Retraining a horse who knows his stuff, but who needs more muscle

[Scarlett 001]

I was unsure whether to post in "training of horse" or "dressage" section. Thought I would try here as the question is specific to dressage riding. My horse is an ex-school horse (for 6 years before I got him), mainly used for jumping. He was very thin, and had poor hind and neck muscles etc., when I bought him. It's been 1 1/2 years now and he is in good shape now. He is 16 years.

It became apparent during long reining work I did with him for 4 months last summer (while new custom dressage saddle was being built) that he did *understand* contact and at some point in his distant past he had some pretty decent training. He knew what we wanted and took to it readily when long reining. His hind end is weaker, but he is starting to develop muscles and improvements are happening.

Now I am riding again as the new saddle arrived. My RI and I are working on getting a horse who *knows* about contact and riding well, but has *not been asked to ride in a contact or an outline* for many years, to begin to redevelop the necessary muscles. During long reining, he accepted contact and did his best to work from behind to the best of his abilities. His head was lower than a trained horse would carry it and was about vertical - his poll was not the highest point - from doing some homework, I thought that for a horse at his stage of muscle development (remember he was beginning with *very negative* muscle development) that this overall head position was okay. And then as he gained core strength in his muscles and I improved in my riding, he would be able to start moving from behind better and in due course lift his head and neck more.

For now, he seems most comfortable with his head a bit lower and about vertical or just a bit in front of vertical. Is it okay for his head to be lower like this at this stage of training (as long as he is not tucking it in or anything)? So far his hind muscles are developing well from this work. I am of course working on getting him moving through the hind by using my aids more effectively etc. What kinds of exercises/things should one be doing to encourage the correct muscle development and to help with his training? I wanted to hear people's thoughts on retraining a horse who understands contact, but is in the muscle development stage. What are the usual stages in training in this kind of situation?


Sorry this is quite so long. :o

[KarinUS]

Have you considered that how low he carries his head might be affected by breed characteristics? Who are you comparing him to? For a typical TB his neck may just sit lower than a warm blood, etc.
Just standing in the pasture doing absolutely nothing Minose's neck is set much further up and head held higher than DJ's, kwim?

[Scarlett 001]

Good point, this is the kind of conversation I wanted.

He looks comfortable, he looks good to me. I believe that for the moment it is just fine and I don't ask for more of him. I just wondered if this was a typical, necessary stage in training or whatever. Do most dressage horses go through a phase like this in training? They surely can't instantly obtain the head carriage you see in competitions, and so there must be phases in training?

By the way, my RI is not concerned about this (has not brought this up or anything) and she is happy with how he is moving. This is just me reading too many books about outline and contact and thinking too much! :eek: :rolleyes:

p.s. I'd welcome a broader discussion about this topic, not necessarily just how it pertains to my horse's situation.

[KarinUS]

Here is the page on Dutch Warmbloods (http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/dutchwarmblood/index.htm)for example with a typical dressage horse/photo. If you find time read the actual pages you will see this on the Thoroughbred (http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/thoroughbred/index.htm)page:
The head should be correctly proportioned to the rest of the body, displaying a good flat forehead and wide-set intelligent eyes. Carried relatively low, the head should sit well on a neck which is somewhat longer and lighter than in other breeds.
I think if Skeet's head would come up it would be an indication of hollowing in his case and exactly teh opposite of what you are trying to achieve. If he rounds nicely and stays at or in front of the vertical then that would be sufficient (for me).

[Scarlett 001]

You are like me in many ways - always delving and doing the research! :) Can you imagine if I ever manage to visit you? We'd be up all night yakking and talking about ideas. :)

Interesting to think about, isn't it? There is another horse at my barn who rides before me, and the horse rides with his head quite a bit higher than Skeeter, and that is the way my trainer likes for this horse (he is a percheron x). He is not any more advanced than Skeeter in dressage, so it must just be that this carriage works for that horse. And yet my RI seems to like Skeeter riding in quite a different head carriage and is happy with it. I've always wondered about how these 2 horses were riding quite differently, at similar beginner dressage training stages.

[KarinUS]

Actually I remembered it from Chev conformation lesson. ;)
Percheron cross just standing around:
http://users.wireweb.net/rdbaker/MinoseDecember06.jpg
Thoroughbred just standing around:
http://users.wireweb.net/rdbaker/djsideview.jpg
See the difference? And that's in sleepy mode...

[Scarlett 001]

No I can't see the difference as the piccies are not showing. :( I'll try again in a minute.

I seem to recall Chev liked how Skeet's neck was set - I seem to recall she said it was in true tb form!

[julia gulia]

is this a private conversation.....or can I cut in?:p

[Scarlett 001]

is this a private conversation.....or can I cut in?:p

:D

Join on in!!! I am supposed to prepping a class to teach, but am finding chatting to Karin so much more enjoyable! The more, the merrier (and the more distracting for me, which is good! :p )

p.s. Karin, pics still not working by the way.

[julia gulia]

:D

Join on in!!! I am supposed to prepping a class to teach, but am finding chatting to Karin so much more enjoyable! The more, the merrier (and the more distracting for me, which is good! :p )

I know what you mean:D I enjoy chatting with Karin too!!!!!:

I don't have much to add but just wanted to tell you that when I bought Barney....he had been a trail horse for six years and then he arrived at the barn where I worked part time where he became a school horse. He had to learn how to jump( which he did exceptionally well in spite of his conformational challenges:)
When I bought him I had so many people telling me what I should be doing in order to have him work in a "correct " outline.
I listened for a while but it just wasn't working out. We hit the trails and pressed the reset button. I can't begin to tell you how many hills we walked up and down. He needed to get into shape. I didn't even think about his head set.......:o
Then one day I looked at him and thought "wow":eek: You don't look like the same horse!!!!! He was carrying himself....was engaged and really carrying himself .His head set wasn't text book...it wasn't what the people around me said it should be...... but it was as it should be for him. At twenty five years old...he looks good...he feels good...and I am happy with how things have worked out:)
Don't get too hung up on what "should be" just work towards what "could be."
And have fun!!!!!!!!:p

Now....get back to studying!!!!!!:mad: :D

[KarinUS]

:D pictures now working (had to nurse baby to sleep before I could FTP...)

[ClaireBear_nz]

Scarlett, I at one point had a TB who'd been a show hunter horse before my sister (and then me!) got him. He naturally carried his head low because thats what he'd been taught to do. She then for a 1/2 warmblood 1/2 TB, who went like a giraffe, due to riding. Sunny, the TB, tried so hard to go properly, but he couldnt physically because of his shape, he had a HUGE head on this little TB neck, and a midget rider with no legs!

Sparks, to my knowledge, had had no proper dressage schooling, and by vet estimate is about 25 years (she only cost $500 :D ) To be honest, I'm not a very good rider, I fiddle something chronic, Sparks has a 16 hand back with 14 hand peg legs at each corner. However, she now will move in an outline, and wins the occasional ribbon in unaffiliated dressage. The time that she shied at the judges car and sat on the C marker she didn't do too well though...

Anyway, how Skeeter is going now probably won't reflect on how he can go, you're doing a brilliant job, he looks amazing :D

[Scarlett 001]

Thanks ClaireBear for sharing your experiences and your kind words. :)


Then one day I looked at him and thought "wow":eek: You don't look like the same horse!!!!! He was carrying himself....was engaged and really carrying himself .His head set wasn't text book...it wasn't what the people around me said it should be...... but it was as it should be for him. At twenty five years old...he looks good...he feels good...and I am happy with how things have worked out:)


Wow, what a nice story! :D

The funniest thing is I had no intention of even thinking about head carriage or outlines when I bought Skeeter - heck when I bought Skeeter I was happy just to plod about on a horse! :D Then when we long reined last summer, I realized how happy he was in that "long reining" frame that he had found for himself (it was never forced on him - he just started doing it the second the long reins were clipped on!). He was so relaxed, yet perky and interested. I am tickled pink at Skeet - these questions are in no way are expressing a frustration at things. Just trying to understand.

[julia gulia]

Thanks ClaireBear for sharing your experiences and your kind words. :)



Wow, what a nice story! :D

The funniest thing is I had no intention of even thinking about head carriage or outlines when I bought Skeeter - heck when I bought Skeeter I was happy just to plod about on a horse! :D Then when we long reined last summer, I realized how happy he was in that "long reining" frame that he had found for himself (it was never forced on him - he just started doing it the second the long reins were clipped on!). He was so relaxed, yet perky and interested. I am tickled pink at Skeet - these questions are in no way are expressing a frustration at things. Just trying to understand.

Gosh.....I didn't mean to suggest that you were frustrated....sorry if it came off that way:o

[Scarlett 001]

Gosh.....I didn't mean to suggest that you were frustrated....sorry if it came off that way:o

No, no need to apologize. I just explained that I was not frustrated, as I thought my post might have come across that way in hindsight - nothing you suggested. :)

[poohsmate]

Dont get too hung up on what "should be" just work towards what "could be."
And have fun!!!!!!!!:p
: :D


haha! i keep telling her this julia:D :D :D :D

[teabiscuit]

well lots of pointers in these posts are ringing bells with my and Finnigans story

firstly i'd forget about how much Skeeter already knows-i had a lesson with an advanced dressage rider who told me finn had had top class training in the past- i bred him and kept him-who's been sneaking in giving my horse top class training while i was asleep?

just work with what you see in front of you

secondly, Finn needed lots and lots of walking up hills just as Julia suggests, to build up muscle and fitness that comes in very useful when you're schooling, i also find it easier to get an outline up hills for some reason :confused:

third, finn will now go into an outline upon request *cheers about time too :D *, but he does feel like he's ploughing into the ground, he goes really onto his forhand. to counter this, my RI (a different one) tells me to do lateral work ("do a little bit shoulder in" is her favourite remark), and lots of walk trot transitions, one every 3 or 4 strides

this gets him up off his shoulders and we keep the outline too

fourth, yes i'm told it is a stage in their training that they tend to have to go through, and you have to ask for the right outline, get a result then let them rest when they tell you they are tired


sorry to blather on so, but we seem to be at such similar stages, everything you post resonates with me, and makes me think even more about how things are going with finn, me and my RI.

if you find anything i posted of any use, or that it resonated with you, i'd love to hear back

if you think it's all tosh, or any of it it tosh, that's cool too
x

ETA the walking up hills still forms an important part of our training-i get up early 3 times a week just to fit it in before work. i missed out this last couple of months due to the dark mornings, and i could surely tell it. he was so unfit in lessons and found the work much harder.

delighted that it is just light enough to start again and am looking forward to reaping the benefits :D

[mooserider01]

OMGOODNESS! This thread is perfect for what I'm kinda stuck on right now in my training! crazy! :)

Okay so I just started dressage, last summer is when I began with my 5 year old QH gelding. This winter it has been way to cold for me to ride and work him so he's pretty much been on a break. I'm starting to ride and work him more now as it warms up.

I'm currently not with my trainer anymore, cause after I did my research I've realized I didn't like her training and what I'm learning. And so I'm starting on my own and have decided to really focus on the German training pyramid and go classical.

When I was with my trainer, we worked my horse in an "outline" right away which is the beginning of all the flaws. He was grounded and totally earthbound with the forehand. He rounded his neck way too much and tho it looked "nice" it made him even more heavier on the forehand and restricted good forward movement making me have to use stronger aids and bump him every stride and all that crap. His head not to mention went behind the vertical. I didn't know about all this till I really did my homework.

During this winter I took use of my spare time, being cooped up inside to do my research. Since I'm starting up again in riding, I've set my mind to letting him stretch his neck and let him, in a way, have his head and do all I can to train him to not be in an outline at this point. He has to be forward and relaxed enough before I can start with a contact and let him find himself and establish a good outline. My plan is to do lots of longing, letting him stretch his neck down and get him going forward, then when riding, work on first getting him to be forward and be quick to my aids and then for him to find his rhythm and relaxation and then go from there.

It's gunna be hard and difficult, and I'm 14. I would have a different trainer but I don't have the money to as all of it goes toward board. If anyone has any tips or advice for me, I'm all ears and just so eager to learn :) You can email me if you wish. :D

Goodluck in your training and riding everyone :)

Sincerely,
Lisha

[BeachRiding]

I love this thread! very informative.