What bit?

[Marmite]

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[coss]

kimblewick? different action to a pelham, hackamore - again different action or, lots of shoulder in, leg yields while hacking to attempt to occupy the horse's mind.

[Laura+Phantom]

Pelham with a different mouthpiece, french link? Softer bit with a different noseband? Um...you could try a dutch gag but with 2 reins, not one, as everyone seems to do :)

ETA: he might not like the curb chain, hence the throwing the head up, has she tried a leather curb chain or a rubber chain guard? Just a thought...

[BeachRiding]

I would try a softer bit. It could be that he dislikes the action of the pelham. I had my horse in a twisted snaffle and could hardly control him, but as soon as I put him back in a simple snaffle he's been an angel!

[puzzles]

may i add that dutch gags in aprticular encourage horses toraise their heads?
kimblewicks and pelhams encourage horses to become deeper.
i think what you need is some good quality schooling sessions - bits and gadgets don't make horses and hoiurs of schooling can be ruined in a few minutes of the wrong gear.

no bit will stop your horse running off, it will just give you a bit mor control - you have to SOLVE this problem, not COVER it up (bits don't treat the problem, they treat the symptoms).
have your pony's back, teeth and tack all checked for fit and condition before changing anything; and rather than go stronger (he is already in a strong bit, for all the good it does :-( ) go for something lighter and morecomfortable - a hanging baucher cheek will help him to break at the poll and listen to you, and a D-ring or full cheek will help your steering.
try to find out why your pony is behaving the way he is, and don't hang onto his mouth (this will only make him run away from the contact) - instead, use short pulls, release and then pull, setting your other hand into his neck and drawing him back with the other in emergancies.
i also you having some lessons to make you more effective as a rider and him more responsive to you.

good luck - i know what it's like to be bolted with, and know that consistance, patience and some quality schooling (half an hour of down-to-earth work, on one area (e.g. canter transitions or your trot) is better than an hours aimless drill.
be careful that you horse is not running away from a harsh bit, hands, nosevand AND martingale - it's enough i think to make any horse mad!
:-)

so you can try the bits i have recommended, and i would also avoid jointed bits (double-jointed should be fine) as these pinch and cause a fair bit of discomfort in the mouth.
a comfortable, relaxed horse listens to his rider willingly, so try to relax your horse using your seat, voice and own state of mind to your advantage in tricky situations.
avoid fast work in the same places, and if you are with other horses go in single file to prevent racing, until your horse improves.

with changes in comfort and with you more effective and sympathetic, i'm sure he will improve given CONSISTANCE, PATIENCE AND UNDERSTANDING.

[Fizz]

jay is fab to school in a french link but needs a stronger bit while hacking as he takes hold sometimes.
he goes best in a mullen mouth pelham as thats what he was hunted in,dutch gags made no difference at all to him.
how about a waterford?

[Laura+Phantom]

Waterfords are good for horses who lean on the bit and take hold, they aren't as severe as some people believe, worth a try if he does that sort of thing.

[Marmite]

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[coss]

waterfords are a loads of links joined together and each link is like a ball, they are thought of as harsh by some and kind by others. i think they just provide a lot of mobility in the mouth so nothing for the horse to set against and in some cases something to distract them.

[Laura+Phantom]

Laura + Phantom, does it have to be specifically made as a chain guard or whatever, or can you improvise and make one yourself? Because thats definately worth a try.

No i'm sure you could improvise with something, even wrapping it in duct tape or something is worth a go...some horses just don't like the severity of the metal chain on their chin.

Good luck!

[chev]

Waterfords are good for horses who lean on the bit and take hold, they aren't as severe as some people believe, worth a try if he does that sort of thing.

Yes they are.

They act on all parts of the mouth (bars, tongue etc) and give no leave for the horse to maintain a steady contact or work down in the bridle. They can cause real discomfort (especially when bending, when pressure on one rein causes the balls to drag across the mouth) and when a strong contact is taken up, they hurt.

As a remedial bit they have their uses; I used one on and off with gelfy and it worked. But to say they are not harsh is incorrect; they can be really nasty bits. Even with kind hands, lots of horses learn to back off the bit and work behind it (albeit with nose tucked in, and therefore an illusion of 'outline' and 'accepting the bit'). Very few work on the bit properly in a waterford.

If a horse needs something to remind him that the rider is in control, a waterford will do it. But do be aware that they do it because they are severe bits; there isn't an awful lot of difference between waterfords and 'bike-chain' bits, (that many people who say watefords are kind also denounce as horrendous), save that teh waterford has smooth rounded links.

Long-term, they are not recommended; to solve short-term issues, they can be very useful.

Am increasingly :eek: at the number of people saying a waterford is kind. It is not.

Better than a waterford would be something like a kineton noseband; that would only come into play when horse plays up. The waterford is acting on a horse from the minute you take up the reins. My preference would be to look at using something that would only act on the horse when the horse acts up..

[Laura+Phantom]

I would never describe a waterford as kind, and I agree it is to be used short-term.

I would use it as a last resort, and as would prefer to try other things first, as I said.


Just wanted to clear that up.

[Marmite]

Oh god, not a waterford then :eek: Whats a Kineton noseband? I sound really novicy now :o Not very well up on tack and bits as most of the horses I have ever ridden were schooled out of problems using snaffles and not much else

[puzzles]

a kineton noseband (not dressage legal) is used for horses who are very strong; they are pretty strong and shouldn't be taken lightly.
try googling them (images) or checking out a good book! :-) - they look a bit like a drop noseband, being in front of the bit and working on the lower part of the nose.
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the horses i learnt to ride on - rearing, bolting, napping, bucking, strong and unresponsive things they were most of the time - were ridden in simple snaffles and cavesons without a 'gadget' in a 2-mile radius.
where have those days gone? (though i'm not really old enough to say that!)

[chev]

The Kineton (when fitted properly) can be really useful on strong horses or those that chuck their heads and pull. It transfers pressure from the mouth to the nose, so the result is an almost hackamore action without the leverage. The disadvantage of strong bits is that lots of horses who pull will pull more in a stronger bit because they're more uncomfortable. Using a Kineton (which should be used with a snaffle) means that if the horse pulls, the pressure on the bit is transferred away from the sensitive bars and onto his nose. The noseband should be fitted up on the nasal bone, so it doesn't press on the soft part of the nose, so it's action, although not actually severe, is often enough to dissuade a puller. In effect, the horse is pulling against himself instead of teh rider.

There are some dodgy versions of the Kineton around with metal reinforced nosepieces but I wouldn't go there.

People tend to assume it's nasty because it works; but it works by getting around the bit issue with horses that pull. We used them at the school years and years ago - they seem to have fallen out of favour now but they can be very useful and effective without having to step up the metalwork in the horse's mouth. :)

Interesting piece on them here (http://www.pointernet.pds.hu/lovaglas/tudas/publication/felszereles/20061205181309635000000115.html) :)

[Marmite]

I like the sound of this, Also, very interesting article chev, thanks for that :)

Thanks again all for the replies.

[puzzles]

no problem, i hope that whatever you choose goes well
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