Im sure my horse hates me *long but please help*

[Kecka~Rocka]

This is kinda a follow on from WALLYS thread about what would you do.

BACKGROUND
I have a 10yr old cob who ive owned for nearly 2yrs. I have rode him on and off until last summer when i got a new instructor and i made progress riding nearly everyday and even hacking out on our own. When he first arrived with me he used to barged out of his stable, and when being led anywhere. He knows he is stronger than humans and when he wants to go, he goes!!!

I wasnt to bothered, yes its horrid and dangerous but i was a very nervous rider and thought well he good undersaddle , yes he did get told off when he did it and a whip was hung outside his stable incase he tempted to barge, he broke a few doors by pushing on them so i purchased a grill door so he couldnt push. Anyway with time he stopped doing it.

Anyway 2 years on and he doesnt push his door and now has had the grill removed. He very rearely bolts off when leading him anywhere and generally he has improved UNTIL NOW......


PROBLEM
He has become a monster, he swinges his bump at me if i ask him to do something he doesnt like. Most days he barges out of his stable as soon as you open the door and flys straight to the feed shed he has ripped a new rug and nearly broke my arm. He also banging the bottom of his door.

Simple tasks he just makes harder by not standing still or lifting his leg.

He is also getting panicky when other horses leave the yard which he has always done but he best friend is next door which he can see.

This may sound funny but he never seems to be a horse that likes humans, he hates cuddles, grooming and general contact with peeps. He adores his stable friend and gets very upset if he not near him. I never really thought he liked me or should i say respects me.

The change has happen in the last 2 weeks.

I cant decided what is wrong with him, his food hasnt changed and we dont really have a routine apart from feed times so thats not changed. The only thing which has changed is im riding him less (which should suit him as he perfers to do nothing) and im exercsing his friend my other horse more, which involves my cob being left alone for short periods daily.

We also did a spot of join up with him for the first time, which i thought he wouldnt give in easy and he didnt. He didnt do the signs (licking lips, head lowering etc..) and as soon as i turned my back he just started grazing, we gave it in the end as he was getting tired from trotting around, has this upset his way he sees us now and wants to make sure he top dog again?

I did wonder about being in pain, but no physical signs, he is eating fine, playing fine etc.. just his aditude latley.

Any ideas what could be making him like this?
And how i can solve it?

Its a visous circle as he makes me mad so i shout and have smaked him then he gives me that look like grrrr hate you!! then i go home feeling bad, and saying new start tomoz then he does something bad again, its getting, so i dread doing anything with him which is not right :(

[Bebe]

No answers yet, just more questions from me I'm afraid. Might help get to the bottom of things though.

The only thing which has changed is im riding him less (which should suit him as he perfers to do nothing) and im exercsing his friend my other horse more, which involves my cob being left alone for short periods daily.


What does your cob do when he's left alone? Where is he left alone - field or stable? Is there no option of turning him out with another horse?

we gave it in the end as he was getting tired from trotting around,

How long was he made to trot for? How experienced are you at join-up? Why did you think it would help?

It sounds to me like you've got several issues going on and you're going to have to get to the bottom of them all to see progress.

As far as your cob goes, it strikes me that he's either nervous himself and is looking for a leader. Since you can't be that leader he has to take over but doesn't like it, hence the behaviour. Or, he has no respect for you at all and just feels he can push you around. Either way, this has got to change but how you go about it depends on which one you're dealing with.

It also sounds like you need to become more confident on the ground and learn how to deal with his problems. It doesn't necessarily sound like you've deal with his problems head on, just worked around them as best you can which isn't necessarily a bad thing but since you're asking for help I'm guessing that's not enough anymore.

[Kecka~Rocka]

I have left him in his stable with haylage, a small feed and a horse treat ball (i read somewhere when leaving horses alone that dislike it make it a possative experince with food or grooming etc), now this horse does anything for food so i did that, and he eats a mouth full then neighs eats then neighs. He has also been left in the field too and is alot better as he can see his friend in the school, but sometimes its not practical for whatever reasons. He also gets upset if i take my other horse out the stable to groom or tack up, i understand he might think the other horse is going but its not always the case.

I do join up with my other horse who response well, especially when being led now, i thought it might show my cob we can understand him if only for a few moments. Ive read on join up and follow a book, wouldnt say i was brilliant at it. I just ask him to move away from me and changed his direction we the whole join up for about 15mins, as i said earlier he likes his food and stopped to graze when ever i took the pressure off, he even trotted and ate!!!

[Laura2184]

My God it sounds like your describing my boy.. :rolleyes: Sorry no answers but youre not on your own with this one! Looking forward to reading the replies.

[Pink's lady]

Do he live on his own? Or is there a change in herd dynamics? It sounds like he's become unsettled about being left by other horses for whatever reason.

But whatever the reason he has no excuse what so ever to treat you like that and he is just being a bad mannered rude sod and it has to stop. It sounds like he's discovered your a push over and he can what ever the hell he likes since you're of no consiquence:mad: He's feeling insecure about being left on his own and since he now feels you're not up to the job of being a good herd-leader he's just going to make his own arangments.

Doing the join up and failing hasn't really help - all it's proved to him is that you really aren't worth listening to and eating is much easier:o Join up done badly is worse than not at all.

I would suggest going someone out to help you and show you how to be a good leader and gain so of that respect back again. They will show you ground work ( not join-up) exercises and body-language and may be able to pink point his problem. The exercises are simple and easy to follow (they vary slightly from person to person but are the same idea) and involve having control of moving his feet and keep his attention on you.

[horse babe]

how experienced are you with join-up? and have you done it too your other horse? if so did it make a difference in the same ways too your cob???

Also you may think that your horse prefers too not be ridden alot but this could also be a reason try and exercise him a bit more too get some energy out of him then maybe he might not be as "bossy".

Most of the horses i have looked after have been turned out in the day and stabled at night this is a good routine too get into...if you get too your stables in the morning and feed then turnout when they are done eating if you have enough time you can mick out after you have turned out but if you dont you can do it before you bring him in later on also if he is ok once he has his food you could tie him up outside the stable (this is in the morning) and muck out whilst he eats then it all gets done

like i said you might not have enough time too do all this but maybe some osrt of routine might make a little bit of a difference so he knows when and what is going too happen

is his friend yours? if so could they be turned out, baught in and fed at the same time?

shiv x

[NoviceNic]

Have you had someone out to check his back??? My sister's youngster has turned into a demon over the last fortnight. They had a back person out and the youngster has trapped a nerve and was in pain so that is why is temperament changed overnight...Now he is back to being a loving, dope on a rope. :)

[MrDCBags]

Sorry still no answer. You could be describing my old horse.

I think I bought her as I felt sorry for her stuck in the field(not the best criteria I know that now!). We got her home and it was clear she had been mistreated in her life. She would try and frighten us so that we wouldn't hurt her.

I had just got back into riding and decided I needed to buy a horse and persuaded OH we needed another equine ( I bought my first one a small pony a few years previously- he is another story).

My beastie was a gem out on the road. we met a fire engine with lights and sirens on my first "quiet" hack out. What a horse! she was fab. She could be taken out on the stubble and you could pull her up in the middle and she would walk until you asked for more. BUT there was always something that wasn't quite right, I couldn't trust her, especially on the ground. She seemed so stand offish and although you could see she wanted loving she couldn't bring herself to be loved if that makes sense?

In all of this my friend had started to ride her once a week as a share type thing. she erode her for a couple of years. Anyway things went pear shaped at my yard and had to give up land etc. Got a new home for pony (he lives at our riding stables and is being brought on wit my human son)but felt the old girl needed something different.

She went to my friends initially jsut as a safe place to go. I had always said that if I was ver to sell her it would only be to my friend. We both came to the same conclusion that the time was right and she bought the horse off me paying off in instalments.


i then panicked that I didn't have anything of my own and after a lot of research found a fabby hairy cob. My old girl was a traditional coloured cob (14.2) and slightly small as I have very long legs and even longer arms(I think I may have been a gibbon in the past). My new guy is 16.2 and slightly younger than the mare.

The big difference is that I trust him completely. We just get on perfectly and ironically my mare gets on so much better with my friend. The one thing that I personally learned from this is that like people horse's have their own personalities and that when making friends there is a draw to a sort of personality. I think at thend of the day we clashed and if we were both humans we would be polite and friendly and pass idle gossip but we would not share intimate details, ask opinions have rows and make friends again. My new chap I can see with me until we can weave the whiskers on our chins together.

Sorry to have banged on but your post did strike a chord and that is the first time I have admitted in public that I had the wrong horse!

[Joyscarer]

I would recomend going back to basics with the groundwork re Parelli or Kelly Marks (they seem much of a muchness) as this works through body language.

Having said that there is not a lot to be gained by practising this on your own horse to begin with if he is going to be a sod and you haven't got the confidence/skills to do this so is there a docile horse you could have a practice with?

[Lora]

If I give him a constant buddy, he will bond with the other horse and we are in trouble. He would start biting more, rearing on the lead, even loading up in his stall to keep anyone from coming in. Could be a right-arse about people when he's pair bonded.

So when he starts that nonsense, I move him, and increase his exercise. I don't know if you're able to do that though. Sometimes just a few stalls away from his buddy will fix my gelding's attitude and allow me to work with him (parelli) alone doing the exercises and asserting myself as his leader and partner.

I have my gelding turning out with a pony that is nowhere near his stall and seems to work well. (crossing fingers as we have your same issues at times)

I don't think he hates you but do think you're going to have to single him out and work one on one extensively for a while. The others have some good advice so will leave to them more experienced than I.

[Cupcake]

Your describing my horse :D But in mare form...

Skye's very "Go away... i said go away!... ok you've asked for it!!"
Some horses just aren't affectionate, they rather horses to people. Kind of like me, I like animals more than people. Skye will let me cuddle her sometimes, and others I will be met with ears flat and a very swishy tail.

Sad as it is to see I never think she hates me, just doesn't like me much. I don't exercise Skye much because I don't think she needs it. But i know for a fact that she would be much happier and less moody if I did. Sadly that's not an option with my lack of time.

He has the upper hand on the ground, which your fully aware of. But when your riding him you MUST make sure your in control at all times and hopefully this will lead to changes on the ground.

Have I see this lovely man before... pics? :D

[Bay Mare]

It sounds to me like you could do with getting someone in who has experience with problems in horses. Doing Join Up shouldn't be the first thing that you do (IMO) especially if you haven't been taught how to do it properly. I know from experience that JU done incorrectly or without proper attention to body language can cause more problems than it solves!

I would recommend an Intelligent Horsemanship Recommended Associate (http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk) as I've had very good experiences with them. I do think that you need to be shown what to do at first (groundwork, long reining etc) as there is no way you can learn correctly and accurately from a book or DVD.

The problem with using aggression (the whip) to 'solve' the problem is that there's the possibility that you'll just dominate the horse so they'll do what you want even if they don't want to or they'll push back even harder so the problem just escalates. Punishment is appropriate for dangerous behaviour but is not as a long term solution.

I would also want to put your horse in a herd environment. I may have misunderstood but I get the impression that your horse is often left on his own? Horses are social animals, they NEED other horses for protection, to learn discipline and to play. Humans and other animals AREN'T a substitue for other horses.

I would also look at getting as much turnout as possible, they get to blow off the excess energy so are easier to handle. They will also learn good behaviour as part of the herd (not that you won't have to work on it too). If you can't give more turnout then more exercise though more turnout is preferable.

I doubt that he hates you but I do think that he seems to disrespect you. I'd definitely be getting a professional in if I were you. You need to be aware of how you're portraying yourself to him, though. If you keep smacking him and are generally annoyed with him he will be picking up on this and behaving accordingly.

Other things to consider are what feed he's on (Saffy can't have hard feed and goes psycho on Pasture Mix), if he's got any physical problems that are causing him to be grumpy and generally why he's not happy with life at the moment.

[Kecka~Rocka]

Thanks for all your replies ill try and anwser some of the questions..

Mickey is the horse in question and his mate is sparko my other horse, they are stabled next to each other with a grill between. They generally get turned together out every morning approx 8am and come in about 1-2 for exercise. I have started to exercise sparko more than usually as ive just started to ride him again in over a year and doing ground work with him. Mickey is left in the stable with feed and a freind usually next door but one. He is only left for a max of 30mins then sparko comes in and i do something with mickey, lunge,ride,lose school etc... Now mickey really doesnt like work,he hardly ever do a full curcit on the lunge line although since ive had proper lessons on him he is a little more willing.

I do believe he doesnt really like people, dont think he has been cruely treated in the past or anything but he just perfers horses to humans. I used to wish we had a great bond like my other horse but we dont, he hates fuss and grooming. I even tried to give him a little massage once and he just stompted his feet and keep moving, he only my best friend when food is about.

I sometimes wonder if ive made the situation worse by doing everything with the both of them together, ie turnout, feeding, grooming, they hardly ever got split up. Sparko is happy to be on his left on his own for periods but mickey turns into a looney neighing and general panic. There is no way you can do anything while he is on his own, simple job like grooming is a nightmare, he just switches off to me and just goes into blind panic for sparko.


He definaltly doesnt respect me, he doesnt move over or back up when asked and his worst habbit which seems to be raising its ugly head is his bolting to either feed rooms, field or stable where his feed is (we have now stopped putting it in their until he is already in his stable)

I just dont know how to make him respect us, atm we turning out and bringing in with a chiffney as this stops the bolting. And when we want to get in the stable im having to shout "back" at him to make sure he out the back so he wont suddenly barge out. But these things control the situation and not solve it, its strange as Mickey in the company of others is so relaxed. Out hacking on his own he is a little worried, and definaltly rushes on way home but he controls his fear.

[Bronya]

When I did join-up with my horse, Mysti, it took over 40mins until she would lick and chew. If you stop before they've given in, then they do lose respect for you, how much they lose depends on their personality I guess.

He needs to learn to see you as the herd leader. If he does, then he'll be happy with just you, and will behave better. Getting someone in to help you is a good idea. I worked from the book 'Dancing with Horses' because the stuff in there was easy to use and worked 100% on her, and my bolshy pony (who's now lovely to handle).

If you get him to see you that way, he'll be competing for your attention, not to stay with his buddy. Then the worst punishment in the world is for you to ignore him, and pay extra attention to your other horse!