Ringbone / navicular qu ....

[HorseHelen]

would ringbone or navicular (in early stages) show up on an xray?

im really worried about my horse ... she isnt showing to be lame as such but definitely will not bend to the right. my vet xrayed her 2 wks ago and said the xrays were clear but she's still not right

any information would be appreciated

[parsharainbow]

Yes it would - the reason horses become lame is that there is bony changes in the navicular bone itself so if the horse had become lame through navicular any changes in this bone would be apparent.

The same goes for ringbone, any changes in this area that were advanced enough to cause discomfort would indeed show up on an x-ray :)

I have a horse with both so feel free to PM if you wish - good luck :)

[MelanieD]

If the only problem is not bending to the right then you might be better off getting an osteopath or similar to treat her. There are many things that can make a horse not bend that aren't in the feet and might be missed by a vet.

[parsharainbow]

If the only problem is not bending to the right then you might be better off getting an osteopath or similar to treat her. .

couldn't agree more :) Just replied about this on the other thread :)

[Jessey]

Navicular syndrome is just a syndrome, not a specific problem with the bone, it is possible that it could be the connective tissues around it that are the problem, although generally it is boney and Xrays do show it.
A friend of mine reacently had her horse with no serious lameness but just a mild lameness and uncharacteristic behaviour (kicking out etc) she had him checked and he went to The Animal Healthcare Trust at Newmarket for further investigations, after Xrays etc the vet seemed to have an incling but couldn't say for sure what the problem was so they spent out an extra £1400 and had an MRI scan done - this proved navicular syndrome was playing a part in this horses behaviour.
Best of luck :o

[parsharainbow]

Navicular syndrome is just a syndrome, not a specific problem with the bone, it

http://www.equinenaturaltherapy.com/navicular_syndrome.htm

This explains in detail the different types of 'navicular' you can have, like Jessey said it can be tendon-related but usually due to roughening of the bone and the tendons moving against it - hopefully this should give you more idea :)

[Pink's lady]

There is a lack of corrolation between clinical findings and x-ray findings. You can have a horse that hobbling lame with 'navicular' with next to no bone re-modeling and horse totally sound with a completely knackered navicular bone.

But echo the others- not lame but not bending doesn't sound like navicular - that usually shows as toe-first walking and pottery on being turned tightly (left or right) with reaction to hoof testers over the heel. Although sore frogs etc give the same findings. I would be looking into hock lameness (eg spavin) and back/neck stiffness (often closly related).

[HorseHelen]

thanks for all your replies & advice ....

the vet came out to look at her again today, we lunged her in the yard car park to have a look. she wasnt too bad on the left rein but she is actually still lame on a right bend (but not hopping lame like she was a week last friday). the vet said she had made a 50% improvement in her lameness since last friday when he did the steroid injection into her joint. then we trotted her up in a straight line and he said she looked sound and also did a flexion test with no sign of any problem. so basically she is only mildly to moderately lame on a right bend but sound in a straight line

so he told me to just lightly hack her for 4 weeks and we would reassess her then but gave me no indication about what he thought the problem was. so i asked about ringbone (he had mentioned it as an unlikely possibility 2 wks ago) and he said ringbone in its early stages would not show up on an xray. however the fact that she injured herself in the school (she tripped badly about 6 wks ago) might suggest a ligament or muscle strain which presumably take a long time to heal as they do with humans as otherwise it would have occured more gradually

parsharainbow - do you think she would be lame (as described above) if it is early stages of ringbone? (it must be early stages if at all because otherwise it would have shown up on the x-ray)

the things that concern me at this stage are:

i) the vet cannot make a diagnosis at this stage
ii) the fact she is sound on the straight but lame on a circle. if it was ligament damage would she not be unsound in a straight line as well?
iii) if it is ligament damage then shouldnt she be on complete box rest rather than light hacking?

any comments would be appreciated

[Pink's lady]

) the vet cannot make a diagnosis at this stage
Not at all unusual, unless you want to spend a huge amount of money on diagnostics. There is so much that can go wrong with the legs, much of it doesn't have charateristic signs, and they can't tell you where it hurts.

ii) the fact she is sound on the straight but lame on a circle. if it was ligament damage would she not be unsound in a straight line as well
Circling differenatiates left and right and puts more pressure on the inside leg, so they can't use the other to compensate. It's not about the turning that causes the lameness rather the lack of support from front and back - they HAVE to use the sore leg.

[HorseHelen]

thanks for your reply pinks lady ... what you say about circling definitely makes sense, i was thinking along similar lines myself but wasnt sure

its just so frustrating not knowing what the cause is or if she willl make a full recovery or not :mad:

[parsharainbow]

I'm assuming its a front leg - your post doesn't say, when you turn her in a tight circle is she crossing herfront legs properly? Try it both ways! My horse was always about 1/10th lame on a right turn and it did make him very stiff and unable to bend on the one rein.

The other thing that showed up with my horse is that he was very heavy on one front foot, Poohsmate actually noticed this before me, it was a definate thud when he put his front right foot down in walk, because he was favouring the one leg he became 'one sided' muscle wise - showing quite a bit of atrophy on the one diagnol, which made him very crooked and unable to bend thus making the problem more severe, I used to have a Bowen session monthly which would straighten him out and he would bend really nicely afterwards.

In answer to your question it is possible but I'd have expected to see something on the x-ray for ringbone/sidebone/navicular to cause some sort of lameness, my guess is that its soft tissue damage especially if she's come almost sound so quickly (I'm assuming here she's not on bute as you didn't say).

What is she like on different types of ground, mine would be slightly lamer on hard ground and then make an improvement on sand

[HorseHelen]

hi parsharainbow, thanks for your advice, its been really helpful

in reply to your question ...

the lameness is showing up on her front right leg but also partially on her front left leg (but this may be because she is compensating for the fact that she is putting more weight on it due to the fact that her right leg hurts perhaps?). the vet didnt think the lameness was that severe but agreed she definitely didnt look right

she hasnt been on bute for at least 4 weeks now (she had some when the vet first came out about 5 wks ago now) but she did have a steroid injection into her coffin bone joint a week last friday, which is perhaps why the lameness has lessened over the past wk

she is definitely more lame on a hard surface i.e. when we lunged her in the car park because in the sand school she didnt actually feel lame, she was just absolutely refusing to bend right

******************************

to give you a brief background on her. i bought her just over a year ago, she wasnt very well schooled (or so i thought at the time), she wouldnt bend really well in either direction and seemed to be unbalanced especially in canter. however, with a few months of consistent schooling she started to come really round and soft and in november/december time she was working the best she ever has

however at the start of this year she tripped up fairly badly in the school, i pulled up her too sharply to avoid crashing into the back of the ride whilst i was having a lesson. she almost completely lost her footing and had me off. then the day after that she wasnt right, she didnt feel lame but definitely wasnt bending to the right

the vet came out and gave her bute and told me to take it easy with her and that she should be fine. during that week her hind right leg became swollen and slightly heated and her hoof wall was bruised but with cold hosing this went away after a few days

however a week later she still wasnt right... the vet came out again, did a thorough examination and decided to nerve block her coffin joint, then she came up sound again when we lunged her in the car park. so he thought the best thing to do was xrays, which didnt show up anything. then he did a steroid injection into her coffin bone joint a week last friday

however on sunday night (2 days ago) she was still not right, she didnt feel lame in the school but definitely wouldnt bend right & she seemed lively in herself but obviously not too happy

so the vet came out yesterday and had another look and suggested light hacking and would reassess her in 4 wks time

*********************

sorry that its long but any more advice you can offer would be fanastic

just to ask you another question: do diseases like ringbone have a more gradual effect or can it be the way that they are fine one week and then two weeks later they are lame?

i suppose the fact that she tripped over and injured herself one week and then wasnt right after that makes it more likely its not ringbone but i could be wrong

also you mentioned that it could be soft tissue damage ... if this was the case would she need to be on box rest? i ask because the vet has advised
me to carry on hacking her since she seems to be happy in a straight line

apologies for the length of this post but the response is greatly appreciated :)

[parsharainbow]

Ok firstly the fact that she's more sound on soft ground like sand would imply that it is more to do with bone than soft tissue, Red always went sound on sand within 1 stride whereas he'd be mildly lame on hard ground, have you considered Pedal Osteitis which can be degeneration of the Pedal bone?? It was this that caused Red's lameness/unsoundness and not his navicular? It can come on suddenly after a trauma, my horse's did, he was fine in the middle of december and lost a shoe 2 days before Christmas on a hack two years ago and the following day he was literally crippled, it took two months and imported drugs to get him sound again (theres more about his treatment on my web page in the link below). Are you noticing any heat in her foot at all?? Heat is usually a sign of soft tissue damage and not skeletal damage, I know my vet suspected a broken pedal bone originally with Red as there was no heat in his foot but he was hopping lame and a nerve block was showing it was the foot area. The fact that your horse is showing a bi-lateral lameness is odd, have they nerve blocked the worst leg to see whether she's actually lame in the other? that might be worth trying.

The other thing: Is she worse/'pottery' coming out of her stable in the morning if she's been kept in??? or is she better??:confused: Navicular and Pedal Osteitis usually show themselves as a horse being lame/stiff/pottery for the first few minutes if they've been kept in overnight, another sign of navicular in some horses is lameness for a couple of days after they've been shod.

Has she had a soft tissue scan at all, I would certainly ask for that and an x-ray of the pedal bone.

If she is showing signs of navicular or pedal osteitis box rest is the worst thing you can give them as they will sieze up, box rest for soft tissue damage depends on what tissue is damaged to be honest, if it were muscle tears or strains I would say turn her out as these need to be kept moving, tendons and ligaments I dont really know about and you'd probably need to ask your vet about that, I would assume however if the vet has been he'd have ruled out tendon and ligament damage.

I would however in the short term (until you reach a diagnosis) buy a pair of magnetic therapy boots, these actually increase the blood supply to the area and aid healing, they only need to be on for about 5 hours a day (anymore and it makes the area sweat for some reason) and they can't be exercised in them, I found them invaluable with my horse's problems and they really did help :)

Hope some of that has been of help, feel free to ask more if you need to know anything else or just want to sound off - I know what its like :)

[parsharainbow]

phew I think my post was as long as yours :D :D

[Jessey]

Hi, given your horse tripped and you may have snatched on the reins a bit to stop her from collideing with the back of the ride - have you had a chiro, physio or your vet (chiro or physio would be best) check out her back/neck/poll and shoulders etc.
If she has jarred a muscle/tendon in her neck/poll or shouder then this could easily show as bilateral lameness/unlevelsness and a resistance to bending and possibly resistant to work forwards and through from behind.
Although generally this would continue to show on hard or soft ground, but maybe the more forgiving school makes it easier?

[MelanieD]

If there is a problem in the foot, and not all of them show up on X ray and it's amazing what kind of foot some vets consider 'normal' ( :rolleyes: ), then a horse can appear to go lame quite suddenly if the foot balance is even slightly out. Normally if you're good at noticing that kind of thing you'd notice small problems with the way it's moving before any obvious lameness but it can be quite subtle. And if there's already problems then feet getting a bit long, a bad attempt at shoeing leaving the balance slightly out or just standing badly on something and bruising can produce more obvious lameness.

Navicular can't be diagnosed by a single set of X-rays anyway so can't exclude that. If you poke around at the top of the heel bulbs between the back of the foot and the back of the pastern and it feels squishy rather than solid then there could be weak internal structures in the foot, which is quite often what's really going on when it's declared 'navicular syndrome' and that's not something that shows up too well on X-ray. Watch the way she's walking and trotting in straight lines on a flat surface, does she land toe first or heel first? That can give you an idea of if the problem is in the front or back of the foot.

[HorseHelen]

parsharainbow, thanks for that post, must have taken you ages to do! :) its certainly given me a lot to think about, will have to research into Pedal Osteitis on the internet

in reply to your qu's ....

- theres absolutely no heat in her front legs
- the vet did nerve block her worst leg (front right) and she did come up sound after that
- i havent noticed her being particularly "pottery" first thing

am going to borrow a pair of magentic boots and see if that has any effect, thanx for the suggestion

the more i think about it and read about it the more convinced i am that it is navicular (i do worry too much!) but i think its justified this time unfortunately. i know i have to wait for the vet's diagnosis but it seems that could take a long time ....

can you give me any advice on the type of work that she would be restricted to if it is navicular or is it very much dependent on the individual horse?

Jessey, i have considered getting out a chiropractor, you may be right as she could have twisted her shoulder when she tripped. will ask when the chiropractor is available next

but i did have a lady who does equine sports massages out to her about a week and a half after she tripped. she basically works on the muscle but she couldnt find anything wrong in particular. but she did say she definitely wasnt as good on her right side as she was on her left which made sense

silly question i know but what does a chiropractor actually do? do they work on the muscles too or it is more to do with bones?

MelanieD - will have a feel of the back of her foot tomorrow when i go up and also i'll close look at her walking and trotting and see what she is doing

thanks for all your replies

[Jessey]

A chiro works mostly on realigning bones but will do a little muscle manipulation to allow that to happen.
As the nerve block brought her sound the chances of anything being wrong higher up are very limited - perhaps your massage person just found tension relating to this problem lower in the leg, could be nothing to do with the trip at all.

Re navicular it does seem to depend alot on the horse and just how bad and where it is, I knew one horse (she did have a terrible case) who was on bute most of the time, another was on warferin (don't think thats how its spelt :o) but then I know another who with a rubber pad under his shoes works 10 hour days on a cattle ranch in the mountains (USA) and is fine with it without any meds 99% of the time.

Just wanted to add, try not to read up too much on the net before you have a final diagnosis, my horse damaged his cartalige in his stifle last year - I spent ages on the net looking it up and alot of what was said was that with that problem he would never be sound again and it was likely to get worse quickly etc - with good veterinary care and box rest and careful exercise he is back in full work and doing really well - so really just to say don't believe it all, lots of the info is out of date (only by a couple of years but alot happens fast in vet practice) - just don't worry yourself too much before you know whats really going on :p

[parsharainbow]

- theres absolutely no heat in her front legs
- the vet did nerve block her worst leg (front right) and she did come up sound after that
- i havent noticed her being particularly "pottery" first thing


can you give me any advice on the type of work that she would be restricted to if it is navicular or is it very much dependent on the individual horse?


silly question i know but what does a chiropractor actually do? do they work on the muscles too or it is more to do with bones?




Ok to go out on a limb - If she's not pottery first thing or after being shod I would say that you probably haven't got much to worry about Navicular wise unless she 'eases up' after being worked in??? Horses that are moving around tend not to show the 'pottery' stance whereas horses that have been stood in tend to 'stiffen' if thats the right word after having stood still. Although going more sound on soft ground implies to me that its more 'bone' related than soft tissue damage especially if there's no heat :confused:

Don't panic yourself, Navicular is not the death sentance it used to be I know horses still doing XC with Navicular - with the right shoeing and on no painkillers :) Although I would never have done that with mine.

Just a thought?? have you thought that her pelvis may be out since her fall, my boy had a tilted pelvis which caused most of his one sidedness later on and not the navicular which had caused it in the begining, which was why I asked if there was any muscle wastage on either diagnol and may explain her reluctance to bend on one rein and this could also be showing up as referred pain as it did with Red.

When are you having the vet next? I'd be really interested to know what they say - PM if you want.

Big hugs as I know how stressful going through this is xxxxxxxxxx

[parsharainbow]

parsharainbow, thanks for that post, must have taken you ages to do! :)

oh and no problem :) feel free to ask away I'm usually around somewhere :)

and if you want to know anything on Pedal Osteitis let me know - unfortunately I have first hand experience of that too

[HorseHelen]

just a quick update ....

lunged her tonight just to see how she was ... again she was pretty much sound on a left bend but still lame (but not horrendeously so) on the right bend & she was sound when trotted up in a straight line. am beginning to lose hope that she'll ever come sound again. its really frustrating, i miss her so much

one week to go before the vet comes again :mad:

[parsharainbow]

Sorry - only just seen your update :o

Has the vet been yet? and how did it go? :)

[HorseHelen]

hi parsharainbow, ive only just seen your reply too!

vet came out last wednesday .... she is now hopping lame on the right bend again but she's almost as bad on the left bend now too. again pretty much sound in a straight line

the vet thinks it likely that both coffin joints are affected & that she'll only be able to do light hacking ever again. he said we could repeat the nerve blocks and injection into the joints but is not overly optimistic about the results

so i have decided to turn her out for three months, put her on some kind of joint supplement and reassess her in june... then im going to take her to a bigger vet practice with better equipment etc and get a proper diagnosis and prognosis

its not looking too good at the moment though

[parsharainbow]

Tildren!!!

Red was so lame he couldn't even walk out of his stable without hobbling, within 4 weeks he was sound :)

A google search will bring up loads on it and if you want a more personal story theres a link to my website in my signature strip, and its Red's story you need to look at.

Remarkable drug, remarkable results :) oh and of course, Red's a remarkable horse ;)

Feel free to PM anytime you want :)

Let me know how you continue to get on :)