Waterford gag? Cruel?

[Spiggly]

I was reading another forum and someone had a mare that would lift her head and bomb off in the school but was fine out hacking.

She was asking if a kineton noseband would help, and that her mare was currently ridden in a waterford dutch gag on the second ring and a flash noseband:eek: .

Now i thought the waterford snaffle was a harsh bit, but to combine it with a gag and flash sounds almost inhumane? Is this combination excessively harsh or have i totally got the wrong end of the stick?

[Skye08]

It totally depends on how you use it and how you use it. Some peoples horses dont mind the action of the waterford which is only harsh when the horse leans on the bit. However some people just use it the wrong way, like whack it in when they need breaks. The links arnt actually harsh only when sum1 with heavy hands gets a hold of it.

[coss]

a waterford snaffle can be very effective on a big poweful horse as it gives them nothing to lean on and something to play with in they're mouth. wouldn't like to see it combined with a gag though - just seems weird and using a flash with a gag seems weird to me (maybe that because i ride in a snaffle with cavesson noseband)

[griffytayherb]

the waterford is a bit for pullers. my exracer is in one and is doing quite well. it is only harsh when the horse pulls, but rewarding and kind when they are not.

but combined in a gag and with a flash, any type of mouthpiece is harsh. its just so much control. its so limiting to a horse. pretty sad, i think.

[Styric]

I actually quite like waterfords, the horse can bend and hold it in his mouth wherever he likes. It can solve quite a few of those fussy with the bit.

[H & Bailey]

as others have said a waterford stops leaning , a gag is for horses that go with their heads too low and pull down so it lifts the head up..a flash stops the horse opening its mouth or grabbing the bit between its teeth..
if her horse is running and putting its head in the air it sounds like that it is trying to evade the bit the only way it can... she would be much better having a schooling session,starting with something like a snaffle and judge what exactly the horse is doing..ie is it really leaning or is it sticking its head up...lots of schooling will help but if she needs something to use straight away she could try a pelham with 2 reins using the snaffle rein only until she needs the curb to check back ,less is definately more.

[jovi_y2k2]

after having a lot of bit training i have a different view on bits and dont see any one bit as being particularly harsh per se, any bit is going to be like barbed wire to a horse if the rider has harsh/heavy/strong hand aids.
different mouthpieces have different effects, they work on differing parts of the mouth as do the different cheek styles.
a waterford mouthpiece in itself is relatively mild as it is multijointed, it does not have a straightforward nutcraker action, but instead wraps around the tongue, which as previously mentioned helps prevent the horse leaning on the bit and pulling.
the action of a gag as H&Bailey said helps to lift the horses head and set him back on his hocks, which is why gags are often used in showjumping.
but when it comes down to it a bit is only a tool used to help with training and shouldnt be seen as a solution to all problems, no bit however "harsh" is going to stop a horse that really does not want to stop, we are not going to win a tug of war game with something that weighs as much as a horse does! which is where schooling and working to gain the respect of your horse comes into it

[Jessey]

someone had a mare that would lift her head and bomb off in the school but was fine out hacking.

She was asking if a kineton noseband would help, and that her mare was currently ridden in a waterford dutch gag on the second ring and a flash noseband .
In my opintion a gag lifts the head by the very nature of its action - why would you put ne on a horse who sticks its head int he air to run off??? :eek:

The waterford is generally recognised as a fairly harsh bit meant for horses who lean and run through the bit - though used sympathetically it can be a useful tool.

I wouldn't want to combine a gag and waterford, let alone add a flash noseband into the equasion and definatly not on a horse who throws her head up and runs! That combination just suggests to me that the horse is not giving to the bit at all so they have gone stronger until the horse severely rejects the bit by opening her mouth and so they strapped that shut too! I would assume lots of schooling is needed, not more contraptions!

[coss]

I wouldn't want to combine a gag and waterford, let alone add a flash noseband into the equasion and definatly not on a horse who throws her head up and runs! That combination just suggests to me that the horse is not giving to the bit at all so they have gone stronger until the horse severely rejects the bit by opening her mouth and so they strapped that shut too! I would assume lots of schooling is needed, not more contraptions!


agree, and as someone else said, less is more!

[Nik-n-Kia]

I have seen a few horses ridden in a waterford like this

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p120/Nik-n-Kia/x-WSWATERFORDSNAFFLE.jpg

with a flash noseband on to stop the horse avoiding by opening the mouth.

A girl I know rides in one and she told me that it is no more harsh than my bit as she has light hands and doesnt haul on it. She told me that It can do damage if over used though. She uses a flash with this bit.

I used a DR Bristol like this one

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p120/Nik-n-Kia/BDRB1.jpg

for Kia at competitions as he leans and gets very strong in company but he schools and hacks in his snaffle. I use a flash at all times though.

What is so wrong with a flash??? Or is it the action of the bit with the flash???

Nikki xxxx

[Spiggly]

I personally dont like flashes, as i have seen horses with them far too tight and they are struggling to breathe. Bridles are now sold with the flash as the norm, rather than an optional extra.

If the horse opens the mouth to evade the bit, i much prefer to use a drop noseband than a flash, since the flash pulls the cavesson out of position. my old pony used to be ridden in a drop - he objected to anything else, including a flash.

Mouth opening can be a display of unhappness with the bit, but of course if you tie the mouth shut with a flash, who is going to know that the horse is unhappy in his mouth?

[Afellpony]

You ask if the Waterford bit is cruel - any bit can be cruel in the wrong hands. I wouldn't be happy using one with a flash nose band though.A bit is only as harsh as the hands that use it!!!!

[Joyscarer]

I personally dont like flashes, as i have seen horses with them far too tight and they are struggling to breathe. Bridles are now sold with the flash as the norm, rather than an optional extra.

If the horse opens the mouth to evade the bit, i much prefer to use a drop noseband than a flash, since the flash pulls the cavesson out of position. my old pony used to be ridden in a drop - he objected to anything else, including a flash.

Mouth opening can be a display of unhappness with the bit, but of course if you tie the mouth shut with a flash, who is going to know that the horse is unhappy in his mouth?

I bought a new bridle yesterday and OMG trying to find one without a flash. The flash is in :rolleyes:

[casey]

Personally I hate to see any type of gag ridden without pelham roundings. But your right, that is alot with the waterford, flash tc.

[Herbie's mummy]

No bit is crule.
Any bit is crule when let loose in the wrong hands.

[coss]

I personally dont like flashes, as i have seen horses with them far too tight and they are struggling to breathe. Bridles are now sold with the flash as the norm, rather than an optional extra.

If the horse opens the mouth to evade the bit, i much prefer to use a drop noseband than a flash, since the flash pulls the cavesson out of position. my old pony used to be ridden in a drop - he objected to anything else, including a flash.

Mouth opening can be a display of unhappness with the bit, but of course if you tie the mouth shut with a flash, who is going to know that the horse is unhappy in his mouth?

some horses don't like drop nosebands but work happily in a flash - every horse is different.

[vjoy23]

I used to ride one of mine in a dutch gag, but after a while I noticed that their head was constantly up in the air, this wasn't always the case.
I then moved onto a waterford as I have to be careful about poll pressure with this horse due to them having a burser behind their ear. The waterford was great for a time but like everything I felt the bit just wasn't working for us. I then brought a sprenger KK bit which so far is brilliant. I dont see how the waterford is that harsh providing you have soft hands, its not a skinny bit and as already said no nut cracker action.

I also dont see the problem with flash nosebands, if fitted correctly they're great for horses that like to get their tongue over the bit, you dont have to have them stupid tight to prevent this!

Getting back onto the subject...........this girl is trying to school but as said originally when she tries to school the horse bombs.
Maybe the horse has gone sour from schooling, my mums horse plants in the school as hes an ex riding school horse and now refuses to do it anymore lol

[CurlyWurlyRach]

without riding her horse i wouldnt like to say.

what i can say is I went from a Pelham, grackle and standing martingale to a snaffle, flash for hacking and running martingale (dont actually need it...) and i dont regret it at all.
I coulnt stop her in lots of tack so why bother?

[gandalf]

The waterford mouthpiece is actually relatively mild. There is no nutcracker action that you would find in a normal jointed snaffle. The idea of the bit is to stop the horse leaning on your hands. The bit curves in the mouth - giving the continuous rein effect. The mouthpiece should be slightly wider than a normal snaffle. If misused (as with any bit) there could be a harsh action

The Dr Bristol puts very strong pressure on the tongue and also works on the bars of the mouth. It is a very harsh bit.

[gandalf]

The waterford mouthpiece is actually relatively mild. There is no nutcracker action that you would find in a normal jointed snaffle. The idea of the bit is to stop the horse leaning on your hands. The bit curves in the mouth - giving the continuous rein effect. The mouthpiece should be slightly wider than a normal snaffle. If misused (as with any bit) there could be a harsh action

The Dr Bristol puts very strong pressure on the tongue and also works on the bars of the mouth. It is a very harsh bit.

[Nik-n-Kia]

A bit is only as harsh as it's user.

I would rather have something in my horses mouth that I get a response to than hauling for ages deadening and destroying his mouth with a less ''harsh'' bit.

I was always taught that it isnt a bit that ruins a horses mouth it is the rider/user of that bit. :o

I think that the girl in question should use what suits her and her horse as all bits/bitless contraptions can be misused and used to hurt or cause discomfort.

Nikki xxxxx :D

[Jessey]

IMO the issue here is not the waterford mouthpiece, or the gag or the flash, but that combination together, to try and cure a problem that by the nature of the bit will only be made worse eg horse thorws her head in the air and bolts - so use a bit that encourages the horse to raise its head ie gag, then horse is more likely to run off so use waterford to stop her pulling through the bit, then when the horses opens her mouth to avoid that strap it shut so she can't avoid it - not encouraging the horse to put its head high might help improve the problem?

[charlotte+jill!]

Bit is only as bad as the hands at the end of the reins.......

My horse is in a waterford pelham no curb and a grackle for jumping and I'll happily defend myself against anyone that says im cruel!

I had tried for 2 years looking for bits for showjumping at shows and XC ..... he wasnt happy in a dr.bristol...... or kineton noseband....... waterford normal was better still wasnt happy with the amont of contact I was have to used and steering wasnt so great.......... so tried the waterford pelham..... now i can showjump and XC happily with a nice consistant light contact.

People who dismiss bits that are harsher are ingorant in my opinion....... (obviously not talking about barbaric bits here) but im must happy with my horse in a harsh bit and a much lighter contact than i am in a milder bit and having to pull!......... and its not that my horse is bad or unschooled ..... he goes fantasticly in a kk ultra snaffle scoring into the 60s-mid 60s at novice level.

[mogadoga]

Personally I hate to see any type of gag ridden without pelham roundings. But your right, that is alot with the waterford, flash tc.

Not a dig at you!!! BUT i DONT like the roundings thing. The idea is to have your snaffle, then the 'extra brakes' the same as on a pellham, roundings just create an even pressure! Ive seen many horses become much stronger with these used rather than double reins.

Obviously ANY bit in the wrong hands is not good, but a waterford, as said, stops any nut cracker action and also prevents the horse being able to 'grab the bit'. I use this and the french link, my horse goes mental with a nut cracker action and actuallt is very happy in his waterford.

Although as said, its not the mouth piece, or gag, its the combination of mouthpiece/gag/flash. And the hands that use them!

[chev]

I'm quite amazed how many people think the waterford is not harsh. It is. However kind your hands are, it is a severe bit because of it's action; it acts on all parts of the mouth with fairly intense pressure even when a light contact is used. There is a reason horses don't pull in it - because it hurts when they do. It can hurt however lightly you use it - however gentle you are, there will be pressure from the balls on the mouth and there will be a degree of sidways action when reins are used independantly which drags the beads across the mouth.

To add a gag action means that not only are you acting on all parts of the mouth, but also introducing leverage in the mouth and the gag action on other parts of the head. Serious stuff.

I imagine the flash is there to stop the horse opening it's mouth - can't imagine it would readily accept that kind of pressure and (has to be said) discomfort otherwise.

Waterfords are useful tools. They are not really long-term bits, more a remedial bit. It's almost impossible to get a decent, steady contact in them, horses that work down into teh bridle in a waterford are extremely rare because the bit makes a steady contact impossible because of it's design (ie to stop horses leaning on the bit and pulling - a bit that stops that also stops the horse taking up a proper contact) and most horses end up behind the bit backing off the contact in a waterford eventually.

I have used one with Gelfy, as a remedial aid. It worked, did the job I needed it to. I wouldn't condemn their use, nor do I think the bit is an evil or 'cruel'.

But to say it's mild or kind is not the case at all. It isn't, regardless of who is holding the reins.

[RaThEr_Be_RiDiN]

....maybe its BECAUSE of the waterford gag combination and flash that the horse is bombing off ;)

[gandalf]

Surely the reason why horses don't grab onto a waterford bit - is because due to the multiple links the horse cant grab onto it. There is not a continuous pressure on any set point. Obviously if this bit was used with a sawing action it would become very severe - but then again most bits will cause injury if used like this. The waterford is meant to be used with very light contact - bringing the bit into action only when needed.

I have seen many mouth injuries inflicted by rough use of a snaffle bit. If incorrectly used the snaffle can cause damage to the bars of the mouth and can damage the palate. When the bit folds in the middle - the centre rises up digging into the palate - causing pain. It is often misuse of the snaffle bit that leads to problems with horses becoming very heavy in the hand later on.

I would agree that to combine the waterford mouthpiece with a continental gag would cause a very harsh bit action because the leverage pulls the mouthpiece right up against the teeth. Personally I dislike the continental gag altogether.

With the risk of being shot down - I think that frequently people are so wary about using a "stronger" bit - and continuing to use a "mild" bit, that they become very heavy handed, often inflicting far more damage than they would if they used a different bit.

[alexislol]

well i have my horse in a waterford gag and its not harsh but i rde him in the bottom ring aswell as having a grackle on. this is one good bit as i can stop my trotterx cob who was bred to pull carts but didnt like it. he is very strong for a 15.1hh 8 yr old but this bit i can control him. but still have to test it on the hunting feild as last year i got sent off for getting taken off with. lol:eek:

[april89]

I've always been throughly confused between strong and effective as I often find conflicting advice. :o

From what I've heard about the Kineton the horse may get on with it - depends on why he gets strong IMO. Again I'm not sure if the noseband is strong or just considered that because it is often effectice but it will put some of the rein pressure on the horses nose instead. I would therefore imagine that it would work opposite to a gag ? so they might not work well together. :confused:

I hope she manages to find the best solution for her and the horse. :)

xXx

[puzzles]

While I sort of, more or less, agree that a bit is only as harsh or as mild as the rider's hands (hmph - I'm sure that a yank in a snaffle is far lesser than a yank in a Cheltenhalm gag :-/ ) and I think it does depend almost entirely on the individual horse - whatever happened to a little schooling?! A decade or two ago it was an admission of failure if you had to change from a simple snaffle and cavesson, but now it's all the rage to go about in all sorts of concoctions: from pelhams used with one rein on one ring, or with roundings, to pelhams used with flashes, standing martingales for jumping ... I believe you have to find and treat the root cause rather than just the symotoms, and then mask any problems with ignorance and a 'gadget'.

:-)

xx

[Afellpony]

Does everyone taking part in this thread actually use a gag bit of any type? I just use a plain thick mouthed jointed snaffle. Sometimes with a noseband, sometimes without.

[star*]

I guess you are on about the 3 ring "gag" like this http://www.ayrequestrianshop.co.uk/thumbnails/waterford_gag.jpg which isn't actually acts as a gag it's just it's name. So no not cruel obviously if used properly.

[puzzles]

I use them, but only because the horses I ride aren't mine and I have no real choice.

Roundings, by the way, are so foul because they deny the precision intended by the use of a pelham/gag bit designed to be use with two reins: with Pelhams and Dutch gags in particular, use a different gag if you want to use one rein!

:-)

[goeslikestink]

No bit is crule.
Any bit is crule when let loose in the wrong hands.
exactly a bit is only as severe as the hands that use them

[stressedmum]

I used roundings on a pelham on my cob and i agree they were useless. When used with 2 reins i could see an immediate difference in him! Ruth x

[puzzles]

Ahem, a 'harsh' bit such as Cheltenham gag is strong however you use it - only more so should you abuse it.

xx

[Jacq]

whatever happened to a little schooling?! A decade or two ago it was an admission of failure if you had to change from a simple snaffle and cavesson, but now it's all the rage to go about in all sorts of concoctions: from pelhams used with one rein on one ring, or with roundings, to pelhams used with flashes, standing martingales for jumping ... I believe you have to find and treat the root cause rather than just the symotoms, and then mask any problems with ignorance and a 'gadget'.

I tend to agree with this.....probably the only problem is that the horse 'star gazes' and therefore the contact on the bit is all wrong... and sometimes the simplest answers can make the biggest of impacts. Having spent most of my life with racehorses we tend not to use 'gadgets' as such, (so I certainly wouldn't attempt to try to teach my granny how to suck eggs, as far as 'gadgets' are concerned....!).
However, if you have a horse fighting the bit and sticking it's head in the air, why not try just sticking the biggest, fluffiest sheepskin noseband on you can find? They aren't always there for show (although certain trainers do use them as a 'trademark').........
Think about it........if he sticks his head in the air, he can't look over the noseband........he has to drop his head to see.........!
Simple......but can be very effective......
Might be worth a try...........;)

Jac

[mogadoga]

Just realised i already replied to this :p

[puzzles]

I've only recently heard that idea Jacq - and I think it's a very humane and potentially effective one ... maybe not for jumping though as the hose needs to raise his head to judge the fence properly, and if he can't see that way ... :-)

xx

[Spiggly]

well i have my horse in a waterford gag and its not harsh but i rde him in the bottom ring aswell as having a grackle on. this is one good bit as i can stop my trotterx cob who was bred to pull carts but didnt like it. he is very strong for a 15.1hh 8 yr old but this bit i can control him. but still have to test it on the hunting feild as last year i got sent off for getting taken off with. lol:eek:

Personally i would suggest that you try reschooling your horse before taking him hunting again, if he is that dangerous that he will take off in that combination. I am rather appalled that you think this is a 'good bit' because you can stop him. Being bred to pull carts has no real bearing on your lack of reschooling him into a softer bit.

As Chev said, and i agree, reschooling in the waterford gag before moving back to a milder bit, is sometimes necessary. But you do not seem to be interested in this scenario?

[Jacq]

It's been used in racing for many, many years Puzzles (possibly a century or so), probably because it works. As I said in my earlier post, my knowledge is in racing and I wouldn't pretend to be up on other aspects of horsemanship, however steeplechasers quite happily run and jump in sheepskin nosebands, but all steeplechase fences have a take off rail and so they judge the fences accordingly.......
I appreciate this is totally different to showjumping, where perfect accuracy is the key, rather than speed.
However, I feel there could be a use for it as an aid for basic schooling........ perhaps to get him into 'good habits'.

Jac

[Back2Black]

A bit is only as severe as the hands at the other side of the reins... I find the waterford a very useful bit for the stronger horses as long as you are able to remain light with your hands... A simple snaffle in the wrong hands could do just as much damage...

[Fizz]

jay is schooled in a french link snaffle & hacked in a waterford hanging snaffle, its the only bit other than the pelham that he doesnt put his head between his legs & bugger off with you:rolleyes:

[Nik-n-Kia]

Personally i would suggest that you try reschooling your horse before taking him hunting again, if he is that dangerous that he will take off in that combination. I am rather appalled that you think this is a 'good bit' because you can stop him. Being bred to pull carts has no real bearing on your lack of reschooling him into a softer bit.

As Chev said, and i agree, reschooling in the waterford gag before moving back to a milder bit, is sometimes necessary. But you do not seem to be interested in this scenario?

Well I think that was bit harsh considering that you do not know the horse.

I can hack, school and jump in a snaffle, but as soon as Kia goes anywhere there are other horses galloping and jumping all the schooling and work goes out of the window. And hunting is dangerous enough without there being a bolting horse out of control as your barreling towards fences/hedges etc. I go to ride outs which are like hunts with no jumps and when there is an out of control rider it puts a lot of people in danger.

I was the out of control rider at one last year as Kia just buggered off and there was nothing I could do. I had to change bits and tighten everything up or go home. And it would have been more dangerous for me to try to take him away and hack the 10miles back to the staging area to get the trailer. It is very embarrassing to have a marshall or huntmaster tell you to get off the field.

Nikki xxxx

[AengusOg]

Perhaps your horse is just not suited to hunting? :)

[puzzles]

If your horse wants to bolt, he will, regardless of what bit he has in his mouth. I very much doubt it will solve your problem as it is merely treating the symptoms rather than the actual problem itself. A bit does not train a horse, nor change its way of thinking; it is only a tool, a channel of cummunication. Therefore if you want your horse to behave desirably out hunting, you need to school and train him ... No bit can substitue.

xx

[chev]

A bit is only as severe as the hands at the other side of the reins...

I still don't agree. There is of course some truth to that; but are you honestly saying that (for example) a twisted mouth gag with 4" shanks is just as kind as a simple French link snaffle in the right hands? Of course not.

Use the right tool for the job by all means.... but this 'it's only as nasty as the hands that hold it' is only part of the truth.

[showjumper-zoe]

No bit is crule.
Any bit is crule when let loose in the wrong hands.

I dissagre a twisted double-wire snaffle I would definately say was cruel actually inhumane no matter how it was being used or who was using it. Thankfully I don't know anyone who uses one.

But yes there are bits that novices shouldn't use, but if they are not novices and these people 'have the wrong hands' should they actually be riding? If they don't have respect for the horse and no empathy I don't think they should.

A waterford three ring used for the right reasons with a competent rider is fine with me.

[puzzles]

I still don't agree. There is of course some truth to that; but are you honestly saying that (for example) a twisted mouth gag with 4" shanks is just as kind as a simple French link snaffle in the right hands? Of course not.

Use the right tool for the job by all means.... but this 'it's only as nasty as the hands that hold it' is only part of the truth.

I agree. :)

xx