Pat Parelli "scandal"

[Ikon]

Take a look at Pat Parelli has done... :eek: seems rather petty!:mad:

http://www.cyberhorse.com.au/dcforum/equestrian/13740.html#1

[KarlR]

Obviously it's difficult to know how true the comments are.

However, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility. I have thought for some time that Parelli must be making substantial profits. It seems to be less an ethos and more a business proposition: we will tell you how to achieve results if you buy our equipment, videos, books, etc.

[FRED]

I have often wondered about the 'business' side of the Parelli organisation and others.I think its only natural and fare that sometimes we wonder what is their 1st priority.
I was left in no doubt what exellent salesmen they are.Their displays can have you 'spell bind' and I was impressed at what their horse can do, especially considering their back ground,but please forgive I don't wish to offend,I could not help but be reminded of Circus.

Any one in business knows and usualy accepts, things can get very rough at times, they are usualy kept 'in house'.
Oddly its often the storm in a tea cup that gets Highlighted Publicity.

[Cathy Reynolds]

An interesting distillation of why I have always felt just everso slightly uncomfortable about some aspects of the business.

[ros]

Yes - I feel the same. Slightly uncomfortable. Well, actually, in some cases quite uncomfortable.

Not with Mike Peace, though. I do think HE has more integrity than this.

[CrazyfurAnimals]

I have No clue whats going on!!! :confused: What did he do?

[Ame]

Just a quick note :)

Ken, Kathy and Judy left the PNH organisation because they didn't see eye to eye with the new Australian Distributor.

The new Parelli Aussie Distributor/Co-ordinator is a Brit - he seems more interested in money than horsemanship. He and partner also own PNH UK... in the past he has managed to upset quite a few students in England... now he's going on to do it in OZ as well!

Pat Parelli didn't really have much to do with Ken leaving. It was the Brit that tipped the boat.

The Aussie distributorship was sold because Viv and Barry (who had it previously for over 10yrs) have decided to move on and do something else.

I gather there were no other interested buyers and PNH USA would have had a hard time running PNH USA and Australasia.

So that's life folks.

Their techniques work (No circus tricks involved. Just bloody hard work). Their program is the first of its kind in the world. Why not sell it? They have to earn a living somehow.

[FRED]

Hi Ame, recentley I have watched both circus horse combined with stunt show and a Parelli display.
I don't mind to admit that what the circus horses were doing and how they responded to their trainer was impressive.

When I saw the Parelli trainer inside the round pen with her horse,it was surprising how familiar the circus and Parelli show were,all be that circus horse were working in a much greater area than the round pen{i think thats what they call the small fenced area}

I guess either way the horse trainers had worked hard.
Maybe the Circus horse trainer even uses Parelli methods,or maybe what they have learnt from generations of their family.

Fred.

[Ikon]

FRED, I doubt it was Parelli N/H! Actually (heres me being hypocritical) Parelli didn't invent it he only put a name on it!
It is infact common sense that has been passed from other generations or if you like good level headed oldies.
Parelli is just making money out of it.

[maz]

I live in Swindon and wanted to know if there were any Parelli instructors nearby.......I have the starter lit and am having a few walls being hit. Before throwing down my carrot stick and storming off the yard is there anyone out there that can come to Swindon...???
I don't care if they aren't 'parelli' recognised as long as they have the 'concept' of NH and can help a newbie.
I've been training horses for 25 years but this method is all new to me

[FRED]

Names like Hunt and the Dorrance family:) spring to mind.


Anglo/American translations have me guessing sometimes though.

Fred.

[Kerry's Partner!!]

I'm sorry folks but I haven't looked at the original "signpost" of the thread starter. I can confirm, however, (because I have sought the help of Mike Peace in the past) that what I (and most importantly my horse) received was expert guidance and absolutely no commercial "extras". In fact "commerce" would have been absolutely no help to us at all, real help and an absence of "commerce" is what we specifically sought and got. After all, my horse doesn't earn a salary, but she was a tad fed up and confused when I bought her so what she needed was someone experienced and considerate to help her through - and that's what she and I got. Gimmicks wear out. What we learned we can apply forever and it doesn't hurt anyone.

[Ikon]

Originally posted by KarlR
Obviously it's difficult to know how true the comments are.



Obviously it is difficult to know how true the comments/article is.
The reason I posted was that I was so surprised at what has happened. To me N/H Parelli style is not at all commercial compared to some "other" styles I won't mention (I'm not trying run anybody down) what Kerry's Partner said is quite true. The reason I turned to Natural Horse.Man.Ship was because I was shocked at the amount od draw reins, side rein etc. I saw used on horses (people jumping in side reins:eek: ) I have noticed a remarkable improvement in my partnership with my 'grouchy' old mare. Had a great time with her today. Rode in the halter like it was a double bridle (With a big harvester and 4 trucks rattling and chugging past in the next paddock) and recieved the most incredible impulsion and power from her (she is usually quite sluggish under saddle) Her trot was just so powerful yet contained all with a very light contact in her favourite halter! (It is the only halter that you can put on from the ground. She actually pokes her nose into it!!! Usually she rears when you put anything near her head. I have only been doing level one work with her for the last 2 months. I wa just so impressed with her.:D

So I am not in anyway trying to slag off Pat Pareilli or any other horsemen out there with their N/H methods.

[KarlR]

Parelli wouldn't be in business if his methods didn't work and I believe that everyone is entitled to make money from their work. Parelli is a bit more business oriented than I would like to see, and his methods aren't quite my "cup of tea", but it's a free country (world? ;))

I do believe that Michael Peace is a breath of fresh air, generously offering his time and efforts to promote real understanding. He charges, but the money is up front and transparent and probably only just covers his running costs. His methods will not appeal to everyone, but they do to me.

Both "Parelli" and "Peace" are, however, a world in front of the "draw reins and spurs" brigade though.

I find the business side of Parelli worrying because when money is involved in paying for "needed equipment" then very often a dilemma occurs as to whether a system is made more accessible or whether profits are increased - the latter usually wins! Nevertheless, I'd hate to see Parelli disappear simply because it doesn't suit me.

[FRED]

There is an exellent thread on the IH web site about Michael Peace.
You may smile in particular at one coment;)

To be honest the Parrelli display horses looked Robbotic in my eyes.But they now have a future that is brighter than normal ,given their back ground from the World of Racing.

I'm not keen on the hard sell techniques regarding any animal training, to hard sell you have to wear blinkers, dish out flack,fight fire with fire, etc.
I think the animal kingdom suffers enough from that,and should not be used to promote business,especialy the care business.


The Parrelli Team say that they do not use pressure Halters.
They have saved two race horses from the normal outlet, given them a future,its really a matter of opinion in our eyes. I wonder what the horses would say could they speak.
Fred.

[KarlR]

Originally posted by FRED
There is an exellent thread on the IH web site about Michael Peace.

Where's this Fred?

[Dizzy]

I saw the Parelli display at Equus, I was imediately put on my back foot by the 'hard sell' technique used.

The display started with a guy who spent 5 minutes explaining the Parelli method - but it to me was too much in your face, and could have been done much better.

2 horses and thier handlers were then introduced into the ring, the music was absolutely deafening - obviously to push the fact that the horses trusted thier handlers and weren't worried by the racket! Which they weren't. The beginning of the inhand display looked very hurried and scrappy. But I was very impressed when the girl took her horse into a makeshift round pen and worked her horse, she free lunged, the horse was focussed completely on her, he moved through the paces, halted, backed, changed the rien, reading her body language, responded imediately, was happy, willing and at ease. Both horses were ridden bitless, one in a head collar and with a string around its chest, both were completely in tune with the rider, and it was a pleasure to watch - I must add neither horse looked bored or glazed.

The best part for me, was the disabled girl in her motorised wheel chair with her Friesan horse, this horse just exudes personality and spirit, though some of the things they did could be described as circus tricks, the rapport they have is nothing short of fantastic. She could place him and he wouldn't move, lunge him through the paces, back him up, change the rien, he bowed to the audience, picked things up and took them to her, literally cantered upto a horse box and loaded himself, she unloaded him by pulling his tail and at the end of the display he laid down beside her. Anyone who owns a horse knows this type of relationship only comes from trust, respect and understanding.

While watching the display I could relate quite alot to TTeam inhand methods.

Parelli is obviously a fantastic NH technique, I am disappointed that it takes such a financially (sp) driven and hard sell approach. After watching Richard Davison, and John and Char Lassiter performing thier dressage, being only too happy to share their knowledge and obvious compassion and understanding of the horse, did make Parelli look as if it belonged in a circus, which to me is a big shame.

I think they should rethink thier displays BIGTIME, tone down the hard sell, get rid of the music and explain thier techniques in detail. And lastly drop thier prices, the starter pack is £95 - from what I could see its 1 video, 2 cassettes and a few booklets!!!

[Ikon]

****************************************************
I think they should rethink thier displays BIGTIME, tone down the hard sell, get rid of the music and explain thier techniques in detail. And lastly drop thier prices, the starter pack is £95 - from what I could see its 1 video, 2 cassettes and a few booklets!!!
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I agree totally!!! That is why I have started making my own. I can make the halters and am now working on the ropes, process string etc. It is just far too expensive!

[FRED]

For any one intrested,the thread about M Peace is now posted on the NR message board in the General section.
Spooky!

[Ikon]

I agree totally!!! That is why I have started making my own. I can make the halters and am now working on the ropes, process string etc. It is just far too expensive!
****************************************************

Yay!!! I have found somebody with the same interest as me (in N/H) and they have made all their gear. Done a great job as well!!! And they can teach me how to do it!!!!! They even made their carrot stick and it looks exactly like professional ones! except, green.

[Heather]

HI ikon,

I can't get the URL to work that you have posted- has it now been closed for soome reason?

Heather

[cvb]

I had the same problem with the url - the server only seems to have articles starting 14*** and some odd ones with lower numbers.

Also where is the M Peace thread ? I could not find that in the General section either...

[FRED]

Hello cvb,if you look at the date that I posted about M Peace,the thread by Tim will be in the general section of the message board at that same date.
I 1st read this exellent write up on the IH web site,but their message board is now closed ? {Kelly Marks web site}
The disscusion was interesting .The general consensus there was, that M Peace is human:) and exellent with horses:),{the thread was a good read and very open}
I would love to see him at work,one day.[without chaos and bedlham of some horse trainers I have seen}

[Heather]

Fred,

Am I being thick? I went to the post by Tim and he mentions something called Saddle up and to go to the message board. Any idea what the URL for Saddleup is, it isn't part of NR anywhere is it?

Heather

[FRED]

I'm sorry Heather,I don't know where the Saddle up web site is.
Maybe if you PM Tim he can help.
Best wishes from Fred.

[Julew]

I saw Parelli perform last year, and at risk of being sent howling from NR I have to say that whilst the principles may be sound and useful ( but by no means reserved for Parelli, there are others espousing the same!) Overall I couldn't stomach the evangelical product (ie technique as well as items) selling. Not all people who are not using PNH are dumb and without horse sense! He says many valuable things but I think many others do too and I have found that the heavy sell detracts from the message. I do not want to be bullied albeit pleasantly into particular ways, I like to pick bits from everywhere depending on how it works with my horse. Fred you are right when you say circus.

[Ikon]

That is exactly what I can't stomach about Monty, infact I find Parelli much less "invasive" i.e telling you to buy everything from portable round pens to dually halters and cruel "buckstops".
In fact Parelli uses mostly commonsense things for god sakes he endorses a plastic grocery bag.
***************************************
Any way it is proven that the method that Monty is selling and claiming to have invented is a load of s***. If anybody had bothered to find a book written in 1957 by Monty's father then they would be set straight. It is infact his father that invented the method. As for the 'silent' language of horses nothing could be further from the truth. Horses are naturally noisy animals. Sure they use body language but even that is not silent.

[Kathy C]

http://www.saddle-up.org.uk (nice to know my pages of bookmarks that I never use can come in useful once in a while!)


Kathy C

[Thinkerbell]

Any way it is proven that the method that Monty is selling and claiming to have invented is a load of s***. If anybody had bothered to find a book written in 1957 by Monty's father then they would be set straight. It is infact his father that invented the method. As for the 'silent' language of horses nothing could be further from the truth. Horses are naturally noisy animals. Sure they use body language but even that is not silent.

Ikon, I beg to differ. Compared to humans, horses are rather silent animals. Go to any reasonably-sized stable, and you'll see horse/handler combinations that struggle to understand eachother because the handler uses vocal commands that the horse has never learned to understand. Like a few days ago, when a girl in my friends stable kept shouting to her (extremely bored) youngster to make the horse stop making annoying noises (banging the wall and playing with her lips along the steel bars). After a while, when the horse clearly didn't understand why she was shouted at, the owner explolded and roared somethong along the lines of "shut up you bl**dy moron, it's f***in' annoying to listen to you, don't you get that???" (This was slightly off topic, but I had to mention it, I am so annoyed!!!)

A lot of the horses who seemingly respond to vocal commands actually respond to the (unconscious) body language of the person who gives the command.

As for the book you mentioned, I would be very interested to know the full details about is, so as to try and find it :). Gan you post the Title/Author/Publisher/ISBN?

[cvb]

..their server seems to be having problems too :(

[Ikon]

Sorry but, the book no longer seems to be in print. I found it one day at an op-shop I was browsing but, failed to buy it.

RE: Your comment on how quiet horses are. Sure, they are vocally quiet creatures but, on the qhole they are actually quite loud i.e piles of c*** falling from 3 feet. Hoof beats have you ever actually listened to a herd of even 5 horses? Their hoove beats sound like muffled thunder etc.
So horses are noisy creatures just not nessecarily vocally.
**********************************************
It's a pity that horses aren't in some ways like pigs. A pig screams at the slightest bit of pain but, a horse bears his torture in silence.

[Thinkerbell]

So horses are noisy creatures just not nessecarily vocally.

Right Ikon, I can see where you're coming from :)

[virtuallyhorses]

I keep coming back to this topic hoping the IKON will put us out of our misery and tell everyone what the 'scandal' is, since none of the URLS posted seem to be current.

I'm almost getting lost with some of the back and forth about Parelli vs Roberts. IKON are you trying to say that horses communicate with their hooves? I think you're going into uncharted territory there ...

I've seen a number of NH proponents and I think one of the basic things that many of us don't like is their 'American-ness' - the whole loud, showman style + merchandising wrapper that has to go around any American presenter. Well, get over it, they aren't going to change you just have to pick out the bits that you like and not get caught up in the showbiz.

My one thing against PP is that in the clinics\demos of his that I've seen he states that if you don't buy his gear (IKON - yes he does use a shopping bag - and he sells it to you for a huge premium) and do all of his lessons in the order that he says, in the way that he says, that you won't succeed.

He also seemed to have 'groupies'. IKON are you succumbing? ;) you say that Monty's methods are PROVEN to not work - by whom? and since they're essentially the same as PP's, John Lyons and co - wouldn't that mean that they don't work either? BTW I haven't seen MR, only read his stuff and seen a short video. But at PP's clinic we were given breaks to 'go and buy merchandise and given frequent prompts about what gear and videos the demo was covering :rolleyes:

However, I don't see any value in 'slagging off' one over another, they're all basically selling\teaching the same thing and what's important is that we see that kernel of respect\trust\consistancy and pick up the things that help us work with our horses. Is it important what they call their style? no. Is it important to buy the gear - no.

but please do tell us what the 'scandal' is ...

[Aly]

Well said Virtually Horses.

[Lucy J]

my yard owner has succummbed to the marketing ploy and now thinks Parelli ia God's gift to her to train horses and has become a groupie. THis upsets me, as she clearly practices the methods without fully understanding. This is why I do not like Parelli. I do not like the way it is marketed. Every one goes own about the disabled lady. Yes I agree what she has achieved is great. By I don't like the way it is used to sell the method to the public. It is because of this I do not pay much attention to Parelli, the constant americanism campaining has totally put me off. It gets shoved down my throat every day now and I am too soft to say what I think.:(

[Crystal Fire]

I don't understand. This goes for any system you're being offered. If you don't like the cost, do something else cheaper. If you don't want to use their equipment - don't. It's all very well to say that Parelli should change the style of displays whatever, but lots of people enjoy the displays, the music, the presentation - in fact the whole deal. If you don't, then don't bother watching it.
At Equus the Parelli display was one of the most popular, and each day when it was finished the stand was surrounded by crowds of people who wanted to know more. They got the info, then decide what to do from there.
It's a very popular system, and there's a growing interest. I suppose they don't really need to change what they do at this stage as it works. If it's not for us, then we just go do something else, don't we?
I'm pleased Pease, Maxwell, Parelli etc etc are all out there - they are helping people to see that there are alternative ways to be with your horses.

[Crystal Fire]

Sorry - Lucy J - your yard owner has not succumbed to the marketing - she is doing her own thing. Nobody in Parelli would support her in either ramming PNH methods down your throat, or playing with your horses. Unless she has passed her level 3 and been endorsed by Pat as an instructor, she is not qualified to either help other people with their horses or teach the system.
Print this and show it to her if you like.

[cvb]

you know we always talk about marketing like its the big bad wolf. Getting something to market is what makes it available to us, and 'marketing' it is what gives us the information to make an informed decision.

Parelli, Max et al will do their best to wrap up their product in a nice package - after all that is the best way to deliver it. The 'style' of marketing will not suit everyone. And some people will get sold on the superficial message (this is good, try it ! This will solve your problems) without necessarily getting the deeper principles. (That it actually takes work, understanding, time, patience).

I'm sure if you looked in your cupboards you would all find something that you had bought purely based on the marketing...
(come on, does it really wash that white, make you look like the girl/boy in the adver, help you find your mate, make you more sophisticated/beautiful/trendy ?) So don't be too fast to judge.

I do think a little ignorance can be a dangerous thing - so people who leap headfirst into nh without really understanding can cause problems for themselves and others. Most of the teachers do say not to go too fast into it.

But at the same time, I would love to be on a yard where people led my horse sensibly, where all the horses were calm, respectful, and well mannered. And where I did not get weird looks everytime I bring out a rope halter, or hop on bareback. And I am not doing much nh at all. (Oh yes, and a round pen would be quite nice too - had one at my last yard - luxury). So if my yard mamanger suddenly decided to jump on the band wagon, I think I would support her and try some subtle influencing....

[dolly]

cvb,

Not sure how you can say Max wraps his product up and basically only sells a principle, when he is a one man band and only works with individuals on a one to one basis with their horses so that they do undertand the "deeper meaning". He doesn't train other people on a qualification basis, and only occassionally does any media work, ok he does demos but only because he was asked in the first place to raise awareness, he tries in his demos to come out with something else that he has learned whilst working with different horses. How would people know about any of these things if it weren't publicised and demonstrated.

All of the equipment he sells are the tools of his trade, to be honest i remember in the beginning he didn't sell anything, he would help people with their horses and go home, they would call him to ask where to get the equipment, a local saddler used to make it, but at double what he now charges. He does not sell anything that he doesn't use and if its something you can make at home then thats what he suggests. such as a wip wop!

The only other eqipment he uses are rope halters, long lines and 12ft lead ropes. He doesn't sell his books unless he can sell them with a good discount.

Because his methods have changed since the first videos came out he has stopped selling them until he is in a position to update them.

this is why i have a problem with people thinking that it is all marketing hype, if you don't like his methods, that is absolutely fine, i am certainly not saying that everyone has to approve, as long as it is an informed opinion.

apologies if i read your thread incorrectly.

[cvb]

Hi Dolly

I think you might have missed the point ?? I am not saying marketing is bad. And I was speaking somewhat generally, and not just about Max !!

I also did NOT say that marketing was just about selling a principle, or that Max was just selling a principle. What I said was that people can take the communication/information at many different levels - some superficial, some much deeper.

Max's style of communication seems to be a lot more face to face, and WYSIWYG - there are many different styles of marketing. Some are very hard sell, and some are not - his is not. There is also a cultural aspect in this - a lot of UK people feel a little uncomfortable with what we would call "american" style selling. (And before the americans get upset - this is not to tar with the same brush all american marketing/selling - just a certain style).

'hype' is not necessarily the same as marketing.

But as you say, he has to communicate somehow ! And as soon as he is communicating to the market - he is marketing himself and what he does. THIS IS NOT BAD !! In fact what you are saying is that he is very ethical and considers the effect, consequences etc very carefully. And is also limiting the channels he uses to make sure that the message is not corrupted. Good on him ! Wish there were more like it.

Just because marketing may be 'slick' does not make it bad. But sometimes the slickness can confuse the message.

Marketing does not force us to make decisions - we still have the free will to investigate, make an informed decision, and take responsibility for the consequences. Trouble is that a lot of people are quick to lay responsibility for their decisions at any other door than their own.

[Crystal Fire]

Yes, cvb - I'm on a yard where all of us practise Parelli to some extent, so our horses are handled sympathetically. Very lucky - took a long time to get there!
You're right about marketing, it's tailored to meet what people see as their "audience". Maybe if you don't like a particular approach you may be put off, but, hey that happens with ads on telly too!
Mr Parelli has said that he wants to reach as many people in the world as possible - his approach is likely to be a little different to someone like Max, but it's his choice at the end of the day. He sells tools because then he knows what everyone is using. (I've had to advise people to stop trying to do PNH with B Nice halters in the past...), he sells "the knowledge" - ie the Savvy Packs to make sure that everyone, even if they can't get to an instructor, is getting the same message. He is very strict on licensing instructors - and sometimes this ****es them off and they leave - because he wants to be sure if they use his name they teach the way he wants them to. Obviously he makes profit - it's become a business for him. I wish I was at the head of a business like that. It's up to him, isn't it?

[cvb]

aha - finally decided to track down that missing link. The item had been archived. With any luck, below link may work

http://www.cyberhorse.com.au/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=13740&forum=equestrian&archive=yes

If not, then the next link will take you to the search form. Remember to click the 'search archives' bit !

http://www.cyberhorse.com.au/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=search_form&s_forum=equestrian

Having finally found it, there was less information in there than I had hoped :(

There is another thread predating the one above, but covering similar ground, for anyone who is interested...

http://www.cyberhorse.com.au/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=13740&forum=equestrian&archive=yes

[dolly]

cvb

Thanks for the reply, i think at the moment everyone is on the defensive, i know i am where a few of the NH people are concerned, there has been so much on many of the sites recently about the whole mechanics of the "American marketing ploy" and how it detracts from the horsemanship aspect that i think they feel stuck between a rock and a hard place at times.

kind regards

Dolly

[Crystal Fire]

Looked at the links - thanks for making them work! Yes, as some people suspect on the thread - there is more to this story than meets the eye. Internet is full of information and dis-information. Just try a search on Monty Roberts...!
People part company with large organisations all the time. Normally they can come up with gripes about it, and reasons why morally they had to make the move (I took redundancy from local govt a couple of years back, and did just that). You'll never know the full facts about this story, I know some of them but I'm sure it's not the full picture.
I'm sure that the instructors who have left the programme (this was something that happened over a period of time, and they had been choosing not to fall in with PNH requests for some time) will go on to make a good living spreading their version of natural horsemanship. Hopefully recognising the system that enabled them to get this far, even if they are no longer part of it.
In this country we have a similar case with Ross Simpson, not doing Positive Horse Magic. It's all part of life's rich tapestry - I still think we decide what we want to do with our horses based on the teaching - not politics in the organsation.

[Lucy J]

The point I have been making is the people at my yard do not know what they are doing and one horse is now being sold, and a few others aren't really getting anywhere. I just don't agree with it. I know many people think its great, and if it suits people then fine, I am happy with that, I just don't like feeling forced into that particular method when I don't like it. I do however pay alot of attention to Maxwell/Kelly Marks and other forms of NH. I was reading an interesting thread on aanother site saying that Parelli horses are trained differently to 'normal' horses and the aids are very different, causing problems if the horse is being sold on as he can't be ridden 'traditionally' like turn the head to the left to stop? Does anyone else have experience of this?

[Crystal Fire]

That IH discussion has moved on a bit since you read it. It is a different style of training, and if someone moves a horse on before it is ready the new owner will maybe have to decide whether or not to re-train the horse a little, or look into Parelli a bit more. I'm only talking about newly-started horses here. If the horse is more experienced you shouldn't have any problems riding it conventionally - I have the horses to prove it.
If anyone was trying to force me into doing something I didn't want to with my horse I'd move. It must be infuriating for you! Having said that, the attitude of a few stupid people who think they have become Parelli gods isn't really a lot to do with the system, more to do with them. What a pain!

[Lucy J]

I would move, everyone else except one person and me has! which is why I say, means I can now have grass only livery in the summer and keep my stable, gives me free use of the school as the other girl doesn't use it much. and there is lots of grazing.

they won't be having any more liveries, as we had some problems with the last few. They have lots of young little ponies hat need breaking, I'm not quite sure what the owners plans are, (ie kiddies small animal theme/riding school) but the grass is good, school is nice, stables are big and its pretty cheap. There also on site round the clock and as my horse escaped at 3am the other day (to the geldings field) this is good.I'd rather have 24hr turnout a school and a happy horse close to my house - I have weighed up the pros and cons of all the yards in the area. and i don't particularly want to move my horse. there is lots going on where my horse is cockatiels, rabbits, dogs, cats, chickens, flags etc and it is good to get my youngster used to all these strange sights and smells!

[Crystal Fire]

Yep, it's a tough one. Good grazing and lots of turnout is so hard to come by. I know how you feel - my mare is claustrophobic - her stable door is fixed open and she has a pen outside. Strict instructions not to shut her in. You can imagine my reaction when I came back one night because I'd left my phone... and saw one of my "friends" shoot across the yard to take down a chain she'd put over to keep her in...!