drummer goes nuts...........

[Dummer&Drummer]

.........at feeding time still and not sure to ignore it or deal with it and how NOT to make it worse

my saintly horse changes when he knows his bucket is arriving (all horses fed at some time in stable at new yard) he behaves like this period at old yard to, once he knows his food is on the way.

i not sure if i ignore it or deal with it.

he does not hurt me or push me and i can put his bucket down safely

at feeding time my quiet placid horse goes nuts!!!!! firstlyhe chucks his head round and warns all of the horses off. then he starts whinniying and this gets louder at the same time he starts to run round the stable and to and from the door and this gets more intense with the noise he makes

then i put in bucket, and leave him to it and walk away

i notice a few months ago he gobbles it so fast he chucks it everywhere. now he initially gobbles and then slows down and enjoys it peacefully :rolleyes:

any suggestions - he is the only ROWDY horse in the barn :eek: :) but away from food the most all round saintly one :)

[puzzles]

i wouldn't worry ersonally. this is a minor issue that can take a while to resolve.
however, more recent research has found that horses thrive better on a less rigid routine: if you feed at around the same time each day then your horse will quickly learn to anticipate his food - how clever of him! ;-D
if you begin to fed a little earlier or later - gradually building up to uo top an hour earlier or later than usual, he will not be able to snticipate his routine so well.only give im his food when he is not evading/pushing you around; by all means never stand there waiting for ages until he blows up. what i mean is teach him, in-hand (and not arounf feed times!) to learn to back away from you, come forwards and go sideways shen you ask, using the pressure and release objective. when this is mastered, at feed times always ask him to back away from you while you enter his stable and place the feed, then allow him to come forwards. if done consistantly and clearly, he will soon learn that he only gets fed when he is more respectful of your space: this will also build up his trust in you, and may thereofr help his anxieties to subside, if just a little.
i also strongly recommend that he always has ad-lib forage and some toys to play with to distract him and possibly help to quieten him.
for example -
try bobbing apples in his water;
hide sliced fruit and vegetables in his hay;
hang whole fruits and vegetables, using baler twine, from the ceiling at varying lengths;
place a branch of willow/birch/chestnut/beech in his stable for him to chew at and strip as he pleases, as he would in the wild/field.

these all stimulate his mind and keep to him happily busy.
good luck!

[Esther.D]

I would agree with puzzles that it is not a major issue to worry about, some really good ideas there :)

[KateWooten]

Also, and I know it's not generally feasible on a livery yard ... the horse doesn't NEED to be fed :eek: I mean, he's not going to die if he misses one meal. I have used that as a bit of a wake-up call for one of mine. She wasn't listening, wasn't prepared to move out of my way so I could get in and get her bucket ... and I guess I wasn't prepared to get mad with her ... if she can't focus for those 30 seconds and control her behaviour then I can't go in and feed her. When I came out to try again 2 hours later the whole situation was resolved and she was very humble and deferential. After that, although she's back to her normal sweet self (not humble) she's not a pain either.

[puzzles]

KateWooten - i'm sorry, but i disagree.
Horses won't understand what you want them to do unless to teach them; you wouldn't, without any warning nor any obvious anger at all, 'forget' to feed a child at all for all of 24 hours or so because it was behaving excitedly at meal times . . . so why do it to a horse? the horse here is likely to become VERY anxious and may resort to box walking, chewing his stable door, etc, until you next show up. it will probably prove to be counter-productive and there is no logic that can teach the horse why it even happened. therefore the behaviour will continue or build up again as it was before, not solving anything.
what you need to teach him is that meal times are not anything to get worried or worked up about. if you miss out a meal, or even more feeds when he behaves like this, until he 'learns' or whatever, he will get mroe and more anxious until you really do have a problem.
in the past he may have been deproved of foof, giving reason for his anxious and anticipating behaviour.
sorry for going on, and if i sound rude!
:-D

[Dummer&Drummer]

lol drums has stable toys and veg in his hay and loves playing bob the apple :) maybe i should incorporate all three everyday at the same time :D

i would try and give him his stable ball just before feed maybe ( but i think that would be on borrowed time, he'll anticipate that after a short time)

he does back up, its not quiet but he does back up from voice and body language

i think it is the strict routine thing, anticipation, not helped by winter/dark eves so it is the same time. will be easier in the summer and also we will be problably moving out of barn stables and into the other stables that are more seperate (not built yet) giving us a bit more freedom

it is the anticpation of it coming, it is just too exciting :rolleyes:

maybe i ought to just go on and feed him before the other horses (but is that fair on them) etc and then they wil all eat later aside from him :rolleyes:

it not really a problem, like i say he does back up and i chuck it down for him, just he is creating an unnecessary scene and maybe a bit bad mannered :)

[Dummer&Drummer]

drums needs to be fed every day he is on antilam (for now as precaution will alter this after the spring, all being well )

[KateWooten]

Like I say, I know it's not always feasible, but delaying for an hour or two worked wonders for my mare. The trouble with a very strict food routine is that the horse will know that he is entitled to his food right now, and at that point he can treat you however he wants becuase there is no consequence for him.

[capalldubh]

D&D - is there any chance you could try giving him a small amount of his hay ration while you make up the buckets?

Ignore this suggestion if he is already standing in stable with a full haynet in front of him while creating a stir ;)

Meant to say - he's probably worse at the moment because he's still in a relatively new place for him - and he doesn't really know the others all that well yet. Who knows? They could be mean dinner stealers...

[Dummer&Drummer]

haynet and a big pile on the floor :rolleyes: and apples in his water AND a suede to munch on :eek: it is not exactly the same time every day, give or take an hour, he just seems to know when me and yo goes off food is coming and the second he sees me ...............BANG he starts :)

huh no one would steal drummers dinner lol he warns them all off first throwing his pretty head at them in turn with his ears back (who could believe this) he is so placid and with other horses !!!!! acutally he does not care much re other horses turned out with him as long as he can graze. they can follow him round or not, their call

[puzzles]

yeah, for so long as he trusts that his feed will come, he should begin to settle more.

incorperating all 3 toys may well help more, drummer, and you've just made an ide pop into my head! - how about putting his feed/s into a play ball?! this will keep him busier for longer and may well help to stop the meal-time blues -
worth a try?

erc . . . or hide the feed?!

the 'moving-away' exercise i described has been recommended by Kelly Marks (haha, so it must work!). it has helped every time i have used it, but may or may not for your situation as he is not being bolshy (yet!)
;-D

[puzzles]

also, turning him out 24/7could well help as he should feel more relaxed, especially with company.

[Dummer&Drummer]

yes i can try that, he loves his feed ball

i wonder if i just put it in his stable BEFORE he comes in (as he does whinney at his ball although does not go as mad) :rolleyes:

trouble is the novelty probably wont last him long till his bucket comes out

i can have a play round though and see

maybe drums just ought to have his food waiting in his stable initially and his play ball which should tie him over till others eat ??? and it means im not bringing it all for him as it is already there

you may get thread in a few weeks though saying 'i dont understand it, drums drags me in from field to stable' :rolleyes: ;)

i dont know - he is doing any real harm

and re anticipation and routine, when he hears my car pull up in yard, he walks over to the gate and waits for me

[puzzles]

yes i can try that, he loves his feed ball

i wonder if i just put it in his stable BEFORE he comes in (as he does whinney at his ball although does not go as mad) :rolleyes:

you're right - he may well start the same problem in the field ratehr than the stable! maybe a bit of both, so help prevent anticipation?

you may get thread in a few weeks though saying 'i dont understand it, drums drags me in from field to stable' :rolleyes: ;)

heehee!!!

and re anticipation and routine, when he hears my car pull up in yard, he walks over to the gate and waits for me
aaaahhh!

[Dummer&Drummer]

puzzle i missed one of your replies

at dealers where i brought drums (he was there for over 12 months as they liked him and he was not really for sale)

horses are in most of the time and on automatic feeder - so i have presumed a bucket delivered to stable would be exciting and a bit of a novelty - but does that warrant letting get away with a harmless, but, bad habit ?? or does it not matter

[puzzles]

well, it is a very common habit and you can't stop a horse looking forward to it's feed. it isn't anything really to be concerned about - unless it gets worse - and as horses don't think like us and their lives revolve around food - especially is he has been deprived at all - can you blame him?

[Dummer&Drummer]

i think i may just carry on doing what i am doing then

ignore it and dont even look at him, open stable door, say back up and put food down and walk away and leave him in peace and see how that goes for a couple of months

will think about adding stable snack ball as well beforehand

[KateWooten]

If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting ! If you're happy with that, that's fine... but you're concerned enough to ask the question ! All horses get excited when its dinner time.. but they still have to behave. Same as all horses have new scary things to meet on hacks ... they still have to behave. Understanding their excitement/fear etc is not the same as accepting their response. You can accept that Drummer is keen to be fed, without accepting his behaviour. He can, and should, control his emotions.

[teabiscuit]

i had a dear sweet chestnut mare that used to lose the plot at tea time

never crossed my mind that it was a problem, she used to hear the rattle of a feed bucket at 50 miles away :D so could never get away with altering the feed times-no point as the sounds were her cue for feed


she was so good in every other way, and didn't have a mean bone in her body that i just thought "cool, lady you can have this quirk on me"

soft? maybe, do i care? no

it worked for me and her :)

[Dummer&Drummer]

do you not think that once he realises that once he realises that he gets this every day and it is HIS this will settle then?

i not so sure this is bad behaviour or not

to barge me or barge stable door or not move out of my way with the bucket is but the fact he backs up when i give it to him does that not rule him being bad to him being excited out?

not challenging you, just asking ;) :) info collecting

i not bothered, just seems a shame he has to get so het up over something that he is going to have and is all his anyway x

he does seem to be slowing the 'eating' pace down and letting himself have time to enjoy it (after he has gobbled 2 mouthfuls) he seems quite peaceful

one thing to mention is that and this is only a maybe.... it maybe associated with me, mum, i went to the stable unexpectedly the other morning (yo feeds one of her horses in the am) and when drums saw me, although on a lower scale he started acting like i was going to feed him

the other side is at weekends he is in and out being ridden and no feed association with me and stable there, so problaby nothing - just thought it was worth mentioning

[capalldubh]

OK, here's a little random idea and I know this has been done with dogs barking in a rescue centre - maybe the principal would work with Drummer?

Bring him in as usual. Put a little bowl just inside the stable.

Take a handful of whatever he gets for dinner out of his dinner.

Lurk outside or near his stable. Wait until he is either standing still or not whinnying (you choose one). Make a clucking sound and chuck a small amount of feed into the bowl.
Wait till he's finished, and then wait for the standing still or quiet again, cluck and chuck food in bowl. Keep doing it until he's spending longer standing still or keeping quiet.

Then start to extend the length of time you want him to be quiet before clucking. Obviously, you'll need to reward an especially long quiet spell by giving him all his dinner :D

It's effectively clicker training, but you're not feeding by hand, and you're just giving him a bit of what he's about to get already.

Down side is it could take a while to work and means you spend time lurking about outside his stable when you could be doing feeds or something. Up side is - he'll know what you want (where now he doesn't know you think it would be nice if he was quiet and calm).

It's just an idea - if anybody would like a go at making it better, that would be great :)

[teabiscuit]

Bianca was like that, very respectful of who ever was giving her the feed, just very excited anticepating it

it never bothered me, so we carried on like this till she died, bless her, aged 30 and still loving her grub :D

does it bother you?

trouble is it's easy to make things worse and if it doesn;t bother you i'd leave him be, but that's just my personal opinion :p :D

[Dummer&Drummer]

yes i know what you are saying teabiscuit talking another language to drums it would be easy to make things worse :)

it does not bother me, would just be nice for him not to get so het up about it

(where now he doesn't know you think it would be nice if he was quiet and calm).

thanks cap, this is the problem and what i would like to teach him,but not so as to aggrivate the situation like teabiscuit has suggested, eg i DONT want to stand there with his food till he is quiet this would hinder the situation and he would become to upset, i believe, to really use his brain and assess what i am trying to ask (if that makes sense)

i thought last week he was settling, there were a couple of eves he did very little and made little noise - could the mare and foal incident of upset him ?

[puzzles]

it could well have . . .

[Harry Hobbes]

If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting !
Saying this another way: You get what you reward.

Or stating this from a behavioralist perspective, in the context of this issue, positive reinforcement (giving him food) ensures a repetition of the behavior.

one thing to mention is that and this is only a maybe.... it maybe associated with me, mum, i went to the stable unexpectedly the other morning (yo feeds one of her horses in the am) and when drums saw me, although on a lower scale he started acting like i was going to feed him He's been trained to act this way; probably through positive reinforcement.

If you wish to understand the behavioral science, then do a search on "operant conditioning" and "operant (behavior) conditioning."
it does not bother me, would just be nice for him not to get so het up about it
If Drummer's current behavior is what you want, then you're doing the right thing by rewarding his behavior with food.

If you wish him to adopt other behavior, then only reward that other behavior. For example, if you want him to approach his food in an easy and relaxed manner, and not rush, then do not allow him to have the feed until he settles down, waits patiently and approaches calmly.

Because food is the reward, he'll figure out what you want in about 35 nanoseconds. (In other words, he'll be highly motivated to be rewarded.)

Best regards,
Harry

[Dummer&Drummer]

ok things esculated last night
just doing thread in general

how do i not give him food whilst he is going nuts AND other horses are eating around him ???

i could feed him earlier when it is just me and him ? and he could have his snack ball while they eat

last night i gave him his snack ball 5 mins before he had his food, he was quiet when i gave him snack ball and was busy with it, and therefore, quiet when i went back in with his bucket ??

seperate issue, wat happened afer :eek: thread in general

[Harry Hobbes]

how do i not give him food whilst he is going nuts AND other horses are eating around him ???

i could feed him earlier when it is just me and him ? and he could have his snack ball while they eat
Option A: Feed them all together and drive off any horse approaching you in an unacceptable manner. This means that if Drummer is the only horse acting up, then just focus on him and ignore the others. The others will figure out pretty quick that you're working with Drummer and will get out of your way (and go back to eating). Caveat: If you cannot move among the other horses safely - if they're not safe to be around - then go to Option B or C.

Option B: If you cannot move around the other horses safely to drive Drummer off alone when they are feeding, drive all of them off their feed when Drummer acts up. In other words, you have behavior issues in multiple horses, so treat them all the same. (In one sense, this is preferable, as they will all learn that when someone acts up, they all get pushed off the feed. This tends to leverage "peer pressure" to behave.)

Option C: Feed Drummer separately for one week, driving him away from the feed until he behaves. After one week of the correct behavior, re-introduce him back into the group meals. BUT you may expect him to revert to his prior behavior as a test of your consistency in the herd environment. When he reverts, immediately drive him off his food (as in Option A or B). When he figures out that you're consistently enforcing correct behavior, he'll behave.

Driving the horse off means that you chase him away, but don't chase after him. You don't want him to leave the area, you just want him to know that he gets access to the feed when he behaves. Don't drive him far; just away from the food; say about 20-30 feet away. He'll get mad and throw a hissy fit just like any spoilt child, but that's okay. Just ignore the temper tantrum and allow him an opportunity to come in when he settles down. If he is again rude or wants to throw a tantrum in proximity to you, drive him off again.

After about three or four times driving him off, he'll get the message and come in calmer. (If he's really determined to maintain the unacceptable behavior, you may have to drive him off a half-dozen times or so before he realizes that you really do want him to behave.)

As long as he's rude, he gets to wait. When he's behaving properly, then let him come in and you leave the immediate vicinity. (Don't hang around next to him.)

The above is strictly for correcting rude behavior when you (or any human) is in proximity to the horse. Do not intervene when the horses are pushing each other off their feed when humans are not in proximity. That's just them enforcing their pecking order, and the human should stay out of it (unless a human is within "getting hurt distance").

Best regards,
Harry

[Dummer&Drummer]

harry, thank you but all of this happens in drummers stable. the stables are quite open though and in close quaters (they all in small barn tog) but there are no horses

ill do a thread i made some good progress last night, thanks to you guys, just took a bit of thinking :)

[puzzles]

true, he has most likely learned that making a lot of fuss = food! even if it doesn't. he probably thinks that unless he does act like this, he won't get it - theefore he i only doing what he has (unintentionally) been taught to do.