Hoof experts (bebe, sheryl etc) Curlys hooves post-trim *piccies*

[CurlyWurlyRach]

question answered - ta very much!

[CurlyWurlyRach]

question answered - ta very much!

[coss]

IMO, they look a bit boxy, i personally would like more of a slope but i don't know if the more hoof experts will agree with me.

[sheryl]

CWR,
I am definately not an expert.
However, I really wouldn't be happy with the shape of those feet at all. They are all different shapes. I would also be worried about the tender frogs too.

I have never had a horse with thrush before, but I'm sure some people on here would be able to give you advise on it. It really isn't surprising that she is not happy to walk on the roads though. If she doesn't like you touching them, she must be sore :(.

If I were you, I would get a different farrier as soon as possible. It will take a while to re shape her feet now, but I definately wouldn't put shoes on now. I think in the future she would probably benefit from front shoes atleast.

I have never seen feet that upright, ever. Her toes are so short, I'd imagine that they're sore too.

Please get some expert advise!
Let us know how you get on.

Good luck

[CurlyWurlyRach]

CWR,
I am definately not an expert.


Good luck


Thanks, you do seem very knowledgeable tho ;) (contrary to popular belief i am willing to listen to people who clearly know more than me - my opinion of her feet 'ones black and the other three are white' :o)

She can be abit 'ouchy' on unlevel concrete to and from the field but is always fine in the school...*ponders* way back when i first got her and she had shoes on she never used to nap... shoes came off and the yard had a gravel drive that she always HATED walking on (we always walked down it to go for a hack......)

*lightbulb moment!*

[sheryl]

What made me think of it, was that she always seemed to rear on the road.
It didn't sound like she was actually scared of anything, or you would have noticed it. Is she normally bold by nature?
It didn't sound like excitement either, or she would have been more likely to rear on open grassy areas.
Could have been her back, but that should be on the mend.
Could have been the pelham, if you've got heavy hands, but didn't she rear in a snaffle?
If it were any of these things, I'm sure she would have reared in the school. Having said that, I remember your pics of her in the school, and she didn't look comfortable. But she still could have been foot sore in the school. Just not so bad.


I think its well worth a go, getting front shoes on eventually. Just sort out her feet first.
One step at a time ;)

[CurlyWurlyRach]

its DEFINATLY worth a try - its pretty much the only thing i havnt tried pain-wise.
teeth (were rough but got sorted - no change)
tack (poor - got sorted and was worse)
back (by two different people (mctimmony and physio) and a massage person)
different riders (my friend, umpteem jockeys, my RI)
five bits (pelham, FL snaffle, snaffle, kimblewick, dutch gag)

Only slight problem is that my farrier is the most highly reccomended in my area (one other good one but apparently he's notoriously unreliable and being at college, i have obscure breaks and need people to be on time or i get into trouble with teachers ''sorry im late, the blacksmith didnt turn up'' is apparently not a good enough excuse :rolleyes: )
I know my farrier is supposed to be a better shoe-er than trimmer.

[CurlyWurlyRach]

is it worth putting shoes on in a few weeks just as an experiment? if she seems any better in the 6 weeks they are on then take them off again and get her foot shaped like a foot and not a box?
if she's no better then get feet shaped feet but wont be disapointed after....

[Bay Mare]

I'm not an expert but I'd definitely want someone else to trim those feet (a barefoot trimmer?). The feet look out of balance (look at the difference in heel height for a start) and it doesn't look like he's addressed the bars at all.

I would also like to do some infection busting on those frogs, it may just be the photos but they're not the healthiest frogs in the world.

It doesn't look like a trim that was only done on Thursday to me. He might be good at putting shoes on but the underlying trim should be balanced no matter whether the horse is barefoot or shod.

They have the potential to be good barefoot feet but they will need a proper trim along with some conditioning work and bug busting.

I'm sure that there will be a trimmer in your area or at least someone willing to travel to your area.

http://www.epauk.org/findep.php

Good luck, if you want to stay barefoot then I really would suggest looking at a qualified barefoot trimmer.

[CurlyWurlyRach]

her frogs do creep me out rather alot, they're not nice at all. her beds kept clean but they id go through a phase of smelling bad when she was out 24/7 in last summer (i didnt realise that it was probably thrush and i felt awful when my farrier asked me when she'd had a nasty infection.)

What do you reccomed i do with them? *eyes up first aid box* she doesnt like them being touched (if you slide a hoodpick down them to flick mud off she pulls back and dosnt appriciate them being poked but lets the farrier trim them happily, theres some holes in thre aswell)

[MelanieD]

IMO the most important thing is to sort the thrushy frogs out, that could make a huge difference to how comfortable her feet are. Borax is good for scrubbing or soaking and MSM cream is great for cramming into any crevices where thrush can lurk. Improving the frogs could also help the feet generally since some of the stuff that's not too great could be related to the rubbish frogs. Trim could be better IMO, if you can't find a better farrier could you find a trimmer that covers your area? EPs and UKNCHP trimmers are both good.

Shoes aren't the ideal thing to do when frogs are already weak and thrushy. But maybe boots or a few layers of neoprene or nappies or something taped onto the feet to help with comfort would be an interesting experiment?

Feet could be the reason for napping and bad behaviour. One of mine used to tank off home and generally be totally horrible to ride, took shoes off and found her feet were far worse than my farrier had ever mentioned and she would have been quite sore even with shoes. Behaviour has improved hugely since. When she was first barefoot she did get sore sometimes, then she used to climb on the grass verge outside the yard and inform me she would not be going down the stoney track until I put her trainers on, put booties on and she'd hack out like a good pony :)

[Ptaty70]

CW has just had a bowt of thrush and I was advised to use Betadine. You can get a large bottle in a chemists for £2.95 (I got mine from Boots). Dilute it and put into a spray bottle, then get into all the nooks and crannies with a brush. It seems to have worked a treat and I have only been using it for 5 days (just watch your hands and clothes, the stuff stains!)

I am going through what you are re 'what do my horse's feet look like to everyone else'... 'why is this or that happening', footsore etc and etc... going to get some mac boots so hopefully that will help. This weather is not helping any of us!

[Rips]

that my farrier is the most highly reccomended in my area

Farriers who are highly recommended by word of mouth (IMO) are usually the ones whose shoes stay on the longest! :o Not always the best! :p

Does anyone else find that?

[CurlyWurlyRach]

can borax be bought from tack shops? all i have is purple spray :o
I'll go get some at the weekend and have an ick busting session or two ;)

ETA - oooh im in town on Thursday - will nip too boots!

[Bay Mare]

Farriers who are highly recommended by word of mouth (IMO) are usually the ones whose shoes stay on the longest! :o Not always the best! :p

Does anyone else find that?

Oh yes! The number of times I've heard:

"My farrier is great, his shoes stay on for 12 weeks"

"My farrier is always on time, he's brilliant"

"My farrier is great, he's a really nice bloke"

"But we've had him for years, we can't use someone else now"

:rolleyes:

[Nik-n-Kia]

If you cant scrub the feet then blast them with water to take of the muck and I bought betadine powderspray. it gets into all the cracks etc and when it hits the water of the frog it goes into a paste which sticks and bug busts.

I used this method last year for Kias mudrash.

If she will stand in a shallow bucket ie rubber feed bucket then this helps. Kia used to do it but jas since decided he doesnt like it. :rolleyes:

Nikki xxxxx

[kirstie]

Can't help with the feet as i'm useless, but Amba sometimes gets thrush for no reason and its usually when shes out in the summer. Also sometimes when shes stabled even if she has a very clean bed. I cant remember the name but will have a look at my bottle tomorrow, my vet give us a spray which lasts a good couple of weeks still have it and it was used last summer. Its for cattle but it can be used on horses, its 18.50 a bottle might differ from your vets but excellent stuff, its purple as well and stains everything in sight :rolleyes: :D

[Bay Mare]

CWR - borax can be bought from Wilkinsons or some branches of Boots. Some people have had good results with cider vinegar. Milton is also used for an initial blast but not in the long term. If you decide to try an EP they will be able to supply you with cleantrax for a one-off blast (a real faff to do but can have excellent results).

Betadine and Hibiscrub can be very drying and whilst they can be useful in the short term they wouldn't be my first choice.

I prefer tea tree oil soap wash + honey smeared on and in all crevices (Manuka is good) with Pioneer Herbal Balm for the real ick.

[Shadowlark]

HAHAHA omg so true..

While the horse is standing on a visible slant to the left...

We have a guy around me who is HIGHLY recomended.. he does some of the chuck wagon horses you know!! I saw him work on a horse once.. dear lord help me.. he spent less then 5 mins on each foot.. patted the horse and took his money and left... I could have done a better job with my rasp.. blindfolded..

[sheryl]

I wouldn't put shoes on them, as they are.

I think I'd get a vet to look at her frogs. He may have an opinion on the shape of her feet too.

Ask around, and find out what trimmers and farriers you've got in your area. Maybe someone on here will know of a good one. I can't believe theres only a couple. Theres heaps in my area.

Why not start a thread in General (loads of people will see it then;) ),asking about farriers and trimmers in your area, and recommendations on hoof boots, atleast for her fronts.

I wouldn't actually wrap them up though, for any length of time, because of making the thrush worse.

[CurlyWurlyRach]

just been chatting to someone from the yard and the nearest EP is miles away but does cover us, just nobody uses him :rolleyes:

I will probably ring the vets for advice about the frogs - better safe than sorry and all that. poor hoss, i always thought a foot was a foot, end of story!

[Yann]

Unfortunately a foot is never just a foot :D Those heels do look horrendously long, and the resulting contraction and lack of stimulation are probably the main reason the frogs are so unhealthy. No amount of scrubbing with this or that potion will sort them out in isolation. At least get a second opinion, be it from another farrier or a trimmer, those fronts look frightful to me in those pictures, your horse looks like it is permanently in high heels.

Whereabouts in the land of the sheepies are you? The trimmers I use would probably cover your area, their website is http://www.right2remainshoeless.com/

[CurlyWurlyRach]

thanks Yann, ive just emailed them :)

[CurlyWurlyRach]

ok, i have the trimmer yann suggested and a different farriers numbers.
Tomorrow im going to give my current farrier a ring and ask him to come take another look at her (im making a few notes from this thread!) and see what he says.
If im not happy then i'll switch. I had no idea her feet were as poor as they seem to be.

[Lgd]

Got to agree that the balance looks wrong and the feet certainly do not match each other. I wouldn't even be bothering to get the original farrier back - that is not the picture of one bad trim, it is a lot of bad trims. I would suggest getting one of the above recommended folk to have a look but be prepared for quite a long remedial process to sort out the contracted heels and the foot balance.

[CurlyWurlyRach]

this particular farrier hs been trimming her for only hmm 6 months-ish, if that makes a difference.
Im going to call him tomorrow and basically say that im not happy with his trim and id like him to come take another look, if i dont get a satisfactory answer then im going to change.

needless to say i feel terrible that ive overlooked her feet before.

[Bebe]

Farriers who are highly recommended by word of mouth (IMO) are usually the ones whose shoes stay on the longest! :o Not always the best! :p

Does anyone else find that?

Oh yes! It's scary how many people base their opinion of a farriers work on whether they turn up when they say, if they turn up on time or not and how long the shoes stay on between visits.

I don't think the trim is good either I'm afraid. There's no symmetry between the wall and sole (which means there's flaring on the foot which means the white line connection won't be as strong as it should be), the heels don't appear to be balanced, the bars need to be trimmed (and too tall bars can cause discomfort on hard ground) and the frogs desperately need to be treated for infection.

I'd be tempted to Cleantrax the frogs given that she's not comfy on her feet at present, it's a faff and a pain and a touch on the expensive side but it will give you an instant clean slate to work from. Then you have to keep on top of things with a cheaper product - Borax, diluted Hibiscrub (this works best for me), Pioneer White line products, Milton solution, etc. Take your pick and if one doesn't work, try another as they do seem to be bug specific. You're going to have a battle on your hands keeping the frogs healthy whilst-ever the hoof is as it is now. I'm definitely finding that healthy hooves do their own infection busting without any interference from us, but it can take a while to get to that point.

6 months is plenty long enough for this farrier to have made positive changes that could be read in the new growth of the foot, and you'd also see differences in the sole view after each trim. I'm not seeing any evidence of either thing in the pics you've posted I'm afraid.

[sheryl]

if i dont get a satisfactory answer then im going to change.



But how will you know what a satisfactory answer is:confused: . Most of us, normal everyday horse folk, could be fobbed off by a farriers jargon.

At the end of the day, he's had his chance to show you what he does. Hows he gonna do a better job? I wouldn't trust him. Especially with a horses feet. There used to be an old saying "no foot, no horse", and its so true. Don't take chances with them;) ,

The way in which Curly's feet are shaped at the moment, it will affect her whole way of going. But its not just her feet, its her legs too. The tendons and ligaments will all be affected by those really long heels.
Like someone else said, she is walking around in high heels. If you wore high heels constantly, for months, imagine how it would feel, if you just took them off;)

It may take many months to sort her feet out now. Like I said before, I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm quite sure you can't just hack those heels down now. It will probably take many trims to sort them out, and for her legs to adjust.

I personally, would search for a good farrier, before going for a trimmer. The foot has to be balanced whether it has a shoe on or not.
My farrier does an excellent job:)

Please don't take this as criticism. Its not meant to be;)
Its good that you've asked for advise, and listened. Well done:)

[Wally]

There is no use making all the feet the same shape if they are not the same shape. some horses will have a longer heel on one side and you cannot just lop it off, it takes time.

You have to trim and shoe the foot on the end of the leg and take the whole leg into consideration when you trim. If the horse has three dofferent shaped fee then I'm afraid you are stuck with it and you need to take things very slowly when influencing the shape. Alter the hoof radically and you'll lame the animal fartherup the leg.

As for boxy feet, some horses have boxy feet and upright paterns in which case you have to trim and shoe acordinfly.

I would far rather see a foot trimed and shod as an individual, and not 4 matching hooves where they don't match.

You need to see the horse move too before making any decisions about how you are going to go about trimming or shoeing him.

[Bebe]

There is no use making all the feet the same shape if they are not the same shape. some horses will have a longer heel on one side and you cannot just lop it off, it takes time.

I agree, but it's not acceptable to leave the heels unbalanced either. If it was genuinely the case that a heel could not be taken any lower (e.g. you trimmed it to live sole level and it was still high in terms of other landmarks on the hoof) then the other heel should be trimmed to match it, or not trimmed as the case may be. Leaving the hoof unbalanced overall just perpetuates the initial problem. I've found that balancing to the higher heel and leaving the horse to sort itself out almost always ensures that over time the higher heel rectifies itself and goes to what is a more normal height for that particular foot.

FWIW I don't think anyone on this thread has advocated making all 4 hooves look the same.

You have to trim and shoe the foot on the end of the leg and take the whole leg into consideration when you trim. If the horse has three dofferent shaped fee then I'm afraid you are stuck with it and you need to take things very slowly when influencing the shape. Alter the hoof radically and you'll lame the animal fartherup the leg.

I never trim one hoof to match another, each is trimmed on it's own merits and if that means one is more upright than the other, has a longer toe, higher heels, etc then so be it. Each foot should be trimmed correctly though and that for me means the wall of the hoof should be of even thickness throughout and mirror the shape of the sole. It's own sole, not that of the foot on the leg opposite it.

You need to see the horse move too before making any decisions about how you are going to go about trimming or shoeing him.

Yes.

However you also need to know enough to recognise when an unbalanced hoof is causing the horse to alter it's natural stride pattern or how it holds its body and the knock-on effects this can have on muscles and other connective tissue. Sometimes an upright shoulder is only that way because of the way the horse is holding itself to accommodate an unbalanced hoof, sometimes the unbalanced hoof is there to compensate for a dodgy shoulder that can't be fixed. It's knowing which is the case and when that makes for a good trimmer/farrier.