The Waltz and focus - KateF or others - help!

[Est]

I've been working through KateFarmer's very good book (The Harmony Project: Year One) with Merrick. About 4 days ago we came to the Waltz.

I could do with some help/ideas on the first part - getting his full and undivided attention before we start!

I stand in front of him, facing him (too close perhaps? Usually 0.5m away. Perhaps I'm still in a blind spot?) and his head is usually turned slightly away - often to my left (his right). As Kate suggests, I gently try to draw his head centrally using the leadrope. Maybe I'm using it too strongly - he ignores anything light, but when I do get a response, his head moves over to the right, overcompensating. After a few tries his head is looking directly at me, but (like the pictures of Harmony in the book) I definitely haven't got his attention. His ears will be focused away from me on any interesting noises in the background.

This is the bit where I get really stuck on gaining his full attention - if I speak, or snap my fingers, or say his name, or try to look more "assertive", he ignores me - his focus remains elsewhere. If I then wiggle or draw on the leadrope to try to catch his attention, he often starts to move off, most frequently to my left (his right). I stop him, back him a few steps, and try again.

He is always calm and polite while we do this, and if I feel I've got his focus, I immediately (perhaps not quickly enough?) stop all other activity, praise him and rub his forehead, but the next time we try the Waltz we are back to square one and have to start all over again! So although I thought I was releasing the pressure and rewarding the try, obviously I can't be doing it quite right.

So a few questions:

1. How far away from him can he actually see me? Should I stand more like 1m away, or even further, to start?

2. When his head is facing me but his ears are not, how can I gain his attention without making him think I want movement?

3. When he gets it right and focuses fully on me, how should I show that he has done the right thing?

And a final question from further along in the Waltz - is there such a thing as too many or too few steps forward? We seem to be taking about 3/4 at the moment before disengaging the quarters - is this ok?

[KateWooten]

Good thread, good questions ! I have some of the same issues with Tiny Pony. She looks at me from her left eye, I bump her gently over, and after a little reluctance, she'll look at me from her right eye... but in the middle there, it's like we're opposing magnets ... she'll disappear off to one side or the other.

I appear to have her undivided attention... ears are all looking good ... yet she still finds things to spook at and get scared of.

For the actual waltz, I think I'm happy with what I do with Tiny - a couple of steps for focus and alertness, lots of turns, very, very soft cues (she doesn't need much) ... then sometimes we'll go for a longer circle - half or a whole circle ... it's quite a relaxing exercise that way.

Sorry, wrong Kate, I know, and only more questions, no answers ... I expect the real kate will be along in a mo to put us right :)

[Est]

You're one of the "& others" :D Was hoping you'd reply :)

I like the idea of sometimes doing more of a circle before disengaging. I feel that I'm spending all my "forwards" time planning my next move - not really "being in the moment" myself. So this is a good tip and might help improve the quality of our Waltz.

[Lili & Morgan]

Great thread.

last week I have started to work on it with my mare Linda. However, i ahve not started like in Kate's book. I first started like CA's lungeing for respect.

Sending Linda on a circle,
disengaging hindlegs,
stepping in front of her,
making THAT shoulder moving away from me.

Linda spooks when she has to changed from the left to right eye, at liberty in the round-pen I could not get inside turns too from left to right, she would roll back.

The first time, I did small serpentines, with ME moving my feet ... I know bad.

The second and third time, I did not move my feet.

the main diffeence from Kate, is that my mare is already moving. I find that if she has already some momentum, she is easier to work. or maybe because she has a strong lungeing background, she understands she has to pay attention ????

Tomorrow, I will try from a stop, but i believe it will be harder.

[Kate F.]

Hi All! Thanks for the nice comments about the book!! :o :)

Est, For the distance away from the horse to get the attention, I think 0,5m is a bit close. I usually have the the horse 1 to 2 metres in front of me. If they get closer, use the "shaking back" exercise to put them back at a reasonable distance.

If they don't look at you when you ask, and just look away, tug a bit more firmly on the rope. If they move the head over and look in the other direction, tug on the other side. Keep going until they look at you. Even if they only look at you for half a second, and look away again, stop tugging and give the horse a gentle stroke on the face, then try again.

What is really important is to notice the small try. The horse will then quickly realize that looking at you is the "right answer". We also need to keep in mind that when the horse is giving you its full attention, it's not looking out for predators - so it's trusting you to be a good enough leader to keep it safe.

Another point to bear in mind is my old chant that the higher ranking "horse" controls the larger area of personal space. You might find it easier to get the attention if you have more distance between yourself and the horse. If your space is big, you're probably a better leader, in the horse's eyes! ;)

It's not unusual for the horse to step forward when it does give you its attention - again, its taking control of the personal space ... sort of "ok, I'm looking at you, but I don't think you really know what you're doing when it comes to being a leader - so I'll stay in charge, thanks!" That's why it's very important to be able to attract and keep the attention from whatever distance you choose without the horse stepping forwards.

Ideally, when attracting the attention, you want both ears and both eyes. I think the eyes are the most important, and focus on that to start with. It's not the head you need - it's the EYES! :) Even if you just get one eye looking at you at first, reward that. The other eye and the ears will follow along in due course! :D

Well observed that he usually moves off to his right - therefore putting you in his left (more confident!) eye. When you get his attention, you will probably find you get the left eye first. Make sure you reward this generously. It could be that he's going to have trouble giving you the right (looking for predators!) eye - so be patient and build it up slowly.

How far to waltz ... well, a few steps is fine - or a couple of circles. At first, you'll be working in walk, so half a circle or so is fine. As you move up to doing it at trot and canter, obviously you need more space and the horse will go further. There's no real minimum distance - the only thing you want to avoid is the horse going round and round and switching off. If the horse is prone to switching off, you'll probably be better working with less forwards movement to start with. If you have a very excitable, flighty horse, you might find they settle more quickly if you let them go a bit further before disengaging the hindquarters.

Lily and Morgan.... I'm curious about one thing... why shouldn't you move your feet? My feet move all the time - the horse should be mirroring my energy, pace and direction - if my feet stop, the horse stops. The only time I shouldn't move my feet is when asking the horse to stop - my movement will keep the horse moving.

I'll see whether I can get some video of the waltz and upload it, if that would help. (The video isn't the problem - the uploading is!:p :D )

[Lili & Morgan]

Lily and Morgan.... I'm curious about one thing... why shouldn't you move your feet? My feet move all the time - the horse should be mirroring my energy, pace and direction - if my feet stop, the horse stops. The only time I shouldn't move my feet is when asking the horse to stop - my movement will keep the horse moving.

I'll see whether I can get some video of the waltz and upload it, if that would help. (The video isn't the problem - the uploading is!:p :D )

What I mean is that US beginners ;) get easily "pushed out of the way" by the horse, the horse will brace and sticks THAT inside shoulder towards the centre of the circle. So I mean that when my horses do this I need to push away, and get that diagonal and back step! :p

I find that my young alpha mare is easier to train. She is not happy with it, but we are getting there.

But I have to watch out for my gelding Morgan, who has been OVER-Parellied ( not by me). He plays the games with me, and bracing and crowding my space without looking like he does it, is one of his tricks. :D

But as our relationship is growing, he is more trusting. So we are getting there, with him keeping a good attitude. Which also can be difficult because being over-Parellied etc ...

[KateWooten]

I think M (Lili&Morgan) is worrying about her feet moving because Clinton Anderson is very strong on this point : if the horse crowds your space, and you step back out of his way, you are handing him all the power. Lili (the horse) has been super-dominant to M and has pushed her about a lot. When M stands up to Lili, there is often 'some discussion' from Lili ;)

Now, when you've got the waltz going on really well ... it is all about movement ... and mostly forward movement ... I'll try to get DH to video us today if we can find some dry ground :rolleyes: ... my feet too are moving all the time ! But in a forward flowing way, or in a little dance step as we change eye. Never in a scurry out of your way type of step.

[KateWooten]

OK, I took DH and Tiny Pony out, and have a video to share,.... but I'm on dial-up, so don't hold your breath, it will take a while !

[Kate F.]

I think M (Lili&Morgan) is worrying about her feet moving because Clinton Anderson is very strong on this point : if the horse crowds your space, and you step back out of his way, you are handing him all the power. .

Aha - I see! Yes, I agree with CA on this one - you mustn't step back, because that means you're stepping out of the horse's space and in "horse" saying he is higher ranking. Obviously, safety comes into it too - and in an emergency jump whichever way gets you out from under the feet!!! - but in general terms, the movement from the person should be forwards and flowing -especially at the beginning.

Later on, you can start playing with backwards too - but only when the personal space is firmly fixed. Yesterday I did a little tango type dance with Sunny - I stand facing her. I put my left foot back, she puts her right foot foward. I put my left foot forward, her right foot goes back. I lean towards her, she leans back away etc. etc. keeping the distance between us the same at all times. Very silly, but great fun!

Now I have to work on the bit where she goes down on one knee and I can lie over it! :D :D :D

Seriously, though, the not backing off the horse bit is very important - I fully agree there!

[KateWooten]

So, this should make for a discussion start point at least ...

Tiny Pony hasn't been handled much since the vet came on Wednesday. I think that experience was a bit much for her, and she's been incredibly tense since then, so I've just left her alone to get over it. I got her out this morning, and DH came to video our best attempt at the waltz :) The paddocks are flooded, so this is on the front lawn where she's not really been before ... and working with Dh is always hopeless because the dogs think it's a good excuse for a family party, and they're all over everywhere, and Tiny's spooking, and DH is whining 'are we done yet?':rolleyes: . So, I've uploaded a sequence which shows the closest we got to 'smooth and flowing' :D for critique and discussion ! I've also repeated a couple of the turns in slow motion, so we can have a better look at what she does, and what I do, and added a couple of stills from the last turn sequence also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc37278glcc

[Est]

Thanks for sharing the vid (which I think is very good BTW). It's been *very* helpful. Things it's made me think about:

1. I have been asking for the back-and-away respect step as a separate, stand alone move, rather than as part of a smooth start into a new direction. Because I've not been getting a very good step, I've been having to move more than I should, and he's not been moving enough, to get the new direction started. The back-and-away respect step done properly should change that balance. So now I have a much better idea of what I'm aiming for - and why! Some of your back-and-away respect steps are so smooth and so seamless into the new direction that I've had to watch the vid three times to see them happening!

2. I *definitely* need more forward steps before disengaging. I'm trying to do too much too quickly, and it's taking away any rhythm and making it feel jerky and stressed.

3. I am not expecting enough respect. Merrick has been taking smaller disengage steps (hardly crossing at all sometimes), and really delaying any response to the request for the back-and-away respect step. I've been making excuses about his arthritis, my body language, the wind direction, the pattern of tea leaves in my cup on a morning... :D What it comes down to is that I've started accepting "okay" or "adequate" as being good enough - and it's not. Tiny Pony is doing some lovely disengages and really responding to your body language. Although I've got a way to go, I can see from watching you that I'm not actually doing that much *wrong* in how I'm asking - I just need refinement and a lot more practice - and there's no reason for Merrick not to respond much better than we've been getting recently.

So in summary :D that's been really helpful and I'm very grateful that you posted it!


ETA don't go deleting that vid any time soon! I need to watch it a few more times yet!

[KateWooten]

Well that's good then ! My anonymous NR buddy who really should say something here, (but won't cos she never thinks she's got anything smart to say, but she always has :slaps head:) pointed out something very important about Tiny, as compared with her own horse. Tiny is all 'drive' .. no 'draw'. I can't in a gazillion years, get Tiny to invade my space. She's had the snot beaten out of her. I probably subconsciously picked Tiny to video, because I can cue her with less than perfect body language and still get away with it - she'll do anything to stay out of my space ... so even if I hint that we're changing direction, she'll do it, and then do her best to back out away from me. She is utterly terrified of people, and my anonymous buddy could see that straight away from the vid.

hmmm,.... I wonder if I can prevail on Dh to take another, of another horse ... that might make a neat further discussion ...

[Kate F.]

The flow and movement look really good. One detail.... when you yield the forehand away, make sure BOTH front feet go back and away. At the moment the foot furthest away from you steps back and away, but then the one nearer you just goes sideways and swings in front of the other one.

Try to get it that the one nearest you tucks in behind the one further away, so both shoulders are lifted back and away. She might resist doing this at first - but stick at it. When you get that step, you'll win a whole lot more of her confidence!

This is a really powerful part of the step and you will see some big changes when you get it. Not many people notice or emphasise this. So far, of the "big names" only Bill Dorrance mentions it (and as he's big on it, I expect Leslie Desmond is too). Parelli knows about it, (and certainly uses it himself!!) but thinks it is all too much for ordinary people to cope with. I don't, and nor does Richard. We have that straight off in level 1, because it's such an important move, and noone's head has exploded yet! :D

Have a look at the pics on the website - I think the colour ones are a bit clearer than those in the book.

Tiny Pony is just anticipating that forehand step a little bit, and she needs to be waiting for you to give the next instruction, so to speak! I think if you work on that foot nearest you, that should start to fix itself. You can also try sometimes disengaging, then moving the forehand away and going off in the same direction again - so after the disengagement, she has to wait for you to say "what next"!

Otherwise it looks great! Well done! :) :)

[Lili & Morgan]

Thanks so much KateW.

It helps a lot, but as you say Tiny is all drive ;) Also when she is facing you, you cannot "make her" or shall I say CONVINCE her to come to you. It is you who go to her.

Poor Tiny, I wonder what the B@st@ards did to her. poor poor horse!

Thanks Kate F for your input.

It really motivates me to video me.
I hoep to do it in 2 weeks times ( because I am going away).

Again Thank you it was pretty :cool: