Laminitis

[scrappydoo]

Found my horse in the field hardly able to move, Managed to get him stabled. Hes a 4 year old heavy weight cob and a little lean, he did show a little footy on one hoof durning the summer. He livesout 24/7 with a grass muzzle almost most the summer cause he can jump out of the electric fencing 4.6ft high and help him self to an extra 40 acres. ive found out today that the farmer does give him a few nuts but i would hardly call it a hard feed as the other horse eats most off them joined by the pet sheep. Now im worried sick and wondering......

Is it the few nuts ?
A peice of hay i put out yesturday nite the first time this winter ?
The Frosty ground and two foot of snow?
How much damage could he have ?

i would be greatful for any other experience

[Afellpony]

Laminitis can also be caused by factors other than being out on grass.

[Pink's lady]

Have you had the vet out to confirm? It sound more like an abcess.......they usuall cause 5/5 lameness.

Frosty grass can cause lamintis but it seems unlike if he's not prone. You can get concussion and stress laminitis so if he's been thundering about on hard frozen ground in a panic it's a possiblity.

[scrappydoo]

Yer i know stress..galloping around,ect ect been reading all about it, but most seem to be horror stories, just wondered if anyone has found their horse hardly able to move with laminitus and then got them sound again in a few days without any serious damage such as dropped pedal bone, ect.

[Pink's lady]

If it is laminitis you need to get the feet xrayed to find out the damage - that's the only way you can tell if there has been degree's of rotation.

The out come depends entirely on medical management now. He needs to be on deep think bedding with frog supports and possibly wedges, pain killers and minimal feed.

Being hobbling lame with laminitis means a severe attack and will take month to heal.

[scrappydoo]

vets comming in morning, i given him first aid, bute, deep bed , rugged and bangaged up with cusion support.

Its not an absese, he has a rapid pulse in both pasterns and is shiffting weight from leg to leg hes also been lying down in the field to ease the pain.

It just worries me cause for all i know he could of had it for some time from what ive been reading cause not all horses show lamness in acute stages.

[Pink's lady]

he could of had it for some time

Unlikely. He would have been foot sore and stumbly for a couple for days at most. It sounds more like an acute attack.

You've done the best thing for him. Make sure he gets nothing but a small amount of poor quality hay and plenty of drinking water.

It's not to to cure in a couple of days I'm afraid - you'll be looking at weeks of box rest. But if you've caught it early he will hopefully have no pedal bone rotation and will be back to normal once this bout has healed.

[scrappydoo]

thanks i hope so,

Just been to see him and whilst i was there he had two pees. I have also noticed he has a swollen sheath ... could it be cushings or too much protien? oh god thats what too much reading does for you? but just all seems to tie in. cushings causes laminitis. Hes that fluffy its hard to judge his coat, will get the vet to do some blood as well.

[Pink's lady]

He's 4yrs old? In which case he is far too young to have cushings.

There aren't that many causes of swollen sheat but one is a lack of movement and therefore lymphatic return. If he's been sore and standing still for hours his lymphatic drainage won't be very good and fluid will build up in his legs sheat and ventral abdomen.

Give the vet a call now - you'll get through to an emergency vet. They will tell you if it's an emergency and needs attention now (which acute laminitis really is) or if he can last out till tommorow.

[scrappydoo]

Yes thats what i thought, youngest case ever reported is an 8 year old, so he is a bit too young.

I called my vet told him what i was going to do and he said they would be nothing else he could do other that give him an injection for the pain. By the time hed called me back he was eating the straw and shuffling around the stable i felt an idiot one minute hes dying with pain, next minute hes flying around on his hind legs looking for his next meal. This is before the bute has chance to kick in.

Hed better come out first thing in the morning !!!

Ive had to muzzle him even though the straw is drenched in watered down JsFluid.

[scrappydoo]

he can still drink plenty though.

[Pink's lady]

Is he insured for vet bills? In which case I would have his feet x-rayed to check he's not had any pedal rotation. And he may need heart-bar shoes on for a while if so (at £150 a set:eek: )

You can't starve him totally - if you don't give him anything at all he'll colic. If he's happy to eat straw and it's fairly good quality I would mix some into the little hay he's getting to pad it out.

[scrappydoo]

Just thought hed end up with a burnt jsfluid mouth, and he once got colic with stuffing too much wheat straw. He also eats paper and rubber matting, wondered why his previous owners called him Hoover.

I think your right though, hes got a small haynet now with some of that haylage for laminitic horses. Hope thats mostly fibre ? What do you think ?

[Pink's lady]

Haylage isn't suitable for laminitic horses- (it's got a high sugar content) - he should be on poor quality or soaked hay and can be padded out with straw.

Can he actually eat his hay if he's got a muzzle on? You might need to give him it loose so he can get at it.

[scrappydoo]

Hes only insured 3rd party :( Been a long time since i had a horse xrayed cant belive its that expensive now. think its best though for a peice of mind. He he had any damage, would he come sound quickly ? Should i wait a week ?

[scrappydoo]

god im getting worried now, no his muzzle is off now, the haylage ive given him is a small hand full but it the special low suger one for horses with laminitis, it has the lamintis trade approval mark on the packaging, is that still not suitable do think?

[Pink's lady]

Xrays are really expensive (you'd be looking at £300 or so for a set) so if the vet is sure theres been very little damage I would leave it and see how it goes.

If he's not rotated he'll be sore for a couple of weeks (it sound like quite a severe acute case) and will need weeks of gentle walking. He won't be back in full work until the summer at least.

If he has rotated it will take much longer (6months+) and will probably need remedial shoeing for a long time. He should eventually become sound though.

Lamitic feed is for horses prone to laminitis, not those who have it. I wouldn't be giving any haylage to a lamitic horse. He also needs to be eating fairly constantly so a tiny bit isn't going to be enough. I would either double bag hay in very small holed nets, soaked and mixed with straw, or put his muzzle back on and have it loose on the floor (check he can actually eat it with the muzzle on though)

[scrappydoo]

Phoned my blacksmith this afternoon he is comming on monday if hes less tender, hes suggested the heart bar and will fit them for £55. He will trim him first and pad out his frog then come back when he thinks hes ready to fit the support shoes

[Joyscarer]

Is he insured for vet bills? In which case I would have his feet x-rayed to check he's not had any pedal rotation. And he may need heart-bar shoes on for a while if so (at £150 a set:eek: )

You can't starve him totally - if you don't give him anything at all he'll colic. If he's happy to eat straw and it's fairly good quality I would mix some into the little hay he's getting to pad it out.


Trouble is with claiming on insurance, you need to claim on what will probably be the dearest course of treatment otherwise chances are the condition will be excluded on the next renewal as a pre-existing condition :(

[scrappydoo]

What do you think of that haylage ?

[Pink's lady]

£55 isn't bad for ,although that's for half a set. Pad will be more expensive. The vet may trim his feet tommorow and will certainly pad and tape them.

Trouble is with claiming on insurance, you need to claim on what will probably be the dearest course of treatment otherwise chances are the condition will be excluded on the next renewal as a pre-existing condition

It does depend on how good your insurance is. You could probably get away with claiming vet treatment, x-rays (inc sedation) and the resulting shoeing as part of the one on-going condition. But your right, you won't be covered for the next bout of laminitis unless you've got life-long cover.

What do you think of that haylage

I don't know what haylage you're using so don't know. You need to make sure it's high-fibre and low sugar.

[scrappydoo]

Im not insured, but there is no question of me paying if i have to. I paid 300 for him 3 years ago and used to have him insured fully up until last year when they decided to up it to £28 per month, so hes just 3rd party now. sods law i guess. The same thing happen when my cat had to have his back leg removed it cost £430 and two months later he decided to get him self run over, i suppose he couldnt get out of the way fast enough.

[scrappydoo]

If any of my horses shown lamness with their feet i always call the black smith first not the vet. After all the a black smith spends 5 years studing just the foot.

[scrappydoo]

doesnt that lamintic hay have a straw quaity mixed with it and does it have a very low suger value to that of ordinary hay?

the hay ive got is very good quailty and smells like the day i got it off the medow, even if i soak it, it will be high in suger wont it ? Will have to get some older hay i suppose.

[scrappydoo]

Phew just checked, its says on the pack suitable for lamintic horses high in fibre and is recommend by the laminitus trust. Is mixed with straw.

I will sue if its not.

[alwaysfallingof]

Sorry to hear about your pony, I hope that the vet can make him more comfortable in the morning.

Just thought I'd mention that since he'll probably going to be on box rest for a while, it might be worth switching to a shavings bed if possible, and deep litter it. That way you know exactly how much he's eating and don't have to mess around with Jeyes fluid, and they're usually easier to deep litter than straw beds, so you don't have to spend a fortune keeping up a HUGE straw bed.

Yep, either get some older hay, or soak the stuff you've got for 12 hours ish, should make it fine.

I don't trust the Laminitis trust mark since they put it on Happy Hoof:rolleyes:

Hope that he's comfier soon.

[scrappydoo]

we have to be able to spread it on the field and shavings would be ideal but we couldnt use the manure on the fields because it takes years to rot :(

I'm going to get some stable matting fitted i think and we have ample paper shreading going on at work to keep me going. I had the matting before in our last yard but i still like to have a little pillow for their beds and to pee on.

[scrappydoo]

I will give that hay to cows tomorrow, one less thing to worry about.

[scrappydoo]

I used to have 5 horses and hardly any grass and used to moan.

Now i have two horses 320 acres and my horses cant eat any of it ...

It was better having no grass !!!!

[eventerbabe]

Heart bars should cost you between £50 and 70 a set. Odds on you will NOT need them on all 4 feet. My mare had severe laminitis in all 4 feet, and even she only needed heart bars on the front. If you go for imprint shoes, you are looking at a bill running into the hundreds but not with heart bars. X-rays are also not that expensive. Bonnie had 4 done last time, at a cost of £150 (i.c VAT, call out etc.). These were done on-site on our yard with a portable x-ray machine.

Please do not feed haylage to a laminitic horse. Haylage is more acidic. And laminitis starts as a gut upset. If you add haylage in there, you risk unbalancing the gut even more and potentially exaserbating any attack. Soak your horses hay for a good 12 hours to remove all the goodness, and if still concerned try and get some oat straw to mix in with it and bulk it out.

Best of luck getting your lad right. We battled for years with my mare and her laminitis. It's identifying the triggers in your particular horse and removing them from these if possible. With my mare it was stress, so we moved from a large-ish yard onto a place of our own and hey presto no more laminitis.

[becs]

the farmer does give him a few nuts but i would hardly call it a hard feed as the other horse eats most off them joined by the pet sheep Slightly o/t but if sheep and horses are sharing feed, I hope the farmer is sure it _is_ a suitable feed - many horse feeds explicitly say "do not feed to sheep" (because of the copper levels).

Hope things work out better soon with your youngster. If it is laminitis, that seems so terribly young, poor thing.

[artemis]

Not all haylage is high sugar it would need to be tested to be sure.

[scrappydoo]

:) its good to hear from people that have hands on experience with thier own horses with laminitis, you can study and read all the books you want and its not the same.

The vet came out yesturday morning and gave him an injection and some bute. I know hes not going to look better over nite but i would of thought there would of been a slight improvement this morning, but he still can hardly move. He looks happy enough in himself and its weird because there is not a lot of heat in his feet. His legs are puffy but as you would understand with him standing in. My blacksmith is comming monday as the vet said leave it a few days.

I feel like a bad parent because this really is my own fault as he is over weight. The nuts he may of shared with the sheep are suitable for horses as they are all round livestock nuts, not ideal i know but a normal pony nut would kill a sheep its the only thing the farmer can use.

My blacksmith said there is a high chance he wont need the heartbar shoes, but he hasnt seen him yet.

Do think he should show a slight improvement this morning ? j

[scrappydoo]

i also asked the farmer how may nuts he puts down, and its about 2lb scoop shared with 5 pet sheep and another horse.

[scrappydoo]

cost up to now £70 with call out, injection and bute to last five days.

[martini55]

I'd have x-rays done if you can. It cost me around £50 (in 2004) to have front feet x-rayed. Heart-bars cost about £60. It sounds like you are doing the best you can for him. My insurance now excludes anything that could be laminitis-related and cushings. I can't remember if her front feet are excluded completely. So as your horse is so young I wouldn't want to claim if I didn't have to incase you end up with silly exclusions.

[scrappydoo]

If he comes sound, would i still need to have the xrays done ? will the blacksmith be able to tell if theres any damage? Spoke to man across the other farm and his horse had chronic laminitis a few weeks ago, he said you can notice on the sole and the hoof wall, his horse has had a few attacks though, cant eat a blade of grass.


Just given him a groom and he seems to look a little better, putting more weight on his front now, mind he did have 2 butes this morning at 8, i thought it would of taken longer to get into his blood stream. Hes quite happy, kept taking my hat off and playing with the brushes, good sign, was a bit worried this morning when he looked the same as yesturday.

My stables are about 2 miles from the house across the field by landy, thinkin of trying to build one in our back garden so i can see him, it would be eaiser then to confine him a little bare paddock and watch he didnt jump out.


and am i right dont you need planning for a stable if its in your garden? got neighbours though so i suppose they could complain.

[Lucy J]

my old horse suffered badly from laminitis, possibly caused by cushings. In the end, as soon as he went lame he was kept in on a deep woodchip bed being fed nothing but high fibre nuts, alfalfa and old hay topped off with bute until he came sound (approx 5-7 days.) (well not old, but certainly not new hay)

Eventually the only way to eliminate it completely was to keep him off decent grass from end of march till august. (more difficult to gauge with todays weather pattern) the farrier put eggbars on him then progressed to rolled toes over time. I never had him x-rayed, although he did have pedal bone rotation (noticeable due to his dropped soles) once i'd sussed out the management the only ongoing problem was foot abcesses from the damage done. there is no quick fix.

[Joyscarer]

Two of the ponies at my yard are very prone to laminitis and we have to keep a very close eye on them. At the first sign one gets his muzzle put on and other one who won't tolerate a muzzle (the pedal bone rotated before so she can't be allowed to get bad again) is put into the sand school so then there is the worry about sand colic :rolleyes:

I know that Joy is very quick to gain/lose weight and with 7 acres to play with I will be watching her very closely too.

[scrappydoo]

:) Well its day 3 and he is showing a very slight improvment, well he is on 4 butes a day then two from tomorrow. He still cant walk around but he did lie down last nite so thats good for him to get the weight off.

Ive learnt a lesson the hard and feel ive nearly ruined his life, so i will do anything now to stop it again, when hes better i think i should let him out with a muzzle on, the land streches for 40 acres on his field i tried electric fencing last year and he jumped it, even gave him self an electric shock by pulling the tape with his teeth, i was stunned to see he quite liked the shock cause he kept going back to have another go. I tried to higher it but he ended up all tangled up, so its out of the question, he can also jump normal fencing so its no good making a little paddock cause he will get out if his mate isnt with him.

So heres my plan when he gets better, he will go out from 9 - 3 with a muzzle on when the dew has gone, he can graze a little but only the longer bits, so this should avoid the new spurts, if its frosty he wont be going out. He will then come in at nite and just have a little bucket of dengie hi fi for his vitimins.

Blacksmith is coming tommorow, but i dont know weather he should leave him another week until he can stand and put more weight on his feet.

[scrappydoo]

I have also noticed he has a swollen sheath, why is that ? Hes drinking fine.

[alwaysfallingof]

Glad he's feeling a bit better. I wouldn't worry about the sheath - it's quite common for fluid to build up there if they're stabled and not moving for any length of time. As long as he can drop his bits out enough to wee then don't worry.

[scrappydoo]

Thanks for your well wishes, The blacksmith called today and trimmed his toe right down.

Still really worried this morning though as he still has great difficulty moving, the vet called me back to say he would class his case as acute even though he looked so bad, he said that if it continues for a long lenght of time then it has moved on to be a chronic case. :confused: I keep asking if they think he will get 100% better but no one know?

I asked my blacksmith when he last saw a case like mine and he said the horse case sound after a few weeks and was working in the school and its pedal bone came through the sole :eek:

Has anyone got any stories of hope im worried sick.

[ElvisFan]

Remi got laminitis about 2 years ago and is fine now Scrappydoo. It was a long process to get him sound again, he was stabled for about 3 months in all. He didnt cope well with being in and looking back it was a nightmare at the time but 2 years on hes sound and fortunately has had no relapses.
As long as you follow the vets and farriers advice and try not to rush anything he could well make a full recovery. Because Remi was so anxious being stabled I just wanted him to go out with his friends but I,m so glad I followed advice as it could have killed him.Even when he was sound it was at least 6 months(couldve been longer?) before we started riding him again, we just walked him in hand and waited for the go ahead from the vet/farrier. Laminitis is an ongoing problem and it is always something you will have to watch out and prepare for. I find Im overprotective verging on paranoid now but I,d rather be that way than have a dead horse.
Good luck:D

[Cochise]

If any of my horses shown lamness with their feet i always call the black smith first not the vet. After all the a black smith spends 5 years studing just the foot.

Sorry, just got so preoccupied with this comment. Laminitis doesn't often start in the feet, it starts in the hindgut! Sorry, the vet is always the first point of contact for anything for me and the farrier works in with the vet's orders.
Anyway, sounds like your horse is feeling a bit better. Mine suffered an acute attack in November 2005, he's fine now, but requires careful management for the rest of his life.

[becs]

I find Im overprotective verging on paranoid now but I,d rather be that way I think that's how a lot of us end up after nursing them thro' laminitis.

[MelanieD]

Is he shod at the moment? If he is what kind of shoe? If not then does he have frog supports on? Is he on box rest? Should be kept on box rest while on bute as there's a danger of not feeling the pain and moving around too much.

If your farrier/vet want heart bars then they should be done with X-rays and only as a short term treatment. Used long term or done without X-rays they can do more harm than good. X-rays are a good idea anyway then at least you know exactly what damage has been done.

Supplementing with magnesium oxide or calmag helps a lot of laminitics so well worth a try. It's really important to get the diet right, soaked hay is good. Just give the minimum bucket feed for giving magnesium and any other supplements, no mixes, carrots or anything else sugary at all.

I asked my blacksmith when he last saw a case like mine and he said the horse case sound after a few weeks and was working in the school and its pedal bone came through the sole


Very helpful and reassuring farrier you have there! :rolleyes: After an attack of laminitis even after the original cause is removed and the horse is getting more comfortable the damage done still needs to grow out which takes months. There can be a problem sometimes of having a horse that's had laminitis shod afterwards so it appears a lot more comfortable than it would without shoes making it possible for the horse to appear sounder than it really is and the damage done to not seem as bad. If that horse is then worked too hard based on appearing comfortable damage can be done. OTOH if the damage was so bad the pedal bone was coming through the sole you'd expect there to be some lameness and signs or problems well before it pops through.

Has anyone got any stories of hope im worried sick.

One of mine had laminitis last spring, doesn't sound like it was as bad as yours but she has made a full recovery. She's been barefoot a couple of years and stayed that way and she has made a full recovery now. She's totally sound over everything, feet look pretty normal now unless you look really closely at the hoof wall and white line, then it's a bit 'WTF?!' :D but that should be gone soon. She was back in full work within six months and had been doing a bit of hacking a lot sooner than that, but since she wasn't shod and is a very delicate little madam it was very easy to tell what she was comfortable doing.

My YO's horse had laminitis pretty badly a few years ago and she's recovered well. She was treated with shoes and pads and you can still see in her feet that she's had it but she's totally sound and happy.

[eventerbabe]

You MUST get x-rays done, without x-rays you won't have the foggiest what's gone on in the feet, and any decent remedial farrier will not work without x-rays to guide them.

I would be turning him out at night to graze, then in during the day. Sugars in the grass are lower at night, hence less of a risk.

No vet will be able to tell you if your horse will 100% recover. the ONLY way a long term prognosis can be made is if you get x-rays done and find out if there has been any rotation or foundering.

My mare suffered many bouts of stress related laminitis over a 5 year period. Her vet bills ran into tens of thousands of pounds as she had various different treatments. She had foundered and had about 3-4 degrees of rotation (not a huge amount). She did come sound once we removed her from the trigger of the laminitis and spent several months happy hacking with my mum before grass sickness claimed her life. They can and do recovery from laminitis but it's a long hard slog to get them sound and you have to be very, very diligent with them.

[MelanieD]

I would be turning him out at night to graze, then in during the day. Sugars in the grass are lower at night, hence less of a risk.


I take it you mean after recovering from this bout of laminitis? Going anywhere near grass right now and turning out at all while on bute would be very bad ideas.

[eventerbabe]

Yes, AFTER recovery. It was in answer to the OP's plan of action when horsie is better. Until the horse has been sound and drug free for 28 days, if he were mine, he wouldn't be going out of the stable.

[ElvisFan]

I totally agree with eventerbabe on getting x-rays done. I,m surprised the vet hasnt done these already as its the only sure way of knowing how much damage is actually there. We had x rays done the day after Remi was diagnosed. The vet was pretty sure Remi got it from a field that had been fertilised 10 days previously.As we had no rain when the horses were moved into it it hadnt been washed away sufficiently.
Laminitis is not all doom and gloom but its not easy managing a laminitic horse.We have alot of extremely good grazing where we are and coupled with an unsympathetic farmer who doesnt understand the dangers of laminitis its been very difficult.I always say if I won the lottery I,d start a livery yard purely for laminitics:rolleyes:

[scrappydoo]

Hes looking a lot better today after the blacksmiths visit yesturday and is moving around and im able to pick his feet up without any problems.

I did ask the vet about xrays and he said there is no need at this stage . I think sometimes you can read too much and end up doing things that wouldnt be nessary ( although i can understand the piece of mind). Im following the advice ive been given by my vet and blacksmith and thats good enough for me as long as hes showing improvement.

He will stay in now until im told otherwise. He has a big deep bed, a rocky lick and soaked hay and a small mash for this bute.

thanks for all your friendly advice though.

[gingeremmie]

:)
So heres my plan when he gets better, he will go out from 9 - 3 with a muzzle on when the dew has gone, he can graze a little but only the longer bits, so this should avoid the new spurts, if its frosty he wont be going out. He will then come in at nite and just have a little bucket of dengie hi fi for his vitimins.

Just a bucket of hi fi? Or with hay as well? He will need hay too if he's muzzled all day and can't get very much grass.

My horse had a severe lami attack about a month ago. We've had xrays done - cost £160 for 4 portable xrays - and he's got plastic impact (or imprint or whatever they are) shoes on his fronts and he's still on bute. He's on box rest on a deep shavings bed and I'm not planning on changing anything for a couple of months at least - vet has said box rest for up to 6 months. His xrays did show slight rotation though - around 5 degrees in one front foot and the bone has dropped slightly in the other.

I believe he will come right though, they just need time. It takes around 9-12 months to grow a whole new hoof, and you need to give them plenty of time or else with every step and/or mouthful of grass they risk tearing more of the laminae and causing more pain.

I hope he continues getting better :)

[scrappydoo]

gingeremine, thanks for the advice, ive thought about putting him on hifi, he is currently on soaked hay and a small mash twice a day, he has the runs now, so i want to come away from the mash and hes only a 4 year old. Hes drinking plenty so i dont have to worry about dehidration

Hes not improving quickly and still stuggles to move around his stable, he seems to lift his feet a lot, its only been a week today so i think im expecting a bit much. Theres hardly any heat in his feet which is odd, and i cant check his pulse because hes so feathery.

Ive got him on deep litter and am making sure its kept dry (dont want him getting thrush) im still unsure how much hay he should have, even when its soaked i worry the sugar level is still high. He is very over weight hes 14h and about 572 on the weight tape (not sure how exact these are though)

I have decided to get him xrayed im not sleeping at the moment, i need to know how bad it is.

If he is xrayed now, and there is not damage could the rotation occure whilst hes recovering or not ???

[becs]

I think Xrays are a very good idea, especially if he's still shifting after a week of treatment.

I thought hot hoof walls weren't a reliable indicator of severity anyway.

If you're worried about even soaked hay being too rich, HiFi Lite is / was recommended by the Laminitis Trust for laminitics. The packet tells you how much they can have. As I'm sure you know, you mustn't starve laminitics or they metabolise fats for energy instead - these break down into ketones and in significant amounts can lead to ketoacidosis and death.

[eventerbabe]

What meds does your vet have him on? i'd be concerned if my horse was still uncomfortable after a week. As for hay, 1% of his bodyweight should suffice. That's what my vet always insisted on when in the throws of an attack. Double net it in small holed nets to make it last longer. Or bulk it out with oat straw, if you can get hold of any.

There has been a bit of controversy over bran mashes recently (i'm presuming when you say mash, that's what you mean?). Hi-fi lite is fine, i'd also have him on a digestive aid (laminitis starts in the gut, so gut health is cruicial to keeping laminitis at bay) and something like formula4feet to ensure he's all the vitamins and minerals he needs for healthy new hoof growth.

Your horse should be on ACP right now. Thats a sedative (and increases blood flow to the feet) and one of the reasons it's given is to minimise movement and prevent further damage to the feet. In theory, yes, further rotation/foundering can occur whilst in the stable.

AS for the point about hoof recovery time, yes, it will take up to a year to get rid of the poor growth produced after a laminitis attack. My farrier was coming every 10-14 days at one stage to trim the very poor hoof growth on my mare because when it chipped off (as it's poor and brittle) it was making her sorer, so we got to it before it had a chance to do that. She was sound and with impeccable feet within a year, and 12 months after that was ready to move off heart bars and back into 'normal' shoes had grass sickness not claimed her.

You are wise to get him x-rayed. It is impossible to devise a recovery plan if you don't know what has gone on in the feet.

[scrappydoo]

The vet gave him an injection last friday, then he had 4 butes sat, 4 sun, and hes on two a day at the moment.

I am getting very concerned as his movement is very limited, although i will have to see what hes like tonite, as he did look a little better this morning.

Ive got some hifi and will use that tonite. My hay is still really green even when its soaked, ive been told to soak it in hot water as that works better.

If i get him xrayed now and hes ok, will i need to have him done again incase its rotates whilst hes recovering, or shouldnt that happen.

[scrappydoo]

I wouldnt want to give him ACP, he can harldy move around as it is so theres no worries with him over doing it. I would also have concerns with the damage he could cause him self whilst feeling out of it. I can see the logic though if you had a stressed horse.

[eventerbabe]

STANDARD treatment for laminitis is bute, ACP and asprin. Asprin to thin the blood and increase blood flow to the feet, ACP to assist in blood flow to the feet also, bute for pain relief. ACP is actually a pretty poor sedative. My 13.3hh mare was on anything up to 12 tablets a day and still bouncing off the walls. it's main job in treatment of laminitis is to aid blood flow to the feet. ACP's sedative effects are nothing like injecting them with sedatives. if he's not improving on 2 bute a day (a decent dose) i'd be banging on my vet's door demanding a rethink of his treatment.

X-rays, well, depends on the vet. We'd several sets of x-rays per attack. My friends laminitic pony had regular x-rays every 2 months whilst he was getting back into work.

Has he had shoes removed and frog supports applied? If he hasn't got frog supports on, that could explain why he's finding moving so painful. These frog supports are fantastic:
http://www.equilife.co.uk/frogsupports.htm
i always keep some in my first aid kit.

[becs]

Echo eventerbabe - that's the accepted regime for acute laminitis & exactly how our last welshie was treated. I would be suspicious of anything less and ask for another opinion if things didn't change soon. ACP is a vital part of the initial treatment.

I understand it's very worrying for you but you seem a bit hesitant over action. If this IS laminitis (and only Xrays will show that for sure) you can't wait 'n' see if his symptoms are still that bad, IMHO.

Frog supports can also be made from rolled soft fine bandages and lots of tape - many books show how (or vet hopefully) or I guess there's a web site out there with details (eg the Laminitis Trusts'?).

[scrappydoo]

This has me worried now i want to be doing every thing i can to make him recover.

He is a lot better tonite, can now walk around but still showing reluctance to have a proper walk round his box. I called the vet who says it will take time and laughed at me suggesting ACP and asprin, he said asprin can do more harm than good and could cause the liver to fail and also ulcers of the intestine with all the other things going on in his body. He said he will xray in 2 weeks time, unless he starts getting worse. He also said that ACP affect each individual horse differently and i could need up to 20 tablets a day.

I am calling another vet tomorrow as im still not happy with his recovery, is it normal for him to be taking a week to show improvement?

Ive also got a new blacksmith comming to give his opion, hes the best around here so he should be able to give me his imput.

[ElvisFan]

I was told by my vet ACP is vital in the recovery of laminitis as it increases the bloodflow to the feet as said previously. If I were you I,d definitely seek a second opinion.In the first 3 weeks of Remi`s attack I saw 4 different vets and although the medication didnt change the approach and prognosis was different from them all, and they were all from the same practice.

[clarejones]

hi just read your thread, my pony suffered really bad laminitis which resulted in contracted tendons. he has spent alot of time with Robert Eustace at the lamintis clinic he has done wonders with him he really has been through hell. Anyway x rays should be asap and i would get a second opinion as i am surprised your vet has not xrayed him yet. Asprin does work very well and acps are vital, but don't over do with the bute because at this stage if your pony is on alot of bute he will feel more able to walk around which he shouldn't be doing at this stage because this can make the pedal bones more unstable which can cause more damage. I can give you alot of really good advice if you want it pm me if you want to hope thats of help also deep shavings bed covering all the floor,

[becs]

could cause the liver to fail would be interested to hear where he gets that from. It's common knowledge that excessive use of non-steroid anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID) like aspirin can lead to gut ulceration in some. But never heard of the former.

ACP affect each individual horse differently and i could need up to 20 tablets a day.
sounds excessive but that wouldn't be a reason not to for me.

[eventerbabe]

i would be seriously questioning your vet about his knowledge of laminitis treatment. I know there are varying approaches to treatment but meds (from my expeirence) are the one consistant factor. My vet (very knowledgeable and works closely with the laminitis clinic advice) follows this recovery program: box rest, bute, ACP and asprin, frog supports, and box rest for 28 days once sound and off meds. My friends vet had a slightly different approach. Same meds but her horse was turned out daily to encourage movement. Was horrid to watch but she did come sound, as did my pony.

I wouldn't expect recovery in a week, but i would be expecting him to be more comfortable. Has he frog supports on? I would call in your second opinion asap. There is also a telephone number for the laminitis clinic. It is about £1.50 per min but might be worth giving them a call, for reassurance if nothing else. best of luck :)

Asprin does work very well and acps are vital, but don't over do with the bute because at this stage if your pony is on alot of bute he will feel more able to walk around which he shouldn't be doing at this stage because this can make the pedal bones more unstable which can cause more damage.
absolutely spot on advice :)

[scrappydoo]

Thank you all so much for your advice, im now shaking and really upset, called an equine vet who is shocked and concerned with the amount of bute hes on, also said there are other drugs he needs to be on. They have also said he should not still been shiffing his weight around like ive discribed after a week, they are on there way now, as they have said hes an emergency. They are also going to xray. I will let you know what happens.

good job your all here

[eventerbabe]

please keep us updated on his progress. and don't dispair, they can and do recover from laminitis. your new vet sounds like he'll get you back on track.

[martini55]

I'm so glad you went for the 2nd opinion. Your vet didn't seem to be very knowledgable about laminitis. I know how difficult that can be for you as they are supposed to be qualified and know what they are doing so you feel you can only follow their advice. My vet (at the time) diagnosed my horse as having an abcess in her hind foot. I kick myself now for listening to him as I was certain she was ever so slightly lame in her front feet, one moreso than the other and was paranoid about laminitis. A couple of days later she was down in her box unable to stand. Thankfully the vet put her on box rest for the 'abcess' so she was off the grass and was on bute. But it makes me wonder whether there would have been any rotation had he picked up on it there and then and used frog supports. But I guess there's no point in thinking about that now! My farrier was the biggest support to me and he was at the forefront of her recovery. The vet was only there to give meds and x-rays and only seen her three times as I went and picked up the meds. I lost my trust in them.

Anyway, getting back on track. Don't despair, there is hope! You have caught it early and are doing your best for your horse. My mare couldn't even stand some days (it was heartbreaking) but now she is happy and being ridden again. It's taken a long way to get here and at times I've thought we might lose her but she has recovered. Please do keep us updated.

[clarejones]

Keep us informed, fingers crossed and just keep positive.

[scrappydoo]

Im crying whilst writting this, The vet has been brilliant, he has padded all his feet out and spent hours looking at him, he has taken him off the bute and is now on a different drug which is supposed to be better, and he is now on ACP.

The horror of it all is that the vet thinks he has roatated both front pedal bones due to the depression on both corinet bands. He is xraying him on monday morning as we couldnt get the extention lead to work.

If he would of had ACP in the begining it would of decreased the damage and maybe the possiblity of roatation.

I feel sick and worried.

[becs]

If he would of had ACP in the begining it would of decreased the damage and maybe the possiblity of roatation.
only _maybe_, you'll never know, he may have already rotated anyway. Look forward to the Xrays monday to put you all in the picture.

Try not to get too disheartened - you've got someone better to see him, he's now on better meds and support. No point getting so upset you can't care for him - try to be strong for him!

Like others have said, they _can_ recover from this horrible illness - but it takes time, you can't rush it. After minimising damage now (drugs, supports, box rest etc), then preventing further triggers (careful diet from now on, restricted grazing in future - strip / muzzle etc, gradual re-introduction of work when vet says ready) whilst supporting with heart bar shoes / remedial farriery, you then have to give it _time_ to grow out & repair.

[martini55]

If he would of had ACP in the begining it would of decreased the damage and maybe the possiblity of roatation.


Please don't beat yourself up over this. Like I said in my last post, I too was riddled with guilt but thinking 'what if' gets you nowhere. At least now you have a vet who you can trust. Before getting too upset wait and see the results from the x-rays. Take each day at a time and don't rush his recovery. Let us know how the x-rays go and if you ever want to talk about it I've been through it with my own horse so you are welcome to PM me :) Eventerbabe is great when it comes to laminitis and has lots of advice to offer.

[scrappydoo]

thank you all so much for your advice and support, the vet rang me again about half our ago, hes been so good and anwsered a lot of my what ifs and hes made a diet plan for him , hes coming at 9.00am on Tuesday now, because he collegue was going to come on monday but ive personally requested him to come himself.

I will let you all know how he is tomorrow. Got to change his bedding to shavings as hes been eating his staw.

Thanks Again

[scrappydoo]

Hes looking so much better today, hes not quite so sore and is standing a lot eaiser. Have swapped his bed to shavings, so ive just got to hope for the best on tuesday.

Went everywhere to try and find some older hay but no one seems to have any, have soaked mine in boiling water and left it all day, so im hoping that should be ok.

As well as his other new powders he had some ACP out of a tube, i gave him his daily 5ml, and within half an hour his bottom lip hung, by this evening he was rolling all around his new bed, and digging big holes, so thats a good sign, ( i had to keep reminding him hes still got poorly feet though) hes doesnt seem to be in any pain now.

[scrappydoo]

Read this link


http://www.ironfreehoof.com/Druid.htm

[scrappydoo]

Its day ten today, He is starting to look better now, he is walking around his box and has even been trying to barge out of his box.

Any worry i have now is him getting bord, he loves his rocky lick, and ive been today and got a lami lick, hope there is nothing hes not supposed to have in any of these, please let me know if there is.

Ive been soaking my hay in hot water, and i have even resorted to taste a strand to make sure its not sweet, please dont call the looney bin, its so worring. Its does work by tasting it though, before its soaked its very sweet, after its more like a piece of straw with no sweetness to it at all.

I have been trying to find his pulse today, but i cant, is there an easier method or tip to this?

I did find the dip that the vet was going on about at the top of the corinet band, i found it on his back hoofs as :eek: god i hope he hasnt roatated all four.

[becs]

Good to hear he's feeling a bit better. Must be a relief for you, not to see him so uncomfy.

Sounds like you're doing a good job with the hay soaking.

Re digital pulses - if you search on NR, Pinks Lady gave a great diagram of where / how to feel.

There's always a palpable "difference" as you feel from the hard hoof wall onto the softer bits - it's how _much_ it dips that matters, try not to fret too much - wait for the Xrays, they'll be most accurate.

[gingeremmie]

What sort of straw is he on? I wouldn't worry too much about him eating straw, it's probably better for him than hay, but shavings will give him more support.

My lami pony isn't on ACP, he's only ever been on bute, and as soon as he had the plastic shoes on he's been so much more comfortable. He's on founderfrei from Trinity consultants which will help with the blood circulation and cleansing of the blood. I guess different vets have different routes.

I would advise against putting any sort of shoes that need nailing on on him if he's still sore. My vet said that a laminitic foot is like a massive headache and the foot is pounding like your head would be so hitting it with a hammer isn't nice at all. So I went for plastic shoes that have like a heart bar bit at the back, and he seems very happy in them. The back feet are still bare.

I'm afraid a dimple at the coronary band is a very strong indication of rotation. My cob has around 5 degrees of rotation and he doesn't have a dip so it's possible your horse could have more. Don't despair though cos you're doing all the right things.

You can feed soaked hay in fairly large quantities because the fibre won't hurt him, and the soaking will take the sugar out, it's a bit like us humans eating lettuce! Make sure you soak it for about 12 hours though.

I'm sure he will get better, don't give up hope. When are you having the xrays done?

This is a pic of Bailey's plastic shoes from the bottom, sorry it's not very good.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/gingeremmie/Bailey/foot1.jpg

[scrappydoo]

Hes had his x-rays and its sad news, the vet had only just got back so cant tell me until hes measured up to what degree he has roatated.

He has roatated on all fours and on one front he has a black shaddow which the vets says is a lot of damage to the lamini. Im on my way to the surgery to find out the exact details. The vet says he now needs to be referred to the leahurst animal hospital, he will of course be staying where he is, but they will get there specialist blacksmith to read the x-rays and come out to me.

I feel so sick and upset, no only for my poor horse but the financial side of things. I really dont know what i can do, and no one can tell me if hes going to get better.

[scrappydoo]

gingeremmie, thanks for you replay and photo it does give me hope.

[martini55]

Please don't lose hope! I really should have taken pictures throughout my ordeal with laminitis. My mare had lami in all four feet and rotation in the fores. For the first couple of months there were days where she wouldn't even stand, I was in tears everyday at the yard. I really did think there was a possibility we could lose her but 2 and a half years on (though we still have the odd issue with her feet with bruising etc) she is for the most part very happy and healthy. We can potter about hacking and get on with our lives. It's taken a long way to get here and has been a lot of hard work and money but it was most definitely worth it.

Keep us updated with what the vet says.

[Big Ears]

Rosie had a bad bout of laminitis and rotated in both front feet but is fully rcovered and can hack out for up to 3-4 hours without a twinge.

It's a shame the first vet didn't really help you very much - we found that rosie rotated between the first set of x rays which didn't look bad, but 3 months' later she was still pottery and a further set showed further rotation, she was off for 6 months plus.

It is likely he is going to be in for a while and then it will be a long haul to recovery or not. I hope you have some good luck with him but you have to prepare yourself that it could be the rest of 2007 getting him right.

[scrappydoo]

Thank you all so much for your support, really does help me. I went to the surgery to pick up so more meds, im still at a loss to what the extent of the damage is as the vet was called out again before i could catch him.

The receptionist said he is awaiting the imput of the farrier at leahurst as he will need some foot work, he is supposed to picking up the xrays and will let me know where we will go from here. It so sickening and i know everone is busy, but i wonder and stress to how long it will take someone to take control.

I do have a number of another blacksmith with years of experience, however will i have to use the leahurst one, he doesnt live far from me, but hes really hard to get hold of and i worry that im going to have to wait a long time to get him to come out.

What am i going to do ? i thought my vet would be able to tell me more.

Im also worried as my horse has started digging his bed up and he leaves bare patches in his bed even though hes on 20 bales of shavings. I got to his stable tonite and he had a made a moutain in his stable. Hes not helping his feet.

Also the vet has left his frog supports off ?

[clarejones]

I know it's difficult and a real shock but the best way i am dealing with it is to stay very positive and find out as much information on it as possible. I always aks my vet and farrier questions even if you think they are silly just ask and make sure they explain things in simple and easy to understand terms if in any doubt whatsoever ask! My connemara gelding got laminitis he has been in now for 12mths, we have had him to Robert Eustace in Wiltshire for surgery because he got contracted tendons as a result so had to have his deep digital flexor tendon cut on both legs, his pedal bones have sunk as well. It's been 6 mths since surgery and slowly but surely he is getting better he potters around on the yard and goes for walks now and is making progress. Don't despair keep us informed on his progress i must say the leahurst is excellent i have had a few of mine their for various things over the years and i think they are fab.

[clarejones]

just read your recent post pm me if you want to talk i am in cheshire and my blacksmith is excellent also ring the laminitis clinic up tomorrow it's not cheap think it's £1.50 a min but worth while. Why has he taken frog supports off ?

[scrappydoo]

yes i here they are good, i live about 30 miles from there. If i thought he'd get seen quicker i'd take him there, but i dont suppose i can even think about boxing him there. The farrier is supposed to be the best as well.

[clarejones]

Pour yourself a large glass of something alcoholic to chill you out thats what i had to do!!!! How much bute is he on at the moment he might be doing too much walking about if his bed was like that. why did your vet take the frog supports off?

[scrappydoo]

Im calling the vet first thing in the morning, because i was that stressed i didnt notice he hadnt put them back on.

Would it matter what blacksmith i use as long as they can work from the xrays? I live near the mold area.

Wouldnt belive this but as well as my horse losing a load of weight, i have dropped a stone in weight with all the worry and guilt.

[scrappydoo]

Hes not on bute now, hes on something else which is a little more expensive but is working better than the bute he was on. I cant remeber the name, but its in an orange box and he has two a day plus 5 ml of ACP.

[scrappydoo]

Hes getting bord i think, i have tried tying things up for him ever where, hes managed to smash his lick up and paddles in his water. The other problem is there is not much going on, hes in the middle of the moutain, with nothing but sheep to look at. Theres nothing interesting and he never sees any other people, but me three times a day (poor sole). If i could move him i would, i think it would be good for him to be on a yard to see lots of things through out the day. I think this is the problem from now on.

[Big Ears]

a mirror might help, or some stable toys, just to give him something to do. or even putting a sheep with him for company.

any good farrier should be able to trim once they see the x rays, as while the foot may look normal, when you compared rosie's x rays, you could see that because of the rotation, she was very long in the toe, even though it looked ok, so the farrier was then able to trim her quite radically to make her more upright. but until you have the x rays then you shouldn't do this, as you don't know where to trim till you can see the angle on the x ray

if he is on his own then yes it isn't ideal but unless you can move him a reasonably short distance, then the transporting him isn't going to make him comfortable.

[clarejones]

Not sure what that is is it danilon? or finidyne? (think it's called). I do feel so sorry for you i know exactly what your going through. As far as the farrier goes he must be able to work from the xrays properly and know what he is doing otherwise he will do more harm than good. Has he done this sort of work before? Why is your vet referring your pony to the leahurst ? Sorry if i sound like i am asking loads of questions, go on the laminitis website and it tells you on there why you fit frog supports etc and gives you information etc. It's worth a look.

[scrappydoo]

Just been out to look at the box its equinixin in an orange and pink box. I dont know why hes referring me to leahurst, i think its just to get the farrier to try to take him on, i have a very good blacksmith, but he says i need one with more experience as hes only been shoeing for about 4 years .

I also think the vet whats a second opion, he seemed concerned by the shading in one hoof. It does leave me a bit unsure as maybe hes roatated a lot and he wants to talk to someone else before letting me know what his prognosis is. I dont know ? im going to have to find out tomorrow, i cant spend another night worring. I will ask him about the frog supports tomorrow and i seen the lami website that shows you were to place them.

A mirror sounds a really good idea.

Thanks everyone

[becs]

im still at a loss to what the extent of the damage is as the vet was called out again before i could catch him.

The receptionist said he is awaiting the imput of the farrier at leahurst as he will need some foot work, he is supposed to picking up the xrays and will let me know where we will go from here. It so sickening and i know everone is busy, but i wonder and stress to how long it will take someone to take control.
if you think it's taking too long or they may have forgotten you, don't be afraid to be a polite "stuck record". Keep ringing up repeatedly, to check when the Xrays have been passed on / seen / collected whatever, when to expect the remedial farrier to call etc. Be courteous but firm - you are a paying customer, but they're so busy it's easy to be put aside in error.

Thinking of you both a lot at this difficult time. You both sound so young to be going thro' all this.

[scrappydoo]

How have you all managed with your horse being in for so long? Are you on livery ? how many times do you have to visit.

Your right im too polite, im getting on the phone first thing in the morning, if they are too busy to read the xrays i will take them to someone who can.

My horse is so young, im just old and stuppid. Its just nice to talk to people who have gone through the same thing.

If i hadnt of come on here, then my horse would still be in pain on the wrong drugs and i wouldnt of known any different.

[scrappydoo]

Thanks Becs

[becs]

im just old and stuppid. Its just nice to talk to people who have gone through the same thing.

If i hadnt of come on here, then my horse would still be in pain on the wrong drugs and i wouldnt of known any different. You mustn't berate yourself like this! That's what NR is all about - sharing info. There are millions of things I'd have done wrong / for longer, if it wasn't for NR! Many things I haven't even posted about have come up that are relevant - that I had no idea about. We can't all know everything; just willing to seek advice & learn. I don't think non-horsey folk have any idea how complex modern horse-care is.

[scrappydoo]

Your so right becs,


I have called my vet this morning and even hes admitted he doesnt know the full prognosis, thats why hes referring to leahurst. He said he hasnt measured up as he is leaving it for leahurst as they will pick up the xrays.

This has got me so worried, he doesnt seem to want to comment to his condition, however he did say hes not the worst case hes seen? doesnt really help me though.

He said it could be a few day before i hear anything, if i dont hear anything by friday, im wondering if i should collect the xrays myself and take them.

[martini55]

I personally found my farrier to be a heck of a lot more useful than our vets. With me, the vets were just there to provide the medication and the x-rays. As soon as the x-rays were taken I passed them onto my farrier who became fully involved in my horse's recovery. He immediately assessed the x-rays, came out and took moulds of her feet and she was given heart-bar shoes on the front. Perhaps you could ring your farrier and ask whether he would be happy to look at the x-rays and work with your horse.

[MelanieD]

He might be okay without frog supports since he's on such a deep bed but if he's moving around a lot and digging the bed up maybe better to have them on, would be well worth pestering your vet about why he's taken them off.

As long as the feet are supported by a deep bed and frog supports then there's no hurry to get shoes on, you're better off waiting a bit for a really good farrier than risking having it done quickly by an inexerienced one who could do more harm than good. Assuming the shape of the feet isn't too bad, massively long toes putting pressure on the laminae for example would make a pedicure a bit more urgent.

Don't be afraid to make a pain in the a*se of yourself if vets and farriers are being slow to sort things out.

[scrappydoo]

[QUOTE=MelanieD;1174128]He might be okay without frog supports since he's on such a deep bed .

I forgot to say the vet said he didnt think it was nessary as hes got such a deep fluffy bed. Hopefully he wont be able to dig down to the conceret once the bed has settled and it got wet bits underneath.

my friend has a very good experienced blacksmith so shes going to ask him, to see what he thinks he could do.

I suppose ive just got to be patient, his feet are in (well were in ) good shape i have his feet trimmed every 6-8 weeks. My blacksmith took a little off last week to try to make him a bit more comfy, but his approach to laminitis is barefoot.

Does that farrier formular help with laminitis just been looking at different things ?

Im starting to feel more positive now. I just want the best care for him.

[MelanieD]

Barefoot can be a very good way to deal with laminitis so you might be better sticking with your farrier if he really knows what he's doing. You might be close enough for Richard Vialls to be able to help you as well, he's an EP rather than farrier but has loads of experience with laminitics http://www.epauk.org/register/richardvialls.php, he could always give you some advice and probably recommend someone if he doesn't come to your area. Supplementing with magnesium oxide helps a lot of laminitics, more than a hoof supplement. IMO Formula 4 Feet is better than farrier's formula if you want to give a hoof supplement, but magnesium is even better for laminitics. If you contact Richard he could give you lots of good advice about supplementing with Mg.

I've dealt with a mild bout of laminitis in the same horse both with and without shoes and the recovery was so much better and quicker without, and have seen good results in other ponies with much worse laminitis managed barefoot.

[Gill]

Hello Scrappydoo, I have been following your story from the start here and want to add my sympathy for both you and your horse. I have been there as well, I recognise the guilt, panic, worry you are going through. In the end though you have to decide what YOU think will be the best way forward, weighing up all the available help and ideas. That is hard, but important.

When my pony had L a few years ago I went the route suggested by Melanie in the thread above. I have a fantastic farrier who now looks after mostly barefoot horses. He trimmed my pony every two weeks to start with, keeping as much stress off the laminae as possible. The idea is to grow a new hoof around the pedal bone, so rotation is not a permanent thing, the new hoof every 9 months or so gradually deals with it.

These days we are driving along tarmac, trotting out happily on rock hard hooves. They are still improving all the time though. I feed extra magnesium
too.

I would think very carefully about your choices for footcare and look at the long term results others have had before you decide. Its a long hard journey but you can make it so don't despair.

[scrappydoo]

thanks again everyone,

im still struggling at the moment and got a bit upset again this morning as he seems to look more footy than yesturday.

I have only just logged on and have now sent an e-mail to leahurst in the hope someone can look at these xrays and tell me what else i need to do.

I dont know how long it take them to reply be hopefully someone will get back to me, i have offered to pick up the xray and run them to the hospital.

[scrappydoo]

Had some awful news this morning, leahurst have been fantastic, but the xrays were not good news.

I didnt really understand it but he doesnt really have roatation, but his whole bone 1,2 & 3p has sunken on both fores.

The only way of treating him to take him to leahurst, i have been told it is unlikely he will be able to ridden again, and that he may have to been put down later after the treatment if he doesnt improve. Every one has been brilliant however, i am left now to make the decision on weather to have him put down now or to send him. I have been warned that im looking at not just hundreds of pounds but its looking into the thousands.

I cant cry anymore now and really dont know what to do.

[eventerbabe]

Only you can decide if you want to spend that money. It's a gut wrenching decision and i'd probably base it on his survival chances and quality of life after treatment. I'm making a guess here (as i'm rubbish with the technical jargon) but sounds like it's foundering that's causing the main problems on the x-rays. the foundering you cannot reverse as the whole structure of the foot is lower to the ground.

Talk things through with your vet and leahurst, they will be the best people to advise you. I know it's a painfully hard choice. I'll be thinking about you, lots of hugs xx

[martini55]

Get as much information from your vets as possible. If you don't understand ask them to tell you what they mean in simple terms. Ask what the treatment involves, what the likely outcomes are etc. and base your decision on that. It is the most difficult position to be in and I really do have my fingers crossed for you.

[becs]

Echo others' advice - also ask them what they would do in your situation.

It's so hard because he's young.

What treatment are they referring to - hoof resection?

How good is he about travel and being some where else for a while (Leahurst)? Does he get stressed out with changes (like mine) or does he generally travel well and accept new situations? (eg was he fine at shows / moving yards).

Do you have a horsey friend nearby you can go over this with?

Sending you lots of cyber-hugs at this difficult time.

[clarejones]

Hi just read your post, it's only you that can make that decision and the advice that everyone on here has given you has been really good.When we had xrays on my pony's feet we were told the 2 front feet had 'sunk' so we sent the xrays off to robert eustace to have a look and he thought that there wasn't any sinkage but as a result of the laminitis got contracted tendons. Upto now we have spent around £5000 on treatment, he is an older pony and has always liked being in rather than out which is a god send because he has been in for sooooo long, but it has (and still is) along road to recovery if he ever does recover it still can go the other way, but at the end of the day it's your pony you know him better than anyone, i had to make the hardest decision ever when i was deciding if rocky was to go for this ddft tenotomy but i made it and have been through hell and back but at the end of the day you do whats right for your pony and yourself good luck and keep us posted

[MelanieD]

Sending lots of cyberhugs..

Only you can decide if it's worth it. Both in terms of spending the money for the likely outcome and in terms of how he's coping with it all and if he'll be happy with the life he has at the end of all the treatment.

Interesting article it might be worth you reading here: http://www.hoofrehab.com/jessica.htm but be warned there are pics of hoof dissection included, nothing too horrible but not something everyone wants to look at. It does explain pretty well about the bones being too low in the foot.

[scrappydoo]

i cant thank you all enough for your help and support. I have learnt so much here in the last 16 days. The only good thing that will come out of my inexperience of laminitis will hopefully help someone elses horse before its get to this point.

Spoke to leahurst and my vet again last night and they have agreed that he needs to stay were he is for the next week. If there is no improvement in the next week then he will have the resection and plastic shoes. the vet has been brilliant and has been trying to find a stable close to their surgery so they can give him the care hes going to need and try to keep the costs down. Im still not sure in my mind weather it is the right think to do, the stress and pain he will go through and then he will be lucky to recover. The vet seems more towards this and hasnt mentioned putting him down. There has to be a point were enough is enough.

Has anyone else had their horse resectioned ?

[scrappydoo]

Im still looking at all my options at the moment and i have been researching this resection, i understand the reason for doing it, but it doesnt seem to work or make any little difference to some horses so thats worring.

Again im sat here wondering what to do, ive even just thought i should just send him to leahurst if the vet if cant find him somewhere, and worry about the bill after. I have tried to call leahurst to see what the livery costs alone are, does anyone know ?

I keep getting this sickened feeling that if i send him, hes not coming back, i dont know its just a gut feeling.

Deep down i want to keep him at home, i need to see him every day and that would be become impossible if he gos away, it would mean a 80 mile trip or more for one visit.

I have asked for the treatment at home but they are worried about the surgical sterile side of it and said his dressings will need changing by the vet.

When these plastic shoes are fitted, why does the blacksmith need the vet present, is it to serdate him?

[scrappydoo]

Its day 18,

This is the only day i havent cried, i opened his stable door today and he pushed his way out as i was mucking out, the checky monkey walked across the yard over a few stones, with me cringing and flapping trying to find a halter. All i could do was stand in shock as he was sound even over the stones :eek:

I dont know what to think now, was i seeing things? How is he walking around sound with all that damage ? Hes only on 1 powder and 5ml of ACP a day.

I know that even if he was sound he still has a hell of a long way to go and months or a year of box rest to repair, but nature seems to be helping him along.

He is getting a visit on friday from the vet, and he says he will need to have a resection and these shoes if i want to save him. He has never had shoes on before and i wonder if there are any barefoot options, i really dont want to move him and have these surgical things done.

[Laura+Phantom]

Oh dear, I don't know what to suggest or have any advice to give, just thinking of you both at this difficult time :( Only you can decide whats best and it sounds as though you are doing all the right things and arming yourself with as much knowledge as possible.

This thread has helped me to see how dangerous it is for Phantom to be overweight, as he is now. I mean i've experienced laminitis with my shetland which she re-covered from completely 10 years ago, but you become a bit blase about it. I am definately going to do everything I can to get Phantom slim again and I will be putting a muzzle on him and the shetland in spring, so if nothing else, you have helped at least one reader to realise how serious this can be and how important it is to keep on top of things like weight and grass intake etc.

I hope your horse makes a full recovery and wish you all the best :)

[MelanieD]

He has never had shoes on before and i wonder if there are any barefoot options, i really dont want to move him and have these surgical things done.

Contact Richard Vialls, contact details here: http://www.epauk.org/register/richardvialls.php, he knows loads about hooves and laminitis (far more than my vet :rolleyes: ) and is really nice and helpful. Think he covers your area.

Have seen him do good things to some very messed up feet including laminitic ones. IMO he'd be the best person to contact if you want to try to deal with it barefoot, and barefoot does often work better than shoeing for laminitis.

[becs]

Can't remedial shoes be glued on / cold shod / whatever they call it?

When our pony used to be very uncooperative with the farrier, his were stuck on. Incidently he's shoeless now.

Glad to hear he feels better. It's so hard for you but that must have given you a little lift.

[eventerbabe]

imprint shoes (which i'm assuming scrappydoo's vet is going to use) are moulded to the feet. small indents are drilled around the hoof and the plastic edges of the shoe melted and moulded into the indents. If you can get them to stay on, they've a good success rate. My pone got hers off in 2 days so was £250 down the drain!

A resection isn't as horrific as it first sounds. Didn't look pretty when my pony had it done but it vastly aided her recovery.

[scrappydoo]

:eek: that would be my worry him getting them off, he has been poaring at his door so i have now stappled some cushion to the door.

It is the plastic glue on shoes he wants to fit £350 a pair, but hes not able to fit them were i am as i dont have an addtional dry stable, said i also have to have the vet there so im looking at at a over £400 :eek: thats without the resection i think.

That richard is in my area, ive sent him an email already, i might also give him a call. thanks for that

Ive been looking at xrays, how do they tell if hes sunken ? He still has concave soles and he had plenty of sole on his xrays between p3. the vet told me he had roatated, but leahurst said he hadnt at all, hed just sunken.

[Jessey]

I have been following your story, I really feel for you and your pone (((((HUGS))))) all round.

I just wanted to tell you about a horse on our yard, he got terrible lami even though he wasn't hugely overweight had no access to grass and got limited hard feed etc, he 17 now and this was about 3 years ago. Suddenly he was crippled lame and after investigation and xrays etc his pedal bone had rotated so far that the tip was at his sole. He was in a really terrible way and they weren't at all sure he would pull through but they decided to give him the chance and went along with the vets, I'm not sure what exactly was done but could find out.
All I do know is after 7 months of box rest and lots of hard work he was sound and carefully they started turning him out again etc.
He is now back to ridden work, though they are careful about the surfaces he is worked on he is back to full work and was competeing again last year :p

So really just to say, keep your chin up, discuss every option with your vet and if you are not 100% sure take a 2nd professional opinion or even a 3rd and 4th until you are 100% satisfied you are making the right choice :o

Best of luck

[MelanieD]

Concave soles and being sound over stones isn't exactly something you normally see with a sinker. They look at the position of the coronet band relative to the bones in the foot to judge if the bones are too low, but a true sinker from a bad bout of laminitis isn't the only way to get that. Did they give you a measurement for how much they think the bones have moved? Do you have the X rays and could you post them here? :nosey: Or if no X-rays do you have pics of the feet?

Think I already posted this link but it's a good article so I'll put it in again since this thread is getting too long to go looking for the other one http://www.hoofrehab.com/jessica.htm it explains about the bones being too low in the hoof and how to reverse it.

[clarejones]

Hi again if i can be of any help in anyway just ask we live near whitchurch not far from wrexham i can offer you a stable if you want ?? I am on the yard all day everyday our farrier and vet is brill with laminitis also it might be worth thinking about having him midly sedated if and when he needs shoes on especially if its the glue ones on as it's very tricky work and can take along time to do.

[scrappydoo]

Jessey if you could find out what treatment the horse had that would be great. and thank you for your hugs .

Mel, thats what me blacksmith said, leahurst based the prognosis on the distance between the cornnet band as you have discrided, they wont let me have the xrays, i had to fight for them to take them to the guy in leahurst.

My horse used to belong to some nasty gipsys who started driving him at 18 mths old:eek: i used to cry every time i saw him and ended up buying him so he could be turned away to grow and be a youngster. As you have said Mel, its not just laminitis that causes this, my blacksmith says for all we know my horse could of always had slight sinking with the hammering he had a few years ago. This i suppose i will never know.

Claire thank you , thats so good of you i am looking at all possible options at the moment.

Im just on my way up to the stables so i will see if i can get some pics.

[Jessey]

I will ask tonight and let you know :p

[clarejones]

hi again your entitled to those xrays they should let you have them i don't understand why they won't let you have them:confused:
i would give the lami clinic a ring and have a chat they are really really good and nice to talk to they put things simple and will answer all your questions

[scrappydoo]

just tried the lami help line, opps didnt realise what time it is, so i will call in tomorrow.

I tried to take some pictures of his feet, and they are too dark so i will try again tomorrow. He was all stressed when i went up tonite, i think he has been walking around all day as he had knocked all his banks down and been digging again. He looked a little bit sore tonite so he must of been over doing it.

The best way i can discribe his feet is , they look normal theres no heat,the corinet band is quite wide and white a little flaky and dry looking. I have noticed that when i run my finger down the corinet band there is a very little dip, but he also has another a little further down, so its really hard to tell. There doesnt seem to be a depression at the top of the corinet band any more. I think i should of taken more notice when he was sound as i dont really have any thing to compare to. His soles are hard and he doesnt mind you picking his feet out.

i would like some else to look at the xrays, because i know someone who got told their horse had sunken but they were wrong. The vet told me he had roatated but leahurst said he hadnt and that p 1,2 and 3 have sunk but not the coffin bone ? dont know what difference this makes ? Dont know how the coffin bones stayed in the right place if everything else has shiffted south?

[clarejones]

I think you need to get someone else to look at those xrays the lami clinic close their lines at 4.30pm i think it is. His feet will be dry because of him staying in don't worry about the white flakey stuff thats normal for him staying in, if he has been doing alot of walking around i would drop the doseage of the bute you want him comfortable but you don't want him walking around too much (have a chat to the people at the lami clinic first though but i would think that is one thing they will tell you) have you felt if his digital pulse is up at all?

[scrappydoo]

I thought about dropping his meds as im worried hes going to do more damage by not feeling the pain, ill speak to the lami clinic tomorrow, and call my vet if needed. Hes pulled his cushions off the door as well, he likes to hear his feet banging on the door :eek: ive put a piece of mat on now, i bet hes chewed it off by the morning.

He has lost loads of weight now, so ive increased his hay, its poor hay (not dusty)so at least hes got plenty to chew on.

Ive never been able to feel his digital pulse, not just me either, the vet and the farrier havent either. He has got really bushy feather though. I have cut his feathers a bit in that area, but still no pulse, im sure if it was pounding id feel it now.

[clarejones]

yes i am sure you would definitly feel it as it would be pounding let us know how you get on tomorrow:)

[MelanieD]

P3 is the coffin bone, otherwise known as pedal bone. Your vet does seem to deserve a big :rolleyes:

If you soaked the hay to get rid of sugars then you should be able to feed him lots of it.

Your vets might not want to give you the X rays but they should let you go there and take pics of them (digital camera while holding them up to a window or put them on light box) and they should let whoever is trimming the feet look at them.

[scrappydoo]

spoke to the lami clinic, only for a few minutes though, They were very helpful, but its all down to me to decide what to do.

There is no way i can afford the treatment the vet and leahurst want me to have, even the £400 + for the plastic shoes i am going to struggle to get the money. Already my vet bill for the call outs and xrays are nearly £500. the lami clinic have said i need a lot money set aside, and i have to accept the fact he may never come sound. i tried to explain the xrays and what the vet said but, im sure he said the coffin bone hadnt moved ? maybe i got it wrong and i will ask again on friday.

I dont really know where to go from here now. I had a good look at his feet tonite and when you look at the angle of his front feet he does seem to have a very slight dip below the corinet band. He still sore as you would expect but his feet are stone cold. I will post some pictures when i get the flash to work.

[eventerbabe]

we spent over £10,000 (yes ten THOUSAND) pounds getting our pony right and back on her feet over a period of about 5 years. And the laminitis had done so much damage, vet and i think it's what damaged her gut and started off the lesion and grass sickness which killed her.

Has your vet offered to send the x-rays to the laminitis clinic? they do have an x-ray referral service, costs about £75+ but might be worth thinking about? you'll be getting a true laminitis experts opinion on what's going on then.

It's unfortunate that there are not guarentees with a disease like laminitis (my vet was always telling me that!). Nobody can guarentee that a horse will come sound, or not get the disease again.

[scrappydoo]

:eek: :eek: god that is a lot of money, did the insurance pay all of that ? I will see if my vet will send the xrays to the lami clinic.

Im going to discuss everything with the vet tomorrow, deep down i know what hes going to say.

Its exactly 3 weeks today, he has improved since the first few days, but he is the same every day now, he does walk on egg shells and he trys to reverse everywhere so he doesnt have to turn bless him. I must of been dreaming when he walked across the yard looking sound.

[eventerbabe]

no, the insurance paid about £800 because that was the cost of treating her first attack. After that she'd an exclusion on her policy for laminitis so we paid the rest (well over 9 grand) ourselves for all her subsequent attacks. Once they've had laminitis once, they can get it again from any number of sources.

[scrappydoo]

I really feel for you and anyone that has been through this, please excuse me from asking you this, would you do exactly the same again ? I know its an awful question to ask and your love for your horse comes first. What was your horses prognosis at first.

I feel really terrible as im unable to get the money to pay the treatment, even if i max out my credit cards i still wont have enough, also i dont know if i am strong enough to deal with the ups and downs, on the other side i cant face having him PTS and its so upsetting.

Well done to you anyway.

[eventerbabe]

would you do exactly the same again ?

yes, i wouldn't change a thing in the way we treated our laminitic. She kept having relapses because of the environment she was in so i do regret not realising sooner and getting her out of there. we did struggle, mum maxed out her credit cards and my dad chipped in for the majority of the money.

I remember being sat in her stable absolutely bawling my eyes out some days. i felt guilty for ramming meds down her throat but we did it because her prognosis was good. and she did come good for 2 years. losing her so suddenly brought it home to me that she really was worth every penny we spent on her care.

BUT, i couldn't have coped if i hadn't had parents (and grandparents) to fall back on, financially speaking. if i'd been on my own i probably wouldn't have been able to treat her.

Do they have any sort of finance plan? our vets are usually very good and do make allowances if you can't pay a hefty bill all at once. is your horse insured for vets fees? since it's not a pre-existing condition they should pay for it.

[scrappydoo]

He is only insured 3rd party, so it doesnt cover vets bill, i have had horses for years and all my other horses were fully insured and i never did have to claim, but once we bought a house money became tight, i just insured him for 3rd party only, thats just my luck!!

I have ran a bill at the vets up already for over £500 and im sure they would be happy to help me there, but then its the shoes ect ect on that. If my bill ran up like yours did i just wouldnt be able to pay it back.

My only other option would be to give him away to someone, i hate the thought but i suppose its better than having him PTS, then again i would worry about who was having him, and if they decided to sell him, that would be awful.

[mychance]

Sorry I noticed that you said that is was £400+ for plastic shoes at Leahurst.

My pony got plastic shoes yesterday due to having thin soles. The plastic shoes cost £250 from the remedial farrier at Leahurst. She did have to be sedated which of course was extra and the examination fee they will also charge but it wasnt near £400. Ponies have to be sedated due to the trickiness of fitting the shoes, they cannot put their foot down until the shoe is completely on. To be honest our ponies two front feet were done in the matter of minutes with the actual plastic shoes being prepared. It wasnt long at all.

[Jessey]

Hey Scrappydoo, hiow are things today?
I spoke with my YO about the horse who had lami badly 3 years ago. His xrays showed his pedal bone was rotated to the point it was at the sole, he was in a really bad way and terriblly lame, her farrier put pads on his feet, really think ones which were taped on, she said they were not horribly expensive and she just removed and re duct taped them regularly, she said they gave instant relief to the horse. He wore them for months and spent 7 months on box rest but this time of complete rest allowed him to make a really good recovery and he is now back in full work.
The YO had another pony who had the sunken foot, they did the resection on him and again used pads and he went back to the riding school fine. She feels the pads and rest are the key, but obviously don't always work.

[scrappydoo]

Jessie, thanks for finding that out, thats interesting, and again it just gives me a bit of hope, i wonder if i could just have the pads?

Mychance, i wonder if they are cheaper because you are at leahurst and the farrier is already there and the vets are already on stand by?

When i asked how much, he said they are £300 just for the shoes, thats without the resection, and i have to have a vet present so it would be around £400 + to have it done at home.

Are there different types of plastic shoes? Mychance is your pony on livery at leahurst? Im just wondering how long my horse would have to stay in leahurst , if its around £250 i could just about afford to have that done, but then isnt it about £70 a day livery ?

I have the vet coming again monday morning and he is bringing the farrier with him, so im not sure what they will be doing as they know i have limited funds.

I have been on the lami clinic website and it says a resection shouldnt be done before 6 weeks of foundering, does anyone know why that is ?

[scrappydoo]

I forgot to ask how long do these shoes last, i asked the farrier if they can be re-used but they cant.

[mychance]

I forgot to ask how long do these shoes last, i asked the farrier if they can be re-used but they cant.

The shoes cant be used again as they are rasped off. The shoes last as long as a normal trim I was told, so our pony normally gets new shoes every six weeks so I imagined they would last six weeks. Im not sure though. We have another appointment in two weeks time to check how she is doing on them but the farrier did say there would be no more work on her feet.

My own farrier was going to do them for £180 but as our pony is frightened of sprays and they use an aersol of liquid nitrogen at the end to freeze the shoes on I knew they wouldnt be able to do that without sedating her but the remedial farrier did say they sedate all the ponies.

Have you been into the Imprint Shoes web page? It makes very interesting reading and also shows you step by step how the shoes are actually put on. I emailed Mr Poynton too and he did reply to me so if you have any queries send him an email and Im sure he will answer.

www.imprintshoes.co.uk

[scrappydoo]

thanks thats a really interesting site with positive results.

[scrappydoo]

Its been a month today since i found my boy with laminitis. It comes with great sadness to let you all know my much loved baby was PTS as we were unable to manage his pain anymore. I cant hold the tears back and have never suffered such a heartbreaking loss, he was part of my family and i will miss him so much.

I just want to thank every one here for all their help and advice and if id of know sooner what to do he may of still been here today.

He went with such dignity and i have to thank my vet and the pet cremitorium for helping through the most awful suituation in my life.

[CurlyWurlyRach]

im so sorry
*enormous hugs for you*

it sounds like it was the right thing to do and im sure he knew how much he was loved.
xxx

[Laura+Phantom]

Oh god, you poor thing :( You did absoutely everything you could for him though and i'm sure he knew how much you loved him and how much you were trying to help him. You did the right thing by him, and he is in peace now and pain free. Don't blame yourself :(

[Jessey]

Oh hun I know just how terrible you must be feeling right now (((((((Hugs))))))) :(

[Big Ears]

i'm so sorry for you, it's an awful thing to have to do

[Gill]

So very sorry for you. I've followed this thread all through, having been through L with my own pony a few years ago. All I can say is try not to feel guilty, you have done everything you possibly could.
Take care, Gill x

[martini55]

I'm so sorry, please do not feel guilty as you did everything you could. Sending hugs your way and take care x

[lor]

I've also been following this thread. May i offer my deepest sympathy. I can only imagine how you feel, but, you did do the right thing. I hope lots of people read this thread and learn from it. Big HUG X

[mayoguinness]

Not been following this thread but I'm very sorry to here of your loss :(

[eventerbabe]

i've only just read this, hun, i'm so sorry :( do NOT blame yourself, you did your best for him. lots of cyber hugs. take care of yourself xxx

[MelanieD]

*hugs*

[mychance]

Oh dear I am so sorry to hear this, I have followed your thread from start to finish and am so very very sorry.

[Bebe]

I'm very sorry for your loss, my heart goes out to you.

[becs]

Only just found this thread again, since the site was rearranged.

So sorry to hear what you've been through. Did the same 11 years ago and it still hurts - she was 26 though.

I hope there'll be more scientific insights into laminitis in our lifetime - how to predict the vulnerable, prevention in more accurate ways, better treatments and aftercare.