Treeless saddles??

[Bebe]

Hi

I'm looking into buying a new saddle and am interested in treeless saddles, primarily because Bebe is very wide and flat backed and it's hard to find a saddle that fits her really well. Her current Thorowgood one is a good fit but I'd like to do better for her.

So, has anyone had experience with any of the new Treeless saddles? I'm having the people that sell the Fitform saddle come out on Sunday and am hoping that will provide the answer but I'd appreciate comments on any of the other treeless saddles.

Thanks
Amanda

PS, Heathers saddles don't come in a wide enough tree to fit my horse, and the gullet isn't wide enough to clear her spine regardless of tree width (which is usually what our saddle fitting problems are a result of). Not sure about the new middle price ranged saddles, when I went to Heathers website the links to the saddles wouldn't work.

[Thinkerbell]

Honestly, I don't know too much about them, but my gut feeling is this: Make sure that it spreads your weight properly over the bearing surface so that it's not just an expencive bareback pad but a proper saddle.

TB

[Maria]

Hi Amanda

I'm sure that a Barry Swain/Heather saddle could be made up wide enough for Bebe. They are expensive but they're made to measure and will last a lifetime. They can also be adjusted. My dressage saddle accommodates my wide cob - and has just - 3 years on - been adjusted by one of Barry's saddlers to fit her changed shape. I think Heather said she'd measure up an even wider Lippi.

I think the new Easi-sit synthetics can also be made up on a very wide tree too - unlike the Thorowgood ones. My friend has just bought a standard dressage saddle from the Saddle Company who also make the Easi-sit saddle and Jill took a very detailed template - not just one measurement behind the withers.

Maria

[kelsey]

I have heard not-so-good things about the treeless saddles. Apparently they can cause chronic back problems for the horse.

On the other hand, the few people that I know who like them think they are fabulous.

I don't think I'd chance it myself.

[Helen Grindley]

Hi Bebe,
I had so many problems getting a saddle to fit my horse that I was in despair ! I eventually had an extra wide english saddle professionaly fitted and we were quite happy for 6 weeks then things went very wrong. My good natured , calm pony went form great to very , very unhappy, . He became very upset when he saw the saddle and paniced when it went on his back.

The chiropractor confirmed that his new saddle was causing me to sit too far back causing it to dig into his back.
She sugested riding bareback once he had recovered to get his confidence back. Whilst he was recovering I found out about treeless saddles (never heard of them before) I was curious so I did some detective work, I had the same worries as above.

I eventually came across the fitform in Horse and Rider and had the Lady out so I could try one.
I ordered one and since it arrived,We havent looked back - We love it . My boy has no fear of it what so ever ( he would tell me if he did !)

I can only give you my opinion from my experience and I havent looked back, I havent jumped in it and as my boy is young we only hack for 1 hr max but so far so good.
You need to try it yourself and make up your own mind, enjoy the demo and dont be affraid to ask questions and express your concerns, good luck with whatever you decide. Let us know how you get on.

[Sue Watson]

Reading through the posts on this message board it is horrifying that there are so many saddlery problems. I would be really interested to know what these professional saddle fitters are actually doing in the process of selling their saddles and what after sales back up is given. Do they actually look at the horses back prior to sale? Is the new saddle tried on the horse with a rider on board at various gaits, ridden in circles and on straight lines? and adjustments made for peculiarities in the horses musculature and are the saddle adjusted as the new flocking settles? Obviously some saddles will have inherent design faults but this can't be the whole story.

[Bebe]

Thanks for the responses so far.

Helen, it's good to hear from someone with experience with these saddles. I have a similar problem in that I have a new saddle fitted and it's fine for a while and then a couple of weeks, months, etc down the line it's causing problems yet the saddle fitter can never find anything that says the saddle doesn't fit. Meanwhile my horse starts to bite when girthed up, runs away when I get the saddle out, etc (not like her at all). We haven't got to that stage with our current saddle but it's only a matter of time if past experiences are to go by.

Sue, my saddle fitter does come out and try various saddles on the horse whilst at the halt. Then we take the ones that fit best at that point and I ride in them at all gaits, turning, etc. Then fit is checked again and my fitter stands on crates or something so he can be higher than the horses hindquarters and he watches us walk and trot both away from and towards him. The only problem is that he isn't a master saddler so can't do repairs, flocking, etc.

Finding someone who can actually flock and adjust the saddles at the same time as fitting them is a nightmare in my area. The only qualified master saddler isn't qualified as a fitter (they came to fit my first saddle with Bebe and I knew before we started it didn't fit - they just said pad it out even though there was no way on earth that would help) so I wouldn't trust them to flock or adjust my saddle, plus they expect you to take it into their shop without them even seeing the horse!!! The travel costs of getting a good fitter who is also a master saddler almost outweighs the cost of a new saddle in some cases (well, not quite but feels like it). So, my only option is to do the best I can with my fitter (who is very good) and then hope for the best.

I'll let you know how the demo goes and what I decide to do.

Amanda

[Heather]

Hi folks,

We can make the saddles in widths from the narrowest to the widest table top you can imagine. The Thorowgood ones are not at all like the Saddle Co ones or Barry Swain- my argument with TG has always been that I am not happy with the bearing surface and I don't like the Prolite in the panel. However to be fair to them, it is a totally production line saddle, and nothng like the new ones.

Barry Swain was the first saddler to introduce the wide bearing surface tree to the UK, based on the tress of traditional Spanish and Portuguese Classical saddles.

The Saddle Co one is not quite so wide as Barry's but not far short and is really flat on teh underside giveing wonderful contact. I am really thrilled with these for the money.

The width of the gullet depends on the horse. If you put a wide gullet on a TB type with more prominent spine, it will pinch it dreadfully. A narrower gullet and wide panel is required i ths case. If the horse is a flat backed warmblood type or Iberian etc, then a wider gullet is OK, but bear in mind the wider the gullet the more the saddle will roll from side to side so it can affect rider balance too, which of course will also affect horse balance.

The treeless saddles have been around for many years- Barry used to make treeless felt hunting saddles up until the '60's when they went out of favour.

Some riders love them and we have investigated the ideas of treeless designs, but there have been a lot of problems with sioe makes as there is no spinal clearance with some of them, and horses have had very sore backs. This is why the tree was devleoped centuries ago to pretct the spine of the horse.

I am not against treeless saddles per se, but care needs to be taken with them, and I think that more r and d work needs to be done on a wide range of horses in all disciplines.


Heather

[Bebe]

Heather

Thanks for your reply. If the gullet between the panels were wide enough Bebe would be quite happy in a wide fitting tree, it's just that we had to go with the extra wide to get the clearance on either side of her spine. She actually isn't particularly wide at the withers. The gullet doesn't need to be tremendously wide, just wider than your average saddle.

The best guess my local saddler could come up with (was just talking to them rather than had them come out) was to go with a wide fitting trein a close contact style saddle so the weight bearing area was larger. However, this seems more like making the best of a bad lot rather than actually finding something that is right for the horse.

It's the spinal clearance, or rather lack of it, that worries me with a treeless saddle but it's worth having a go in the demo saddle if nothing else. I have ridden Bebe bareback for 1-2 hours at a time and she's always been fine with it so I'm hopeful.

Is there anywhere that I can get info on your new range of saddles. As I posted originally, the link given on another post for the new easi-sit range won't work for me.

Thanks
Amanda

[Heather]

HI Amanda,

If you email me at heather@eclipse.co.uk I can email you over the pic of the saddle.

Heather

[Sue Watson]

Just to chuck in my two pennyworth - be aware that even the thinest of saddlecloths under a saddle can have a dramatic effect on the fit - especially of the gullet width.

[Mehitabel]

i'm on the mary wanless "ride with your mind" mailing list, and there's been a lot of people ralking about treeless saddles lately, with opinions on both sides. i don't know if you can see the threads on the site, but if you can't and you want to, i can forward you the emails if you like.

[Heather]

HI Es,

I have seen this discussion on RWYM but don't feel that it is my place to discuss it there. I would love to have chipped in my two penn'orth at times though!

Heather

[Mehitabel]

i was interested, but not convinced. some of the posters put me in mind of the type of people who embrace an "alternative" method of horse care and then say that everyone who does things "traditionally" is terribly cruel and narrow minded and outdated. rather too evangelical about it for my taste!

[Bebe]

Es,

I'll try to view the messages from the Mary Wanless email list, if I can't I'll get in touch via this board. I can pretty much gloss over all the evangelical stuff,a lot of the dressage boards I visit can get a bit like that so I'm used to taking the actual info and ignoring the rest.

Thanks
Amanda

[Heather]

I know just what you mean, Es and Amanda- some things almost become like a cult. I have found this with some devotees of the Strasser method, but then was present at a clinic where some of these folk were and witnessed a 'Classical' trainer using horrendous pressure on the horses, which none of these people seemed to find excessive. I walked out, as if I had stayed I would have done the clinician a mischief.

Heather

[Mehitabel]

what really gets me is that often, although obviously not always, people cite training methods that are obviously cruel - the example that springs to mind is how monty roberts described seeing horses being broken in when he first came to the notice of the general public - and imply, by not saying otherwise, that that's how everyone does it and that everyone except them are vicious and cruel. i can't tell you how many of my non-horsey friends asked me if that was how i broke horses in and shouldn't i be ashamed of myself.

[Heather]

I was furious with Monty Roberts when a couple of years ago on Sky TV news, they did a piece on him accompanied by Alison Bridge, the Editor or Horse and Rider mag. Monty showed pictures of horse roped and tied up horrendously, and strongly implied that this is how it was done in the UK too. Alison did not say anything to refute this and like you Es, I had people have a go at me about the cruel methods used to break in horses, thinking that is how we would do this too.

Heather

[larri]

Sorry!

I was interested in going down the treeless saddle route for Safi's first saddle, primarily a portuguese/ spanish one and was really just wondering what your opinions were.
She will be wearing full portuguese tack eventually, but I need something for the next year/two to school with...any thoughts or better suggestions???

cheers!

[senjj]

Any chance of emailing me the discussion?

jenkinsj@cf.ac.uk