Raising energy to calm your horse?

[Montana]

My big ongoing issue with my horse is to help him to calm his mind and stay left brained. We've worked with this for years now, and have achieved some good successes, mainly due to the fantastic Mark Rashid clinics we've done (6 now:p )We've worked through some really difficult stuff.

Monty used to lose his mind at the smallest things, and once he'd gone into this reactive state of mind, he'd stay there for a long time. I've had to work really hard at improving my handling and leadership skills to help him through this. I now feel as though I'm by no means perfect, but I've got a fairly good grip on this.

Things I focus on mainly in situations where he worries are all to do with lowering his energy levels and calming the situation. I use various mehods of re-directing the energy, allowing him to move his feet, and rewarding him when he shows any sign of his thinking brain coming through - 'rewarding the try'. We use simple tasks that he's familiar with, backing, flexing, disengaging etc. We wait for softness to come through, then release. I focus on ensuring that I'm breathing :rolleyes: , something I never used to do in tense situations. I have never lost my temper even in the slightest way, I understand that daily life is hard for Monty, he's just one of those horses who worries a lot about all sorts of things.

I've recently come across a quote which has made me think about whether I could improve how I do things, from an article on Parelli, who I've never been a huge fan of:o. Although actually, the first thing I ever looked at of an NH nature was his book 'Natural Horse-man-ship' back about 7 or 8 years ago before the craze really took off. I remember having my eyes opened to a whole new way of things, but soon after decided that it wasn't the right route for me. The quote was to do with one of his 'responsibilities for the horse - don't act like a prey animal' :

'Show your horse what doesn't work and what does. For example, when he's freaking out, get more active to match his energy, but not his emotion. Get him busier - when he stops and looks at you, stop, smile and stay calm.'

Now this is similar to what I do - with one major difference. I have never tried raising my energy to join his. In my past experiences of dealing with situations where his energy goes through the roof, the last thing I would do is to join him in his drama. I always immediately try to calm the situation, to lower his energy level straight away.

My question (after a lot of waffling, sorry!) is - might it help him to understand that I acknowledge his raised 'alert' level, by matching it with my own at first, then use my other methods of lowering energy:o ?

These methods are nearly always successful by the way, my concern is that no matter how good I've got at working through this stuff with him, his concerns never really completely go away. It would be nice to help him to not have to live with the potential for a permanently heightened state of alert. Maybe part of the reason he is like this, is that he doesn't think I can appreciate the 'dangers' as I never react to them? Or am I completely off on a tangent here:D ?

Thoughts anyone:)

[lisae]

I know that when I encounter a situation where the horse is apprehensive and their energy (adrenaline) comes up, I have to work really hard to keep my energy level down and calm - so in other words, I'd have trouble raising my energy to match theirs without raising my emotion too! (ie usually fear and sometimes anger) .

I had an interesting opportunity to watch my mare work through a problem herself yesterday.. we had our first warm weather and when I turned her out in her field, there was a pine bough down near the evergreen in her pasture. She was scared by it there, partially buried in the snow. She stopped, shied, and circled around to try and look at it. She then ran away about 50 feet, stopped, ran back past it, and double barrell kicked it until it was truly dead! It was a window on her thoughts about unfamilar threats - and she decided to confront it. Meanwhile I was talking to her from outside the fenceline and saying, that's just a tree, look at it, etc. So did I help her 'decide' to confront it instead of continue to run away? Hard to tell! However, both her and her dam are 'circlers' instead of bolters, which I suppose is good for future riding situations, if the rider doesn't go out the side door at the first shy!

I did have a difference of opinion with a trainer who worked with her.. I thought in scary situations, I should "talk the horse down" with calm voice and demeanor. Trainer thought that if the rider/handler acknowledged the scary object or paid attention to it, the horse would get more scared because the leader was focusing on the scary thing. What does Rashid say for those situations?

[Montana]

I did have a difference of opinion with a trainer who worked with her.. I thought in scary situations, I should "talk the horse down" with calm voice and demeanor. Trainer thought that if the rider/handler acknowledged the scary object or paid attention to it, the horse would get more scared because the leader was focusing on the scary thing. What does Rashid say for those situations?

Hi Lisae,

I love the story about your mare:) I wish Monty could be a circler, but his instinct is definitely, if it looks scary, it is:rolleyes:

Mark would be a combination of you and your trainer. He doesn't give any credit to the things that bother your horse - he often says that we shouldn't get drawn into the horse's dramas. That the 'spook' or the unwanted behaviour is not what we're working on, therefore it should be treated as if it didn't happen. He explains that if you can just stay focussed on what you were doing, not the horse's reactive behaviour, then you can help the horse better. Keep patiently presenting the same information to the horse, 'this is what we're doing', and look for the 'quality' of the horse's response. It's not good enough that the horse just robotically responds to your request, but that they are soft and thinking as they do so. Having said that, Mark would never force a situation where a horse is struggling either. At a recent clinic, several horses were spooked by a particular window in the arena wall - Mark just had them work away from it instead.

Where Mark would differ from what you do maybe is that he wouldn't look to offer praise or soothing to the state of mind when your horse is upset. He believes that to pet a horse, or to offer food to an worried horse, is a reward for that state of mind. I'm not sure how this would translate to simply talking in a soothing voice - maybe that's different? Having said that - a calm demeanor is exactly what he'd advocate.

Where I'm wondering if I can make a change though is maybe if, for example, Monty spooks forward, instead of working at backing for example until I get that quiet state of mind through, maybe I should, I don't know, ask for a more energetic forward??:o Work with his natural inclination a bit more? Seems completely opposite to what I would normally think to do, but maybe switching this stuff up a little could bring the breakthrough I've been looking for? Ho hum, confused myself again....!
Any thoughts?

[KateWooten]

I don't know if this is relevant, but I had a big issue with a John Lyons' approach to scary objects ... in lisae's story, JL would have been saying 'tree, what tree, there is no tree, focus on me'.

I don't like that approach at all. I acknowledge the horse's right to be scared, I look at the thing, I need him to know that I've seen what he's pointing at - I think all herd members would take not of someone pointing to a potential danger ... and then I attempt to say, it's ok, I've checked it out and we're fine. To me, if I simply say 'it's fine, shut up' without looking at the scary thing then my reassurance is about worthless to the horse.

Now about this raising the energy to match the horse ... hmmmm... I don't think I've tried that. I'm not sure how to ... I'm thinking of Rosie yesterday who is very underworked, all hyped up, in season, and feeling wonderful after all her chiro ... there is no way I could match all that energy - it was amazing. I wish I could have got her on video - she is so stunning - she has a very beautiful belly when seen from below ... I digress ... the best I can do there is clap and applaud her - I guess that's kind of along the same lines ? I shout 'woo hoo' at the biggest rears, and 'you go girl' as she gallops a 20 m circle in three strides ... encouraging, rather than restraining. I can no way match her energy, but I can add a little fuel to the fire...

[mayoguinness]

It is what I was always taught. For example, the horse wants to run than make him run, get him to go faster and he'll soon see that by running in the first place, you match his energy and make him work. What I was always taught in the Australian NH world untill lat year Jayne Lavender (who is an Aussie NH person) came along and she said that there wwas no need for that, stay calm and as the leader you set the example that your not scared and in my mind it works better and instead of getting all hyped up with the horse you bring the energy right down and instead of you matching the horse, the horses matches you :)

[Lili & Morgan]

We ought to ask PP what it meant by raising his energy to match the horse's with out his emotions :confused: if he wrote over 10 yrs ago, he might have changed his mind about it :p

I would NOT raise my energy, with my over-energetic mare! Gosh that would be very dangerous --> To fuel her adrenaline :eek: I acknowledge her fear, I let her check out, I am LOWERING down my energy, and I explain there is nothing wrong about the situation. After letting her checking out, we move on.

But my mare is a Watch-horse, it is in her mental make-up to check things out ... so .... I will stress her out if I did not let do it.

What will be Monty role in a herd? Other than the worrier one?

For example, my gelding is much less courageous than my mare, but he is an explorer, so his curiosity often overtakes his fear ;)

[Montana]

I don't like that approach at all. I acknowledge the horse's right to be scared, I look at the thing, I need him to know that I've seen what he's pointing at - I think all herd members would take not of someone pointing to a potential danger ... and then I attempt to say, it's ok, I've checked it out and we're fine.

Now about this raising the energy to match the horse ... hmmmm... I don't think I've tried that. I'm not sure how to ...

Hi Kate,

Yep - I absolutely acknowledge his right to be scared. I suppose it's like you say though, short of just looking at the thing he's spooking at, how else would I say this. I don't want to make an issue of it in any way, just a quick agreement that 'ok, that was briefly worrying, but now I'll fix it' It's more to do with whether or not there is a way I can help him to think things through himself a little better, or am I just trying to fight thousands of years of prey instinct:rolleyes: :p ?

I'm not sure I'd want to go down this route either, or even how to, but for some reason it struck me as an interesting concept, and something I haven't tried.


instead of getting all hyped up with the horse you bring the energy right down and instead of you matching the horse, the horses matches you :)

Sorry, I think you've mis-understood me Mayo, I know I'm not explaining myself too well:) I'm not talking about putting him to work mindlessly.

Absolutely the last thing I would ever do is 'get hyped up with him'. More along the lines of looking into working better with him, if that makes sense. For example, he used to spin while out hacking if he got scared. If I had tried to stop him spinning to the right by applying a cue to go to the left, we would have got into a fight. If I however allowed him to spin to the right, but asked him to keep going through 360 degrees, we both got something we wanted. He got to move his feet, I got to continue going the way I was going:)

It's an extension of this principle I'm after, allowing his instincts to have credence, while still working productively. Am I creating more problems for us by insisting that my energy level is more appropriate than his in this situation:confused: ? I don't know the answer to this yet.

It's just that through many years of working with him on bringing his energy levels back down when something worries him and his adrenaline shoots up, we still haven't got to a situation where he can find a way to deal with his worries. To use a 'buzz' phrase from the office (hate those things, but this is a good one!), I would like to be proactive rather than reactive. I'm well practised:rolleyes: and rather good at the calming, energy lowering side of things - now I'm looking to see if there's something else which might be a longer term solution. Can I help him not to have to do these things in the first place? I'm guessing not.....?

[Montana]

We ought to ask PP what it meant by raising his energy to match the horse's with out his emotions :confused: if he wrote over 10 yrs ago, he might have changed his mind about it :p

But my mare is a Watch-horse, it is in her mental make-up to check things out ... so .... I will stress her out if I did not let do it.

What will be Monty role in a herd? Other than the worrier one?

For example, my gelding is much less courageous than my mare, but he is an explorer, so his curiosity often overtakes his fear ;)

Hi Lili,

I'm not going to pretend I have any idea if this is what Parelli now believes, but this is a brand new article for a UK magazine. so I'm guessing it's up to date with his current thinking? I took it to mean staying calm but moving faster etc in simplistic terms...

Monty's a funny character in a herd. He's extremely aggressive to other horses, as far as pulling faces, kicking out, running towards them with ears back etc. He doesn't have any 'friends' as such. But he has huge seperation anxiety with a couple of them in particular, and all other horses in general. He doesn't like it when another horse gets led away and cannot tolerate being on his own, even briefly, in a stable block. He's fairly difficult to take into the school at home, as he takes about 15 minutes to settle down without calling and getting his energy levels right up. This is something we have to work through every time we go away from other horses, and a good example of the type of thing I mean. Once he's got through this period of worry however, he's just fine, even if another horse then comes and goes as we work and leaves him alone again.

He's not an explorer like your gelding though, if something worries him, he'll flee and not ever spend time working it out:o If it's possibly a danger, he doesn't want to know, and I need to work extremely hard to pursuade him otherwise.

[Harry Hobbes]

One of the major fallacies permeating the hobbyist equine world is that one needs to lower the energy of a spooky or nappy horse so as to be able to control various situations. This leads to all kinds of actions such as reducing/eliminating feed, stronger bits, other mechanical devices, and a variety of maneuvers; all used with the intent of reducing displayed energy.

This need to reduce energy is taught to novices in an attempt to help them learn to moderate their horse to a level that they can manage. In other words, throttle the horse back to what the novice can handle. (Differentiated from raising the competency level of the rider to match the horse.)

But if you study the Masters (such as Parelli), you will discover that they do not advocate reducing energy; rather, they advocate channeling energy to some productive activity. We want an energetic horse. However, we want that energy channeled in the right direction. Attempting to prevent energy is counter-productive; whereas natural expenditure (e.g., running) is therapeutic (for many reasons).

This requires raising the competency of the rider.

Not "…join his drama" is apposite in the sense that you should not get emotionally wrapped around the axle (as is he) at whatever caught his attention. But matching his energy level and [i]channelling it so that he may expend his energy by doing something productive (and therapeutic) is the thing to do. As Parelli (and his teachers) said: Get busy.

But if you want to accommodate his energy level, then you'll have to get busy with some high-energy activities.

This is why as an example, in certain circumstances we will allow a fidgety horse to gallop to its heart's content (if we have the space to do so).
...might it help him to understand that I acknowledge his raised 'alert' level, by matching it with my own at first, then use my other methods of lowering energyAllow the horse to manage his own energy. That's his job. Your job is to give him tasks and activities to perform so that he doesn't get into trouble.

Get him busy in some other direction, doing something so that the horse comes to the conclusion that "she's not even paying attention to this scary thing over here; she's off doing something else."

By you going somewhere else mentally (i.e., focusing on a different activity), you are challenging him mentally and emotionally: You are setting up a situation wherein if the horse wants to spook, it finds itself alone in the spook, because you're not reacting with it, but are focused on other things. Given the options to be alone (mentally/emotionally) or be with you, its herd instinct (and allelomimetic characteristic) will pressure it to the latter.

Doing this is how you can lead from the front emotionally so that your horse may follow you emotionally.
These methods are nearly always successful by the way, my concern is that no matter how good I've got at working through this stuff with him, his concerns never really completely go away.Might it be possible that by doing those same, safe methods repeatedly, that the horse has been positively reinforced in its behavior?

As in this hypothetical sequence: Horse spooks; rider breaks hindquarters over; horse stops; rider pets (or otherwise comforts) horse.

Do you think that the horse in this hypothetical sequence might come to the conclusion that spooking will result in a reward?

Food for thought,
Harry

[julia gulia]

As in this hypothetical sequence: Horse spooks; rider breaks hindquarters over; horse stops; rider pets (or otherwise comforts) horse.

Do you think that the horse in this hypothetical sequence might come to the conclusion that spooking will result in a reward?

Food for thought,
Harry[/QUOTE]

Agree with everything you said Harry..except for this part:D It will only be seen as a reward if the horse is praised for doing it. What if the scary object is seen by the horse and the rider ignores the scary object and gives the horse a job to do which might include a flex and disengage or a trot around a tree or a gallop up a hill. I don't praise my horse for a flex or a trot when I ask for it....
Also wanted to point out that what you outlined in your post above is also what is advised by John Lyons.

[levi1739]

Montana, your on the right path with this question. I believe your horse is ready to teach you some things about the way he "thinks". He's ready to teach because your ready to listen to him. Your recognition of his "left brain" (thinking brain) is something that many never realize. It's the heart of western riding. (where did you get the term "left brained"?)

MyMare has given me some great lessons in riding a "spooky" horse. My experience may help you some. I'm a firm believer in "make their idea, my idea", and usually can be "trusted" to react in that manner. This means that if my horse wants to "jump left", I let them and then continue to "spin to the left" by disengaging the hindquarters. I don't stop when they want, but rather when I do by, "haveing my own idea" and reversing the spin to the right etc." Now, depending on the severity of the spook, these spins might be "tight" (***-engaging) or more "circling/serpentines"

Sometimes, I try to ignore the "object" (or cause of the spook/nappiness) and just "ride em" like I always do, "calm, but with what ever energy the job calls for". (you can raise your energy, and still be calm) This "always ridin" is where you will find the "pro-active" approach your looking for. Shucks, turn that horse into a circle a lot, "whenever YOU think of it", and he will begin to ignore the spooky objects and pay more attention to "that fool on his back". ;)

Other times I use the object and the horses energy to accomplish some training. If my horse is scared of an object on her right, and I turn her to the right, she just might use that "fear's energy" to create a pretty nice roll back. ;) Turn her back to the left and concentrate on the maneuver, heck that spooky object is our training aid.

Ahh the stories I could tell of some infamous "spooks". MyMare is a great actress and often will "fake a spook" to try and snatch a bite of grass. It keeps me on my toes, causes me to "ride her" and keep in touch with that "thinking brain". Once you start doing that, with consisitancy, the spookiness just seem's to go away.

Funny isn't it, "if you want them to stop, make em go". How's his back up?


Have fun, be safe

Jack

[Montana]

Get him busy in some other direction, doing something so that the horse comes to the conclusion that "she's not even paying attention to this scary thing over here; she's off doing something else."

By you going somewhere else mentally (i.e., focusing on a different activity), you are challenging him mentally and emotionally: You are setting up a situation wherein if the horse wants to spook, it finds itself alone in the spook, because you're not reacting with it, but are focused on other things. Given the options to be alone (mentally/emotionally) or be with you, its herd instinct (and allelomimetic characteristic) will pressure it to the latter.

Might it be possible that by doing those same, safe methods repeatedly, that the horse has been positively reinforced in its behavior?

As in this hypothetical sequence: Horse spooks; rider breaks hindquarters over; horse stops; rider pets (or otherwise comforts) horse.

Do you think that the horse in this hypothetical sequence might come to the conclusion that spooking will result in a reward?

Food for thought,
Harry

Hi Harry,

Thanks for this - definitely food for thought.

In essence then, I'm already doing most of this, but perhaps much too tentatively? I don't try to restrain him physically into reducing displayed energy, but I do feel that while he is breakneck speed for example, my ability to channel his energy is reduced. Maybe you're right in that it's my competancy to deal with these really heightened situations that's in question. I guess this is up to me to fix:rolleyes: . But when working with Mark Rashid, the aims we have always discussed are to help him not to get into that state in the first place. Dealing with it if it happens, but using as much as neccessary, as little as possible. I wll admit though, I do tend towards tip toeing around him if I think it may provoke a large reaction. This is something I'm working hard on trying to fix in myself, as it does limit my leadership abilities.

My main goal is always to give my horse a job to do, and get him focussed on the work in hand, rather than wherever else he feels the need to be. I like the explanation of the 'herd' reasoning behind this. I've never thought of this aspect of being the leader in this situation. If I'm strong enough in my focus on something else, the he literally feels left behind and isolated from the 'herd' unless he comes with me?

I make a definite point of never rewarding spooky behaviour by petting, or otherwise comforting when he's in that frame of mind. But I see your point in that there is eventually a reward in there. It's what I'm rewarding that I try to differentiate - wait for what I want to come through, then offer the reward.

If for example we were backing with me on the ground as the tool I was working with to settle him; when he offers backing in fluid diagonal pairs, his head lowers, his eye gets soft and any resistance is gone, then we stop and stand? Is this a reward to him. I guess so - but it's not what he was intending to do. He was planning on running very fast, very far....

Am I then rewarding the spook, or the quiet behaviour that came after the spook when his frame of mind was exactly how I would like it?

I see where you're coming from in that he may offer the behavior in order to get the reward of stopping. But one of the times he's at his worst is when I'm simply asking him to stand still to mount at the start of work and he's desperate to get back to the herd. So would he really perceive the work I then put him to then ultimately getting to stop his feet as a reward?:confused:

[Montana]

Your recognition of his "left brain" (thinking brain) is something that many never realize. It's the heart of western riding. (where did you get the term "left brained"?)


Sometimes, I try to ignore the "object" (or cause of the spook/nappiness) and just "ride em" like I always do, "calm, but with what ever energy the job calls for". (you can raise your energy, and still be calm) This "always ridin" is where you will find the "pro-active" approach your looking for.


Funny isn't it, "if you want them to stop, make em go". How's his back up?


Have fun, be safe

Jack

Hi Jack,

'Left brained' seems like a term I've known since I've started this journey with my horse - always searching for it, not always finding it! I've spent a fair bit of time out in Texas, maybe that's where I've picked it up?:p

I like the idea of 'always riding' - I've had issues in the past of losing my focus when Monty loses his, this is something I've tried to discipline myself into, but without always succeeding:rolleyes: I get rail roaded into working on something completely different to what I wanted to be working on. I guess though, that as long as I always put conviction behind the new goal, it doesn't really matter that this changes? Maybe I need to be more adaptable as I go?

His back up is pretty good. Not always as energetic as I'd like it, and it can sometimes be a little mechanical if he's distracted so that I have to really keep asking until I get something more fluid through. But mostly he can engage his hocks and power back pretty nicely. Why? What else can I do with this? :)

[mayoguinness]

love to be able to comment, but trying to read all these last posts is making my eyes hurt...........find it hard to read anything to long on the computer!! strange really......................

[levi1739]

I was just trying to get a feel for his balance between "forward and backward". His spookiness sounds more "forward" and I wondered if he showed much resistance in backwards. What can you do with it, hmmm :D

Here's some thoughts about "always ridin". You mention he resists entering the arena or leaving the other horses. I feel that this is the moment when many people "miss" the opportunity to "listen" to the horse. When you approach a horse, "it's time to start ridin". ;)

By start ridin, I mean "find that thinking brain" or get the horses attention focused on you. This might mean lunging in the pasure or maybe just a simple step backwards will work. Start small and "ask" for you horses attention and then when you get it, "keep it".

When your riding him towards the arena, get him busy before he reacts or resists entering. Get his attention outside and then take it on in there with you. Heck, circle him back and forth through the gate, go back and forth, outside-inside etc. "Ride him", and keep that thinking brain on you. Get his attention really good and I suspect he might not even notice all those other distractions.

And that's the way I like em, ;)


Have fun, be safe

Jack

[Joyscarer]

I think the term 'left brain' is a Pat Parelli one :)

[Chilli]

I used to go along the lines of, if the horse spooks, keep it moving, give it some work to do so it has something else to concenrate on rather that the "spooky" thing while trying pretend the spook didn't happen, which is the sort of thing you find a lot of NH trainer do in one way or another.

I have since left this methology and gone over to something along the lines of Tom Dorrance's "As you approach the spooky object take your feet out of the stirups and light a cigarette as you ride on by"

The first method is a physical approach, the horse does something physical you do something physical to counter it.

The second method isn't and i have found the if i use the first method which is perfectly good and works that i have to do the same thing everytime the horse spooks and the numuber of times the horse spooks doesn't seem to deminish, with the second method the horse appears to learn that if your not bothered then there is no reason for it to be and the number of times the horse spooks seems to deminish, when it does spook it's just for a split second before it stops and comes back to you.

Never really understood how when a horse spooks and canters off, and you make him keep cantering he knows it’s because he’s spooked as opposed to he spooks and canters, you keep him cantering because there was a scary thing and spooking was the right thing to do.

Keeping the horse busy, keeping his attention so he doesn’t have time to spook I understand but isn’t it just avoiding the issue rather than getting the horse to spook less/ manage his fear/get him to think not react.

Obviously if your riding a horse off his face on hard feed going like an unexploded bomb the second method isn't going to be easy/work.

[Montana]

When your riding him towards the arena, get him busy before he reacts or resists entering. Get his attention outside and then take it on in there with you. Heck, circle him back and forth through the gate, go back and forth, outside-inside etc. "Ride him", and keep that thinking brain on you. Get his attention really good and I suspect he might not even notice all those other distractions.

Jack
Ah. I don't tend to ride him towards the arena...I lead him up there, then work him on the ground a little until he settles, then get on and ride. All stems from the fact that he's so nervous being ridden out on his own, that I only tend to do this (and even then, just around the property), after I work in the arena and get him safe and switched on. At some point, I figure that with the work we're doing on our own in the arena combined with hackin gout in company, he'll get to a stage where he's happy to be ridden on his own straight from the barn. Maybe it's this I need to approach differently?


I have since left this methology and gone over to something along the lines of Tom Dorrance's "As you approach the spooky object take your feet out of the stirups and light a cigarette as you ride on by"

Never really understood how when a horse spooks and canters off, and you make him keep cantering he knows it’s because he’s spooked as opposed to he spooks and canters, you keep him cantering because there was a scary thing and spooking was the right thing to do.

Keeping the horse busy, keeping his attention so he doesn’t have time to spook I understand but isn’t it just avoiding the issue rather than getting the horse to spook less/ manage his fear/get him to think not react.


Hi Chilli,
I like the Tom Dorrance explanation:) This is what I aim for - not to ride the spook as though it never happened - but to not even notice it happening ultimately! To be so aware and 'soft' in myself, that we can pick straight up without skipping a beat.

I don't subscribe to the 'make the horse work once it spooks to keep it distracted/give it work as a negative consequence of its actions' theory. I do the redirect of energy as a neccessary thing - once he starts to lose his mind, it takes a fair bit to get it back. I'm not just talking about spooking either.

Really, the spooks are the least of my worries, and far fewer and less drastic these days. I'm more concerned about how I can provide him with the type of work which will keep him focussed and thinking I suppose. How can I deal with the fact that every time I take him to the arena, he feels the need to lose his mind for 5 -10 minutes, then just settles down to work and does a good job of staying focussed. How do I take that edge off his thinking (or not thinking as the case may be:rolleyes: )?:confused:

ETA - I just quit smoking 2 months ago - do I need to start again?! ...... . .... ..(.Joke!!!)

[Harry Hobbes]

I don't try to restrain him physically into reducing displayed energy, but I do feel that while he is breakneck speed for example, my ability to channel his energy is reduced. I understand completely. Sometimes, you just hang on for dear life.

I learned this on a cattle drive a few years back when I was re-training a young Morgan mare that had only done English work in a barn. This was her first time in open country, with all those nasty, bawling cattle. She was throwing fits and really wanted to go back to the trailers (and thence to the safety of the barn.)

Anyway, we had a bunch of run-back calves that bolted back from whence we came, and I had to turn Madison around to catch and head off all those calves. As soon as I turned her back (towards the trailers) she decided this was her chance; and she ran.

Now the ground she was running on was very boulder-strewn and hazardous; real broken ground. If I had my druthers, I wouldn't even trot through there. But I just knew that if I interfered with her by trying to stop or turn her, we'd be in one hell of a wreck. So I put my faith in the Man and the horse, and gave her her head.

She negotiated the ground at a full gallop for a 1/4 mile until we overtook the calves, which promptly got around us, so we had to gallop after them again. Then again, before we got them stopped and turned.

But the interesting thing is that this little filly was able to negotiate hazardous, broken ground three times at a full gallop, and not mis-step once. Luck was not involved.

After that incident, I no longer doubt the ability of any horse.
...when working with Mark Rashid, the aims we have always discussed are to help him not to get into that state in the first place.This is always a good strategy; keeps you thinking ahead; about what you're going to do with your horse.
...I do tend towards tip toeing around him if I think it may provoke a large reaction.I think that you and the horse may be better served if you were consistently deliberate and casual rather than "tentative" and "tip-toeing." Of all the masters I'm familiar with, John Lyons makes this point best; to wit: Show hesitancy, tentativeness, cautiousness, tip-toeing, and the horse will get the idea that something is present to be tentative, hesitant and cautious about. I.e., there's something present to be scared about. This will put the horse on edge.
If for example we were backing with me on the ground as the tool I was working with to settle him; when he offers backing in fluid diagonal pairs, his head lowers, his eye gets soft and any resistance is gone, then we stop and stand? Is this a reward to him. It is; and it's appropriate.
Am I then rewarding the spook, or the quiet behaviour that came after the spook when his frame of mind was exactly how I would like it?Generally, the reward is for his last action.

But you may be rewarding the sequence of actions beginning with the spook. Consider that horses can and do chain a series of behaviors together for one reward; this very well may be what's happening.

The unstated point of the hypothetical sequence above is that if the "...concerns never really completely go away", it may very well be because the horse is being reinforced in the behavior. In other words, the spooky behavior is not being extinguished; and we extinguish behavior by not reinforcing it.

How can you tell if the behavior [i.e., spooking] is being reinforced? Observe whether or not the behavior is extinguishing.
It's what I'm rewarding that I try to differentiate - wait for what I want to come through, then offer the reward.Again, just the right thing to do.

But just watch for that extinguishing to occur. If it doesn't, then somehow, some way, the horse is being reinforced. If you determine that to be the case, then a change in your actions is appropriate. (As Lyons has stated: If it's not working, do something else.)
I see where you're coming from in that he may offer the behavior in order to get the reward of stopping.Or of petting/praise from the rider. But you understand the basic premise.
But one of the times he's at his worst is when I'm simply asking him to stand still to mount at the start of work and he's desperate to get back to the herd. So would he really perceive the work I then put him to then ultimately getting to stop his feet as a reward?This sounds like he just does not enjoy the work; and I suspect that going back to the barn after work is the reward he's expecting. He's certainly looking for it before you begin. Do you, or can you vary your riding activities? For example, can you do long (15+ mile) hacks on a regular basis?

Best regards,
Harry

[Chilli]

Well after reading the whole thread properly (Last night i wanted to get outside and ride, we have been riding in the dark with this fox for the last 2 nights and we are geting closer and closer each day 10 feet last night before he strolled off :))

The thing i'd "try" to do is make myself one of the horses he's desperate not to be seperated from, i'd take him away on his own as much as possible (not just riding but hanging out doing nothing) so he has to rely on you for comfort, i know it may not be possible in the modern world as it will take a lot of time and may not work, but if it does most of your problems will melt away.

At the same time even though your looking to avoid situations occuring you need to be confident you can deal with them when they do at which point they don't seem to occur anymore.

Good luck, after seeing the pictures of you riding with the neck rein it's had to believe you have these issues :)

[Montana]

But just watch for that extinguishing to occur. If it doesn't, then somehow, some way, the horse is being reinforced. If you determine that to be the case, then a change in your actions is appropriate. (As Lyons has stated: If it's not working, do something else.)

This sounds like he just does not enjoy the work; and I suspect that going back to the barn after work is the reward he's expecting. He's certainly looking for it before you begin. Do you, or can you vary your riding activities? For example, can you do long (15+ mile) hacks on a regular basis?

Best regards,
Harry

Thanks for this Harry. This is the crux of what I'm trying to get at I suppose. I can deal with most of these things as they happen, and am pretty confident in my ability to do so ( I like 'casual and deliberate' - my sister is always tring to get me to read John Lyons, she's done clinics with his son (Josh?) - will get the books...!)
But inadvertantly, I must be doing something which doesn't complete the action I think. I can fix things as they arise, but need a more comprehensive 'fix' which stop them surfacing in the first place.
Probably a lot to do with it is me over analysing, and unintentionally hanging on to how he used to behave . I could probably push the envelope a lot more than I do. This is something I've been discussing with Mark for years. He agrees that when I first started Monty, absolutely the right thing to do was soft, quiet and slow, he was explosive beyond all reason, but that I have a different horse these days, and need to treat him as such. Being tentative is a major downfall of mine:rolleyes:

I do try to vary my activities as much as possible, in the arena we focus on a lot of different things, playing with feel and transitions and collection. I ride with just a neck rein occasionally, bareback, play with different movements and obstacles, lateral work and so on. I'm not so good with the outside stuff. Lack of a regular riding companion for the last 6 months has really limited me. He's not confident hacking out on his own, and the initial roadwork makes this dangerous. Having said that, there's probably a lot more I could do to improve this, and this is one of my major plans for the next few months. He could well be bored in the arena after this long winter.

Out in company, he's great, will lead up front, is enthusiastic, but we have mainly lanes and short woodland areas, so not the best.

I wonder if I worry too much though - my main reason for not riding out with others is that, although he's perfectly controllable, doesn't scare me in the slightest with anything he does any more (and it's not much!), I lose the 'refinement' we get in the arena, and I worry I'm teaching him bad habits. He and I have a habit of accidentally building in braces....We lose the soft connection I've worked so hard to get. He's much more distracted. I suppose tha main thing to do would be just to get out and do more of it??



The thing i'd "try" to do is make myself one of the horses he's desperate not to be seperated from, i'd take him away on his own as much as possible (not just riding but hanging out doing nothing)

At the same time even though your looking to avoid situations occuring you need to be confident you can deal with them when they do at which point they don't seem to occur anymore.

Good luck, after seeing the pictures of you riding with the neck rein it's had to believe you have these issues :)

Hi Chilli

Love the fox story!

Yes, I think that's important. If he can look to me for leadership/companionship, we may start to improve the seperation anxiety. We do just hang out a lot, although no-where near as much in the Winter, maybe that's what's made this more noticable? He was 'box' (barn) rested for 4 months last year with a tendon injury, and we used to hand graze around the property etc every day, this helped I think.

But the strangest thing to me is that once he's had his manic 5 mins, he'll then settle, listen intently, work relaxed and collected with just a neck ring etc etc....:rolleyes: He does a lot of good stuff. He's a great, sensitive and clever horse, huge fun to work with and a challenge to my horsemanship:) It's just these edges I can't smooth out that I really struggle to reconcile.

[Chilli]

So what is it that he actually does in his mad 5 mins ?

I mean if it's whizz round on a 20ft rope having a good old run/buck/play etc before you get on to ride, it may be that he's doing it becasue he thinks its what you want him to do before you ride ?

I'm sure Kathleen will have some ideas when you see her in the summer.

[teabiscuit]

i once yelled at a horse killing sheep that me and thug weren't scared of it for a penny cup of tea(how does that rhyme go?)

and my very scaredey pants horse shrugged and went "if she's yelling at it i'm safe"

my usual tactic is reassure and take my time, but i'd had enough - he'd been extra scaredy pants on this day- and just yelled at the sheep

i was totally astonished at thugs response - he totally chilled out....

i use a mix now. reassurance works sometimes, being scarey towards the horse eating monster works sometimes

but you get odd looks, and the sheep don't have a clue why you're yelling at 'em and totally ignore you:D
the things we do for hosses

[Joyscarer]

I have nothing to add but wanted to say how much I have gained from reading this thread so thank you :)

[Montana]

So what is it that he actually does in his mad 5 mins ?

I mean if it's whizz round on a 20ft rope having a good old run/buck/play etc before you get on to ride, it may be that he's doing it becasue he thinks its what you want him to do before you ride ?

I'm sure Kathleen will have some ideas when you see her in the summer.

I don't ask him to lunge or free school or anything like that. It's not the same look as a horse who's been stuck in a stable and wants to be release some energy, running, playing etc. He does it if he's living out 24/7 and has been running around like a fool in the field just before.

It's more that he gets uptight, tense, starts crowding and pushing through me, screaming for the other horses, walking in front of me etc - stuff that he never dreams of doing either when I'm just handling him once he's settled, or bringing him in and out of the field or moving him around his stable or yard or anything else we do as a day to day routine. His boundaries are extremely well established in 99% of cases, just not when he 'loses it' (so maybe not really all there at all...:rolleyes: ). I then have to get him 'back' to me, moving his feet, softening his braces, re-directing his forward into a backward, stopping and standing and so on....

I'm sure Kathleen will have some good stuff too:p Problem is, when we're away from home, first thing he looks to for guidance is ....me...:rolleyes: We don't see this stuff at clinics, or rather, it's there, but in a different way. People often come up to me and say that they think he's wonderful on the ground, that they didn't understand why we were there (until we start working on the more boundary pushing riding stuff - then they get it:p )

I have nothing to add but wanted to say how much I have gained from reading this thread so thank you :)

Hi Joyscarer (wondered for a while why you'd want to scare Joy, then I got it....:D )
Thanks - I love threads like this too. Particularly when they're packed full of great advice directly relating to my situation...so much to think about. I love bouncing ideas around here:)

i once yelled at a horse killing sheep that me and thug weren't scared of it for a penny cup of tea(how does that rhyme go?)

and my very scaredey pants horse shrugged and went "if she's yelling at it i'm safe"

....the sheep don't have a clue why you're yelling at 'em and totally ignore you:D
the things we do for hosses

I love this! And I actually see how it could work:p That's what I'm talking about in being creative with the solutions to these things. I think we get too scared to try something as off the wall as this, but why not?! Poor sheep though.....

[Tootsie4U]

Hi Montana,

I've been reading the thread but didnt have anything to contribute. But I do have a question. Do you think his reactions have anything to do with your position as the leader?

I ask because Im going through the same thing with Bonfire at the moment. Im having a hard time dealing with his irrational fear of doors, which has been a problem that he's had for years. I call it his phobia. What you descibe here in your thread from the behavior of the horse to the reactions and tactics we make is almost identicle. I have tried so many of the 'conventional' fixes but have never had any lasting success.

Today I sat down and read a book on horse behavior and there was a passage in it that was very relative to what Im going through with Bonfire. Quite simply, and Im summarizing, Im not being a strong enough leader in helping him deal with these things that scare him. Two days ago, if you asked me if I was the leader I would have been confident to say yes but now Im second guessing myself. So I wonder if the same is a possibility for you?

[Montana]

Hi Tootsie,

In a word, possibly, 'yes'. This thread in particular has made me wonder whether I'm as effective as I need to be in showing him how good of a leader I can be to him. At least, in doing this consistently.

It's funny, part of the reason I enjoyed thinking and posting about your 'door' problem is that it was working on the same type of problem as I have with Monty.

When I expect there to be an issue - often there is.....wonder why that could be:o In situations I know I can handle with absolute confidence, loading for example, where I have huge success, then everything goes right:p Success breeds success.... Because I 'know' I'm good at loading difficult horses easily, I can load difficult horses easily:rolleyes:

But ask me to go to the arena, and hop straight on my calm horse - not a snowflake's chance in hell:p We have to go through this whole issue first.....hmm.....Maybe that's what it is - that when I'm expecting problems, I'm not being a good leader. He's such a sensitive boy he could very easily feed off that feeling of mine.....

Thanks:D Lightbulb moment...

ETA - What was the book?

[Joyscarer]

Yeah I thought about my name and decided that the combination of carer and scarer was a good one given my inexperience :D

[Tootsie4U]

Jahiel's first book on problem horse behavior. Particularly, pages 133-137.

In these pages, she lists why a horse spooks.

1) If the horse or rider isnt paying attention (to each other and the work)
2) If there is a benefit to the horse (to spook)
3) If you have asked for the spook
4) If you started the spook

Now, I find numbers 3 and 4 intriguing. Number one is obvious. Number two has sorta been addressed here in your thread mostly by Harry.

Hopefully I wont be infringing on copyright issues, but I'll try to paraphrase and summarize what I think may be a big contributing factor to your and my problem. (numbers 2, 3 and 4)

Jahiel explains what sort of 'rewards' we might be giving the horse so that it gets a benefit by spooking. She lists entertainment first. Spooking means a change in the routine - why trot another boring circle when you can spice it up with a big leap sideways? Spooking affords the horse a change of direction, speed, or frame. If the horse is allowed to take the reins during a spook or if the reins are dropped by the rider as a response - there's a reward. And of course she goes on to describe the 'novice' reward of petting or soothing a horse through a spook (as in patting or talking sweetly). She also says [Quote]"... if you teach your horse that spooking means he will get a time out to relax [as in the work you were just doing ceases so he can chill out] and then proceed to pat and talk softly, then why on earth wouldnt the horse spook?"

But the section I get the most benefit from is the part about the rider starting the spook. I'll quote again: "If you are always aware that your horse might spook and are afraid of what will happen if she does spook, then you are likely to be constantly looking out for anything that might cause your horse to spook. If you have even a nanosecond of worry, anxiety, or fear when you notice something like that, your spook probably precedes hers. She's a herd animal and when you're riding her you're all the herd she has. If you spook, she will spook. It takes a very mature, secure animal to carry a spooking rider and act outthe horse equivalent of "There, there, you're fine, nothings wrong". Most horses dont do this.

She goes on to talk about deep breathing exercises to help keep yourself from spooking.

Continuing to quote her passage: "Here's your specific exercise, so that you will have a plan and know precisely what you are going to do as soon as your mare becomes tense or nervous. Your strategy should be to keep her busy, allow yourself to sit up straight and breathe deeply, and offer neither a reward nor a punishment. Your not going to praise or condemn her tension and nervousness, you're not even going to let on you notice them; you're simply going to ask her to show you something else instead. (bold added).



That is pretty much Horseriding 101, but for some reason reading that just made something click in my cluttered brain! Hope you at least find it a little interesting.

[julia gulia]

Tootsie....what about a horse spooking because he genuinely believes that his life is in danger? I found it interesting that this didn't make her list of reasons a horse spooks.
Also wondered how you got on with the 'stand and look' technique with Bonfire.

[Tootsie4U]

Her book is organized in a Question and Answer type fashion. She took questions she has recieved over the years on her website (www.horse-sense.org) and in person and compiled them into this book. The information above was taken directly from a question someone asked that she titled "Spooking, Rider Fear, and Horse Learning".

Im sure she acknowledges genuine fear based spooks but she wasnt speaking in that context to the person who asked the question.

The stand and look technique has been somewhat beneficial because it at least has gotten him to stop running away. After several 'corrections' he'll stop and look at the door (and not try to turn or run away) but his anxiety level does not decrease. I have waited, while mounted, 32 minutes for him to exhale and relax. He never did and I had to get home to the baby. Im still working on it. :o

[julia gulia]

Must pick up that book. I do go on her web site quite a lot:)
Do you have anyone who could do the sit and look exercise with you? Someone who has a horse that is unafraid of the door? You'd have to buy them dinner and a couple of martinis of course:p but I wonder if Bonfire would react differently if he had another horse there...if the other horse and rider could stand closer to the door than you and Bonfire. I wonder if he would be likely to feel safer if another horse was on lookout so to speak. If the other horse is fine then he is fine?
Don't mind me...once my little brain kicks in...there is no stopping me:D

[Tots N Dots]

when I 1st got back into horses I had a lovely mare and she trained me very well! ;)
I had been riding and around horses for over 20 years befor I had a break after an accident, my confidence wasnt brilliant and everything I did she would up the anti, and OMG did I get tentative and quiet, I would tiptoe round her doing up tack with my fingertips. literally! everyone else she was fine with, it was just me, as I say after she trained me very well and I assume she spent a lot of time laughing to herself as I looked confused and puzzled.
She was the 1st ever horse that I had that wasnt a youngster or a rescue, It took me a while after she was rehomed to realise what had happened. i felt that as she wasnt a youngster or a rescue I had no "issues" to work on with her, so I failed to build trust between her and myself. I found myself doing the same thing with Pickle, realised what was happening, and I stopped. I know this isnt exactly relevent to your own issue, but thought it would illustrate how horses learn to "push our buttons"?

I try to use scarey things as training exersizes, but obviously in a controlled safe environment, I had our big shiny silver gate swing open the opposite way to the norm the other day before putting pickle out, I would normally have put it how it should be? but thought about it and wondered how Pickle would react, he was on the leadrope and he retreated and danced, I paid no attention to his behaviour, but I walked over and lent on the gate, he came to with a sort of "oh ok its fine then?"
so I suppose I acknowledge that he finds something scarey but reassure that everythings fine by my actions. he is more of a plant and stare horse than a run away type, but on a blind 90 degree bend in the middle of the road this can be worrying so I have learnt to move his feet.

I am sorry I havent really been following your progress with your horse till I read this thread, but I wondered how his groundwork is? I know people often feel they have less control in hand, but I often feel I have more, if I am wary about a situation (me rather than Pickle I will add) I would much sooner approach it in hand and build on the trust.

I am only bouncing ideas here but I also think it sounds that your horse may be a leader in the herd? from what you have said about him, It makes me think that he feels he should be there to protect the other horses? and maybe he feels he needs to protect you as a member of his herd when you are out together? sorry i know I sound as if I am humanising the situation, but its the only way I can think of explaining what I am thinking (and it is 2.15 am here) I could be way off but I would try insisting you get his attention rather than thinking that you may make him worse and just asking for his attention? I just dont quite know how you would go about it?

[julia gulia]

Do horses ever see as as trusted leaders to the point where they will do as we say because we have established that we are above them in the hierarchy? Or will they do as we say because we have trained then really well? Some may do as we ask because of fear. But the one thing I notice is that sometimes...a horses fear will "over ride" the training.
He can be terrified of something.......will respond to our requests but is still focused on what he finds terrifying. Does this not happen with people too? One could have the most loving, caring and trust worthy parents.....but if we have a deep rooted fear of something...even our parents...whom we trust more than anyone in this world can't get us to face our fears. So we may need therapy or a hypnotist and still may never overcome our fears. So...why, when it comes to our horses, do we doubt our leadership abilities? We wonder what we have done wrong...we must have done something wrong because heck...our horse is really terrified of something...and as hard as we try...he is unable to overcome it. Yes, we have to have a long , hard look at ourselves....are we inadvertently "feeding" our horses fear? is there a building block missing in our training system? But surely we can consider the possibility that sometimes...our horses will find it near impossible to ignore their fear...... they still respond to our cues....they will trot around a tree,...they will gallop up a hill....but they are still focused on the object of their fear. Gosh.....almost makes them sound human...doesn't it?:D

[Chilli]

Imo a horse will never stop spooking, there will always be times when it will be scared, an unexpected bang, someone/thing jumps out in front of it or behind it, you will never stop this, I know I jump from time to time when taken unawares (Unless its been turned into a mindless zombie or is more scared of the reprimand than the scary object)

But I do think you can get a horse to the point where even when it is scared/concerned about something(as opposed to a shock as above) the horse will try really hard not to be scared as long as you are not scared.(I also believe how hard the horse will try will vary horse by horse)

I personally don’t bother to try and understand why something works or doesn’t as you only end up with a human reason why it works looking at it from a humans point of view using human emotions\values to describe the actions. e.g. How does a car work ? The layman’s explanation will be nothing like a mechanics and you don’t really need to know how the car works just how to drive it.(That’s two people from the same species varying on something they both use, imagine how different the horse version of things would be to the best equine behaviourist on pretty much anything)

[Tots N Dots]

But surely we can consider the possibility that sometimes...our horses will find it near impossible to ignore their fear...... they still respond to our cues....they will trot around a tree,...they will gallop up a hill....but they are still focused on the object of their fear. Gosh.....almost makes them sound human...doesn't it?:D
But I do think animals are a lot like children sometimes? my 4 year old daughter has a very irrational fear of the dark, to the point she will become hysterical if there is a power cut and she wakes to find no night light, I could really force the issue and make her sleep in the dark? but whats the point of that I would find it cruel, so she has a night light.
When we do have a power cut and she wakes, becomes hysterical and wakes me, even if its still dark I expect her to calm down if I cuddle her to me? and she does, she burys her head in me and everything is ok till the power comes back on or I find a torch, because she trusts me.
surely to some point it is the same with a horse, I expect Pickle to calm down over something because he trusts me, I agree it isnt going to work in every situation but it will work to a point?
an incident recently was me stupidly not thinking to tie his stirrups under him while long lineing, he had a hissy fit and the stirrup landed over the saddle, he went nuts, my normal reaction would have been to panic, two long lines +wappy horse? not a good recipe with me included ;) but I have been practicing :cool: , I placed both lines in one hand, ignored the hissy fit, held my hand out and called him, he immediately stopped the hissy fit and walked over and put his nose in my hand, it was one of those moments, which for me took 12 years to get to :D
i am not saying that everything is as simple as that and it was probably a fluke and all horses are different, but unless I examine all the possibilities of why, where and how, personally I would never get anywhere?
(right going to submit without re-reading as I will think it doesnt make any sense ;) :o )

[julia gulia]

It makes perfect sense!!! :D I hear what you are saying and that is part of my point here.(which I didn't make very well):p ...The point being that you have figured out what works for your horse and you are happy with that. But we all have so many different ideas on how we should handle things. For example......you explained how you will comfort and hug your daughter when she is afraid....and you mentioned that surely it is the same with a horse....but some people beleive that if you did that with your horse..then you are re enforcing the spook...rewarding it and that you should act like the scary thing doesn't exist. Surely there is no one way to handle these things.....perhaps the one important thing we can do is to stay calm ourselves.....and then react to the horse in the way that works best for him...whether that be comforting him....putting him to work in an effort to engage his mind elsewhere....but can we really expect a horse to "switch off" his deepest fears? If his focus remains on the scary object...but he is responding to our cues...isn't that reasonable?

[Tots N Dots]

It makes perfect sense!!! :D I hear what you are saying and that is part of my point here.(which I didn't make very well):p ...The point being that you have figured out what works for your horse and you are happy with that. But we all have so many different ideas on how we should handle things. For example......you explained how you will comfort and hug your daughter when she is afraid....and you mentioned that surely it is the same with a horse....but some people beleive that if you did that with your horse..then you are re enforcing the spook...rewarding it and that you should act like the scary thing doesn't exist. Surely there is no one way to handle these things.....perhaps the one important thing we can do is to stay calm ourselves.....and then react to the horse in the way that works best for him...whether that be comforting him....putting him to work in an effort to engage his mind elsewhere....but can we really expect a horse to "switch off" his deepest fears? If his focus remains on the scary object...but he is responding to our cues...isn't that reasonable?
I think we are both talking about the same thing but in different ways :D
I have just thought, since I am viewing it that in a herd environment a scared horse will not run away from the herd leader but stick with the leader for safety, the fact I start most things in hand, if Pickle ran away from the "scarey" thing he would also have to leave me to do it? but if ridden and they "run away" they are taking their herd leader with them?
I do think there is a difference between reassurance and reinforcement, my daughter is quite clingy at times, my fault, over protective as prem and ill as a baby. but I do make the point in some situations of "placing her away from the cuddle" while she is still slightly upset, so as she doesnt think tears automatically mean cuddle time.
Pickle is definitely a left brain thinker which helps, he likes to solve problems and is funny to watch when he weighs up the odds.
I dont expect a horse to be able to switch off to his fears, but I do expect him to listen to reason, and accept help to work through them, if I have phrased that correctly?
I do like these threads like this, they make me analyse things even more than usual :D

[julia gulia]

"I have just thought, since I am viewing it that in a herd environment a scared horse will not run away from the herd leader but stick with the leader for safety"


But sometimes the lower ranking horses will see something they think is going to eat them and they panic and run around......the herd leader will look up from his patch of grass while they are all panicking....raise his eyes to the heavens , tell them all they're a bunch of babies for being afraid of a free roaming , white plastic bag... and then everyone will continue eating like nothing happened:p :p :p Maybe that's what happens when we are on our hosses and they see something scary...they let us know there is danger...we check it out and then tell them it is fine and to stop being a baby:D and they carry on with the job at hand but keep an eye out just in case we've gone senile in our old age:p

Agree that these threads are great...really gets us thinking...but sometimes overloads my tiny little brain:D

[Tootsie4U]

One of those sayings that sticks in my head is that a spooking horse is doing nothing more than trying to get his rider away from what he believes to be a dangerous situation.

Somehow, that helps.

What you've said here recently Julia has alot of weight, but unfortunately I can't reasonably go through life with any success if my horse wont even walk past a door. Part of me, especially since Im female and human, wants to be compassionate about this fear but my head is telling me that I have to look at this like he has a job to do and he just has to get on with it. Rips me in two...

[julia gulia]

One of those sayings that sticks in my head is that a spooking horse is doing nothing more than trying to get his rider away from what he believes to be a dangerous situation.

Somehow, that helps.

What you've said here recently Julia has alot of weight, but unfortunately I can't reasonably go through life with any success if my horse wont even walk past a door. Part of me, especially since Im female and human, wants to be compassionate about this fear but my head is telling me that I have to look at this like he has a job to do and he just has to get on with it. Rips me in two...

Of course you can't. That's how I deal with the scary things too.....because focusing on the job at hand also keeps me from getting scared. The above conversation was not regarding your particular situation ...it was about fear in general and how we all deal with it. I would also be gutted if I couldn't find a way to help my horse deal with something which terrifies him. You mentioned that the stand and look had worked to a degree ..I was hoping you would post an update on that . Am really curious to get your thoughts on it.

[Tots N Dots]

But sometimes the lower ranking horses will see something they think is going to eat them and they panic and run around......
yes but in this panic and running around, it is very very rare they do any damage to themselves, they still have a preservation instinct?
the mare I had that "trained me" used to jump out and "spook" infront of really huge lorries? (funny how the air brakes never worried her then isnt it ;) ) and to a point I am sure that she did it just so I would mess myself? really I do think that, she never did it with anyone else, I would be truely terrified of hacking out.
then we got to the stage of I would hear something big coming and there would be the sudden increase of breath and tightening of butt cheeks ;) and she would think "ha! got her!" so although I wasnt reinforcing the behaviour I was adding to it. Yet everyone else could hack her past them with no worries.
I think our problem was that I was a softly softly person, I would ask to be in charge, she would say "no!" and I would answer "ok" in a very meek way, she needed someone to insist on being in charge, and at that stage I hadnt the bottle to insist in case she upped the anti even more.
everyone (well nearly everyone) thought I was nuts to go and buy Pickle as an unbroken 2 year old, we have had our ups and downs but are getting there as a partnership, I can understand him (less blooming hormones for a start) and he humours me at times. He questions most things but does listen to my answers, strange for a male I know ;) but I do believe I have the relationship I want with my horse and I hope it continues as such, well it will till I mess up somewhere along the line :D
I suppose I am trying to say that I think the old saying of "you often get what you expect to get" is often true? horses often reinforce our behaviour aswell as the other way round?

and as you can tell I like my little brain to be overloaded ;) stops the bored housewife syndrome kicking in :D

[julia gulia]

yes but in this panic and running around, it is very very rare they do any damage to themselves, they still have a preservation instinct?
the mare I had that "trained me" used to jump out and "spook" infront of really huge lorries? (funny how the air brakes never worried her then isnt it ;) ) and to a point I am sure that she did it just so I would mess myself? really I do think that, she never did it with anyone else, I would be truely terrified of hacking out.
then we got to the stage of I would hear something big coming and there would be the sudden increase of breath and tightening of butt cheeks ;) and she would think "ha! got her!" so although I wasnt reinforcing the behaviour I was adding to it. Yet everyone else could hack her past them with no worries.
I think our problem was that I was a softly softly person, I would ask to be in charge, she would say "no!" and I would answer "ok" in a very meek way, she needed someone to insist on being in charge, and at that stage I hadnt the bottle to insist in case she upped the anti even more.
everyone (well nearly everyone) thought I was nuts to go and buy Pickle as an unbroken 2 year old, we have had our ups and downs but are getting there as a partnership, I can understand him (less blooming hormones for a start) and he humours me at times. He questions most things but does listen to my answers, strange for a male I know ;) but I do believe I have the relationship I want with my horse and I hope it continues as such, well it will till I mess up somewhere along the line :D
I suppose I am trying to say that I think the old saying of "you often get what you expect to get" is often true? horses often reinforce our behaviour aswell as the other way round?

and as you can tell I like my little brain to be overloaded ;) stops the bored housewife syndrome kicking in :D

Well said....I couldn't agree with you more:) Horses are way more in tune with us than we are with them......even when we think we aren't thinking about the potential spook...they know we are :D ...it's us we have to work on.....not the other way around....and we think we are the smarter species? :p

[teabiscuit]

T4U how is Bonfire with doors when you're stood by his side? Is he any less worried by them?

[Tots N Dots]

T4U dont know if it would be any help but Monty Roberts devised something for race horses that hated going in the stalls? dont know if you could look into it, it may help Bonfire with his problem? sorry I only remember a little bit about it. :)

edited to add, sorry I obviously hadn't read the post properly, I thought he had a problem going through them, not with what might come through them, will teach me not to speed read wont it ;)

[julia gulia]

One of the major fallacies permeating the hobbyist equine world is that one needs to lower the energy of a spooky or nappy horse so as to be able to control various situations. This leads to all kinds of actions such as reducing/eliminating feed, stronger bits, other mechanical devices, and a variety of maneuvers; all used with the intent of reducing displayed energy.

This need to reduce energy is taught to novices in an attempt to help them learn to moderate their horse to a level that they can manage. In other words, throttle the horse back to what the novice can handle. (Differentiated from raising the competency level of the rider to match the horse.)

But if you study the Masters (such as Parelli), you will discover that they do not advocate reducing energy; rather, they advocate channeling energy to some productive activity. We want an energetic horse. However, we want that energy channeled in the right direction. Attempting to prevent energy is counter-productive; whereas natural expenditure (e.g., running) is therapeutic (for many reasons).

This requires raising the competency of the rider.

Not "…join his drama" is apposite in the sense that you should not get emotionally wrapped around the axle (as is he) at whatever caught his attention. But matching his energy level and [i]channelling it so that he may expend his energy by doing something productive (and therapeutic) is the thing to do. As Parelli (and his teachers) said: Get busy.

But if you want to accommodate his energy level, then you'll have to get busy with some high-energy activities.

This is why as an example, in certain circumstances we will allow a fidgety horse to gallop to its heart's content (if we have the space to do so).
Allow the horse to manage his own energy. That's his job. Your job is to give him tasks and activities to perform so that he doesn't get into trouble.

Get him busy in some other direction, doing something so that the horse comes to the conclusion that "she's not even paying attention to this scary thing over here; she's off doing something else."

By you going somewhere else mentally (i.e., focusing on a different activity), you are challenging him mentally and emotionally: You are setting up a situation wherein if the horse wants to spook, it finds itself alone in the spook, because you're not reacting with it, but are focused on other things. Given the options to be alone (mentally/emotionally) or be with you, its herd instinct (and allelomimetic characteristic) will pressure it to the latter.

Doing this is how you can lead from the front emotionally so that your horse may follow you emotionally.
Might it be possible that by doing those same, safe methods repeatedly, that the horse has been positively reinforced in its behavior?

As in this hypothetical sequence: Horse spooks; rider breaks hindquarters over; horse stops; rider pets (or otherwise comforts) horse.

Do you think that the horse in this hypothetical sequence might come to the conclusion that spooking will result in a reward?

Food for thought,
Harry

I have read through this thread again (sorry..my mind is working overtime...I love this stuff:D ) But have a question about the above ...It makes a lot of sense to me..ignoring the object of the spook and redirecting our energy in an effort to engage our horses mind elsewhere. Harry? when you mention that by flexing and disengaging our horse...we may in fact be rewarding the horse for the spook and therefor inadvertently training him to react this way then isn't it also possible that when we ask him to run when he is scared and gets fidgety we will inadvertently be teaching him to run whenever his anxiety level is higher than usual? He already has that instinct to run in his makeup so...why would we want to encourage that? If he sees a bear and suggests to me that it is time to hit the highway at top speed....I'm all for that suggestion....but if he wants to run because he is fidgety....I'm going to wait until he thinks the idea has been rejected and then I'll suggest that we run. hmmmmmm note to self...must turn brain off from time to time:p

[FX5]

I have read this thread really thoroughly and have learnt such a lot from it. I thank all of you for the thought, experience and honesty you have put into the discussion.

I have 1 question though. What is operating with horses that [B]don't[B]spook? I am probably one of the most hopeless riders on this site. I have a very forward going mixed breed horse that never spooks at anything. He can face tractors, helicopters cars, trucks and aeroplanes, actively loves bubble wrap and plastic bags, will walk happily into water and boxes obediently - if unwillingly. I ride him out in a rope halter and bareback...gulp..and I have never felt unsafe. Now I know it is not me so what is it about him? Is he just Stoopid?:) Don't get me wrong...I am not complaining. Just wondering.

[Tootsie4U]

Teabiscuit, he's will still spook at things even with me by his side but he will walk up to and past the door without running away, but he still has anxiety about it.

**************************

Montana and Julia (and Harry if you're reading),

Im just a little reserved about this due to my ego being knocked a bit but this update will at least entertain you.

Tonight I rode Bonfire. I employed the entire concept of Jahiel's passages that I quoted above. It was extremely difficult for me. Not only did I have his regular door to deal with, but the weather was beautiful today and they had the HUGE side door open which looks out onto the road and side pastures. Horses were coming and going, occassionally peeking into the arena from the pasture that adjoins the ring. People at the barn where coming and going past this door on the outside to fetch their horses. And, people were strolling on the road since the day was so warm. So, as you can see, I had a big deal on my hands, at least from Bonfire's prospective. Remember that his fear stems from the unexpected that can come up to and through these doors at any given moment. Had alot of that going on tonight!

My plans for tonight's exercise included a lunge session in the beginning to test the waters and see how he was going to react. I also wanted to be able to send him into these scary areas without me on his back. Im much more confident on the ground.

The first five minutes or so he was spooking at the bigger open door. I tried to keep his attention but a few times he was able to slip a giant spook past me. I didnt react and just kept working him into that corner. After a good half hour I was seeing some significant relaxation, albeit not entire relaxation - especially around this big open door.

But I got on anyway, afterall he was showing more relaxation than he has in a long time. It is my practice to just sit for a moment in the saddle before moving off. In the first few moments of sitting there, his head shot up to look at the horse out the big door and a bird flew up into the rafters and made a really obnoxious noise. I felt myself get tense in response to his reaction so hopped off. He hadnt even taken a step yet so I didnt think this would be a reward for his hightened sense of alert. I shook off my nerves and got back on.

I spent at least a half hour at the walk. I kept him busy with all sorts of things but he would still glance out the big door. I asked him to bring his attention back to me. He did. The big difference that I tried to make was to concentrate on not giving into his spook and stay completely in the moment that came before (stick with what we were working on). If he looked out the door, I didnt. If he looked at anything, I made sure I didnt look at it. I kept watching through his ears and focusing on the work. I had to keep reminding myself to do all this, it wasnt easy! The other important thing is I made sure I did NOT change my rein contact. I must have done that in the past whenever he got a bit tense because that was also hard for me to do.

Then the biggy happened. Someone was on the other side of his regularly scary door tacking up. Normally that is all that he needed to know and he was off like a bolt of lightning. I noticed him looking and felt him suck back a few times but I pushed him on and NEVER looked at the door. I did not pull his head around either, merely just asked for his attention back. He gave it back. Then they opened the door and he got a bit firey. I kept my rein contact and pushed him on sticking with the counter bending I was asking for. About two strides later, his head was back and I was able to finish on about five to ten minutes of SOFT, WILLING, RELAXED work!

The lesson I learned is that Bonfire probably does have a genuine fear of doors and the unexpected on the other side. But I was feeding his fear. Tonight I hope I was able to show him Im up for the challenge of being his leader again - taken to a new level.

Montana, there's no way to prove this is your issue with Monty and even if it isnt, at least its a component that you can eliminate from the possibilities. To answer your initial question about raising energy to calm the horse - after tonight I'd say no. I guess I'd say that I want my horse to relax from a spook and increasing the energy would likely always have the opposite effect. I had a RI once tell me that a fast(er) moving horse is a fast(er) thinking horse. Tonight I learned to slow it all down and NOT react with increasing energy to the spook. If anything I need to stay neutral. It seems so simple in hindsight but the instinct for self preservation is a hard thing to kick!

[julia gulia]

Teabiscuit, he's will still spook at things even with me by his side but he will walk up to and past the door without running away, but he still has anxiety about it.

**************************

Montana and Julia (and Harry if you're reading),

Im just a little reserved about this due to my ego being knocked a bit but this update will at least entertain you.

Tonight I rode Bonfire. I employed the entire concept of Jahiel's passages that I quoted above. It was extremely difficult for me. Not only did I have his regular door to deal with, but the weather was beautiful today and they had the HUGE side door open which looks out onto the road and side pastures. Horses were coming and going, occassionally peeking into the arena from the pasture that adjoins the ring. People at the barn where coming and going past this door on the outside to fetch their horses. And, people were strolling on the road since the day was so warm. So, as you can see, I had a big deal on my hands, at least from Bonfire's prospective. Remember that his fear stems from the unexpected that can come up to and through these doors at any given moment. Had alot of that going on tonight!

My plans for tonight's exercise included a lunge session in the beginning to test the waters and see how he was going to react. I also wanted to be able to send him into these scary areas without me on his back. Im much more confident on the ground.

The first five minutes or so he was spooking at the bigger open door. I tried to keep his attention but a few times he was able to slip a giant spook past me. I didnt react and just kept working him into that corner. After a good half hour I was seeing some significant relaxation, albeit not entire relaxation - especially around this big open door.

But I got on anyway, afterall he was showing more relaxation than he has in a long time. It is my practice to just sit for a moment in the saddle before moving off. In the first few moments of sitting there, his head shot up to look at the horse out the big door and a bird flew up into the rafters and made a really obnoxious noise. I felt myself get tense in response to his reaction so hopped off. He hadnt even taken a step yet so I didnt think this would be a reward for his hightened sense of alert. I shook off my nerves and got back on.

I spent at least a half hour at the walk. I kept him busy with all sorts of things but he would still glance out the big door. I asked him to bring his attention back to me. He did. The big difference that I tried to make was to concentrate on not giving into his spook and stay completely in the moment that came before (stick with what we were working on). If he looked out the door, I didnt. If he looked at anything, I made sure I didnt look at it. I kept watching through his ears and focusing on the work. I had to keep reminding myself to do all this, it wasnt easy! The other important thing is I made sure I did NOT change my rein contact. I must have done that in the past whenever he got a bit tense because that was also hard for me to do.

Then the biggy happened. Someone was on the other side of his regularly scary door tacking up. Normally that is all that he needed to know and he was off like a bolt of lightning. I noticed him looking and felt him suck back a few times but I pushed him on and NEVER looked at the door. I did not pull his head around either, merely just asked for his attention back. He gave it back. Then they opened the door and he got a bit firey. I kept my rein contact and pushed him on sticking with the counter bending I was asking for. About two strides later, his head was back and I was able to finish on about five to ten minutes of SOFT, WILLING, RELAXED work!

The lesson I learned is that Bonfire probably does have a genuine fear of doors and the unexpected on the other side. But I was feeding his fear. Tonight I hope I was able to show him Im up for the challenge of being his leader again - taken to a new level.

Montana, there's no way to prove this is your issue with Monty and even if it isnt, at least its a component that you can eliminate from the possibilities. To answer your initial question about raising energy to calm the horse - after tonight I'd say no. I guess I'd say that I want my horse to relax from a spook and increasing the energy would likely always have the opposite effect. I had a RI once tell me that a fast(er) moving horse is a fast(er) thinking horse. Tonight I learned to slow it all down and NOT react with increasing energy to the spook. If anything I need to stay neutral. It seems so simple in hindsight but the instinct for self preservation is a hard thing to kick!

Brilliant....absolutely brilliant!!!! I am so happy to read this update.

..when I first read this thread about the concept of raising my own energy in order to calm a horse , I must admit that I found it interesting but couldn't see it working for me. I am a high energy person to begin with......I have to work on breathing and focusing on the job at hand.

"Here's your specific exercise, so that you will have a plan and know precisely what you are going to do as soon as your mare becomes tense or nervous. Your strategy should be to keep her busy, allow yourself to sit up straight and breathe deeply, and offer neither a reward nor a punishment. Your not going to praise or condemn her tension and nervousness, you're not even going to let on you notice them; you're simply going to ask her to show you something else instead. (bold added). "

You have really helped me here....I thank you for that. I am a great believer in the training techniques of John Lyons...they have always worked for me and the above quote from Jahiel is his philosophy too...ignore the negative and give the horse something to do that he can do well.......but you have reinforced the fact that...it all starts with us....doesn't it?
So....what made you think along these lines? What made you focus on your reactions and not on Bonfire's?

[Harry Hobbes]

...I love this stuff


Harry? when you mention that by flexing and disengaging our horse...we may in fact be rewarding the horse for the spook and therefor inadvertently training him to react this way...Okay, but just remember, you love this stuff.

I don't think the disengagement is the reward; I think the stopping, petting, and perhaps the community relaxing/commiserating with the alpha may very well be.

(Not to point fingers, but one horse I know of is VERY hooked on to his alpha; and thereby finely tuned to the alpha's demeanor - conscious and unconscious. Kinda makes one pause and think about what's communicated with one's subtle presentation.)
... then isn't it also possible that when we ask him to run when he is scared and gets fidgety we will inadvertently be teaching him to run whenever his anxiety level is higher than usual? He already has that instinct to run in his makeup so...why would we want to encourage that? If he sees a bear and suggests to me that it is time to hit the highway at top speed....I'm all for that suggestion....but if he wants to run because he is fidgety....I'm going to wait until he thinks the idea has been rejected and then I'll suggest that we run.Not me. I'll suggest it outright: "Let's run!" Because I want to take advantage of Mother Nature's programming.

We are working him through the flooding process to habituation, and if we do it enough, the horse becomes habitualized to fear in general.

Keep this thought in mind as you read the following: We are habitualizing him to his fear rather than the infinite number of things that could/would spook him. Saying this another way, we want him to learn to live with his fear; to become accustomed to operating in spite of his fear. He will have fears all his life; we cannot prevent this; but we can help him to learn to live with - deal with fear.

So how to?

Mother Nature has encoded the horse's primary response in the context of flooding (not progressive desensitization.) When the horse runs, it is going through the flooding process in its mind (although hopefully it's not physically restrained, such as with a "strong bit.") It is flooded with fear; hence the "Let's get out of here" switch trips. The symptoms of flooding are in its panicked run.

This is the horse's primary response: It runs.

It runs to clear its mind; that is, to gain time to think. (I.e., "go left brain." Levi, Pat Parelli first widely published the left/right brain idea in his original Natural-Horse-Man-Ship book; although I'm sure he got the idea elsewhere.)

But it also has a pressure-release valve (put there by Mom) for the flooding process; it goes off on or about one-quarter mile (assuming a real bear in not in hot pursuit - or its rider is not stoking the fear.)

When the relief valve trips, it will start thinking "left-brained" and find out that there's nothing there to fear and it will habituate to its fear, or if it's reinforced in its fear, it'll want to run more (or again.)

He's programmed to flood-and-recover quickly, not advance and retreat to see if it really is a bad bear.

That's why we want him to run; and we stay out of his way while he's running.

I'd like him to work through his problem (i.e., flood and recover) as Mom programmed him to do, and find out that he expended all that energy for nothing; the nasty ol' bear really wasn't there.

"I was fearful for nothing."

Ever told that to yourself? Do you know any humans (or other fauna) that do not have fears? Do they work out the object of each fear? Or do they learn to manage fear itself? (I.e., "habituate" to fear itself.)

But notice that during the running, I'm just a passenger: I'm not intervening, interfering, trying to find a "kinder, gentler way," or otherwise messing with Mother Nature. I'm just letting Mom run the show. (So far, Mom has done a much better job than any human that I'm aware of; notwithstanding Man's hubris about doing better than Mother Nature.)

But what do the masters do?

Have you ever watch Lyons deliberately attempt to repeatedly spook a horse during ground training by making loud, silly noises; and suddenly jumping at the horse. You can see this on his symposium tapes. (Yes, I'm aware that Lyons is very big on progressive desensitization to objects.)

Many of the other masters also do this deliberate spooking. The reason goes back to the inability of the horse to stay constantly spooked. It can't; but it learns from the experience. It habituates to its fear.

The training regimen of the masters for overcoming real, down-to-earth spooking (with Lyons and others) is very much some form of flooding. (Lyons' Calm-Down Cue merely allows safe flooding - there's no advance and retreat - it's "stand there and take it with your head down.") When we allow (or cause) the horse to run, we are allowing the flooding process to run its course. In fact, when we cause the horse stand there and face the problem, we are flooding. (Head down or not.)

Say what you will about how terrible flooding is (not you personally), but Mom has programmed the horse to recover very quickly (and effectively) with flooding. Horses flood themselves (as in every stampede) daily; they do little "advance-retreat" (at least on the perceived life-threatening issues.)

So here's the thesis question: If the human is training via some form of "progressive desensitization" or "flooding" and the horse is getting worse or not improving, what would be your conclusion?

Don't cha love it?
Harry

[Chilli]

Many of the other masters also do this deliberate spooking. The reason goes back to the inability of the horse to stay constantly spooked. It can't; but it learns from the experience. It habituates to its fear.

You seem to be only giving one reason for this, they may be doing it so the horse learns to trust the rider that there is nothing to fear, rather than learning there is nothing scary scary about that specific object/action (not necesarily easy to spot the differance as an observer) or are you suggesting getting a horse to not be scared of things in an arena translates to not being scared of the same/other things anywhere ?

I don’t buy that, although I do believe getting the horse to take it’s lead from the Rider (a parallel to the relationship with the alpha horse in a band could be drawn) will translate to any situation.

I agree that if you stick a horse in a paddock with low flying jets going over twice a day it will get used to them but it’s just desensitising to that stimulus or similar stimulus, you are fixing a problem each time it occurs which is great if you only have one fear/issue to deal with but personally don’t think it’s the best way as a general rule.

Say what you will about how terrible flooding is (not you personally), but Mom has programmed the horse to recover very quickly (and effectively) with flooding.

She’s also programmed the horse to take it’s lead from it’s leader hasn’t she ?

At the end of the day there are lots of options which will/may get results, which is the best...............who knows will probably depend on the horse

[Tots N Dots]

That's why we want him to run; and we stay out of his way while he's running.

this is all well and good, but my own personal bugbear is large traffic after the mare I had, how do I do this safely, I dont want to allow this flood and run behaviour, (which I agree with your thoughts on), on a busy road in traffic?
Pickle hadnt really seen traffic when he arrived with me, so I started by driving a 4x4 round the field, I can rev the engine.. hoot the horn.... drive right up to him, he just sticks his head in my window and eats the headrests inside :p then I did it with a very rattley trailer attatched. all fine. Then out on the roads in hand. which is where I start to have issues.
how do I do this with larger vehicles?
but then I am having to remember that so far traffic is my issue not his!
but I dont want to transfere my issue to him ;)

[Tootsie4U]

I have a very forward going mixed breed horse that never spooks at anything. Is he just Stoopid?:)

No, you're lucky!

No one has replied, so I'll give it a try.

Whether it be by his nature or from previous handling and training, your horse became a 'brave' horse. This term is specific - Craig Cameron always talks about making a 'brave' horse through training.

I'd also guess that since you trust him, he trusts you. You wouldnt believe how important and paramount that is in the horse-human relationship. (And how difficult it is for some of us, ahem :o )

[Tootsie4U]

So....what made you think along these lines? What made you focus on your reactions and not on Bonfire's?

Our 5 year history.

And maybe I suspected all along that I needed to get brave so he could be brave.

But even though I had a Certified trainer tell me that this was a leadership problem on the Lyons board, I truly didnt believe it. Bonfire does treat me like his alpha. But that doesnt mean I dont need to improve. I guess reading Jahiel's book brought it all together.

I even contacted a professional trainer about this just a few days ago. I felt I was over my head. I was ready to pass the buck (and sorta give up) and *that* is probably the biggest contributor to really buckling down and getting this fixed. Im not the sort to give up and unfortunately I have a strong competitive drive. With a little bit of faith in my horse and abilities, there hasnt been anything in the 5 year long history my horse and I couldnt get over. I just needed to step up to the plate (yet again). After this is fixed (and it will take time) I have one more phobia to conquer. Hacking out. But I hope this will be the building block to accomplishing that task too. *a really big sigh* :D

[KateWooten]

But even though I had a Certified trainer tell me that this was a leadership problem on the Lyons board

You've got to watch them certs .... you would not believe what one of them was telling me to do with my youngster. Something is not right with the JL cert process.. I'd stay well away if I were you.

[Joyscarer]

I keep thinking about this thread and it occured to me that I use the technique of raising my energy on my 4 year old daughter. If she starts winding up then I get all enthusiastic about an activity that channels her exuberence.

I just thought I'd add this because it seems like many of my parenting techniques come from how I treat my animals and they work well for both :p

[julia gulia]

You've got to watch them certs .... you would not believe what one of them was telling me to do with my youngster. Something is not right with the JL cert process.. I'd stay well away if I were you.

I beleive there are bad apples in every walk of life...if something doesn't feel right...it usually isn't . If you felt the advice you were given was appalling then you should let the J.L. team know.
I found a great J.L. certified trainer In New York...but even though he was J.L. certified..he didn't do everything by the J.L. book..he had found other techniques that worked better for him. I do the same thing...little bit of this and little bit of that . Two people can have a degree in the same subject....but one may excel because they have a natural talent for it....and the other may suck big time because...well.....they just don't have a knack for it:D

[Tootsie4U]

Woo, not to make this go OT, but I have found that those on the Lyons board (NOT Lyons himself) can be quite narrow minded with tunnel vision. Its not a board I frequent too often but when Im stuck in a rut like I just was/am - I'll take any help I can get :D

[KateWooten]

(in danger of getting way OT ...) she was a BIG name, very vocal cert, on the board a whole lot... just out of cert school with a hotline to god, and the almighty authority on all things JL. Very well supported in the JL house. Any one of you here would have said "3 yr old ? rearing ? are you sure this little horse is physically up to the work you are asking from her under saddle ?". The advice '200 inside turns EVERY SESSION ... count them religiously" in a roundpen wouldn't have been on anyone's lips here. And rightly so. Where's the softness gone .. something is not right in the JL house.

[Harry Hobbes]

...are you suggesting getting a horse to not be scared of things in an arena translates to not being scared of the same/other things anywhere ?I say again:
We are habitualizing him to his fear rather than the infinite number of things that could/would spook him. Saying this another way, we want him to learn to live with his fear; to become accustomed to operating in spite of his fear. He will have fears all his life; we cannot prevent this; but we can help him to learn to live with - deal with fear.
...this is all well and good, but my own personal bugbear is large traffic after the mare I had, how do I do this safely, I dont want to allow this flood and run behaviour, (which I agree with your thoughts on), on a busy road in traffic?
Yep. Just like relieving flatulence. The better part of valor requires that one pick the time and place.

Best regards,
Harry

[teabiscuit]

Yep. Just like relieving flatulence. The better part of valor requires that one pick the time and place
you just made me spit pepsi all over my computer!
I shall always think of you as Falstaff in that Henry play.

i have a real problem with the whole herd leader theory, so have kept away from the thread.
but i like it.
I like Julia's approach of teaching the horse to handle its fear calmly, by standing until its figured out it isn't going to die...which to me is similar to you're approach Harry of teaching fear handling in the safe confines of a pen

I like what i found out with Thug, that he liked me to be aggressive to the monsters, it made him feel supported

I really liked what someone said about the fleeing instinct and flooding switching off - i have a horse that once follded stays flooded, unlike any other horse who will switch the flooding off after a time.

[Chilli]

I say again:

We are habitualizing him to his fear rather than the infinite number of things that could/would spook him. Saying this another way, we want him to learn to live with his fear; to become accustomed to operating in spite of his fear. He will have fears all his life; we cannot prevent this; but we can help him to learn to live with - deal with fear.



So how exactly do you “know” that is what you are doing as opposed to teaching the horse it can trust its rider (leader) to make the call if it’s scary/dangerous or not as occurs in nature?

If the horse habitualised to fear they would be extinct, habitualise to a specific stimulus or learn to leave the decision as to if it’s dangerous/scary or not to there leader I can understand but habitualise to fear in general, how can they and not end up extinct ?

A pray animal that habitualised to fear is a dead one isn’t it ?

[Tootsie4U]

A pray animal that habitualised to fear is a dead one isn’t it ?

Then how do you ever saddle a horse? Ask it to lift its feet for cleaning? Live in a confined stall? I can go on...

Each of these involved asking the horse to override his natural instinct. Asking him to accept this fear is just another, more advanced, level of the same training.



And Harry, now come on, you could have thought of a better analogy than that :D:D:D:D

[Chilli]

Then how do you ever saddle a horse? Ask it to lift its feet for cleaning? Live in a confined stall? I can go on...

Each of these involved asking the horse to override his natural instinct. Asking him to accept this fear is just another, more advanced, level of the same training.



And Harry, now come on, you could have thought of a better analogy than that :D:D:D:D

Exactly you don't get a horse to let you pick up its feet and it suddenly lets you chuck a saddle on, confine it in a stall etc etc.

Your working on each thing one at a time desensitising too one stimulus at a time, you might build up a relationship after several stimuli have been covered where the horse decides he can let you decide if the stimulus is dangerous/scary thats not the same as.

Horse see's a dog running towards it and runs, nothing happens horse decides an animal running towards it is nothing to be scared about, horse see's a mountain lion/preditor running at it, horse not scaed of animals running at it mountain lion has lunch.

If the horse doesn't habitualised to fear he will run as the thing running towards him is different to the last thing.

[Tootsie4U]

Im confused Chili. Are you saying its presumptious (wrong) of us to expect this from our horses? That somehow in habitualizing a horse to its fear and going against its instinct is somehow revoking its right to be a horse?

Horses aren't dumb static animals incapable of a certain level of reasonable thought. I strongly think my horse knows the difference between precieved threats such as a dog and a mountain lion.

Im just trying to understand where you're coming from...

[Chilli]

I am saying that i belive you can habitualise/desensitise one thing at a time, you can't get a horse not to be scared(or manage its fear) of balls/cows/motorbikes and expect that to translate to chickens or goats or something else that it's never seen before, thats what Harry appears to be saying

"We are habitualizing him to his fear rather than the infinite number of things that could/would spook him"

If this was part of a horses natural makeup as a prey animal they would end up dead.

But i do belive a horse can learn to hand over the decision process as to if something is scary/dangers as horses do in bands.

I suppose what i'm saying is don't think you are habitualizing a horse to its fear, i belive the horse is handing over the decision making to you after you have proved to be reliable and can take it back if your not, which is why some people get an unspooky horse but when they ride it, it becomes spook and vice versa.

The process and end result are similar/the same but whats actually going on is different.

[Tootsie4U]

Ah, ok, I understand a bit better now.

So, whats your opinion on Lyons "spook in place"? In case you haven't heard of it, John Lyons teaches it as an actual training step. Something specific. No matter what the stimuli, he teaches his horses and his client's horses that if it spooks, it essentially doesn't move its feet. Thats even farther from the automatic response Harry suggests (to let the horse run till its head is cleared). He (Lyons) is quite successful with the technique too - and many of his followers recognize the exercise as a standard in horse training.

The bottom line that Lyons is teaching the horse is to completely change the automatic response. He's reprogramming the horse that whenever it spooks, and no matter why it spooks, its supposed to spook in place.

And to quote you: "i belive the horse is handing over the decision making to you after you have proved to be reliable and can take it back if your not" - MOST definately agree there and that is the determining factor in what to do with a spooky horse.

Nice discussion this is turning into!

[Tots N Dots]

thinking about it, I think you can habitualise a horse to fear? I know as humans we are primarily left brain thinkers, as a child I was petrified of the dark, as my daughter is which is probably why I dont push things with her, I was pushed and know how horrid it felt, but as I have got older I am still scared of the dark but realise it is an irrational fear, so have learnt to deal with this fear and lower my responses to it? I do think that it bepends a lot on the individual horse though.

Pickle is a very easy horse to deal with, as long as I can control my "level" of calmness, he controls his, many things I would expect a horse to be spooky of Pickle isnt, couple of examples, I was dealing with another horse that was ill, I wanted Pickle to leave us alone and flapped a red plastic carrier bag in his face, he actually took it off me with his mouth and shook it back at me, another instance was that I introduced a pilates ball to him, I kicked it and the wind caught it and it bounced off Pickles side, we have also walked up to a gentleman in a wheelchair flapping a big tarpaulin, he didnt bat an eye at any of these things, none of which I had shown him before? I would have expected a different reaction from him on all three accounts, but each time I was well within my comfort zone so he didnt move out of his.

I know I analyse things far too much for my own good, I often see problems before they arise, which often makes problems where there wasnt one, I think its something to do with having had an accident and that I feel the need to be in control of situations when I am with a horse, if I am not in control of the situation I start to panic, its this I have been needing to work on, but by placing Pickle in these situations and him being fine, I get braver and able to tackle bigger things, I think in our case its as much me being able to place my trust in him, aswell as him placing his trust in me.

[teabiscuit]

would appreciate your thoughts on this spooking incident

my TB Thug is a hyper alert boy, ready to see monsters anywhere

on one side of the road is a bright white large rock monster, on the other a sign on a wire waving about on the wind.

equally scared of both, he shies one way, then the other and so on until i'm just about to go out the front door

he slams the brakes on and stands stock still until i regain my balance and once he's sure i'm ok, he walks on really really steadily, so steady it was really amazing

he was looking after me i have no doubt... and he was capable of thinking himself out of the spook to do it
if i am his herd leader, you say he would not spook in the first place
if i am his subordinate, why would he bother to look out for me?


i find the whole herd leader and spooking thing far too simplistic

[Chilli]

thinking about it, I think you can habitualise a horse to fear? I know as humans we are primarily left brain thinkers, as a child I was petrified of the dark, as my daughter is which is probably why I dont push things with her, I was pushed and know how horrid it felt, but as I have got older I am still scared of the dark but realise it is an irrational fear, so have learnt to deal with this fear and lower my responses to it? I do think that it bepends a lot on the individual horse though.

In your example if you were habitualised to fear by managing your fear of the dark it would mean that if someone jumped out in front of you pointing a gun you wouldn’t be scared you would manage your shock/fear of being shot in the same way you manage your fear of the dark (I very much doubt this is the case).

Pickle is a very easy horse to deal with, as long as I can control my "level" of calmness, he controls his, many things I would expect a horse to be spooky of Pickle isnt, couple of examples, I was dealing with another horse that was ill, I wanted Pickle to leave us alone and flapped a red plastic carrier bag in his face, he actually took it off me with his mouth and shook it back at me, another instance was that I introduced a pilates ball to him, I kicked it and the wind caught it and it bounced off Pickles side, we have also walked up to a gentleman in a wheelchair flapping a big tarpaulin, he didnt bat an eye at any of these things, none of which I had shown him before? I would have expected a different reaction from him on all three accounts, but each time I was well within my comfort zone so he didnt move out of his.



Just because you’re the owner it doesn’t mean your in charge all the time, if your scared and the h