Parelli-how much £££?

[Widget]

How much does it cost to join Parelli? From looking on the interweb I see you can join the Savvy club and also buy the packs. Do I need to do both?

All the prices were in $. Do you pay with your card and they convert it or is there an English place to buy it in £?

OH has said he will get it for my birthday but im not sure he realises how expensive it is. I dont know much about Parelli but am open to the idea and want to give it a go. Im assuming I need the level 1 pack and the savvy club subscription. Is that right?:o

[KateWooten]

Don't !!! While you stll have free will .... just walk slowly away .... Once you get into that cult, they won't stop sucking your money til you're a destitute bag-lady, on the streets, whimpering to yourself over and over... "I could have been someone, I really could, if only I could have got the level 3 pack with the special 50ft lariat....just one more pack ... that's all it should have taken ..."


(Just MHO, obviously - there are far more cost effective ways to learn and enjoy the principles that the Parelli Foundation is based on.)

[Bay Mare]

LOL @ Kate :D

Have to agree with you though (Just MHO of course ... )

[cvb]

widget

if you take up membership, it is done in dollars and your credit card co. converts it. That means it will vary month to month and there may be charges associated with it (depending on the card provider).

The membership gives you a magazine, regular DVDs, and discounts on packs and courses.

In terms of packs - keep an eye on eBay but be aware that there is "old" version of packs and "new" versions for L1 and L2. But even with the "old" versions you will find video ones and DVD ones - from different times. So browse a bit and see what is out there ;)

Even better, go along and *watch* a local course. Its not vastly expensive to do that and will give you a much better idea of whether it is for you or not.

[india]

How much does it cost to join Parelli? From looking on the interweb I see you can join the Savvy club and also buy the packs. Do I need to do both?

Hi Widget...

No, you don't need to join the savvy club to study the Parelli system, you can pick the back dated Savvy news, DVD's and the older version L1 & L2 packs up quite cheaply on eBay.... but if it's the newer packs your after here's a UK link:

http://www.equine-behaviour.com/store/storefront.htm?gclid=CIWK95ey_4oCFQSDEAodzxDMHA

To give you an insight of the training methods, I've got a brand new unopened (older version) genuine Parelli Partnership L1 DVD, it doesn't include the booklets but it does take you through the L1 tasks - your welcome to borrow that if your interested ;)

OH has said he will get it for my birthday but im not sure he realises how expensive it is. I dont know much about Parelli but am open to the idea and want to give it a go.

In my opinion it's worth every penny, it's thanks to the PNH training programme and the help of it's excellent instructor(s) that I was able to regain my confidence and my horse was eventually able to overcome his behaviour problem and regain his as well. :)

Good luck in whatever path you decide to follow.

.

[Lili & Morgan]

KateW : you are a SCREAM :D :D :D

Widget:

Get as many CHEAP DVDs of Pat Parelli on eBay. they are WORTH it. He is a GREAT horseman.

For books, get Clinton Anderson's book, same stuff that Parelli but cheaper in printing ( CA' DVDs are horribly expensive :eek: )

Then you want to undertsand a bit more you ought to buy Kate Farmer's book ( no I am not on commission).

Then go to a Parelli clinic.

Remember it is NOT about the gear, it is about your timing and the relationship between you and your horse. You do not need to spend so many ££££ for a ropehalter, for a lead rope ( which is too heavy IMO), a training stick too.

LodgeRope on here makes very nice rope products at a very nice price too. Plus they are nice :cool: ( No I am still not on commission). Silversand ( Crystal Fire on here) has cheaper training stick and lighter too.

Have fun with your horse. Parelli program is a good place to start, but you will have to grow OUT of it, and PLEASE do not go into their riding program that will destroy your seat etc ..Just My Personal Opinion

[Widget]

I knew the mention of Parelli would get opinions going! Thanks for all the advice you guys. I know there are arguements for and against all trainers so im planning to try a sample from each of the more popular ones and take the bits I like/agree with and leave the rest. The reason I like the sound of Parelli is that it seems quite a structured program? I tend to have ideas to train Jasmine but once on my own in the arena I get a bit stuck on what to do. It sounds like I can follow step by step with Parelli which may help me. Im not fussed about the equipment as I have a halter and a rope (Just cheap ones but they do the job) and from what I can tell the other bits are pretty much just a whip and a bit of string?

We dont have a specific problem to 'fix'. I have been having a few issues but found out on Sat she has a sore back which explains it. Its more that I view her as my friend. She wants to be around me through choice, will groom me when I groom her and does things for me because I want her to and she wants to please, not because Im making her do it. I just want to work on that.

Now im riding her I need to teach her all that goes with ridden work. Rather than using a whip and forcing her into things, I want to teach her from the ground and work up. Lots of people think im nuts as it is taking longer than if I 'got on with it' but im not in a rush. I waited 4 years for her to be old enough to ride so I dont feel the need to rush her now. She is not the sort of person who reacts well to bullying anyway so I think in the long run a more gentle approach will get us further.

[Joyscarer]

I agree that Parelli is hugely expensive and can be got cheaper on ebay. I also got non parelli items that do the same thing as I don't want to spend £36 for a 12ft line :eek:

I have been reading around the natural horsemanship concept since november and even in this short time I can see that the info offered by PP is the same as offered cheaper elsewhere.

The difference for me though is the way it is presented.

To my mind there is nobody I have read yet that presents in such a straightforward building block structured way. It gives me direction and logic in a way that I just don't get with anyone else I have read so far.

Now what's good for me may not be good for you so I would suggest buying one of the packs off ebay and seing what you think. You can always sell it on for the market price which is what you would have paid for it anyway (if you have done your homework on what they sell for) and would only have lost out on the p&p which you can't recoup :D

[KateWooten]

Don't worry - any of the well-written books will give you ideas, and a structured program - albeit less structured than Parelli. Everything I've read in NH - and classical H :) all emphasise building the training up step-b-step, and will show you how one movement is built out of smaller movements.

I've found it very easy to stay inspired, to 'start where we are now, and build from there'... without a specific program. I know there are lots of people who love being in the parell, I don't think I know anyone who's stayed in it, and has also looked around and really learned from other 'methods'. I know several people who have Parelled to the tune of many many $1000s, and ended up disappointed, disillusioned ... And yes, agree with L&M, avoid their terrible fluidity riding ... and watch any videos you can of PP himself, preferably with the sound down. He's an incredible horseman.

[KateWooten]

.....duplicate post

[Joyscarer]

I think I will probably end up yet another one of those people too Kate. :)

I will continue onto level 2 only because my friend went ahead and bout the pack but I wouldn't have done so myself.

I think that the grounding the Parelli gave me and the way I can now think and organise my mind in the right way has meant that I didn't feel the need to spend out for the next pack. Mind you I haven't sneaked a look at it yet so it could well be that when I do I will be converted again.

[RaThEr_Be_RiDiN]

Don't !!! While you stll have free will .... just walk slowly away .... Once you get into that cult, they won't stop sucking your money til you're a destitute bag-lady, on the streets, whimpering to yourself over and over... "I could have been someone, I really could, if only I could have got the level 3 pack with the special 50ft lariat....just one more pack ... that's all it should have taken ..."


(Just MHO, obviously - there are far more cost effective ways to learn and enjoy the principles that the Parelli Foundation is based on.)

a bit harsh ! :) we all have different opinions. Personnaly i like the parelli programme the way it is set out, and i am prepared to pay the extra money (even though i am a student) as it works out about the same as it would if i didnt do parelli...all the lessons i had etc.

Parelli IS expensive but you can cut down on the costs by buying second hand. I got all my equipment and level 1 cheap on ebay for about a 1/2 of the price new. it cost me about £120

The savvy club is a bit of an added extra, you could happily follow the programme with out it, it works out about £11 a month, i joined it for a few months then decided it was a bad idea as i didnt need that info as it was quite repetitive.

[mayoguinness]

Parelli is an expensive type of NH to start with. I've got a rope Halter and carrot stick and all but from then on its been being taught by an Aussie NH instructer which is fantastic. She herself started off with Parelli and moved onwards to Ken Faulkner and now she does her own thing. I'm not at all against PNH I think its always a good place to start and helps no end as long as you do it correctly as I know so maney people who haven't, then blamed it on the form of training instead of themselves not doing it right. Stick to it and I'm sure you'll get on great :D

[EnduranceAli]

Interesting :) I started down the Parelli route back in November - bought the L1 pack, joined the Savvy Club (yes it is around £11 per month) and had full intentions to carry on to L3 - BUT lack of money and an introduction to Silversand (via here) means that I have now cancelled my Savvy Club membership, sold everything on Ebay for at least what I paid for it and bought the Silversand videos on Ebay for very little money :D

Parelli L1 was fantastic, and I have heard even better things of L2 - but I am not working now and can't expect my OH to pay for it. PNH gave me a way of restarting Frayne (and how I think about horses) in a very structured way. The DVDs and written material are all top-class and also entertaining. Frayne is now quiet to ride in a rope halter/Lodge Ropes Enduro Bridle and I have had my eyes opened (after more than 27 years being around horses I thought I knew a lot - but I do not :rolleyes: ).

You can do Parelli cheaper - although there aren't many of the 'new' packs available on Ebay (when I listed mine, I ended up ending the auction early and accepting a considerably higher offer).

Can't comment on the riding aspect of PNH, as I sort of ignored the really slow start and slightly strange riding position of 'Pushing Passenger' (Frayne can only tolerate 5-10 minutes in a school, let alone 20 minutes :D ). However, from watching Pat and Linda Parelli, I think that the higher levels must introduce more 'fluid riding'.

Don't buy the Parelli equipment - go to Lodge Ropes (I am not on commission, but would recommend them to anyone).

Ali xx

[Shadowlark]

I'm going with Kate on this one.. Parelli is a money pit. That doesn't mean that it's BAD - but they will gladly suck you dry. I have seen the Level 1 pack.. and read Clinton's book.. You can get every bit as much out of the book as the pack if you don't NEED the video's. Clinton even kindly explains how to make all the "needed" gear yourself with some items from the hardware store. If you do need video's Clinton's VHS tapes pop up on ebay for dirt cheap (before he caught on to how much money was to be made maybe.. LOL)

Horse And Rider (the north american one) is now running a series by Stacey Westfall (the infamous reiner who competes without tack and is cleaning house) It's excellent well written and well ilustrated...

There are LOADS of options that don't involve emptying your wallet on the counter..

[mayoguinness]

True, but if you've got the money doesn't mean you shouldn't do it if its gunna help you ;)

[Lili & Morgan]

Mayo - I am going to tell you a secret ... ssscht.
Rich people stay rich, because they do not spend money :cool: the wealthier you become, the less you spend and the less you are willing to spend ;)

So if you can get the same material/advices for the tenth of the price, then go for it.

You then save the money for a vet bill, for a better saddle, for a better instructor etc...

Savvy, isn't it?

[mayoguinness]

lol :D thanks for that :p but like the Parelli what are they self teaching packs or somethin, don't you have to buy those off the PNH site?? I know you can get the rope halters ad carrot sticks off other sites a lot cheaper cuz I have myself but I was wondering about that pack thingy (what great termanoligy hey :p)

[india]

I'm going with Kate on this one.. Parelli is a money pit. That doesn't mean that it's BAD - but they will gladly suck you dry. I have seen the Level 1 pack.. and read Clinton's book.. You can get every bit as much out of the book as the pack if you don't NEED the video's. Clinton even kindly explains how to make all the "needed" gear yourself with some items from the hardware store. If you do need video's Clinton's VHS tapes pop up on ebay for dirt cheap (before he caught on to how much money was to be made maybe.. LOL)

There are LOADS of options that don't involve emptying your wallet on the counter..

I wasn't going to add anything more to this thread but hey-ho ;) ......

In all the time I studied the PNH programme, I was never under the impression that Parelli was trying to suck anyone dry. There's options available to every student to study as much or as little as they feel comfortable with, they don't have to buy the levels programmes, they don't have to purchase the trademark equipment or have to join the Savvy club to gain the benefit of the PP's training methods. The students who decide to take this path do so because they choose to. :rolleyes:

For those who are interested in the PNH training method but don't wish to commit themselves in such a big way there's Pat Parelli's 'Natural Horse-Man-Ship'. The book describes in detail his training methods and also includes instructions and pictures to teach the reader these techniques. The book costs around £10.00 to purchase new from http://www.equine-behaviour.com/store/storefront.htm?gclid=CIWK95ey_4oCFQSDEAodzxDMHA but no doubt a used one could be picked up a lot cheaper on eBay.

Then there's the website, parelli.com that has numerous articles and advice that's available for anyone to view - not just it's members, there's also free weekly Parelli podcasts available to download.

While I agree there are LOADS of other NH options and training methods available that WILL be less expensive than PNH and their trademark equipment, to suggest that Parelli is out to suck folks dry is about as far from the truth as you can get!! :rolleyes:

I no longer study PNH, but I think it's unfair for anyone to criticise it when they haven't got a full insight into the programme, how it works or what it has to offer.

Ok, I've stepped of my soapbox now. :)

[Widget]

Im very lucky to have been given the chance to view Parelli's work before comitting the money (thanks India) so if I do part with the cash I will know what I am getting.

I like the way Parelli seems to come in one big pack that you work from. Its all in one place so would possibly save time looking up different things from different sources. It sounds like you are paying to have life simplified. I may be wrong and will pass informed comment once I have taken a look for myself.

Im not rich and I wont be buying Parelli equipment just because its Parelli. That said I would be more than happy to pay more for an easier life. Having it all there in one go is worth more to me than saving money and finding it all out myself bit by bit. Once started with Parelli it seems popular to expand to other things and that is likely what I would do as well, but that seems easier to do once you have a foot in the NH door so to speak. I have these ideas about how I would like to handle and train my horses, but ideas and reality are very different and I need help.

In an ideal world I would get the P packs and assorted books written by others and select the bits I like. I have to start somewhere hence my asking you guys! I want that relationship with my horses that these trainers seem to achieve. Im sure with enough work I will have. But first I have to undo 25 years of conventional horse handling. I need all the help I can get!!!:o

[KateWooten]

I suspect that Widget will have a great time with the Parelling, and will use it effectively. I think most everyone can do that, use it sensibly, keep their minds open, and if they did the 'Parelli-cult' reputation wouldn't keep persisting.

BUT - the Parelli-'cult' mentality IS still growing :- the Parellis themselves are of course aware of it - and I heard that the recent re-vamps to the packs were an attempt to change that .. as were the huge overhauls to the residential week-long clinics in FL and CO.

It was felt that Parelli graduates were becoming too fixed in their thinking, not willing, or able, to think outside the box. It was as though people felt they could buy into the program ... and almost automaticallly become horsepeople ... and of course, it doesn't quite work that way.

Now, whether its the fault of the clients, or the program .. well, it has to be both, doesn't it ? The program is very deliberately marketed as a 'complete solution'. Like you say, everything in the one place. Apart from a few buzz-words, that is precisely Parelli's contribution to NH. But of course that 'complete fix' appeals to precisely the sort of people who will pay big money, believing whole-heartedly that this is the answer to their prayers ... in an almost religious zeal !

I strongly suspect that we see more of that effect here in the US than you do back home. We do have a tendency to become over-zealous about things.

I think Parelli is a great first foot int he door to NH, as is Clinton Anderson, and possibly John Lyons too. But that's all they are. A foot in the door. Not a complete solution. It's the thinking of any of these things as a complee solution that the danger of closed-mindedness, and cultishness lies. My one big problem with Parelli is that it is not set up for dipping into and getting your foot in the door. It's set up to get you hooked and draw you in. SO is JohnLyons, but at least he has the big free forum so at least you can get a thorough taster.

(btw ... and just my opinion.... the two worst written, unclear, difficult to follow, overrated 'items' in the NH world, if anyone's thinking of buying them - are the Parelli book - Natural Horse-Man-Ship, and John Lyon's 'Ground Control Manual'. UGH to both of them. )

[mayoguinness]

Well Jayne Lavender started off with PP, did all his levels and became one of his instructers but didn't get stuck there neither have I heard her say anything against it. She simply thought out of her box, tried new things and worked out different and better ways as she went on......learning and so on and she certaintly isn't closed down to every other technique, shes took bits and bobs off everything and she came from a very traditional background herself!! PP is a good place to start and then you can move onto if you feel its right to different types and different people :D

[india]

I suspect that Widget will have a great time with the Parelling, and will use it effectively. I think most everyone can do that, use it sensibly, keep their minds open, and if they did the 'Parelli-cult' reputation wouldn't keep persisting.

Strange isn't it how the Parelli cult following only ever appears to be evident to those who critcise the programme? :rolleyes: In the three years I studied PNH, I never came across any evidence of a cult following - there again maybe you studied the programme for a longer period and therefore have a better insight into it than I do. ;)

It would be interesting to know how your so informative on a teaching programme you so obviously find overated and overpriced!! What actual personal experience have you had with the PNH programme KateWooten? :confused:

ETA: I've read Pat Parelli's Natural-Horse-Manship book but unlike you, I didn't find it badly written or difficult to follow - on the contrary, I thought it was very informative with plenty of pictures to back up written materiel.

[Shadowlark]

(btw ... and just my opinion.... the two worst written, unclear, difficult to follow, overrated 'items' in the NH world, if anyone's thinking of buying them - are the Parelli book - Natural Horse-Man-Ship, and John Lyon's 'Ground Control Manual'. UGH to both of them. )

LOL I actually Gave my Horse-Man_ship book away.. the worst most unclear thing I have ever read.. thankfully the "packs" are better put together but I still don't think you get the value for the money. I got my paws on them from a friend who is a Zealot :)

[cvb]

Widget says "But first I have to undo 25 years of conventional horse handling."

but I followed a pretty conventional route - years of pony club, gymkhanas, BHS exams - and I personally found it was all consistent. Consistent with the *good* conventional stuff that is ;)

Shadowlark also comments on getting content from other trainers - we have less availability in the UK and shipping to the UK from US is based on weight so can be v expensive !

[Shadowlark]

Strange isn't it how the Parelli cult following only ever appears to be evident to those who critcise the programme? :rolleyes: :

Having been to see Parelli's demo's more then once.. put on BY Parelli, it's more circus then demo. But folks sit there in rapt attention.. And then they go on to the if you want to know how we did this.. buy our stuff available over there.

My friend who is training to become a Parelli trainer is CONSTANTLY on me about "converting" she cannot see it as "natural horsemanship" she sees it as Parelli or not. They hang out in "camps" at horse shows around here and look out at the rest of the world as "wrong"

I don't have a problem with anyone pursuing a better relationship with thier horse. I certainly don't have a problem with people training thier horse. I don't have a real problem with people following one style or trainer - but do feel that the more you round yourself out the better.

I have read his book and the level one pack. I have read a whole lot of other stuff as well. I took a few things away from it but not a whole lot. The question right off the top was about money - and of all of them I would say he is probably the most expensive to "follow" But they arn't alone - the prices on Chris Anderson's site keep climbing (wait I can charge how much for a tape of my tv show??) Chris Irwin the Canadian Horse whisperer is no cheap date either.

As to books being available in the UK and price for shipping. Amazon.co.uk has a very good selection of books (it's as good as my selection as a canadian) by the authors being discussed new and used and for free shipping if you spend over 15 pounds.

[india]

LOL I actually Gave my Horse-Man_ship book away.. the worst most unclear thing I have ever read..
It seems odd this book is only being criticised by you and KateWooten since it was mentioned as one of the less expensive options available for studying PNH.

I wonder if it's pure coincidence? :D


Having been to see Parelli's demo's more then once.. put on BY Parelli, it's more circus then demo. But folks sit there in rapt attention.. And then they go on to the if you want to know how we did this.. buy our stuff available over there.

My friend who is training to become a Parelli trainer is CONSTANTLY on me about "converting" she cannot see it as "natural horsemanship" she sees it as Parelli or not. They hang out in "camps" at horse shows around here and look out at the rest of the world as "wrong"

You must have been to different demo's to me then...I'm against any type of circus trick training and have never seen any Demo that included anything like trick training! Neither have I felt pressurised into purchasing anything from a demo or clinic that I didn't want.

I also believe the Parelli's would strongly disapprove of your friend trying to 'convert' you or anyone else into the Parelli programme, it's not only very unprofessional but also one of the first things students are advised not to do - never mind trainee professionals!!!

[Shadowlark]

Hey I bought it, at full price to get an idea for it. I honestly didn't like it. I wouldn't say don't go buy it if you want to get an idea for it. It just amused me that Kate felt exactly the same about it. I have spent more on the Demo's then on that book. I certainly wouldn't recomend buying it to "study PNH" because I don't think it even properly scratches the surface of what he is trying to convey.

I own books by about 15 differnt Natural horsemen on my library shelf. That book however no longer lives there.

[RaThEr_Be_RiDiN]

parelli isnt for everyone, some people will see it as cultish and closed minded, i recently started my level 2 and i can say i have never felt so open minded in my life. Its like a whole new world has opened up for me, im constantly thinking of new ways to try and communicate and play with my ned!
I no not everyone experiences this (and thats why so many people drop off the radar during level 1.) so they cant appreciate how open minded we really are!!! :D

[cvb]

As to books being available in the UK and price for shipping. Amazon.co.uk has a very good selection of books (it's as good as my selection as a canadian) by the authors being discussed new and used and for free shipping if you spend over 15 pounds.


Shadowlark

if so, that is a relatively recent innovation (probably down to the increasing popularity of NH over here), as I've looked for "other" NH people before (and more than once). I did manage to get Lyons Communication and Cues shipped from US for a good price, but that was another book site not Amazon...

[Shadowlark]

LOL if the best thing that comes of this thread is more people realize you guys now have almost anyone at your reading finger tips on Amazon.co.uk

Then the whole thing was well worth it :)

In a quick search I found Clintons book, Rashid's books, Parellis two mass market books and his wifes, both of Chris Irwins books..

Maybe the poor OP could go and pick up a few different ones, and see which one actually fits Her and her horse

[KateWooten]

It seems odd this book is only being criticised by you and KateWooten since it was mentioned as one of the less expensive options available for studying PNH.

I wonder if it's pure coincidence?

No, I doubt it's coincidence - more likely neither of us like it because it's not very good. In My Opinion.

I have my copy at home, so I'll dig out a few quotes to illustrate where I feel Pat Parelli is unclear, either accidentally or even deliberately. You can Make up Your Own Opinion.

One of the things I dislike about the book is that it doesn't showcase his amazing horsemanship at all well. Parelli the man is far better than Parelli the writer. In My Opinion.

Compare it side by side with other 'NH' materials in its price range and it's not clear, not very well produced ... the black and white pictures aren't clear, text is delightfully obfuscated - funny to read, but not great for learning - it's been surpassed, basically by other, better materials. In My Opinion.

Pat Parelli, and the Parelli machine DOES encourage the cult mentality - whether you get sucked into that or not is up to you, and of course we can all point to people who haven't got sucked in ... but doesn't it worry you, even a little bit, that so many people DO spend lots and LOTS of money and end up disillusioned ? And they DO encourage it. If you know about 'brand imagery' then you can spot it a mile off. Check out the (old) level one pack, as one example, listen for the emphasis on 'savvy', on tying your halters up in a particular way - not so that they're neat and well-looked after, but as he says on the video, so that people on walking into your barn will recognise you immediately as someone who is in the club. You tie your halters up this way, so that people will recognise you as having 'savvy'. His brand imagery, his pushing of an 'in-crowd' is very strong, very deliberate, very thought out marketing policy. You might like that. Just my opinion... I do not.

I have nothing against the method (well, almost nothing) ... I watch the feller at work at every opportunity ... but if I had to go out and buy retail, the information I needed to grow as a horseperson, Parelli is about the least cost-effective way of getting started. In My Opinion.

[india]

I certainly wouldn't recomend buying it to "study PNH" because I don't think it even properly scratches the surface of what he is trying to convey.

In my opinion, it clearly covers the principles behind the PNH method of training, these intentions are confirmed in a paragraph in the preface of the book...

Extract:
The book is a blend of concepts and excercises. The exercises and manouveres are designed to help you more fully comprehend the concepts and help you communicate effectively with your horse on his level

However, as this book was first published in 1993 there's a couple things that have since been updated - for instance, Pat refers to the six yields in the book - which (with the addition of the 'friendly') became the seven games and the progress string later became known as the savvy string. :)

Although this book doesn't include nearly as much information and step by step instruction as the levels programmes, if read in conjunction with the information and advice readily available on the Parelli website it would provide the reader with enough information and guidance to learn and put into practice the basics of the PNH training method. ;)

[KateWooten]

Extract:
103 Ingredients
Excellence with horses and a partnership for life is what we all are striving for and rarely get because normal horsemanship gets in the way. I've identified 103 ingredients in Natural Horse-Man-Ship, and these concepts are the basis of this text. I list them in a particular order: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10. Added together, they equal 31. There are two sets of these numbers (1, 2, , 6, 8, 10). 31 + 31 = 62. Add the 41 "Ps" as mentioned above. 31 + 31 + 41 = 103.

huh :confused:

Nobody is saying that there is no good in the method Parelli, but his low-cost materials can not compete with current NH materials in the same price range. They don't showcase PNH very well - heck, the book doesn't even have the seven games in ! And his higher cost materials become incredibly high cost very fast. In My Opinion.

[Tootsie4U]

There is a thread somewhere on here that tells you how to make your own Parelli equipment (carrot stick, lines, etc.)

If anyone is interested, I'll go looking for it.

Thats what I did. I made my own stuff and used the books and rental videos from my tack shop.

[india]

Compare it side by side with other 'NH' materials in its price range and it's not clear, not very well produced ... the black and white pictures aren't clear, text is delightfully obfuscated - funny to read, but not great for learning - it's been surpassed, basically by other, better materials. In My Opinion.
Comparing it side by side to other NH books for £9.50 (if you can get any other NH books for that price) I think it's amazing value and very well produced. There's over 200 pages of well informed learning materiel including horse psychology, on line, liberty and ridden techniques plus loads of (clear)still frame black and white pictures to help detail the information.

Pat Parelli, and the Parelli machine DOES encourage the cult mentality - whether you get sucked into that or not is up to you, and of course we can all point to people who haven't got sucked in ... but doesn't it worry you, even a little bit, that so many people DO spend lots and LOTS of money and end up disillusioned ? And they DO encourage it.
I've yet to come across ANYONE who has felt they got 'sucked in' by the Parelli's. Everyone I know has followed the Parelli programme up to the level they feel is beneficial to them and their horse. Some have stopped midway through L1 while others have carried on to study L3. I've also yet to meet anyone who's regretted spending their hard earned money on the programme, like me, they all believe it was money more than well spent!! ;)

However, if someone is going to become 'disillusioned' with the programme or for some reason it doesn't suit them or their horse, I can more or less guarantee this would happen before they reached half way through L1. So, at the most they've paid for the L1 programme and toolkit (whether branded or not). These could be easily resold on eBay for next to the price they paid for them - no big loss!!!

Check out the (old) level one pack, as one example, listen for the emphasis on 'savvy', on tying your halters up in a particular way - not so that they're neat and well-looked after, but as he says on the video, so that people on walking into your barn will recognise you immediately as someone who is in the club. You tie your halters up this way, so that people will recognise you as having 'savvy'. His brand imagery, his pushing of an 'in-crowd' is very strong, very deliberate, very thought out marketing policy. You might like that. Just my opinion... I do not.

Nope, I've watched those video's numerous times and never heard Pat mention anything about "folks recognising you immediately as someone who is in the club". He does however mention about tying the halters correctly and hanging them up in such a way that they're ready for the next time you needed them. By doing this folks would recognise you had savvy. Now when you consider savvy means having practical knowledge and ability this doesn't seem to be out of context to me. (just my opinion) ;)

.

[india]

Extract:
103 Ingredients
Excellence with horses and a partnership for life is what we all are striving for and rarely get because normal horsemanship gets in the way. I've identified 103 ingredients in Natural Horse-Man-Ship, and these concepts are the basis of this text. I list them in a particular order: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10. Added together, they equal 31. There are two sets of these numbers (1, 2, , 6, 8, 10). 31 + 31 = 62. Add the 41 "Ps" as mentioned above. 31 + 31 + 41 = 103.

huh :confused:

Nobody is saying that there is no good in the method Parelli, but his low-cost materials can not compete with current NH materials in the same price range. They don't showcase PNH very well - heck, the book doesn't even have the seven games in ! And his higher cost materials become incredibly high cost very fast. In My Opinion.

What page is that on?

ETA: Ah, I've found it page 8.....

Taken as a small chunk (as in your extract), it does appear a tad confussing, but when you read it as a whole chapter where he breaks everything down into bite size chunks and explains it in detail, it's very simple to understand isn't it (in my opinion).

[BeachRiding]

You know the best thing to do?

Have a few lessons with a NH trainer. Don't buy into the Parelli home program, it is so much better to spend your money on some lessons.

[KateWooten]

Taken as a small chunk (as in your extract), it does appear a tad confussing, but when you read it as a whole chapter where he breaks everything down into bite size chunks and explains it in detail, it's very simple to understand isn't it (in my opinion).


Well, you see, even reading the whole chapter, I still didn't get it ! What is the basis for this 'Particular order' :confused: Why would you list some concepts in the order 1,2, (....ok, I'm with him so far...), 4 ? 6 ? 8 ? What happened to concept 3 :confused: Why would you take an element's position in a list, and it to another element's ordinal ?? :confused: I don't know .. the whole thing has me baffled .. .quite honestly, in all the re-writes and revamps, I honestly can't see why this is still in there ! I have no doubt the Parelli organisation could produce a far better updated book.

Now, ok, that quote is (for me) the most obfuscating in the book, but there's a strong theme running throughout, of levels and numbers he throws in there as 'absolute fact'. In fact, i would go so far as to say, the guy, at that stage in his career, was verging on the obsessive with his use of numbers !

Extract:
You might note that 45, 22, 12, and 6 are the distances that make a difference to the horse, and they're also the lengths of rope that I mentioned ...

Is that right ? Because I haven't noticed anything special about those distances. As far as I can see, every horse is different, and with every horse, it's more important to develop your training at a distance progresively based on the reaction of the horse, rather than on a specific length of Parelli-rope.

Extract:
As we get past the age of 35, the kid in us starts leaving

Maybe for Pat ?

Extract:
I'd like to challenge such a person and ask him or her to take a Level 2 horsemanship test by sitting on the fender of the trailer and loading the horse. A Level 3 test would be even harder. He would have to be able to load his horse 45 feet away from the trailer. A Level 6 test requires loading a horse 45 feet or more from the trailer at liberty

Here - is he giving us a broad outline of what we can expect from a progressive training structure ? .. I think he is trying to.. but again he gets stuck in a very prescriptive, very concrete description of precisely what should be done at each of many levels. And bear in mind of course, in this monolithic construction, that to date, only 3 of these great all-embracing levels ever got constructed. I don't find this level of prescription at all helpful. Maybe you do.

All things aside, if anyone has the book and can explain to me that thing about the bit about "1, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10. Added together, they equal 31." etc etc ... I would be very grateful. I've had the book for years, and read it over and over ... but I've got never it. To me, even in context, it is not very simple to understand. Like I say, for the money, I've found other books a lot easier to understand. Perhaps I'm just not book-savvy ;)

[Lili & Morgan]

India - I am pleased for you that you have such a great experience with Parelli.

I live in Italy, I am afraid my experience of Parelli is very similar than Shadowlark ( she is Canada, I have never met her personnally, so it is not a conspiracy ! :p )
I went to a Parelli show it is a circus, rather than a "proper" technician clinic. Yes I bought the gear, which I rapidly sold :p .

My friends who were IN the Parelli Italia Program, left because it was too EXPENSIVE. They went into a ONE week camp, they said that they had the MOST expensive holidays ever, as there were so many hidden costs.

I won't go on, about their cult mentality, especially the ex-owner of my horse, Morgan. He thought that Parelli was the answers for everything. But he could not see why his horse was bucking at every trot-canter transition, because the saddle was so ill-fitted :eek: I guess Parelli does not do saddle -fitting ... Oh yes it does that funky inflatable saddle cloth.

Anyway, I do not see the point to go on. My point is that I have the same impression that Kate Wooten who is in the USA, and Shadowlark who is in CANADA, and I am in ITALY! It is NO coincidence, but more likely Parelli's marketing politic.

I am a big fan of Pat Parelli, and yes I buy his DVDs cheaply on eBay. So his ideas are good, but you need to grow OUT of it.

Also do not get into the riding in fluidity, you will loose everything. If you ever wonder, it is ME who started the thread on EE, on how appalling Linda Parelli's riding is!

[mayoguinness]

I think a lot of people give up on PNH because they don't understand it and don't want to except it more than anything. Parelli seems to me to be into you do it this way or don't do it at all which is fine by me I prefer it like that but sometimes it takes someone like Jayne Lavender who can incorage the good that she sees and work with that and sneak in through the back door if you see what I mean!! Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big Parelli person, nope I'm sold to Australian NH but seeeing as both Ken Faulkner and Jayne Lavender have origanally trained with him and have before been his instructers I am fairly opened minded and think he has done a lot of good in the NH him world and bringing it to light and Jayne hasn't yet said anything against him but I think his aprouch for a lot of people is not flexible enough and they soon decide they don't like it as he is very much you do it like this or not at all!! :D

[mayoguinness]

Can't comment on the book, never read it but al those number thingies are confusing me!! lol, it looks like a good book from what I can see though!!

[india]

..I went to a Parelli show it is a circus, rather than a "proper" technician clinic. Yes I bought the gear, which I rapidly sold :p .
As I've already mentioned, I am totally against any type of circus/trick training - if I'd have ever got the same impression, I wouldn't have continued with the programme. Everything that's taught the horse through the PNH programme has a purpose behind the principle.

If you go to a Pat Parelli conference or demonstration with this is mind and also with the understanding of what these principles achieve, I'm sure you'd view it in a different light. However, if you go with a closed mind or little knowledge of the basic principles it may appear to be a different story.

Having said that, at each demo and particulary the two conferences I've attended, there's always been a full description and explantion of the purpose of each demonstrations before they begin. Maybe the demo's are run differently in the UK but I thought the annual conferences remained the same from country to country. :confused:

My friends who were IN the Parelli Italia Program, left because it was too EXPENSIVE. They went into a ONE week camp, they said that they had the MOST expensive holidays ever, as there were so many hidden costs.

Sorry, I can't comment on that because they don't have camps in the UK. ;)

I won't go on, about their cult mentality, especially the ex-owner of my horse, Morgan. He thought that Parelli was the answers for everything. But he could not see why his horse was bucking at every trot-canter transition, because the saddle was so ill-fitted :eek: I guess Parelli does not do saddle -fitting ... Oh yes it does that funky inflatable saddle cloth.

Maybe I'm wrong, but unless you get a made to measure saddle, surely it's the responsibility of the owner to ensure any 'off the peg' saddle fits his/her horse properly? Even treeless saddles have been known to cause damage to a horses back if they're not the correct size!! :rolleyes:

I am a big fan of Pat Parelli, and yes I buy his DVDs cheaply on eBay. So his ideas are good, but you need to grow OUT of it.

Also do not get into the riding in fluidity, you will loose everything.

As it happens, I no longer follow the programme, but I do still go to a few demo's and have already booked a seat for the conference being held in August at the NEC.

I've never taken an interest in Linda's riding with fluidity, however - I strongly believe that it's up to the individual student to determine for themselves whether they want to follow this side of the programme.

...If you ever wonder, it is ME who started the thread on EE, on how appalling Linda Parelli's riding is!

To tell you the truth I varely rarely visit Heather Moffett's site because it's to anti this and anti that (not just regarding Parelli ) - there again that's just my personal opinion. ;)

.

[india]

Well, you see, even reading the whole chapter, I still didn't get it ! What is the basis for this 'Particular order' :confused: Why would you list some concepts in the order 1,2, (....ok, I'm with him so far...), 4 ? 6 ? 8 ? What happened to concept 3
Ok, first of all it must be mentioned this chapter is included in Pat's Philosophy pages at the beginning of the book.. (It's only a shortened version but it's give's folks a brief idea of the concept behind the numbers)..oh, and number 3 must be hiding somewhere with 5,7 and 9. :p

The first set of numbers mentioned are ...1,2,4,6,8 and 10.

The 1 thing everyone strives for with their horse is a natural partnership for life.
There's 2 types of horsemen, normal and natural
There are 4 areas of study in his training methods
Six keys to success – attitude, knowledge, tools, techniques, time and imagination.
8 principles – Horsemanship is natural, don't make assumptions, Communication is mutual, Horses and humans have responsibilities, the attitude of justice, body language is universal, horses teach riders and riders teach horses, principles, purpose and time are the tools of teaching.
He they goes on to describe the 10 qualities of a natural horseman.

The second set of numbers are exactly the same as the one's above (typical of PP).

1 rein for control.
2 reins for communication.
4 goals for natural horsemanship – get people interested in NH, have people live through their experiences with horses, show people how to have fun with horses, have people excel with the knowledge of natural horse-man-ship.
Only 6 things a horse can do - forward, backward,right, left, up and down.
8 responsibilities of the partnership four for the human & four for the horse.
There's 10 levels of natural-horseman-ship.

Extract:
You might note that 45, 22, 12, and 6 are the distances that make a difference to the horse, and they're also the lengths of rope that I mentioned ...

Is that right ? Because I haven't noticed anything special about those distances. As far as I can see, every horse is different, and with every horse, it's more important to develop your training at a distance progresively based on the reaction of the horse, rather than on a specific length of Parelli-rope
I'll get back to you with my theories on that because at the minute I haven't got time to thumb through 231 pages to find that paragraph.

Extract:
As we get past the age of 35, the kid in us starts leaving

Maybe for Pat ?
By this, I understood him to mean the older we get the more cautious we usually become. ;)

Extract:
I'd like to challenge such a person and ask him or her to take a Level 2 horsemanship test by sitting on the fender of the trailer and loading the horse. A Level 3 test would be even harder. He would have to be able to load his horse 45 feet away from the trailer. A Level 6 test requires loading a horse 45 feet or more from the trailer at liberty

Here - is he giving us a broad outline of what we can expect from a progressive training structure ? .. I think he is trying to.. but again he gets stuck in a very prescriptive, very concrete description of precisely what should be done at each of many levels. And bear in mind of course, in this monolithic construction, that to date, only 3 of these great all-embracing levels ever got constructed. I don't find this level of prescription at all helpful. Maybe you do.
Again, I haven't the time to thumb through the pages, but I should imagine he's describing the level of training required to complete the assessments.

And bear in mind of course, in this monolithic construction, that to date, only 3 of these great all-embracing levels ever got constructed.
Wrong...there are ten official levels but only three home study ones. ;)

All things aside, if anyone has the book and can explain to me that thing about the bit about "1, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10. Added together, they equal 31." etc etc ... I would be very grateful. I've had the book for years, and read it over and over ... but I've got never it. To me, even in context, it is not very simple to understand. Like I say, for the money, I've found other books a lot easier to understand. Perhaps I'm just not book-savvy
Lighten up.... I don't think it was MEAN'T to mean anything specific or taken to seriously, it's like Pat's 41Parell-isms, all very trivial but it's what folk either love or hate about the man. :D

By the way...I don't think your not book savvy...just not Parelli book savvy.

.

[Crystal Fire]

What a fun thread :)
I've organised Parelli camps in the UK, and my comment would be that if you've got hidden costs then you've probably got a bad host. A good host makes sure that all the venue hire, instructor costs etc are sorted out before the camp. So the problem may well be nothing to do with Parelli, if they just sent an instructor they won't be interested in other costs.
I'd like to challenge such a person and ask him or her to take a Level 2 horsemanship test by sitting on the fender of the trailer and loading the horse. A Level 3 test would be even harder. He would have to be able to load his horse 45 feet away from the trailer. A Level 6 test requires loading a horse 45 feet or more from the trailer at liberty

I think that statements like that are a bit of a shame and they do alienate people. I mean, let's face it - most horse owners won't see the point in being able to load sitting on the fender, as long as they can load then job done. But if you want to teach your horse to load from increasing differences, it's not that difficult.
I think whatever "method" you are thinking of working with, it's worth going along to a lesson or clinic before spending your money. Unless the materials are really cheap that is. Demos are OK and fun, but they are always going to show you a finished result, or a horse that has been selected for the job. I think you need to see the "real life" to make up your mind.
p.s. I know Pat goes on about 10 levels, but I don't for a minute believe he actually knows what they are.

[india]

....I know Pat goes on about 10 levels, but I don't for a minute believe he actually knows what they are.

Yes he does!! ;)
http://www.parelli.ch/holland/html/fast/hs.php#7

[~*Emily*~]

I have the new style Parelli level one pack for sale and some Parelli brand equipment for sale all in excellent condition, PM me if interested.

[KateWooten]

Yay For India !!! I think you're doing actually a stunning job of presenting all the good stuff about Parelli :D You're exactly right - love him or hate him, that's how he is ... the 41Ps paragraph :rolleyes: Sometimes I watch Pat work with a horse with the sound down and he always inspires me that way. His timing is really amazing. It's just his jibber-jabber that gets up my nose ;)

p.s. I should have put the page numbers in. That would have been only fair - I will remember to do so in future... sorry :o

[Bay Mare]

To tell you the truth I varely rarely visit Heather Moffett's site because it's to anti this and anti that (not just regarding Parelli ) - there again that's just my personal opinion. ;)

.


Yes, EE is anti this and anti that. I would completely agree with you on that one.

Anti rolkur. Anti bad riding. Anti bad training. Anti bad teaching. Anti poor horsemanship. Anti anything that is prejudicial to the horse.

There are a lot of positive threads on there though, you obviously don't visit enough :D

[Lili & Morgan]

It's just his jibber-jabber that gets up my nose ;)

But I love this part, he makes me laught, and he has always the little words that stays with me . :p

But yes watching without the sound shows what a horseman he is.

Great great great timing! He is one of the best walking on Earth, right now!
But I have not seen clinton Anderson, so I cannot compare??

How do they rate one aginst the others.

India - well done for exposing the best sides of Parelli. you right to stand your ground :D

[Francis Burton]

Yes he does!! ;)
http://www.parelli.ch/holland/html/fast/hs.php#7
So, dare I ask, what exactly is the difference between "Level 5 Unity" and "Level 6 true Unity"? Or between Levels 7, 8 and 9? Experience and skill, I imagine - but presumably there are criteria which would allow one to say "Yes, clearly you have attained Unity, but not True Unity, so you are only Level 5".

[india]

So, dare I ask, what exactly is the difference between "Level 5 Unity" and "Level 6 true Unity"? Or between Levels 7, 8 and 9? Experience and skill, I imagine - but presumably there are criteria which would allow one to say "Yes, clearly you have attained Unity, but not True Unity, so you are only Level 5".
Sorry, I can't help you there Francis, it's not something I've ever really looked into. I should imagine, like the lower levels there would be some type of assessment required to enable one to progress though the levels - what that criteria would involve though is beyond me!!

It would be interesting to find out. ;)

[india]

Yay For India !!! I think you're doing actually a stunning job of presenting all the good stuff about Parelli :D You're exactly right - love him or hate him, that's how he is ... the 41Ps paragraph :rolleyes: Sometimes I watch Pat work with a horse with the sound down and he always inspires me that way. His timing is really amazing. It's just his jibber-jabber that gets up my nose ;)

p.s. I should have put the page numbers in. That would have been only fair - I will remember to do so in future... sorry :o

Thanks Kate, I enjoyed the discussion...(sorry, I mean't to reply yesterday).:o

[Joyscarer]

Maybe Parelli is the marmite of the NH world :D

[Crystal Fire]

So, dare I ask, what exactly is the difference between "Level 5 Unity" and "Level 6 true Unity"? Or between Levels 7, 8 and 9? Experience and skill, I imagine - but presumably there are criteria which would allow one to say "Yes, clearly you have attained Unity, but not True Unity, so you are only Level 5".
That's what I meant really, I should imagine it was hard enough working out how to measure and assess 4 levels, let alone 10. :D Has Pat said where he thinks he is these days? I think he used to put himself at level 6.
"Marmite of the NH world" - what a great description! I love Marmite, eat it nearly every day.
My friend Steve Halfpenny says that Pat P is the best person he's ever met with problem horses. He says when he was wondering what to do with a challenging horse, he could pick up the phone to Pat and always get a helpful answer.
With Pat's Natural Horsemanship book, I've found that the more I've learnt and experienced, the more sense it's made. You still have to ignore a bit of jibber jabber and stuff involving "P"'s... :rolleyes:
Pat P also makes people laugh - sometimes in a frighteningly politically incorrect way! He's come out with some right howlers at Savvy Days in the past.