Round-penning for the unbeliever - should I or no?

[Peace]

I want to do groundwork with my young paint gelding, Quanah. My neighbor is insistent that I need to bring Quanah to her house and let her show me her (Clinton Anderson) method of round-penning. She says we can teach him "respect" on the ground, how to execute his gaits upon verbal command, and get him some exercise in the process.

I had in mind long-reining instead, but there's no one around to teach me how. I expect there are trainers within driving distance, but until I can buy a trailer (which will be another six months or so) I can't get to them.

Right now Quanah walks nicely on a lead, backs up, stops, and maintains a comfortable distance at all times. I can't for some reason get him to move sideways without him getting cheesed off at me, but that's really our only problem.

I just have never seen the sense in round-penning. I have some reservations not only about Clinton Anderson's methods but also about someone who learned those methods from a tape. Although I should add that this person is also an experienced horsewoman. Her own horse is a nice person but a little too nervous for my tastes, owing I think to the fact he lives alone.

So my question is: could it hurt to give it a try? Would you try it if you were in my place?

[Mehitabel]

me personally, no i wouldn't, if i didn't have a problem with ground manners - and even if i did there are other ways i prefer to deal with them.

if you're happy with the level of respect and obedience you have on the ground then i wouldn't mess with it - done badly, or done on a horse who doesn't have the particular issues it helps with, it can be very detrimental.

[KarinUS]

I probably would say pass on it - but I really can't stand C. Anderson. There are some things he does that lead me to believe that he is either just driven by greed or really has no understanding of horses.
On top of that I agree with you that even a valid concept can be distorted when passed on from one tape-watcher to the next. ;)

That being said I have no problem with using a round pen. I just find the above scenario a bit worrisome. Again you are dealing with a person that's in utter disregard of how horses function (herd animals, etc.) that's trying to teach you something about horses... hm...

[teabiscuit]

noooooooo if t'were me i'd run like the wind far far away from her

my relationship with my neddies on the ground is so important i guard it jealously

man, you're doing great as you are, this woman could make things a whole lot worse

if you're keen on it, go and see her work and see if you like her and her work and her horses before you take the plunge
sorry for the extreme reaction but all my warning lights are flashing :o

[mommadog1956]

i tend to agree with KarinUS on several comments. even though i do watch his (C. Anderson) shows on rfdtv and i learn things from him, i feel that he is somewhat rude to his guests by constantly interrupting them and always wanting to be the one to do the talking. a little elitist, if you ask me. (not that you did :D )

i don't have a round pen and never had. it is an option in the future when funds are available though. i can see some good points in them, and my mare was worked in one while she was at the trainers. but most of my problems with her, occur out in the field, not in a round pen. and since that's where they occur, i think they should be worked on there also. kind of like Ken McNabb does, he actually takes the horse where the problems happen. this type of training suits me better.

as far as tv trainers go, i watch them all, even the ones i can't stand (D. Reis):p i do this because i feel that they all have something to offer us. take what works for you and throw out the rest, but learn something from all of them.

i would do what teabiscuit said, go watch her train, with HER horse, and see what happens. if you like, then participate, if not, then you will know why.

[Peace]

Good points, all.:) I've actually known this woman and her horse for several years. He's a nervous animal by nature and I suspect it doesn't help that he lives alone, but he has improved since she's been working with him using the CA methods. He will still spook right over the top of anyone standing near him if he gets upset though.

I'll probably take a pass. This lady and I have some fairly fundamental differences in our approach to horses. For example, I will only hit one in self-defense while she, although certainly not abusive, feels that horses (and children) greatly benefit from being hit on a somewhat regular basis.

Also, she's known Quanah for years and is very familiar with his reputation at our former yard as a biter and mischief-maker. I'd like him to work with someone who doesn't have those pre-conceived notions, especially since he's so different now.

Thanks for the advice. Y'all have helped me think this through. I think we'll just keep on with what we're doing until we can find someone to teach us long-reining.

[Jessey]

I personally think round penning can have its benifits esp for babies and those who are best let to figure out their own mistakes (my filly would get very agressive if pushed, even if it was onyl something simple like standing still) and in the round pen we found we could push her a little and let her figure out how to deal with it, it also helped her balance and reactions to verbal and body language cues :D

but if this lady does not instill you with confidence then don't go there, horses can be ruined as well as made in a round pen.

Could you arrange for a good trainer to come out and give you a lesson in the round pen, if she would let you, to get you started?

If not i think you would be aswell getting a DVD of longreining and practice on Bram (I assume he will be a little more forgiving) until you are confident to try with Quanah :D

[Peace]

If not i think you would be aswell getting a DVD of longreining and practice on Bram (I assume he will be a little more forgiving) until you are confident to try with Quanah :D

My farrier told me he could show me how to long-rein, but he means just the basics I'm sure as he told me I could learn it all in about thirty minutes.;) And yep, I figured I'd start with Bram - as long as it's not one of his PTSD triggers, he'll definitely be the one to start with. If, on the other hand, it brings back one of those memories from his bad old days, we're all in trouble!:eek: :D

[mayoguinness]

I dont really know C. Anderson at all or his take on horses however Australian NH style liberty work in a round pen has defanatly helped my relationship with mayo and he now does it without the round pen but just in an open feild trotting and cantering round me and he changes his gaits when I lift or drop my energy so I think round pen work is great depending on what style your using !! ;)

[Tootsie4U]

If there is any exercise you want to learn to do, LR or RP or whatever, then go for it. But do it on your own terms even if that means going it alone. I have found that doing something halfheartedly just because someone else tells you you should is a waste of time. If your hearts not in it... If your instincts tell you to stear clear of CA, then thats what you do. If you dont believe in what you're practicing, your horse will know it.

I'd like him to work with someone who doesn't have those pre-conceived notions, especially since he's so different now.


This will be somewhat on a tangent, but that right there will be your key to sucess with your horse. You too must do away with preconceptions and expectations. Dont forget that important part ;)


I can't for some reason get him to move sideways without him getting cheesed off at me, but that's really our only problem.

Horses are smart. More times than not, they understand the terms and conditions of our relationships better than we do. I'd guess that right now Quannah understands that those terms and conditions of your relationship require him to be a good boy when he leads and backs up - things he'll do for you because they aren't all that hard for him. But, if you ask to change those conditions and now move sideways, thats what he has a problem with. Moving sideways is a bit harder than moving in a straight line. And, also, doing what you ask him to do at the drop of a hat also says something about where he lies in the heirarchy he has with you. He gets all 'cheesy' to show his disapproval with the change and thats that. Those terms and conditions are definately something you dont have to change if you're fine living with them, but if you want to change, then you need to be the one making the conditions, not him and especially not together with horses like ours. Later, when he understands the new arrangement of the terms and conditions, you can go back to doing things 'together'. A little horse psychology for ya...

[Kate F.]

She says we can teach him "respect" on the ground, how to execute his gaits upon verbal command, and get him some exercise in the process.


How would you feel about it if you call it free lunging? If the above is what she intends to show, it's one way of using a round pen, and can also be called free lunging, liberty work and any other labels.

I'm not at all keen on Anderson myself - but just because she uses his ideas (and at the end of the day, pretty much everyone's ideas, if they are good ones, will have some overlap) doesn't mean she uses them in the same way or with the same attitude he does.

Why not ask if you can go and watch her working her own horse in the round pen, and just see how she does it and the response she gets?

I don't like the sound of the hitting principle!! - But you might pick up some useful ideas by watching her?

Whether you're long reining, lunging, round-penning, riding, whatever - it's all about communication and body language. The lunge, long reins, verbal cues etc. just back up the body language - and I think it's the body language you need to look out for and study. You may pick up things from her round penning that could be useful for your long reining. You may also pick up things you definitely DON'T want to use - but that can be useful too! :D

btw - on the sideways thing - when the horse moves sideways away from you, it starts to use steps that mean "you're the higher ranking in the herd" in its own "language". You're moving the horse out of your space in the way another horse would when establishing herd order. You can probably fix this if you start with just a little. Move the hindquarters away one step, and. Then move the forehand away one step and reward. Don't reward if you get a cranky expression, just keep asking for another step until you get it with a good expression, then stop and reward. Then build it up until you can alternate forehand and hindquarters - and pretty soon you'll have sideways movement working.

Good luck!

[Cupcake]

I love free lunging! I don't do any special exerices or anything. Normally i start with a nice walk and don't ask skye to trot on until she's nice and relaxed. After 5 minutes she stretches and looks so gorgeous (that's pretty much the only reason i do it).

After a quick canter i slow her down, using my voice. Skye's learnt to listen to my voice and the way i move my body to see how fast i want her to go. I stare at her back if i wanted her to slow down, and i eyeball her if i want her to go faster. Not sure why it makes her go faster, slower but she picked it up pretty quickly.

The real test is getting her to slow down to a stop. I look at the ground and drop my arms ( i dont use a whip, i want her to trust not fear me) and skye just slows down straight away. If she's in a good mood she'll follow me around the paddock afterwards and put her head on my shoulder. It's so cute!

[smaggi]

She says we can teach him "respect" on the ground, how to execute his gaits upon verbal command, and get him some exercise in the process.

I think I would pass on it. We have a few of CAs videos including the round penning video. We have used it on all of our horses as the first step to gain respect and it worked well. I think she has some wrong ideas about the goals of CAs round penning techniques and his training in general.

CA does not use round penning to teach verbal cues for gaits or to get exercise. He starts by getting a consistent gait in a consistent direction, then adds change of direction, then draws the horse in for rest. It sounds like you don't have a respect problem, so I don't think that you would benefit a lot from it.

CA teaches consistent gait using passenger work at the trot and canter and he does not primarily use verbal cues. He uses squeeze, cluck, then spank. He wants the horse to increase gait with a squeeze of the legs. That's his goal. If the horse doesn't speed up with the leg you maintain the squeeze and cluck once. If he still doesn't speed up you still maintain the squeeze and start gently spanking side to side with the mecate rein or quirt. Release when you get him to speed up.

[Peace]

I have found that doing something halfheartedly just because someone else tells you you should is a waste of time.

I think Tootsie has hit the nail on the head. I just don't see the point, and it doesn't look like any fun, so I can't imagine I'd do a very good job of explaining the process to Quanah. Who would, absolutely, be standing in the middle of the round pen with his "lemme get this straight - you want me to do what?" expression on his face.:)

After all, I've been the one telling him for years that we don't run anywhere near Mama, because even though I make interesting noises when he does it, I am not enjoying myself.:D

I have watched this lady work her horse many times.:) In fact, she always offers to let me come in and work him, so I can get the hang of it with a horse who already knows what to do. But since her horse has these little fits in there from time to time - I don't know if it's from stress or joie de vivre, but he'll take off bucking and galloping and carrying on - I have always declined.

I also agree its important to get rid of preconceived notions about how Quanah might react, and this lady, remembering Quanah as a teenage miscreant, definitely expects him to act up. So, not being one to disappoint a lady, I reckon Quanah would oblige her.;)

[jUmPingIsLifE]

CA does not use round penning to teach verbal cues for gaits or to get exercise. He starts by getting a consistent gait in a consistent direction, then adds change of direction, then draws the horse in for rest. It sounds like you don't have a respect problem, so I don't think that you would benefit a lot from it.

CA teaches consistent gait using passenger work at the trot and canter and he does not primarily use verbal cues. He uses squeeze, cluck, then spank. He wants the horse to increase gait with a squeeze of the legs. That's his goal. If the horse doesn't speed up with the leg you maintain the squeeze and cluck once. If he still doesn't speed up you still maintain the squeeze and start gently spanking side to side with the mecate rein or quirt. Release when you get him to speed up.

Yes BUT using his methods it makes it very easy to teach the verbal commands. You just substantute the cluck with the verbal command, or add the verbal command and the cluck together. Once you get the foward movement and teh change of direction I like to refine it with teaching verbal commands. His methods helped me a lot with Tahoe who tends t be hopelesssly lazy but not only does it go foward, backwards left and right without much resistance using CA I was able to teeth him the verbal commands to refine the 'longing for respect'
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I love CA, however if she has a preconcieved notion of what your horse is like it may not help, and I dont know if I would trust any ol' one. ANY NH trainer would be able to help you with your groundwork, find one YOU like. Do what I did, I looked up a Bunch and take things from them all.