The long leg - too long!?

[KarinUS]

I finally got a few minutes to myself and was rereading one of my favorites - Mary Wanless (Ride with your Mind Essentials) and was stunned to read her suggestions in regards to stirrup length and classical position.
According to her most riders adjust their stirrups too long!
:eek: Funny thing is the last time I had a lesson my RI told me to shorten them a hole. I figured she was just trying to make it easy and quickly lengthened them again after the lesson. :o I guess she could be right though: In my pursuit of the long leg I lost track of the purpose of this: stability.
Instead of letting function dictate form I was focusing on fashion and what I thought things *should* look like.
Mary Wanless mentions the Spanish Riding School so of course I had to Image Google it. ;) They ride with more of an angle as well.
http://www.knet.co.za/lipizzaner/images/lipi1.jpg

Anyway I thought that was interesting. Any thoughts? Comments?
Wish I could post the page in Mary's book but I am sure that would be copy right infringement...

[Scarlett 001]

One of my bibles of classical dressage is the book by the former Director of the Spanish Riding School, Podhajsky.

He states that "a vertical line drawn from the shoulders of the rider to the ground should touch his heel, and a vertical line from the knee should touch his toes."

So let's assume you get the shoulder/heel alignment correct. Then this would imply if the knee is too far forward, then the alignment of knee/toe would be incorrect. Alternatively, if the leg is too straight, then the knee might fall behind the toe (at least I think so), so this would be pushing the balance in the lower leg all off. Seems the trick is to get that knee and toe aligned (once the shoulder and heel is aligned)??? I can see how that would be the most stable position.

Now I need to get a good side view photo of me in my saddle. The most recent picture I posted on your other thread of me in my saddle, is slightly oblique so it can be misleading. Going to go take a look at my archives and see if I can find a suitable picture to assess my position! :D

[julia gulia]

I think the more you read about how you should look the more confused you will be.
The correct position for me is the one which enables me to feel safe and secure on any hoss:D I won't be winning any 'pretty rider' contests but I can stay on a hoss that bucks, rears or spins (well...most of the time:p ) I really do believe that our own conformation has to come into consideration here. I do my very best to obtain a good position when riding but at the end of the day? If the horse I am riding is relaxed and comfortable and I am relaxed and comfortable...then life is good. In the pictures I have seen of you riding...you look perfectly fine........Here is something I find amusing.....in lots of posts here I always see people critique pictures and they will say...." your toes are pointing out...they should be straight" However , there is a hugely successful and accomplished trainer here who will blast you for not having your toes out and calves on the horse. You just can't win...can you?:p

[KarinUS]

Ah, Julia ... the voice of reason. :D

And Scarlett, lots of interesting thoughts as well!

Well... I guess I have to ride again tomorrow to see which one I like better. ;)

[laura jeanne]

After riding in a western saddle with long stirrups for a year, my new RI has them back at ankle length. I have to say that it doesn't feel as awkward as it used to. But I've only had 2 lessons in the saddle so far. You look perfectly fine to me in your pictures.

[Mehitabel]

yep - being able to stay secure and effective with a longer leg comes with time and practice. my stirrups have gone up 2 holes since i stopped working full time at the yard - i'm no longer riding 5 days a week and have lost the stability with the stirrups at the length they used to be. when someone online toold me to whack them up a bit, i stopped tipping forward, the heels stayed down and i regained my old stability.

[parsharainbow]

In my pursuit of the long leg I lost track of the purpose of this: stability.


thats exactly what happens to me, I've gone back up a hole on mine :o My instructor can't work me out, if I ride without stirrups I ride better and my lower leg is stable, if I ride with stirrups I seem to dig my knees in and destabalise my lower leg :confused: I have no idea why I do this as It doesn't make me feel more secure, I'm imagining its habit, maybe I should spend the summer without stirrups and get out of the habit totally ;)

[chev]

parsharainbow - same kind of thing happens to me. With stirrups, I start to close my hip, and draw my legs up. Lower leg becomes unstable and I occasionally lose stirrups.

Without stirrups, my leg lengthens, lower leg comes back to where it should be and becomes stable again, and my seat deepens.

Instructor reckons that it happens because with stirrups I put too much weight on the stirrup itself, instead of dropping the weight down through my heel. Net result is that I'm pushing myself up on the irons.

Very frustrating!

[parsharainbow]

I'm glad I'm not the only one :o

I think thats exactly what I'm doing too - not putting enough weight through my heel and closing my hip!! how annoying especially when I can't seem to stop myself for more than five minutes! As soon as I start concentrating on something else I go back to the clenched knee position :o

I think my problem with losing stirrups is when I clench with my knee, my lower leg becomes unstable and pivots, then combined with the fact I haven't got enough weight through my heel because of knee position, the stirrup moves and voila........ no stirrup. So I know whats causing it :o I just dont seem to be able to do anything about it, so I've shortened them by one hole which seems to be working at the moment but its not really dealing with the cause is it? I'm just cheating my way round it :o

[KarinUS]

yep - being able to stay secure and effective with a longer leg comes with time and practice. my stirrups have gone up 2 holes since i stopped working full time at the yard - i'm no longer riding 5 days a week and have lost the stability with the stirrups at the length they used to be. when someone online toold me to whack them up a bit, i stopped tipping forward, the heels stayed down and i regained my old stability.

Wow, thanks guys. It is so reassuring to hear things like this from the more experienced riders. I think I am going to take my stirrups up a bit on each saddle. I am sure DJ and Bixby would rather I look a little less 'advanced' but quit bugging them with my lower leg bobbling about. ;) :D

[parsharainbow]

I wonder how many others have the same problem :confused: Its interesting though :)

[Scarlett 001]

Funny, I lowered my stirrups and found I lost them less. :rolleyes: My leg moves around about the same with them a bit longer or shorter (an issue I am working on via ridden lunge lessons). My seat definitely is better with them longer, and given that my custom saddle was designed for a proper dressage position (relative position of seat/knee blocks etc.), I find I am better off with a longer leg position overall. But I just need to continue with the lunge lessons (once Skeeter is all better again). Karin, I still suggest that you need to give up control and head onto that lunge line!!! ;) Within such a short time you can learn to stabilize that lower leg if you are on the lunge with *nothing* else to focus on but position! (or perhaps no-stirrup work as an alternative) :D And you then avoid the closing of the hip and the other stuff that might happen with shortening the stirrups (like discussed in above responses).

Ridden lunge work is now my recommended remedy for all position problems after what it did for me in just 3 lessons!!! :p Of course, with Skeeter being lame and no riding for nearly a month, it will be back to square one again when I start riding...

When my horse is lame, I think way too much about the theory of riding - and now I just want/need to get out there and do it!!! Patience is a virtue.

[Skyhuntress]

In dressage competitions, you'll notice that many dressage riders ride with their heels UP instead of DOWN. This isn't correct. But in the pursuit of a "long leg", their actual position gets compromised. Because when you think about it, if you turn your heels up, you weight is no longer braced down and instead of having a steady lower leg, chances are that you're leg is actually made UNSTEADY because you're trying to keep your weight down and keep your stirrup.

I think that many dressage coaches actually have their students start out with too long of stirrups. Really, to start with, they should almost be as short as your jumping stirrups, because it teaches you to balance your weight evenly. And then, eventually, you want to lower them, but only so much as you can comfortably keep weight in them.

And whenyou take time off from riding, put them back up again...with my 4 weeks off due to pneumonia, my stirrups went up 2 holes :rolleyes: but at least I know that my leg is secure and not flopping around

[Scarlett 001]

with too long of stirrups. Really, to start with, they should almost be as short as your jumping stirrups, because it teaches you to balance your weight evenly.

Guess the ability to go to jumping length (or to even shorten to any notable degree) depends on the saddle. With the knee blocks on my saddle, my legs would be thrown out of any reasonable position - the blocks are rather large and my knee would be forced into a really open, sticking-out position as they went up the side of the knee block. This would mess up the thigh being able to rest on the saddle lightly too as it would be forced into a poor position.

If we can all attain a good position with no-stirrup work, then it is so strange how the presence of a stirrup messes things up. To me it must mean many of us are fundamentally using the stirrups wrong (was it Chev who said something about this in her reply). I remember when I got my new saddle how much stretching my hips underwent, as they finally were forced to open, relax and my legs hung correctly. It hurt for while, but once the hips stretched out properly it made a world of difference.

[KarinUS]

And whenyou take time off from riding, put them back up again...with my 4 weeks off due to pneumonia, my stirrups went up 2 holes :rolleyes: but at least I know that my leg is secure and not flopping around

You know I think that's exactly the case with me. I've been off for so long due to baby that the shorter stirrups will work better for me right now.


Scarlett, I am sure a lunge lesson would be beneficial and it's great to hear that you are doing so well. You also have so much more practice right now than I have. I know how much better I felt once I shortened the stirrups and how much more stable my lower leg became (by my own observation as well as my RI's) and so it only makes sense to me to stick with that. In the end I pay my instructor because I trust her judgment so I probably should follow her advice, right? ;)
I am feeling much more confident in what path I am taking after reading all the good responses! It's great to hear that it is something many riders encounter regardless of how long they have been riding. :)

[Scarlett 001]

Sure, stick with what you and RI find is working well - sorry if I got excited about lunge work (hey, we all have our topics that excite us on NR). My lower leg used to wobble and I lost stirrups with the stirrup length I was at (which was medium-long for me - not long according to advanced dressage people), and then just 2-3 lunge lessons later it was almost stable at the same stirrup length (shortening it might have also solved the problem from reading this post). I was able to keep the nice open hips and relaxed upper thigh position you can get (similar to stirrup-less work), while helping to eliminate the core problem of lower leg instability by focussing on my core and its involvement in my riding.

Anyhow, I will gracefully sneak away now, but I wanted to explain better... ;) :)

[KarinUS]

LOL. I changed my mind about my initial comment and edited it about the same time you posted your explanation (1.32pm). I agree with you. :) If you reread my response to the lunge lesson response has changed. ;)
What I meant with my initial comment was just that my original post was about how surprising I found it that longer may not be better and more related to stirrup length. That's all. Please stick around. I wanted to get as many differing views on this as possible so that I could better get my head around it. :D

[CanadianRider]

Interesting discussion, I remember reading something interesting in one of my books on this topic. I'll take a look at my little library tonight and see if I can find it.

[Scarlett 001]

No worries Karin, I should now edit my post quoting your now non-existent comment. ;)

Remember that web link you sent me about lower leg stability just before I ventured into my lunge lessons - well that article is where a lot of my new philosophy on the core position and its effect on the leg comes from.

You can't get rid of me on this post that easily. This is very interesting and we are working on very similar things right now.

[chev]

Guess the ability to go to jumping length (or to even shorten to any notable degree) depends on the saddle. With the knee blocks on my saddle, my legs would be thrown out of any reasonable position - the blocks are rather large and my knee would be forced into a really open, sticking-out position as they went up the side of the knee block. This would mess up the thigh being able to rest on the saddle lightly too as it would be forced into a poor position.

If we can all attain a good position with no-stirrup work, then it is so strange how the presence of a stirrup messes things up. To me it must mean many of us are fundamentally using the stirrups wrong (was it Chev who said something about this in her reply). I remember when I got my new saddle how much stretching my hips underwent, as they finally were forced to open, relax and my legs hung correctly. It hurt for while, but once the hips stretched out properly it made a world of difference.

The saddle certainly has a real bearing on it.

One thing that really helped me was taking my stirrups up a hole. I have always appeared to ride long because I have freakishly long legs in relation to my height (I m 5'4", just! and have a 31" inside leg) so even taking them up one hole makes a big difference to me.

Shortening stirrups means I can both let my weight down through my heels *and* use the iron - I know resting weight on the iron is not correct, but while it seems to be something I can't help, RI feels it's pointless tryng not to. So we do the weight-down-through-heels thing at the same time as resting weight on the iron. RI's aim is to work on then removeing the reliance on the iron, and then lengthen the stirrup length.

So far it seems to be working. :crossfingers:

[eml]

Interesting...I have a pupil who I struggled with leg position for ages until I saw the light and realised her feet were in fact too small to achieve the 'ideal' position. She went through the same issues at college... instructors saying her lower leg was too far forward/back depending on whether they were looking at hip/heel or knee/toe alignment.

I know I ride too long and stiff ankle on one side means to feel balanced stirrups are not exactly level (average 1/2 hole difference). In my favourite 'security' saddle my legs are often off the back of the flap as the bars are set too far forward for me.

Oh to have a personal saddle for each person/horse or alternatively a perfect body :D

[KarinUS]

and realised her feet were in fact too small to achieve the 'ideal' position. :D
I had never heard of the knee/toe alignment before Scarlett mentioned it; in fact in all illustrations I have ever seen the knee seems to be in front of the toe.
However as somebody who always envied girls with dainty, cute feet I am glad to hear fate has gotten back at them. ;) They must ride with super straight legs, while we Sasquatches can allow ourselves a little angle... haha!:p

[KarinUS]

Guess the ability to go to jumping length (or to even shorten to any notable degree) depends on the saddle. With the knee blocks on my saddle, my legs would be thrown out of any reasonable position - the blocks are rather large and my knee would be forced into a really open, sticking-out position as they went up the side of the knee block. This would mess up the thigh being able to rest on the saddle lightly too as it would be forced into a poor position.


Absolutely! Plus I think jumping length is a bit exagerated IMO. Just one hole made a difference for me. And yes, the saddle definitely sets limits.
I have experienced what you describe in my County Dressage saddle.
When I ordered my new saddle I was set on getting their dressage model but after the rep took my thigh meaasurement and saw a picture of me riding she told me it was way too straight for me. The English Trail Model would have slightly forward angled flaps and would be a better match for the 'real' me. She was right. I felt at home in it from day one. ;) I am a mom and need all the help I can get because I won't have time to ride every day and adjust my body to a saddle who's ideal I can't easily achieve.
http://users.wireweb.net/rdbaker/RideSide.jpg

[Scarlett 001]

Your saddle looks like it fits your body well in that picture.

I may play around with a couple of stirrup lengths just for fun now. I think I prefer where it is now, but may as well experiment a bit. Why not. I was just looking at a video of me riding. The times when my lower leg became most notably unstable were when I lost my seat and started tipping forwards (and I went into a bit of a fork seat) - then the leg was positioned too far back and moved around!!! :rolleyes: I think that article I mentioned in my earlier post (the one you referred to me) talked about exactly this type of core stability thing as the culprit of unsteady legs, and looking at this video I have to agree. When I am sitting better in the saddle (deeper, balanced position) my legs are better.

Okay Skeeter hurry up and be rideable!!! (he is just fine at walk now, but not quite ready to trot when ridden).

[Keket]

Interesting...I have a pupil who I struggled with leg position for ages until I saw the light and realised her feet were in fact too small to achieve the 'ideal' position. She went through the same issues at college... instructors saying her lower leg was too far forward/back depending on whether they were looking at hip/heel or knee/toe alignment.


Wait, really? Foot size is an issue? I have incredibly small feet (I have one pair of shoes that is a children's 3 1/2 US (size 2 UK), and it's too big :rolleyes: and don't get me started on trying to buy women's dress shoes), and I never knew that could make a difference...

[KarinUS]

I think that article I mentioned in my earlier post (the one you referred to me) talked about exactly this type of core stability thing as the culprit of unsteady legs,


Yes, yes! Core stability is definitely an issue. In fact in her book Mary Wanless devotes a whole chapter to that as well.
And when she showed the more angled knee position she also mentions that a more experienced rider will have a more open leg angle. IMO this definitely could be related to greater core stability as well in some aspects.

Like if you were to compete in a beer-stein lifting (stretch out your arm straight and hold a full jug of beer) then as a novice your arm would be very shaky, etc. It would be easier for you if you could angle your arm a bit. Once you got stronger and more coordinated you could stretch your arm more and keep up with the pros. ( not Mary Wanless ideas- those are mine. I don't think Mary is a beer-stein lfiter. ;) )
And looking at it just structurally the angled leg may give us a broader base - like the difference in stability between a tower and a pyramid?

[laura jeanne]

Small feet an issue? I don't get it???

[Mehitabel]

i've never had an instructor look at where my toes were - only my heels as in shoulder-hip-heel line. they do normally say that if you look down past your knee you shouldn't see your toe (to avoid chair seat) but i've never looked at alignment of toes other than in relation to the rest of the leg. it wouldn't occur to me to worry about toes being too far back unless whole lower leg was.

[Skyhuntress]

Absolutely! Plus I think jumping length is a bit exagerated IMO. Just one hole made a difference for me. And yes, the saddle definitely sets limits.
I have experienced what you describe in my County Dressage saddle.
When I ordered my new saddle I was set on getting their dressage model but after the rep took my thigh meaasurement and saw a picture of me riding she told me it was way too straight for me. The English Trail Model would have slightly forward angled flaps and would be a better match for the 'real' me. She was right. I felt at home in it from day one. ;) I am a mom and need all the help I can get because I won't have time to ride every day and adjust my body to a saddle who's ideal I can't easily achieve.
http://users.wireweb.net/rdbaker/RideSide.jpg


Oh jumping position is definately an overrated length of stirrup for dressage....as long as you already have a basis for stretching your leg down. I see so many riders who are coming over from the hunter division who drop their stirrups 6 holes and lose that beautiful heel to hip allignment that was required in hunter. Instead, if they stay the same length and gradually start lowering the stirrups instead of all at once, they maintain that same position, just with an elongated calf.

Of course the saddle makes a difference. Because of my really long thighs (short calves, unfortunately) if my stirrups are TOO short, my thigh almost comes over the side of the saddle and I can't get a good connection, and not to mention that I look like a reverse chicken, trying to flap away with her thighs ;)

As for the toes, in dressage they are supposed to be pointed forward. Not facing outwards, and not facing inwards, but forward, and in theory, the tip of your boot should be right at the head of the girth (but as we all know, leg position does need to change at times)

Personally I question the issue of "too small feet". I think that's the wrong assumption, because I ride in a size 6 (and let me tell you how ridiculous that looks when I'm 5'9), and if you've ever seen the Pony FEI's with their 10-16 year old riders (and some of them have like size 2 feet), they still maintain a proper leg position, in fact a lot of times better then adults, probably because they are still so flexible. What DOES affect the riding position is strength in the ankle - as well as in the lower back. I really don't think small feet would have a positive or adverse effect so long as they were proportionate

[KarinUS]

Small feet an issue? I don't get it???

LJ,

that only came up because Scarlett mentioned that according to Podhast riders should have theri head/hip/heel aligned as well as the knee with the toe.

Head/hip/heel is pretty straight forward and leaves some freedom in what angle you keep your legs.
However if you align your head/hip/heel and then look at your toes in relation to your knee then a short-footed person will need to keep her leg straighter than a long-footed person would.

See illustration below.
First foot is aligned ok head/hip/heel (just assume it's true ;) ) and ahs a short foot, hence appears to have the foot too far back.
Second leg has the same leg angle but a longer foot and so appears to match both criteria.
Third foot is the first (short) foot again, making it fit both criteria.
Can you see how different the angle will be comparing picture 2 (long foot) and picture 3 (short foot) if you wanted to match both the head/hip/heel as well as the knee/toe criteria?

[laura jeanne]

Ok, thanks Karin, I see that in your example, the shorter foot would need the foot farther forward and throw off the head, hip, heel line. I wonder though if a shorter person all over with a shorter foot wouldn't be in the correct position anyway since everything would still be in proportion. So shorter foot, shorter thigh, etc. and all falls into place?

[KarinUS]

Close but not quite. The person with the shorter foot can achieve head/hip/heel alignment as well as knee/toe as long as she keeps her leg straighter than somebody of similar built but with longer feet would have to do.

[Skyhuntress]

Close but not quite. The person with the shorter foot can achieve head/hip/heel alignment as well as knee/toe as long as she keeps her leg straighter than somebody of similar built but with longer feet would have to do.


I wonder about that. In theory, you're assuming that everyone's calf lengths are the same. If you assume that a person with size 4 ft will have a different calf length then someone with a size 10 ft, your diagram is wrong, simply because the position will be altered based on the leg length, not because of foot size. It'd be a different story altogether if you had two people who were of the same height, but one had size 4ft and one had size 10ft, but had the same length of leg - THAT'S where you would run into problems with alignment, and I could see it being awkward for the rider to be able to position herself fully. But really, nature does tend to balance us out - I haven't seen too many people with freakishly big bodies and tiny feet, nor have I seen really tiny people with massive feet - not to say that it couldn't happen, but doubtful that there are THAT many people who would be so greatly influenced by the size of their feet.

[KarinUS]

I am not assuming that it's a major problem. In fact I think I have already decided that for me it won't be a problem at all: I am going to stick with head/hip/heel and completely ignore knee/toes. :D :D :D
I said 'of the same built' in my example. It's all just theory and was just trying to explain to LJ what eml's post about feet was about. That's all. Don't make it more complicated. ;)

[Skyhuntress]

I am not assuming that it's a major problem. In fact I think I have already decided that for me it won't be a problem at all: I am going to stick with head/hip/heel and completely ignore knee/toes. :D :D :D
I said 'of the same built' in my example. It's all just theory and was just trying to explain to LJ what eml's post about feet was about. That's all. Don't make it more complicated. ;)

Ah, I missed the part about you saying that f it was the same build.

[Scarlett 001]

Good diagrams. :)

I am going to stick with head/hip/heel and completely ignore knee/toes. :D :D :D

Methinks your knee and toe are pretty nicely lined up in that pic you just posted!!! ;) :D But maybe you are planning on shortening the stirrup from how it is in that picture? :)

[laura jeanne]

I'm pretty sure that my former (hunter/jumper) RI said your toe should be 3 inches behind your knee. Well, whatever, I think you look fine and I can only work with what I have!

[KarinUS]

I'm pretty sure that my former (hunter/jumper) RI said your toe should be 3 inches behind your knee.

Yes, absolutely! Forward Seat would have knee definitely in front or else you wouldn't be able to get off the back and fold up.

Methinks your knee and toe are pretty nicely lined up in that pic you just posted!!!

I noticed that afterwards myself. LOL. I am not going to actively boycott the knee/toe alignment ;)- I am just not going to worry about it either way. Too much to worry about already!

Oh and I just found another nugget in Mary's book pertaining to chev's and para's posts:
Would somebody be in pain if they had a finger between your stirrup and your foot?

:o :eek: :cool: Yes! For me they would be screeching in pain, that's for sure... LOL:rolleyes:

[Scarlett 001]

I am not going to actively boycott the knee/toe alignment ;)

That made me laugh. :p So did this thought - you could have stick with a sign attached to it that you hold while riding, that reads "Join Me in Boycotting Knee/Toe Alignment!" :D

:o :eek: :cool: Yes! For me they would be screeching in pain, that's for sure... LOL:rolleyes:

Yikes. I think I would rather hurt someone too! :o :eek:

[Blackhorse]

Having read some of this yesterday I started think about my leg position. I have a nasty pitch due to a dropped and rotated right hip. It means at times I cant sit on my seat bones. I learnt to cope with this by sticking my bottom out behind me. My legs were always too far forward and have been striving to bring them back. I shortened my stirups 2 holes. In bringing my legs back my pitch got worse.

last night I dropped my stirups the 2 holes again and achived better straightness than I have had for a long time.


Shorter is not always better.:confused:

[MeMe]

But that saddle you where in last night played a huge part in that!

[Blackhorse]

True

But that saddle you where in last night played a huge part in that!

[KarinUS]

Having read some of this yesterday I started think about my leg position. I have a nasty pitch due to a dropped and rotated right hip. It means at times I cant sit on my seat bones. I learnt to cope with this by sticking my bottom out behind me. My legs were always too far forward and have been striving to bring them back. I shortened my stirups 2 holes. In bringing my legs back my pitch got worse.

last night I dropped my stirups the 2 holes again and achived better straightness than I have had for a long time.


Shorter is not always better.:confused:

Yes, I think when they make general recommendations like that they assume that everything else is the same - in this case it's assumed that the person shortening the stirrups rides with the seat bones pointed down.
I am sure that if it's not possible to ride with the seat bones pointing down then all bets are off and things may be quite different all together.

[domane]

I can't get on with longer stirrups at all.... my heels tend to rise, I feel like I am on tippy-toes when I rise to the trot and because I try to correct the angle of my foot with each step my lower leg flaps all over the place. I've always found this odd as I have assumed that a longer leg would force me to sit deeper, but have found this not to be the case at all.....

Might I be putting the cat amongst the pigeons by daring to suggest that an accomplished rider would be better to have their stirrups and leg position adjusted to where they feel stable and comfortable, rather than how it looks to a bystander? As illustrated with all the comments above, we all have different leg lengths, calf to ankle lengths, hip to knee lengths and even foot lengths so the "standard" surely should allow for variables?

[Peanut]

Since reading Mary Wanless I've put my stirrups up a hole and it's done wonders for my riding.

I don't care now if they are not the traditional dressage length, they work for me and my horse.

[MeMe]

The only thing I found with RWYM is just to be careful with the legs, they do get hung up on shortening the stirrups and my legs have gone the opposite way and far to far back, I need to get them more forward.

[Blackhorse]

Thats what I thought until we started going through some old photos the other day. I thought I was more secure through the leg with the shorter stirups and weight into my knees. Last night was a lightbulb moment and as MeMe said this was greatly improved by a change of saddle too. I felt I started to achive a bit of collected trot and sat more upright in the canter and was not so leading with my shoulders in rising trot. I am sure there is loads more to do but with mirrors its hard to feel when you have been in that position for so long.

Since reading Mary Wanless I've put my stirrups up a hole and it's done wonders for my riding.

I don't care now if they are not the traditional dressage length, they work for me and my horse.

[rabbit]

I've just read this thread and I don't feel alone anymore ! :)

I have issues with keeping my toes in, and my foot slides through the stirrup when rising to the trot and cantering (actually doing anything except halt and walk). I can't put the stirrups up any further otherwise my knee goes over the flaps. (fairly straight cut dressage saddle)

I used to manage ok until I bought a horse that wasn't right for me and I think I've developed an odd way of riding due to gripping. My instructor pointed out that I roll my ankles when I walk, which is why I have so much trouble riding.

[sophie33]

Rabbit - that is a revelation. I can't keep my toes in very well at all - particularly my left one. Last night my RI put my toes in the right position and it felt really odd, although for the few minutes I held it I think it did improve my leg aids. But I also roll my ankles when I walk.... so that explains it. Are you getting better with practise - or will I have sticky out toes on one side forever! I have to wear very supportive running shoes to correct my rolling, is there any equivelant for riding?

[tasha]

Sticky out toes annoy me - I have wonkly made legs: when knees face forwards, my toes point out. So for my toes to face forwards when riding, my knees have to turn in. This has been even worse since I sprained my ankle 2 years ago!

I think what we can conclude that there are exceptions to every rule, and its horses for courses really!

[mothra]

Thanks everyone for posting this discussion. I had a couple of months off, then had to put my stirrups up 2 holes for my new, narrow horse. 4 months later I'm stronger, he's fatter, and my knees are just about over the front- maybe going down just one will help get my legs under me again.:rolleyes: