Feeding for condition without the fizz

[Hayz]

Hiya,

My new horse comes on Friday, (Hopefully), but needs more weight on her and has not alot of condtion(No topline what so ever). So what can I feed her to put the weight on but not make her fizzy? I thought of topline conditioning cubes or calm and condition but the first may make her fizzy and the second sent my friends mare loopy!

[Jessey]

The thing to do is aim to feed as high fibre diet as possible, you may find that she will gain weight on just fibre - highly strug (those predisposed to fizziness) horses often will stress off their weight when fed lots of mixes etc.

What you want is slow release energy to gain weight, fats (oils) are very good for this and fibre, where for fizziness you feed sugars, starch and protein - which most mixes and nuts are high in all 3, so thats why its best to avoid them as much as possible.

Start with adlib god quality hay, perhaps adding some high fibre haylage to top that up. Giving hard feeds consisting of mostly Alfalfa with supplemental oil will be a good place to start - I also like to add unmolassed sugar beet (speedybeet or the like) and grass nuts as these are both high fibre slow release energy so should help pack on the pounds without excess energy.

A good guide to feeding is you should always feed by weight (not scoops) and as per condition. The general rule is a horse needs 1.5% of total body weight to loose weight, 2% to maintain weight and up to 3% to gain weight.

If for example the horse was 600kg (you would need to weigh tape her) then to maintain her current weight (2% ratio) she would need 12kg of feedstuffs per day, at least 75% of this should be forage (but up to 100% can be forage) so working on that she would need at least 9kg of hay/haylage/grass going in per day and only 3kg of hard feed per day.

If you find after a few weeks she is really not improving then there are a few options, conditioning cubes should be fine, they shouldn't give to much energy but you can never tell :rolleyes: calm and condition should be great or ride and relax - though my mare got very hyper on that so its a bit of trial and error. I really like Baileys number 1, I have never had a horse fizz up on it yet and its great for weight :D Barley is great for weight gain but can fizz them up :p

J x

[Hayz]

Hehe!

Thanks, she will get as much hay as she can eat :) and at grass for 12 hours a day on fairly good grass. So apart from that alfalfa or grass nuts and speedy-beet with oil. ??? :o

I dont know thats shes fizzy but she seems as though she could fizz if that makes sense?? :rolleyes:

Whats the difference in chaff and alfalfa is is just the oil?

Hayz x

[Giveitago]

Try the SS total eclipse balancer too for coat, minerals etc.

[Giveitago]

And for bulk I use the SS Just grass with a gulp of soya oil.

[andreaB]

i obviously don't know the horse but my personal choice would be bailey's no 4 & alfa a oil

[Jessey]

Whats the difference in chaff and alfalfa is is just the oil?
Generally alfa in the Uk comes as a chaff (as in a short chopped forage feed stuff) but I guess the chaff you referr to is Mollychaff and the like?

Chaff is just chopped oat straw normally covered in molasses, this is just a bulker and provides very little nutritional value but the molasses can make some horses fizzy.
Where alfalfa is a legume which is a type of leafy plant that is highly nutritious (lots of trace elements) whilst it is high in fibre. Dengie make an alfa range - Alfa lite (no covering) Alfa A is molasses covered and Alfa Oil which is oil covered, for ease Alfa oil just saves you adding extra oil to the diet, AlfaA is good for tempting fussy eaters and Alfa Lite for fatties :D

I would definatly second the Simple systems range - check out their website as it does give lots of info on feeding fibre diets, it benifits etc :D

[chickflick1066]

I'm with AndreaB, Baileys No.4 Topline Conditioning cubes are fab ;)

[amandal]

Alfa A Lite has molasses extract as the covering, I'd go for Alfa Oil or ring Simple Systems up and ask for their advice.

[Retty]

Had a horse years ago that needed condition putting on - fed her bluechip original, it certainly didn't fizz her up and the results were amazing - I would highly recommend it.

[coss]

soya oil (although some horses get fizzy on oil) and cooked flaked barley. both should help put the weight on and schooling and work will get the muscle on.

[puzzles]

jesseys has written pretty much my mind.
oil contains 2.25 times the energy amount found in normal compound feeds, but as it is released slowly it is more likely to condition and provide sparkle without fizz.
you must feed a high fibre diet; if your horse is in light to moderate work then he should be receiving at least 70-80% good quality forage (soaked/steamed hay preferably, or haylage).

as all mixes tend to contain a lareger amount of starch, sugar and less fibre when compared to a cube, i recommend that you either feed a high-fibre, low-starch and low-energy cube (such as Spillers High Fibre Cubes) or, even better, one of the Dengie Fibre feeds: such as Alfa-Lite (for horses in moderate-medium work who need a low-sugar diet, such as laminatics, fizzy horses or good doers) or Hi-Fi Lite (for similiar horses in rest or light work); however the feed you use and the amount of it depend on the individual horse, so i strongly sugest that you contact Dengie by email/phone (see the website) for more specific, professional advice (they are very helpful!).
these Dengie feeds are contain slow-release energy and high amounts of fibre (generally several times more than the average 'high-fibre' mix or cube) and valuable protein and calcium too, in particular.
for more enrgy/condition you can add some oil each day; three of the best including Soya, Corn and Linseed (Flax).
you will need to feed about 2-2.5kg of a high-fibre cube each day to supply your horse with a balanced diet, or if you feed less (check the bag) or use oneof the Dengie Fibre feeds then you'll need to add either a feed balancer or vitamin and mineral supplement. high quality examples of feed balancers are Blue Chip Original/Lami-Light and Baileys Lo-Cal, and vit & min supplements; NAF Pink Powder, and Global herbs Globalvite. all alongside plenty of (preferably ad-lib) forage of course!
good luck, and if you're still in a muddle then please feel free to PM me! i also ride and have cared for fizzy types like yours; he sound lovely!
:-)

[Vix3n]

I swear by baileys number 4 and plenty of hay. So which one did you go for? Was it the mare?:) Sorry if you are now freaking out that you have a stalker.... relax, I've read some of your posts:D
Good luck with new ned:)

[Hayz]

Hiya

Ok, so 2 feeds of Baileys number 4, alfalfa and speedi-beet with as much hay as she can eat (And grass)

vix3n- I did get the mare, comes today :D

[Libbyo]

Good luck for today. Everything is crossed for you.

Cilla needed to put on condition. I did 3/4 scoop conditioning cubes+ half scoop chaff twice a day+ hay.

She has done very well on this and looks amazing.

Cant find the before picture this morning. GRRR

Libbyo :)

[Hayz]

Aww she is so pretty! :)

My mares hip bones are showing but she is not ribby and its not a bloated wormy belly :) (She does have a big bum:p )

[HorseManiac]

Dengie Alalfa A Oil is v good.

So are bailey No 4 conditioning mix!!:) :)

[Pink's lady]

so 2 feeds of Baileys number 4, alfalfa and speedi-beet with as much hay as she can eat

Sounds like a good plan. I would use Alfa-Oil instead of Alfa-A thought - it's the same price roughly (actually a bit cheaper by voloum) and much higher in energy.

I'd also buy Pink Power (by NAF) as a one off - it's about £20 for a 100day supply and has made a huge difference to Kalli. It will help kick start her digestion, give her all the minerals and bits she needs and once she's gained what she needs you don't need to replace it.

[eml]

I agree in theory with what people are saying and Baileys top line with speedibeet or readibeet are my feeds of choice.

However can I just add a caution that unless the horse's condition is very bad I would not rush to put on condition but get to know the horse first.

Spring is coming and this is usally the point of the year that horses are at their 'poorest' and as nature intends the spring grass with higher protein will be here soon providing natural conditioning..

[joshes mum]

Alfa a oil brilliant stuff ours are all fed it and it hasn't made the slightest difference to their temperment.:D

[Hayz]

Sounds like a good plan. I would use Alfa-Oil instead of Alfa-A thought - it's the same price roughly (actually a bit cheaper by voloum) and much higher in energy.

I'd also buy Pink Power (by NAF) as a one off - it's about £20 for a 100day supply and has made a huge difference to Kalli. It will help kick start her digestion, give her all the minerals and bits she needs and once she's gained what she needs you don't need to replace it.

By energy is that potential fizz? :)

I was going to get a supplement for hoofs (Formula for feet) would I need both? (I know there diffent but would the powder help hoof growth as very flat heel)

Would she need anything to bulk it out? :)

[Hayz]

I agree in theory with what people are saying and Baileys top line with speedibeet or readibeet are my feeds of choice.

However can I just add a caution that unless the horse's condition is very bad I would not rush to put on condition but get to know the horse first.

Spring is coming and this is usally the point of the year that horses are at their 'poorest' and as nature intends the spring grass with higher protein will be here soon providing natural conditioning..

Hiya

I understant what your saying its just her hip bones are very visable but she isnt that ribby. She has no muscle what so ever :)

[carrimclaren]

I'm no expert on feeds but from previous experience i'd watch it if you do start to feed her Alpha A and make sure you get the quantity right. There's several on our yard that react to it and it makes them more fizzy than usual. Also i'd probably not put her on on a hoof supplement until you've spoken to your farrier and see what he thinks of her feet first. I was going to put mine on a formula but with using Stockholm tar and cornucrescine her feet have improved so much . I'm always hesitant about adding too many supplements as half the time you don't know quite what you're feeding. Def. see what sort of girlie she is first and then go from there.

[Pink's lady]

Alfa-Oil is meant to be very non-fizzy. For horses that react, it's because of the alfalfa (which means they'd react to any alfalfa product). Alfa-Oil is even less 'fizzy' than Alfa-A as it contains no mollases at all. It's also much higher in digestible engery ('read 'weight gain') than Alfa-A due to the oil in it. Alfa-A is really meant to be for horses in hard work that needs a little extra 'oomph'

I would go for the Pink Powder first (it's got all the essential vits and mins as well as Biotin I think) then once it's run out, THEN get a foot supplement. It's like Yakkult for horses and seems to have worked really well for Kalli (I hadn't used it before but would reccomend it to anyone now).

And as you're feeding a really high fibre diet (a good thing) she won't need an extra bulk else she'll not manage to eat it all.

[Hayz]

Ahhhhhhhhhh ok. So maybe spedi-beet and No4 with the oil? Whats in the spedi-beet? (Why am I feeding it?) :)

Whats different in the alfa oil and say veggy oil?

She was meant to of been wormed 2 weeks ago :rolleyes: but if she was what wormer would be safe to give her as she has to be wormed before she can go out?


:eek: :eek: Only 3 hours and she will have arrived :eek:

And the boy will be going :(:(:(:(:(

[Pink's lady]

You better get food shopping then;)

Speedibeet (http://www.speedibeet.com/)is quick-soak sugar beet without the mollassas -it's quicker and easier and less fizzy for 'fizzy' horses. It's very high fibre and digested all in the hind gut, keeping them warm (not the same as 'heating' which is another word for 'fizz') , giving them a slow release energy (like eating a banana before an exam rather than a bag a sweets)

Alfa- (http://www.dengie.com/pages/products/fibre-feed/alfa-a-oil.php)Oil is a chaff (chopped short stuff) made from alfalfa (a thick stemmed dark green grass). It's impregnated with oil to add to it's calories. Oil is just that - oil (think gloopy stuff that's a pain in the ass when it spills every where;)). Adding straight oil (i.e veggie oil) to Alfa-A Lite would basically make it into Alfa-Oil but it's faffing and probably more expensive in the long run as you also need to suppplement Vit E to help with oil absorbtion and the oil in Alfa-Oil is extra specially digestable.

Balielys No4 (http://www.baileyshorsefeeds.co.uk/whatproduct/condition/no4.htm)is a pelleted wheat feed that's great for conditioning but due to the pellets it's not high in mollasses (mix feeds are coated in mollasses) and higher in fibre. It will still fizz up some horses but it's the best of a bad buynch. If you want NO fizzying you could feed more Alfa-Oil and no cubes. You may have to if the new mare is very fizzy.

[Hayz]

Thanks for the links :)

Ok so what about the wormer?

Its ok shopping tommorow (Just happens to be payday ;) :D ) Not sure if I should feed a hard feed tonight as I dont think she has been getting and i only have average pony nuts. :confused:

2-2.5 hours :eek: :D

[Pink's lady]

I would give her just speedibeet and Alfa-Oil tonight with plenty of hay then wean her onto the cubes if you think she needs it. I would also start the Pink Powder tonight if you're going to go with that.

Ask the feed store about wormers - they should have done a course on them to be allowed to sell them and will tell you what's best out of what they have.

[Hayz]

Ohhhh reading the links alfa oil is not the oil in a bottle I thought !! :o

[Pink's lady]

I thought you might have that misconseption, hence the link;):p ANd hence no 'bulking' needed.

[Hayz]

I am getting foods tommorow morning. I only have nuts at home

[Pink's lady]

didn't read it properly:o - just a big pile of hay and maybe scatter the nuts of the floor for her to find over-night (assuming she's stabled) isn'y going to kill her.

[Fizz]

i swear by black sunflower seeds,fabby things:D

[puzzles]

as those of us who have tried some kind of diet know already, no diet works without the added benefit of exercise; quality time spent working in hillwork and schooling to build up her fitness will develop her muscles as no diet alone will - even short sessions of 30 minutes or so, several times a week.
make sure that you feed either the recommended levels of hard feed as claimed by the manufactorer (check the bags) or add a feed balancer/vitamin and mineral supplement to balance the ration adn provide her with all the nutrients she needs to maintain optinum health without so much of the energy/protein as her condition levels out.
so be careful not to make her deficient in vitamins and minerals when you change her feeding regime; ask a nutritionist if ever you are unsure - it's free!

alfalfa is high in protein, calcium, high in fibre and dense yet slow-release energy, so as not to exaggerate your horse's natural temprement and to help provide 'sparkle' without fizz. the Dengie products are really fabulous!

if you use haylage then you will need to feed 1.5 times more than you would hay, top make up for its high water content.

good luck with your new horse!
:-)

[Giveitago]

oooh- Ran out of Alfa oil this week and had to feed Alfa A (yellow bag) instead for a few days-

Bad idea, bad bad idea!

back to some really boring chaff until we replenish the Alfa Oil supplies.

[puzzles]

:-)
hope it goes well for you; how much are you feeding? (i.e. by weight/scoop)

the big question is not WHAT you feed but HOW MUCH you feed of it.