard to the docking of dogs tails - I know a little about this ;) and in english law it is not illegal to dock a dog of any kind. However, it has to be done by a vet and done with so many days of the litter being born i think about 3-days (but I'm open to correction) I only know this as I got a lecture of the reception at my vets when I took in my docked Rottie for it's 1st jabs about how she was going to report me :mad: :mad: But I'd researched this prior to buying my dog and confirmed with vet that it wasn't illegal just a little frowned upon these days, silly woman :mad: :mad: :rolleyes:

Thats really interesting bertie, because as i said earlier my vet got suspended for docking dogs tails in nov/dec 2006. and this link states that it is illegal unless they are working dogs or medical reasons. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4807372.stm

That's really interesting Pooh's mate maybe the law has changed since I got my Rottie which was back in 2003, I'm going to read that article :)

With regard to the reasoning behind docking, I believe that the reasons back in day for doing it was to prove that your dog was a working dog and therefore you exempt from paying tax on the animal - I think that's right anyway :rolleyes: :confused: but it's definitely something to do with proving it works for a living and avoiding tax back in probably the victorian, edwardian periods or even before and it's a tradition like many that has continued :)

[Wally]

I have seen many a sheep dog, fully equipped with a tail, pouncing on sheep in goarse and thick cover. Getting up close and personal with them too, which a gun dog never has to do, being savaged by a phesant does spring to mind, but I'm not sure the Phesant would inflict much damage.

I like the tax, theory, you din't need a licence for a working dog either, ....but that doens't explain why some dogs are docked traditionally, and some are not. If I know old farmers they'd be the first out with the garden shears to the collies if they could pay less money to the government.

[hackedoff]

Docking horses is as everyone has said is illegal, so is de-clawing a cat and de-barking a dog, which I am given to understand still goes on in US...? Or am I wrong?

[Wally]

A lot of Army dogs were hobdayes so they didn't give themselves away by barking at the enemy before they tore them to bits! Mwa ha ha!