My horse is a real sod !

[KateWooten]

She really is ! Rosie, this is, my little saddlbred x arab, opinionated princess. She's had a couple of months off because I wanted to get her back really well worked on, saddle fit etc etc. But it's not as if she hasn't been handled that whole time .... So I started her again this weekend - just gentle walks up and down the road, just as though she were still a newly started baby (she is only 5). Well, it turns out her gearbox is shot. All forward gears have gone. Reverse is good, and neutral, with the parking break on, is 100% reliable. She can plant her feet for England !

So, into the round pen for some serious workout. First time took nearly an hour of hard work, with good constant turns before she would come in quietly. She was offered the chance to many times, but she can not charge in all snort and flailing hoofs and expect to be welcomed. It took a good 45 minutes to see her nose drop to the ground - and lick and chew didn't follow for what seemed like ages. When she did come in, she stuck with me for a turn or two, then left and it was another ten minutes before she'd follow me around with her head on the ground. Hmmmm.... sound like a nice, submissive attitude ? Took her out again to just walk ten steps up the road - it's our own road for crying out loud - she's been up there hundreds of times .... no, she wasn't having any of it.

It's taken 4 days of this battle so far. I know it's not fear on her part. For example, we can be walking along just fine, then she'll start squinting at the side of the road, and edging towards it ... A couple of times, I haven't stopped this in time, and she gets herself wedged in the ditch, backed up and with no way to go forward again. She's picking her spots where she thinks she can get the better of me ... parts of the road where there is a drop-off to a creek for example - she knows I won't risk a battle right there.

I've tried walking her towards home a little way, then turning her back again ... big fight ! It's surely not fear - she just doesn't want to.

I guess my overall strategy has been to try to make it so much easier just to go for a ride down the road .... but why the constant battle ? This is at least the fourth time I've been through this with Rosie. And had a professional NH trainer to come and work with her ... and he too was suprised at the degree of 'No, andyou can't make me' that he found in her.

Today (after roundpenning, twice) we managed a quite sensible walk to the end of the road and back.... and then a turn away from home again where she thought about saying no but didn't... and then a walk-trot to the end again. Maybe we're over the worst of it (again).

Ho Hum, at least there was no big high rearing this time.

Could it be possible that she is, in fact, 'a naughty horse' ? Cos, if she is, I'm going to have to change my whole religion :eek:

[teabiscuit]

i don't know about naughty, but i can sympathise, having an awkward Annie myself, (my BFSM)

she certainly made me question my approach, and i went around in circles for quite some time before i decided that she was plain difficult and she was the odd one out, from all the horses i've known including flighty skittish OTTB's-i could do something with them, even if it was limited, they still had a learning curve

this quiet homebred Shire x was supposed to be sane, sensible and sweet

i should have been able to back her with my eyes shut-not a snowflake in hells chance. learning curve ? what's that! that's the bit i found very frustrating

i still question myself about her, what am i doing wrong.

i reluctantly now think a very small percentage of horses are just plain difficult, end of!

[Tots N Dots]

I think opinionated may be the term needed? :D you really have your work cut out at the moment dont you lol, I dont know where you get all that patience from, I would have grabbed the "3 second rule" by now :D , do you know I have only ever had to do that with Pickle that one time, never a problem since, but he is moving home tomorrow, at last, well thats if I can get him in the trailer ;), we will have an indoor school (YIPEEEEEEE), so he is coming back into work, I hope to be on him by next weekend,
ummm maybe I will be posting some similar threads in a couple of days :o

[Blair Witch]

I'd start my riding her in an arena or in your round pen. Get her to go through all her transitions and make sure she respects your leg. When you get a good result walk her out of the pen and down the road. Carry a crop to re-enforce your crop if need be. You could also try walking her from the ground up the road so she'll get use to it again. It sounds like a lack of respect to me. Do a lot of lunging, brushing and start training from square one.

[teabiscuit]

ID , do you know I have only ever had to do that with Pickle that one time, never a problem since, but he is moving home tomorrow, at last, well thats if I can get him in the trailer ;), we will have an indoor school (YIPEEEEEEE), so he is coming back into work, I hope to be on him by next weekend,
ummm maybe I will be posting some similar threads in a couple of days :o

can we have some Pickles pictures please :D

[Tots N Dots]

can we have some Pickles pictures please :Dawwwww:o thats sweet :D
(not wanting to nick Kate's thread)
but yes I am taking the (new) camcorder and the camera tomorrow when he moves, wont video the loading, havent a disk that long :p , but I have bought him a pilates ball too, so will video what he thinks to that too :D

[KateWooten]

I'd start my riding her in an arena or in your round pen.

Yep - I do that. This ill be the fourth time I've restarted this little heathen from scratch. She's perfect in the roundpen - but it's small - too small to canter her there.

Get her to go through all her transitions and make sure she respects your leg.
Yep. This is a little horse who can easily differentiate when the leg means move your butt an inch left, move your butt 360 in a circle, bend your ribcage ever so slightly, step over with your shoulders... of just plain move forward. She knows when light seat means halt from a canter, when it means back up. She can easily and willingly go through the whole routine of lateral work up to haunches in at a trot - and all without needing to pick up on reins.

When you get a good result walk her out of the pen and down the road.
Yep. And she does not want to move forward.

Carry a crop to re-enforce your crop if need be.
I gave up with the little short bat, and went to the long whippy dressage crop. Both reins in one hand, lean back, and gave her an almighty smack with it over the backside. Twice. One small step forward. Bash, bash ... one step forward ... Now what ?

You could also try walking her from the ground up the road so she'll get use to it again.
Yep, that's how we started yesterday. Me leading her, then Me riding her with Dh alongside to lead her. Me on the ground leadingher is fine - like I say, this is her home ground, she's been up and down this road a gazillion times.

It sounds like a lack of respect to me. Do a lot of lunging, brushing and start training from square one.
It's a big time lack of respect for sure. I lunge her every day, brush her etc. Plus major NH-style ground work. Send her over objects, squeeze through gaps, over things, under things... she can trailer load from a thousand paces (why ? I don't know - just for fun), side pass over logs etc etc etc.

Plus I restart her training from scratch seems like every 3 months or so. I'm just not sure how many more times I can go through this with this little horse. I'm beginning to think she's not worth it :o

[KateWooten]

I'm pleased to hear about Annie (well, not pleased, you know). Thing is my BFSM I can deal with - I know where she's coming from. It's this flightly little madam .. I think she's got my number. I suspect that she's sure that I will not raise the pressure high enough. Well, actually, we have a history together, and if I'd have reacted better earlier, things would be different. She kicked me int he face one time, when I just got her, and she has some really huge rears so for a while there I was genuinely afraid of her. Thing is, when she's over this hump, she'll be wonderful for months... but then I know we've got it all to come again still !

[Mehitabel]

can you turn her round and back her in the direction you want her to go? that is a trick that works a lot of the time. back until they're sick of it, turn and try again, and the slightest 'shan't' response and round you go again. i once reversed rond over half an hour's ride.

if the rest is fine, then don't waste time repeating it - it's in her comfort zone, it's not teaching her anything any more. work on what needs work. you can overcome the history, but you have to be prepared to p the pressure as far as she is illing to push you. it's not nice to have to do it, but if it really is 'shan't', then you either just do what she wants for the rest of her life or you do it.
i've been there - with a pony who like yours started out with good reason to be anxious, but after 2 years and several people in hospital had just decided she didn't like working and she knew what stopped people asking her to do things she'd rather not. the first few times i rode her it took me on top and a tall person either side to keep her close enough to the ground to walk round a paddock (she was 12hh...). it took a long time but we got there and eventually she became a lovely pony - all that willpower and spirit was channelled into pleasing the rider and not fighting them. she'd jump the moon for mer mum now.

once you've gotten over the 'you will do it because i say so' - which you do have to go through for everyone's safety- you can then start doing the fun things and she will twig that you wanted her to go up the road because it then leads to fun things.

[KateWooten]

I did hope to turn her back, get the momentum going, then turn her away from home again .. but you know, it's like riding half a plank. Turn towards home, and the enrgy is there ... turn away .. and she's a complete plank. Stiff, jaw clamped, head in the sky, back taut.

It really is 'shan't' .. and 'you can't make me'.

That's a scary story with you and the tiny pony in the arena ! Yikes ! At least Rosie has for the most part given up rearing (too much effort I think, plus by good luck, she's never got me off that way.)

So, zero tolerance, and lots of work, then for dear little princess. I did notice this morning, leading her back form the ride, her leading is also awful now (when did that happen ??). So we went back to zero tolerance there too. It's a bit grim, but yes, she'll just have to do what I say for a little while and no argument. I hope I do get all that fire and spirit back later - to make use of. I think that's what has kept me going with her - the thought that there is all that grace and fire and beauty. If only I can channel it.

[JOJOBA]

Ah now you scolded me for calling Jack a sod (even though I meant it in the most affectionate way possible at the time ;)).
Im sure you'll work it out, Ive unfortunately realised that some (NOT all, but some) of my problems are caused by my horse regarding me as a minor annoyance rather than a trustworthy and dominant leader. If I try to dominate him though he just ignores me :rolleyes:, we are dealing with a lack of respect as well! It all sounds a bit familiar really, I guess Im just glad to know it happens to the best of us ;)!

xxx

[KateWooten]

Yeah well, I'm a long way from being the best of us :D I think that's exactly how she sees me .... an annoying little disruption to her day.

It's a good thing, though, right ? I mean, we're all going to develop better horsemanship through this ... right ? In the long run .... (...desperately scrounges around for a silver lining to owning Rosie ... )

I know, I'm going to have to change my whole mantra about the whole naughty pony thing .....aaaaarrggghhhh ...Perhaps we shoudl just call it 'testing' ? As in 'she's testing me' ... not being an aggravating monster, just giving me some more advanced tests right :rolleyes:

[Mehitabel]

I did hope to turn her back, get the momentum going, then turn her away from home again .. but you know, it's like riding half a plank. Turn towards home, and the enrgy is there ... turn away .. and she's a complete plank. Stiff, jaw clamped, head in the sky, back taut.

It really is 'shan't' .. and 'you can't make me'.

That's a scary story with you and the tiny pony in the arena ! Yikes ! At least Rosie has for the most part given up rearing (too much effort I think, plus by good luck, she's never got me off that way.)

So, zero tolerance, and lots of work, then for dear little princess. I did notice this morning, leading her back form the ride, her leading is also awful now (when did that happen ??). So we went back to zero tolerance there too. It's a bit grim, but yes, she'll just have to do what I say for a little while and no argument. I hope I do get all that fire and spirit back later - to make use of. I think that's what has kept me going with her - the thought that there is all that grace and fire and beauty. If only I can channel it.

yes, it is grim - and we do this because we like horses - we don't enjoy getting tough onthem. but enjoying it or not, sometimes it needs to be done - and it has been her who has upped the ante every time - you're not being unreasonable.
tiny pony and i fought like nothing on earth for a good 6 weeks of daily work - she would refuse to come in, i'd have to chase her round the stable for 10 minutes to get a headcollar on her, she'd pull back and run away when she saw me put my hat on, it took another 20 minutes to get the tack on, getting on was a case of get the helpers hanging on tight and launch myself and hope - but it got better and better and by the time i stopped riding her and her owner was able to take over, she whinnied at me when she heard my voice, she groomed me (and to this day, she is 16 now, she won't groom anyone else), her eyes lit up when she saw tack because she had worked out that once seh stopped fighting, there was actually quite a lot of fun inolved inthis riding lark, going charging round the forest and jumping things.

it was very worth it - possibly the most rewarding turnaround i've ever done.

[teabiscuit]

glad JoePony is back under saddle again, has it left much of a scar?

[Retty]

Can you have another horse/pony take the lead up the lane and you follow?

[KateWooten]

I can't get her to follow another horse on a regular basis because I ride alone ... but, I can trailer her out on a hack with friends .... That's probably a good idea ... I was kind of holding off of that because of her back trouble. I'm persuing the idea that if I can ask her to mover more effectively from her back end, and loosen her very loooong back muscles, that she will be able to develop her back so as to be able to carry a rider well. My plan for this involves very focussed (on my part) ridden work at a walk for 5 and ten minutes at a time, incorporated in with her in-hand work. If I take her out with my buddies, it will be an unfocussed 2 hour ride ... well, that might be a good thing to just free up her feet.

Poor joePony - he's sound, he was pretty much all along ... but not healed :( It's still a bit bloody, the scab is mostly over the wound now. It started raining here again, so I can't turn him out any more - too muddy - even the front lawn is churned up now ... so I've started taking him down the road a couple of times a day just to keep him moving and the blood flowing. Because of where the wound is, on top of the hoof there, he's perfectly fine to walk on a hard surface - he can't go anywhere that his foot would sink in. After 2 months off, and no turn out, he's just as well behaved as ever, only a lot bouncier !!

[svenja]

as the owner of an opinionated little princess, all I can do is offer you my complete sympathy....
I'd go for hacks with other horses, the novelty of it may mean she'll forget to be naughty.:D
And hang in there. It's always when you start cursing them in your head that they surprise you and actually start showing all the hard work is paying off!
Good luck!:D

[Lili & Morgan]

Hello Kate,

Are you following my journal on Linda's training on EE? I think that Rosie is very much like Linda a NON-MOVER. She plants her feet and she says NO.

One thing that my trainer says is that a horse must be forward going that without movement you cannot do anything. Have you done the legs lesson on Rosie? Lots of turn-on-the-forehand, when touching her side.

You are training her, so your horsemanship is getting better in leaps and bound (sp?). I am not as good as you as I need a trainer. Linda is too difficult for me :rolleyes:

Good luck with your cheeky mare!

[KateWooten]

Hmmmm... actually Muriel, I'm training her myself cos there's not a trainer within a gazillion miles of HillBilly County that I would trust !!

Is Linda's thread easy to find on EE.. I'll go have a look. I realised I had a forward problem .. maybe it's just not been as severe before with Rosie, I'd just assumed I would merrily move her butt over, put her feet to work, move her shoulders over, then offer her teh step forward again... and all would be well. But NO! Couldn't even get a half turn disengage - when it came to her nose facing somewhere near 'down the road' .. she turned to concrete !

So, today, what we did, after yesterday off, I took her out and did some work off the halter - butt over 360 degrees, then through the gap and shoulders over90, then butt 180, through the gap, and shoulders 90. It's a neat flowing sort of exercise. Then took her in and played with stretches - and she told me not only is her back sore, but now her ears are hurting :confused: I have no idea about this little mare - where does she get it all from ! So, battled with her trying to clean out her ears for a while... then we did som in-hand work which was very educational (for me !)

I had her working just off the halter, along the road (very quiet road - all the paddocks are slippery). Ask for trot and she launches ahead, and then because I'm behind, uses it as an excuse to spin around in front of me and stop. So .. on with the sidereins. Ha ! She never saw that coming. They're ever so slightly too short for her current level ... but I put them on, let her stretch down a little, then asked for a trot. Beautiful. Side reins off ... and Oh Wow ! My little mare is back. She would trot on just a 'lively step' from me, and walk again when I did. Not only that, but I could also get a bit of lengthening, and a kind of half-halt too, just on body-language, like Klaus F-Hempfling does :D So, that was nice.

Then, put some reins on and hopped on, and did get a half thought of napping, but quickly squashed and she was perfect after that. I don't think I got the same quality of a trot I had earlier in the week for a few strides ... but I wasn't expecting to either. All teh while I've been battling with her, I've had to put the treed saddle back on her in order to stay on, and I suspect that's why the pressure test on her spine today was so bad (you know, the one where you run a pen down the muscles either side of the spine ... she really dipped away from it today, before work.. but oddly enough, she was MUCH better after 5-10 minutes work ... either she's a lot less sore when warmed up properly, or perhaps being ridden hurt even more and she was blocking it out ? ) At any rate, I'll have to be really careful about her work, and keep monitoring the situation. The back lady wants to see her again in 3 weeks.

[quad]

Have you tried using a monty Roberts dually halter? They can be v useful and give kind control.

[KateWooten]

For riding her, do you mean ? Or because it will help with the ear problem ?

[quad]

I have recently bought a 5 yr old dales X mare,she has done quite a lot of parelli.(which I'm also interested in) At first she was nappy (wouldn't come home whilst out hacking!!!) Not wanting to pull her mouth about ,but needing,I felt more control than the parelli halter gave for riding in,I hacked her out in the dually halter,which acts by pressure on the nose.(see monty Roberts website (Kelly Marks) for details,or try and borrow one to try.
Millie (my mare) is now behaving herself,I'm still riding in the halter with my parelli 12' line as "reins" clipped on to the side rings of the "pressure band".This seems to be working really well.leading in hand it will teach a horse that plants it's feet to take a step sideways,this normally starts them moving forward again.Have you considered doing any natural horsemanship (
parelli,kelly Marks etc) I think even the ground skills would probably help.

[KateWooten]

I see you're new to the site ! Yes, she was started entirely using 'NH' (if you like the term - personally, I don't) type thinking. Like I say, she's incredibly easy to move forward, backwards, left and right from the ground - and under saddle usually too.

Th dually halter, like many of MR's hoky products is nothing new. People have been putting a chain or rope over the sensitive part of a horse's nose when they're out of control for years and not thinking there was anything magical about it. The dually halter, whatever it's copyrighted name, acts no different from that.

Rosie rides out just fine in a rope halter, and one lead rope .. or at least she did up til this most recent restart in work. Just for now, I'll keep the extra leverage of the full-cheek bit. It's not the bridle or halter that's at fault here - like I say, the saddle has a lot to do with it. But either way, she has to go forward, even if someone is on her back.

[Lili & Morgan]

I know you mention that there is no trainer you trusted around you. But you ought to have a look again.

Rosie needs ONE lesson : the legs aids. Rosie sounds like a smart cookie, when she would have understood, that is it, it is for life. But it is better done by a Pro.

I love "NH", but it is NOT very good for riding. You cannot beat PROPER English riding. Why because it has thousand years of experience, many masters, who wrote books, Institution who keeps alive the schooling like Le Cadre Noir de Saumur or Spanish School of Vienna. NH riding comes from western riding, which comes from Doma Vaquera, which comes oh, from good classical dressage/ Alta Scuola!!!

Now, 6 months ago, I would have swore only by classical dressage and NH. Who is training my horse? A Show-Jumper!!!! I am the first surprise !!!

Have a look around, Do not listen what the trainer says but watch him intereacting with horses. If you have read my journal, you know that I would have beatten the crap out of my present trainer, the first time I met him. Because He told me so many rubbish. Look now, he is one of the more enlightened person I have met. Still macho, but hé! he is Italian !!!
Oh come on you have much more experience than me. You were a groom for a year :p ;) :D You will find the right trainer for Rosie, even if it is for a couple of lessons!

[KateWooten]

I'm loving reading the trials and tribulations of Linda over on EE .. she's coming a long way - well both of you are :)

The only teacher I have half an eye on so far is Wendy Murdoch. Ihear good things about her. She's about 10 hours North of here. Gas alone is going to cost me $400 a lesson ! I'll have to start saving. And she's not classical.

Looking at UDBB, and COTH, the guys down in Atlanta are mostly big fans of Anky. I'm not going there.

My local dressage lady is quite sweet. Rosie and I had a lesson with her, and she said not to bother, the horse will never be competitive, so don't waste my time or hers. Plus, she would not get on a horse like Rosie, she said.... because of the bronking issue. I could give her another try though, and tell her that we really do have ago-forward problem. She wondered if we did last time - but it wasn't really evident then. It could havejust been Rosie's poor conformation ... she was trotting round ok, but not engaging herself at all. Now I know it' a go forward problem, we might be able to get somethign out of it...

The other trainer there is the 6ft guy who got on Tiny Pony (13hh, scared out of her wits) to help her through her confidence issues. When she bucked him off, he sorted her out, and I bought her out of the field 3 weeks later for nothing as nobody had been able to get near her since. Oh - they have one more trainer there. The lady who raised and schooled big Fat Stroppy Mare, with all her issues of bracing against contact and rearing over backwards.

You would have to see, to believe what is available here. I can't realistically trailer Rosie 20 hours in these temps for a lesson, even if it is just the one. But, I could book a weekend later in the year. Wendy Murdoch doesn't actually ride the horse though, she'd just teach me.