Lyons' Cure for a Spooky Horse

[Tootsie4U]

The Calm/Head Down Cue.

I met with a Lyons trainer today to discuss my issues with Bonfire, particularly his spooking and fear of doors.

The trainer, very confidently, said that all that needs to be done is to get the horse to lower his head.

When the head is lowered, according to an article he pulled out to read to me, the part of the brain that *was* producing adrenaline (from the spooky stimuli) switches to produce endorphines. The endorphines relax the horse and the horse, I guess, learns to accept/tolerate/ignore what was spooking him.

Is it actually that simple? I realize that the 'lowering' must become an automatic response to a cue before it'd work every time.

Any Lyons people out there care to elaborate or discuss?

[Shadowlark]

hmmm

I have nothing of real value to add to this train of thought.. but would be curious to see where it leads you.

I pick up Lyon's magazine when it has something that interests me. I find it generaly down to earth and sensible. I also like that they put out articles on other ways of training not JUST thiers.

But I never like the fixing your issue is as simple as... statement.

When Splash had door issue because a kid scarred him on purpose as he came around the arena as a joke.. I used the clicker to fix it. The conditioned reinforcer did the trick as he started to associate passing this spot with his reinforcorer until he forgot about the door entirely.

[Tootsie4U]

Two Morgans with door issues...? :rolleyes:

I had a subscription to Perfect Horse for a few years. I collected many good articles and you're right they/he's very sensible to his approaches. I even got to watch him at a few demo's and clinics through the years. So much redundancy though its hard to stay awake :o

Anyway, to add to my own thread:

I wonder, that while the endorphins are being released, the horse goes back to the thinking side of his brain. Which then allows you to get his attention back...

Could that be....?

[julia gulia]

Psychological dominance seems to be best achieved by teaching the horse to yield in as many ways as possible. We gain control without violence .......teaching the horse to yield, invading his space and achieving his 'focus of attention'. The way I understand it, teaching the horse to lower his head by pressure from the top of his neck will assist in getting the horse's respect through postural submission and he will become quieter as well. Head down is the universal sign of submission (as in cowering) So, the way I see it the psychological effect is key, as it seems to be the reason for the relaxation that comes through submission. The calm down cue shouldn't be used often. Are you thinking of this for Bonfire? I just don't know if it would be something I would teach for a "specific" problem. hmmmm need to think on this some more:) I have no idea about the endorphins....not sure if the head down releases endorphins although that is a good question. It's just that a horse will lower his head (to eat grass ) only when he feels 'safe and relaxed' so if his head is down (because he is responding to the cue you have taught) then he instantly relaxes his whole body. The fact that you have taught him to do it on cue also has a psychological affect on him. Just my take on it.....I use it very rarely......Once the horse has learned it....you don't need him to lower all the way to the ground....the flexing works much the same way..Just my opinion and experience with it for what it's worth!

[Tootsie4U]

Its not something I've done with B before. The question really comes from my experience that B will perform whatever (rein backs, TOF, TOH, lateral movements, and give to the bits) but doesnt stop the spook. In other words, he goes on autopilot doing what I ask him to do (yielding physically but not mentally) but doesnt bring his attention back away from the thing that is spooking him.

If the endorphin theory is real, maybe it'd be a different approach for him. I can't do anything physically to get him to his thinking side of the brain, so maybe if the calm down cue theory carries some weight, it might be our missing link based on pure biology???

[julia gulia]

Does he react this way for anything that scares him? or only when he has to deal with the doors? I would say that regardless of the endorphin theory ( which I will be researching a.s.a.p.:D )...I have found the head down cue to work when I really needed it to.

[Tootsie4U]

He is an above average spooky horse, IMO. He's very sensitive to his surroundings. On average, he'll just shy at things - dive in or jump sideways. The doors, on the otherhand, elicit a true 'flight' response - he'll run, not far, but he runs....

OMG - I have just had a flash back thinking of the first time he ran away with me. I think I know concretely where this fear stems from! Im going to have to think about this some more...

[julia gulia]

aha....a breakthrough moment!!

[laura jeanne]

T-
My first RI got a horse that had never had any training and the first thing she taught him was to lower his head. She would hold the reins up in front of her face with one hand and the other would go in front of them and put pressure on towards her stomach. As soon as he would start to put his head down, she would release. He would walk around while she was riding him with his nose almost on the ground after a while.

Anyway, she said that it tells the horse "come to me." She couldn't really explain what she meant by that but I imagine it was about the horse looking to her for, I'm guessing safety, direction . . . ??? Everything maybe?

[Tootsie4U]

I wish it went as far as a break through :D ... I may have pinpointed where this all started though...

Interesting LJ, interesting...

[julia gulia]

I wish it went as far as a break through :D ... I may have pinpointed where this all started though...

Interesting LJ, interesting...

I would call that a breakthrough....can you remember everything that happened? Write it down... and add to it as you remember.

[Zimbah]

Hi Tootsie,
the 'head down' cue is a major part of clicker training (Alexandra Kurland method) - it's definitely not a dominance thing, as you don't even need to teach it by putting pressure on the head. It's a calming position for a horse to be in (nose right down to the floor). Some horses that have spent a lot of time and repetition of the head down cue even learn to drop their head themselves if they get scared, and once they've dropped their heads they calm down :cool:

[capalldubh]

the 'head down' cue is a major part of clicker training (Alexandra Kurland method) - it's definitely not a dominance thing, as you don't even need to teach it by putting pressure on the head. It's a calming position for a horse to be in (nose right down to the floor). Some horses that have spent a lot of time and repetition of the head down cue even learn to drop their head themselves if they get scared, and once they've dropped their heads they calm down

Funnily enough, Alex Kurland is quite a strong supporter of John lyon's methods, but achieves the ends a bit differently. However she does recommend using (very light) poll pressure to get head down, but then rewards using a clicker.

OTOH, you can also train head down with no poll pressure by shaping (a la Karen Pryor), so the horse will drop head on cue (and keep it down as long as you want). Since this involves no pressure and only positive reinforcement, it would be hard to see how it's linked to dominance... It is certainly true that horses are calm when their heads are down, but I would say it was hard to tell whether the head lowering calmed them or whether they had to be calm (and trusting) enough to contemplate lowering their heads... It's an interesting question.

[KarinUS]

I am just subscribing to see what the breakthrough was. :D...

[KarinUS]

Oh and another question:
How have you been dealing with your own spookiness? (breathing, bearing down, soft eyes, etc.). Do you feel you have completely conquered it?

[teabiscuit]

what an interesting thread,
as an aside, i've seen long, low and round outline recommended for spooky horses here in the english horse mags, your horse i think it was.

not the same, but along the same lines

[Bebe]

I've found it works to a degree with my mare, but I taught it via clicker training as she out-stubborned me when I tried to do it by applying poll pressure! Getting them to chew has a similar psychological effect so giving a titbit in fraught situations can help defuse things.

What actually works a whole lot better is taking the time myself to mirror her stance and direction of vision, take a second to consider it and then very obviously relax, making a big deal of it all being ok. It works every time without fail. It's a technique that is in Lucy Ree's book (Understanding the Horses Mind) and is simply a case of having the herd leader (which should be you) acknowledge that a herd member has discovered a possible danger, check it out and then let them know it's nothing to worry about. I probably look a bit daft doing it but I don't really care. It's saved me from getting trampled on a couple of times.

On a slight tangent, are you sure that he's not deficient in something? It's just that the over-reaction to stimulus is classic magnesium deficiency.

[Tootsie4U]

It's just that the over-reaction to stimulus is classic magnesium deficiency.

Yep, testing that out. I put him on a 4500 mg Mg supp about ten days ago. So far, no good. The directions suggest feeding it for 21 days before significant results...

I would say it was hard to tell whether the head lowering calmed them or whether they had to be calm (and trusting) enough to contemplate lowering their heads... It's an interesting question.

Sure is!

Karin, while Julia was asking if he only goes nutso at the doors, I got to thinking about the degree of spookiness and thats what I had the epiphony and remembered back to the very first time. I had just started him and we were working in a large indoor at the walk. A dog that had been sleeping inside the arena beside his owner who was giving instruction at the time suddenly caught sight of a cat and took off after it. He zipped within a few feet of Bonfire as we were rounding the side near the exit door. The cat ran up into the viewing loft with dog in tow. In their commotion, they sent about a dozen metal chairs flying and a few landed down by the door opening. Bonfire took off at a full gallop, making my saddle unbalanced. It started to slide under his belly and I couldnt hang on so went out the side door. This happened at the short end of the arena on the curve so when I went out the door, I slid directly in front of his path of travel. If he hadnt hit the brakes and jumped sideways he would have killed me. The skid marks from him slamming the brakes came within inches of my landing marks.

Now, I could never forget that incident, but it wasnt until now that I just realized that could have started the entire anxiety about doors. I sure dont blame him - that was scary as heck. Possibly he has always retained his uncertainty but it has escalated out of control now. At this new place, there are always dogs coming and going out of the arena - they even dug a hole underneath the main large door so they can squeeze out. Once, a dog was being asked to climb the mountain of hay bales on the other side of the door to fetch a ball. Seems kinda reminiscent to me...

[teabiscuit]

i'm convinced...

now what happens?
xx

[Shadowlark]

I am hearing Splash's issue all over again - the only difference being that I tackled it right away after it happened so it didn't escalate to the same level you guys are now at. It came down to years of dog training kicking into over drive to correct the socialization "issue" before it became a future problem. Resulting in me my clicker and my pony reconditioning doors entirely. It sounds like you have the nail on the head.

By the time we were done my friend could run thru the arena door carrying a flowing tarp over her head and run across the arena with Splash carrying on with barely a look at the flaming idiot..

[Bling]

I recently had my first formal instruction in starting a horse, which I shared in the regular Training part of the forum. I can see my trainer qualifies as "natural" although he said he wasn't a Parelli trainer. Anyway, he STARTS with "de-sensitizing" which is just getting a horse used to his tools. He works up to scary things. In my case, the sessions not only focused my horse's attention, it got her thinking. She was most terrified of a plastic bag, but now as soon as she sees I'm doing the "smacking routine" she stands quietly and watches. She's learning (I hope) to think about alarming things before giving in to panic! ;)

[Bebe]

Yep, testing that out. I put him on a 4500 mg Mg supp about ten days ago. So far, no good. The directions suggest feeding it for 21 days before significant results...

That's only 4.5g per day, anecdotal results in the UK are showing that this is nowhere near enough for some horses. For example my mare (who grazes Mg deficient pasture) gets 10g supplementation per day and she was nowhere near as bad as Bonfire sounds.

Might be worth adding a bit more (it's got a big safety margin, unless you feed masses he'll just pee out any he doesn't need).

Other things can inhibit the utilisation of Mg, I had a very interesting conversation with a nutritionist about it once. I can't remember the details now unfortunately but maybe it's worth delving into his diet in depth (soil analysis, hay analysis, breakdown of any commercial feed, etc) with someone who really knows their stuff?

[Tootsie4U]

That's only 4.5g per day, anecdotal results in the UK are showing that this is nowhere near enough for some horses.
Might be worth adding a bit more (it's got a big safety margin, unless you feed masses he'll just pee out any he doesn't need).

Really!?!? The stuff I bought had the most Mg that I could find. Other supps only had between 750-1300 mg!

What about just doubling the dose then of the same product?

[capalldubh]

Really!?!? The stuff I bought had the most Mg that I could find. Other supps only had between 750-1300 mg!

What about just doubling the dose then of the same product?

Yep, mine gets more than that - but for his feet. I used to buy the MgOx tablets from my local health food store - 200 tabs in a bottle, each tablet 250mg, he used to get 20 ground up each day, so 5g. :eek: Now we have the powder, it's measured in mls, and he gets about 30ml daily (i.e. 2 tbsps measure), which works out more than the 5g but I'm not sure how much. I was told he could have 50ml for up to 2 weeks if his feet got worse.

[KateWooten]

I was told 50g a day :eek:

Most supplements do have magnesium in them but no where near enough, normally they have 3-6 grams but the horse needs 50 grams a day.


No manufactured horse supplements have anything like that amount in. It is fed as a supplement to cattle in the form of its simplest salt - Magnesium Oxide, and it's cheap. Cheap and heavy - I guess that could be a reason it's not in the more expensive supplements ? A 50 lb bag costs me $7 and I've had it nearly 6 months so far and still haven't made a dent in it.

[Bebe]

What about just doubling the dose then of the same product?

I would whilst you've got it, as long as doing that isn't going to overdose on other things that might be harmful (unlikely but worth checking). There's no point spending more money if it's not going to do the trick at any dose.

FWIW, I saw results from Mg supplementation within a week or two and lots of people I've spoken to have found the same to be true so if you haven't seen an improvement at the higher dose in 21 days Mg deficiency is unlikely to be the problem.

I was told 50g a day

I don't know if this is correct but if it is you have to remember that even deficient grazing land does contain some Mg, as does hay and other feeds. You don't need to worry about feeding the full amount per day via supplementation.