We've gone barefoot

[martini55]

The farrier was out today for the usual trim. If anyone saw my other thread about her being footsore- she didn't react to hoof testers and doesn't appear to have any bruising and is fine :) I decided to ask if he thought she would cope barefoot and he said there's no harm in trying, so the shoes have came off. We will just have to see how she copes.

So all you hoof anoraks out there, I would appreciate information on hoof boots, ways to keep out infection (esp. important as she is missing some hoof wall in the front her feet) and any other useful resources and advice are welcomed :)

I took some pics of her feet but she wasn't being particularly co-operative:rolleyes:

Left-fore
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/martini500/Horses/feet22ndfeb07/Photo-0059.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/martini500/Horses/feet22ndfeb07/Photo-0058.jpg


Right-fore
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/martini500/Horses/feet22ndfeb07/Photo-0055.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/martini500/Horses/feet22ndfeb07/Photo-0060.jpg


It's amazing to compare her front and back feet, they honestly look like they should belong to different horses. Hopefully we'll also get rid of those deep clefts!

[Shadowlark]

www.hoofrehab.com

My fave resource - that is Peter Ramey's site You fill find LOADS of info there, including on hoof boots etc.

All the best, and welcome to the club ;)

[MelanieD]

Old Mac G2 are good or original Old Macs if her feet aren't the right shape for G2s. Putting pads inside boots can help a lot if she isn't totally comfortable just in boots.

Hibiscrub milton or borax are good for infection, scrubbing if it's just a bit of surface ick or soaking if there are any deep crevices. Stuffing MSM cream into any crevices can help as well. Can't make out much detail from the pics but having had shoes on and laminitis there's highly likely to be at least a bit of ming in the hoof wall that needs killing with borax etc, though it should grow out pretty well now the shoes are gone.

Since she's had laminitis in the past supplementing magnesium is a good thing, don't know if you're doing that already anyway.

Don't panic if they break off at the nail holes and look a total mess for a while, it can look scary but usually isn't anywhere near as bad as it looks.

Did your farrier do much trimming or just take the shoes off and give her time to get used to being without them first? There does look like a bit more could be done that'd help so if that's his best attempt at a trim it might be worth getting an EP or other barefooter to have a look at them.

How is she coping without the shoes so far? Good luck :)

[martini55]

I had got in contact with an EP a few months back so I'll be giving her another email and see if maybe she would be able to come out and assess her feet. I don't know if I want to take the plunge to convert from my farrier to an EP. Not because I doubt their experience but the closest one to me is a good 60miles away (at least) so I don't know if I'd be happy having someone who couldn't necessarily make it out if there was any sort of emergency as my main trimmer. Of course there is no harm in getting her opinion :)

Could you elaborate on what more could be done? I am curious as feet are not a strong point of mine so I would love to learn more so I can be a better judge. He didn't do much trimming today, I mainly had him out early as I was worried about her being footsore.

She seems to be coping well so far. She had problems walking on the tarmac- I'd imagine she'll be rather pottery on stoney ground to begin with. Didn't get to see her walking on any rougher ground as I kept her in this afternoon as a lot of the other horses had been brought in and she isn't keen on being out alone.

I'll try and get better pics with an actual camera another day (and hopefully she won't move around as much!).

[Pink's lady]

The fairrer doens't appeared to have rolled the toes at all - the edges are sharp and flat. They therefore crack and chip as well as produce outwards pressure causing flare.

This is a picture of a just rolled toe
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Brodie/Brodierightfrontsideview.jpg

and after a week
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Brodie/Brodierighthindsideveiew.jpg

Notice how rounded the edges are.

he's also left on a lot of flare - that wide ragged white line

It should look like this - notice the tight, narrow white line. The right hand top quarter has a slight flare still growing out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Brodie/Brodierighthindfoot.jpg

This is what a just trimmed foot with a fair bit of previous flare looks like - notice the wide, stretched white line
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Brodie/Brodieleftfrontsole.jpg

She feet are also upright and boxy and the heel looks really long. That isn't going to encourage spreading and growth of the frogs.

I would try and get ahold of a EP OR go off and educate yourself about foot trimming as much as humaly possible and do it yourself. That's what i did - the nearest EP was a 100mile away and therefore very expensive so I started myself. If he had kept his shoes off I would had got her out to check I was doing it OK.

[Shadowlark]

Just to add to pink, I do mine myself as well as a few of my boarded horses. It's not as scarry as it first seems and it's liberating to be able to fix/adjust as I need to.

Maybe get the EP out to help you get started? My farrier was excellent, taught me what to do and how to do it and stays in contact to see if I need anything or to swap photos etc.

[Alibi]

I don't know if I'd be happy having someone who couldn't necessarily make it out if there was any sort of emergency as my main trimmer

EP's are usually quicker to come out than most farriers in my experience!

Once the infection is under control and the frogs exfoliate (don't be alarmed if chucks of frog come off in the next couple of weeks, as when the foot is shod then get very little, if any stimulation to cause exfoliation) you might find that the clefts won't be as deep.

Definitely old mac / G2's for boots, Boa boots tend to rub the coronet, especially if you use pads inside them.

But most of all good luck!

[Joyscarer]

I hope things go well for you. I have to admit that I am contemplating the same thing at the moment. Not quite ready to make the move yet though :)

[martini55]

Thanks for the replies and for the photo's pink's lady. I will certainly be getting in contact with the EP I was recommended. She was going to come out and see us to assess her feet last year but the day she was coming across this way I had to be in uni and couldn't get to the yard. Unfortunately I don't think I will be able to have her come out on a regular basis since she's such a distance away. At the least, she may be able to give me some good advice even if she cannot make it out to see us.

[About the toes, they basically look like this (only a heck of a lot better now!):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/martini500/SP_A0530.jpg


I'll try and get some better photos for you all to analyse tomorrow if possible. And I'll take some of her back feet. They look completely different to the fronts, which as you say are short and boxy and basically horrid! That's the whole reason I decided to give barefoot a try. There are no nasty deep crevices/clefts beside the frog, a nice tight white line and a much better shape in the back. I will certainly be reading up as much as possible and when her feet are looking a lot better I def. want to be able to trim myself, although the thought terrifies me at the moment! But I suppose the more I learn, the more confidence I will gain.

[Alibi]

When did she have laminitis? or when was her last bad attack?

[martini55]

August 2004

[PaintedQH]

I'm no farrier but to me the hooves look pretty good, in that last set of group photo's. They look a lot healthier to me. In the first set of photo's your horse seems to be standing fairly straight, and has a lot of heel. And that last photo, I have to wonder how the shoe was staying on. Much nicer looking hooves now. :) Next time your trimmer comes out get her to show you how to roll the toe.

[daveb]

You can easily start trimming with just a rasp and hoof knife. Start by using the hoof knife to trim dead areas of the frog. Do this regularly between farrier visits to help keep down any infection in the frog.

You can also lightly rasp the hoof if it starts to get long or uneven. Just take a little bit off of the hoof at any one time.

As you get more comfortable using these tools, you'll find it easier to take on the job of trimming yourself.

[MelanieD]

It's hard to tell from photos, so could be taking rubbish, but heels might be a tiny bit high. Could do with a bit more roll in the quarters and there's a bit of shaping that could be done to make a better line from the coronet band to the floor, toe could be done a better way than taking a lot off really low down and nothing higher up. Nothing terrible but if you can get the foot in the right shape so the pressures on the foot are correct for encouraging good growth then it does help. They look a lot better now than in the older pics anyway :)

[martini55]

I will be asking many questions next time my farrier is out! I wonder whether he is taking it slowly with her feet to give her time to adjust, rather than just in one go shape her feet to the way he perhaps wants them to be. I will take pics of her backs and you can give me your opinions on them as well.

I know her feet do look a bit horrid but I wish I had pictures of them from before to show you all the comparison. I am hoping that in a few months time I'll look back and be shocked at how awful her feet were!

MelanieD, forgot to ask about the magnesium before. She currently gets fed formula4feet, would I need to supplement with magnesium in addition to this?

[MelanieD]

I do feed extra magnesium with Formula 4 Feet, I've not been able to find out how much Mg there is in it (their website just says there's Mg in it not how much) so I've just been feeding 2 teaspoons a day as well as the F4F. That's not the maximum amount I could feed and as long as there aren't any kidney problems any excess should be excreted and not cause problems.

They aren't pretty feet right now but I've seen far more horrid ones turned into nice feet :)

[Yann]

I know she's a lot bigger but they look very similar to tiny loan pony's feet when we first took her shoes off (saw these pics on EE, can't see them here at work at the moment though). If she's relatively comfortable, then I honestly think you'll find this a good move. The main problem we always had with Gem was that her heels got way too long by the end of the shoeing cycle, tipping her onto her toes. With the shoes off the heels have an opportunity to wear so this becomes less of a problem.

Generally in a laminitic the heels are too long anyway and ideally want taking down quite aggressively which will also helps get the pedal bone back into a better alignment and usually improve the horse's comfort. The usual trimming landmarks don't apply so the skill and experience of the trimmer or farrier come to the fore. I would also forget about trying to get the hoof wall to do anything at the toe until strongly attached hoof wall has reached ground level or you'll just perpetuate the strain and tearing of the laminae, the farrier is entirely correct in taking it out of ground contact and trimming back through the dead laminar wedge. I've read of two cases on EE where apparently relatively recently qualified EP's weren't doing this, just something to bear in mind. www.hoofrehab.com is well worth a look for info on the barefoot approach to laminitics.

You'll certainly be better off riding in boots and pads, they maintain proper foot function and protect from sharp stones. I'd look at G2's even with relatively wide feet, they've worked very well for us. At the end of the day though the critical thing is to get the diet right so there are no further attacks large or small and strongly attached foot can grow down from the coronet band to the floor, taking the shoes off should speed this up considerably.

I don't know if it helps at all but if the EP is too far away there might be an AANHCP trimmer who covers your area, there are one or two possibles listed at http://www.aanhcp.net/page90.html

Good luck :)

[KarinUS]

It's hard to tell from photos, so could be taking rubbish, but heels might be a tiny bit high. :)

That's what I thought.
I hope it works out for you! Barefoot has done more for us than any specialized shoeing EVER did.
We have used Boa Boots with the Gaiters with great success.

[martini55]

Thanks for your input and advice everyone. Today was the first time seeing her walk on all sorts of different ground. She came jogging out of her field on the soft, muddy ground and you wouldn't think anything different of her. Then walking through the car park, where the ground is a bit stony in places, she took her time and chose her way through being a bit pottery at the rougher parts. Then into the barn and across tarmac she was back to walking almost normally again. I suppose in a way it is good as she would sometimes be coming jogging through the car park if she is last to come in. It's reminded her she has to be more careful.

Overall I am pleased. You get it in your head that as soon as the shoes come off they are going to be very pottery or even lame, and it was a concern for me since her feet are the way they are. It was nothing like that and if anything I think, although you could tell at times she was obviously feeling her feet, she was just being sensible.

I scrubbed her feet out with hibiscrub tonight and just left it on, rather than rinsing it off. I'll get my hands on one of the disinfectants I've seen as being recommended on barefoot forums.

I couldn't get any decent pictures tonight as the lighting was too dark and I couldn't find my proper camera. But I managed to take a pic of the sole of her left-hind, just to show you the difference:

Left-fore
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/martini500/Horses/feet22ndfeb07/Photo-0058.jpg

Left-hind
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/martini500/Horses/feet22ndfeb07/Photo-0064.jpg

I think they look like they should belong to two different horses.

[MelanieD]

As long as you dilute the hibiscrub it's fine to leave it on, works pretty well for a lot of horses too, I'm more likely to use that for foot ming than borax etc.

Agree with Yann mostly. The heels do need taking down but can be too agressive with it, need to check tendons are okay before doing that and the sole limits how far down they can go as well, that's something that farrier/trimmer that's actually seeing the horse has to assess. I still think the toe could be done slightly better but the important thing is that pressure has been taken off it, and since I'm looking at photos not the actual feet it's entirely possibly I'm wrong.

AANCHP trimmers are generally good. Go with reputation and whether you think they talk sense and do a good job over any what they call themselves. As long as she does improve you might be fine with your farrier, backs seem to be doing well with him anyway, just worth bearing in mind there are other approaches if they don't improve quickly. Diet and getting the right excercise is almost more important than tiny details of the trim anyway as long as the big things like balance, heel height and taking pressure off the toe are taken care of :)

Boots and pads are a very good thing, sole mate pads are ace but there are loads of other pads you can use that are cheaper and still help. You might even find she's more comfortable with boots and pads than in shoes..

[Yann]

It sounds like you're off to a good start if she's sound on level ground :) Hibisrcub is as good as anything for keeping lurgy at bay, that's what I use and the fact it foams up means it's more likely to get into all the nooks and crannies.

Front and back feet are definitely not matching! The hind foot looks pretty good. I'm only an interested amateur but the heels look a mile high in both the side on and solar shots, presumably giving rise to the extra deep collateral grooves. I'm guessing the pedal bone, which is already at a steeper angle is being left in an even worse position as a result. That in itself can cause discomfort and might be contributing to the slow recovery, sometimes dropping the heels in one fell swoop can actually make the horse more comfortable, but it's a judgement call for a skilled professional only :) If you can get the heels at the right height then the back of the foot can start to function properly and the whole thing becomes a virtuous circle, you should eventually end up with fronts and backs that match :)

[martini55]

This morning she was a bit more 'ouchy' and a bit reluctant to walk out to the field. I don't know whether it's just because she knows it's incomfortable or whether she is actually footsore. I will be sending an email to Bonny Mealand today and see if she will come and assess her feet. I figure even if she cannot commit to trimming regularly then at least she can give us good management advice etc.

[ponynutts]

I'm new here and have been reading through this thread with great interest.I took the shoes off my horse 4 weeks ago as due to family illness I wasn't able to spend any time working him so thought whilst he's having a bit of a holiday I would see how he went and maybe in the future he would stay barefoot.He's had no problems at all so far even though he has been lead on some very stoney ground to and from the field so hopefully he'll be able to cope in the future.I must admit I've tried learning about horses feet and it just doesn't go in so although I've talked to my farrier when he's been out I've left it to his experience.I have now changed yards and am looking for a new farrier.How do I find out if they are experienced in barefoot is there a site anyone knows of that may list one in my area or will all farriers be trained in this sort of thing.I'm sorry to sound thick but I have always gone down the traditional route of shoes but my horse is an ex racer and I'm trying to give him the most natural life that I can now and am going to invest in a bitless bridle as well he's only 3 so I thought if I can start now how I wish to go on it will benefit him for the rest of his life.

[Yann]

Is the track to the field stony? Tess struggled with our stony track to begin with so I booted her to and from, but I was lucky to have a pair of Rio's boots that were oversized and easy to get on and off. So long as she's comfortable in the field and on the yard I'd not worry too much so long as she's not out and out hobbling, let her take her time and get used to being able to feel the ground again. Is there much grass in the field? Spring is springing already down here, I'd certainly keep an eye on that, low grade lami is widely acknowleged as an issue by barefooters of all persuasions as a cause of footiness and something to be avoided by controlling the diet.

Ponynutts, there may well be someone who could travel to you on the list at http://www.uknhcp.org/locateapractioner.html As far as I know Ross and Mel Barker have clients in North Yorkshire

[martini55]

There are some big stones leading out from the barn and then the carpark is stony in patches. She came out of her stable fine and stopped before the stones looking not too happy! With a bit of encouragement she found her way through and seemed to go away okay in the field.

I'm being very paranoid about laminitis just now, seeing as it could be all to easy to put down any footyness to removing her shoes. We have small individual turn out rather than large fields at our yard. This winter, mine was split in half by electric fencing and Martini was in one side and two other horses in the other. About a week ago I moved Martini into the opposite side and the other two horses moved into the adjacent field. Martini tends to pace at 'coming in' time, so has basically turned the other side to mud. Now it's coming into Spring, I'll be moving the fence (plan to tomorrow) so she only has 1/3 of the field (there's no grass yet). This seemed to work during the summer so fingers crossed she'll be okay this year.

[martini55]

This morning she was a lot better than yesterday, though to me she looks a bit unlevel on the softer ground. I don't know if it would be anything to worry about though? I took a video of her walking out to the field this morning, I'm going a bit daft with vids/photos :o Martini asks that you don't giggle too much at her outfit :p

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/martini500/Horses/feet22ndfeb07/th_Video-0003.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v475/martini500/Horses/feet22ndfeb07/?action=view&current=Video-0003.flv)

Oh and the thumping isn't coming from her, just me in my muck boots :o

[Yann]

I'm a past master at looking neurotically for signs of footsoreness :D I'd say she's protecting the off fore a little (may be completely wrong of course!) but her stride length is pretty good and I'd say it was minor. To be honest if you're just a few days into being shoeless I'd not worry too much. Tess went lame on one foot a couple of days after she had her shoes off, just as I went away for a week, but was fine by the time I got back. Unless she's hobbling and clearly uncomfortable I wouldn't worry too much, all things being equal it won't last :)

[martini55]

Thanks Yann, I'm not too concerned as of yet and will just have to see how she improves in the following days/weeks.

MelanieD, if you are interested I found out the amount of Magnesium present in Formula4Feet. There is 6,300mg per kg. I don't know what the recommended daily amount is? I'll have a look and see how much she gets per day(can't remember off the top of my head) to work out the daily amounts..