Switching off the engine?

[CurlyWurlyRach]

Ok, I know im abit arrogant at times and im not all that great at listening to adviced when I dont want it but this time im humbly asking for help and i PROMISE to listen and try to understand (main reason i dont listen is usually because i dont understand).

When Curly decides she doesnt like the idea of what i want her to do she, instead of doing a downwards transition when pressure is applied on the reins (yank - i was desparate, pull, half halt), often gets more and more collected and 'springs' up instead of slows down. She's got incredably powerful warmblood action and it almost shoots me out of the saddle every time - if i could harness that into dressage in the school....*dreams* it looks fantastic but its very unnerving!

Is there a way of 'shutting down' her hindquarters to stop her collecting up (which i have no doubt will turn into a rear if i dont let her go where she wants - then we turn round and try again). I want to stop the power building up - currently i try to turn her head but she reacts badly to any pressure and tends to jog sideways with her nose tucked into her chest.

She was doing it badly tonight in a kimblewick with a curb chain and does it in a french link eggbutt snaffle too.

If anyones nice enough to help me can i have IDIOT-PROOF instructions on 'shutting her down' please?

Thanks :)

Rach (who has just been sacked from weekend job and so is skint!)

[jenren!!]

Why have you been sacked??

I would say 1 word, and that word is: legs. Get your legs on her then she cant go anywhere. You have her between your legs the only way is forward, and if that means forward into a downward transition so be it.

[CurlyWurlyRach]

yes but forward quickly becomes upwards, she goes up instead of forwards and sometimes for variety she goes backwards....lol

she is alot better when i ride with plenty of leg but suddenly jerks to a stop, tried to spin round and then jogs with her nose tucked in and i almost go flying out of the saddle - darn her and her beautifully springy showjumpery botty....

[Joyscarer]

Do you restrict your body movement at the same time to give her the cue to do a downward transition?

[mayoguinness]

Hows her hindqauter yielding?? If you've got controle of her hindqauters you've as good as got controle of her pase ;)

[Bling]

Lots been written here about the one rein stop---I think you should give it a try. I'm not an expert at this but here goes: First, on the ground, gently bring your horse's head around to the saddle, about where your leg would be. She'll move probably. Keep going round till she stops (be patient) and gives a tuck with her nose, as if to say, I give in. Immediately release the rein. Pet her. Do it about 4-5 times each way. When she has learned this (it may take a few days or longer) I'd recommend you do it after you mount. This is supposed to show your horse that you can stop her whenever you want. (You do stand still a few moments after mounting, right?) I'm kind of new to this, but I use it as a mild rebuke when things start getting too "active" for me. (I'm not so young and athletic as I'd like.) Yesterday, it even worked to stop my mare from balking! Yes, the stop stopped her from stopping.:D

[mayoguinness]

Yeah and if you get this and the put a little leg on you should get your yield;)

[KateWooten]

Yes, ditto what Bling says... start training the one-rein stop long before you actually use it. So, ok, you need to use it right now .. but it will take a couple of weeks maybe before you can use it with Curly in that context, so be patient.

Start with the flexing of her nose to your knee. You might do 5 or 6 each side, say, and at first she might not bend very much - yu're aiming for her nuzzly nose on your toe - but you mustn't pull it all the way round. You just keep gentle pressure on it, til you feel her 'soften' and try - you're looking for her to try to find what you're asking from her at this stage. If you think she's 'tried' then drop the rein like a hot potato, give her a break, and do it again.

Once you've got that calm and natural (2-3 days ?) then you start using leg. So, left rein, nose to boot, and left leg back a bit and ask her to step over. Now this part is WAAAYYy easier if you've already played with it from the ground with your stick and string.

The problem with doing it from their back straight off is often they'll step around a bit and you think 'aha ! Job Done!' ... but you really need thos back legs to cross over .. the near one crossing over in front of hte far one. That's what takes the power out.

So you're ready to start it under saddle - bu again, do it just at a halt first. Then when you're really good at that, do it from a trot. Only allow a couple of trot strides, then immediately shut her down. Over and over again. Do it as an exercise '3 step stop' so you trot 3 and stop over and over. It's quite important to stick to that rhythm because you're establishing a new 'conditioned response' in your horse. Repetition is everything here.

Now long-term, I can see it working for you, just like you said - and yu don't have to abandone your 'english' aids either - it doesn't interfere with them, in fact it enhances them. You should be able to ask for a slowing within a pace, or a slow down of pace... and Curly responds instantly and softly - no bracing ... well, if she doesn't then you have your one-rein-stop as a back-up cue ... 'Now, Curly, I mean Now!' and shut her down.

What's really wonderful for you, if it works out, is that you'll never have to get cross with her - because she has the choice - do it Curly, when I ask you politely, or guess what - we spin in circles for a while til you do it anyway !

Good luck with it, and keep asking questions - there are all sorts of pics, videos people can post if there's any of it you're not sure about ... or you could post pics of your attempts if it's not going great ? It is so much easier to show than to explain !!!

[CurlyWurlyRach]

the one rein stop aids seem very similar to a turn on the haunches - which she knows well.

so when she decides to stop dead, i ask her to bend her nose to my foot (which i do to stop her rearing anyway - shes good at touching my foot but sometimes 'forgets' what i want and jogs off with her neck braced sideways).
We'll have a go at it on the ground first - we did start practising it around christmas but let it slide when i got a saddle.

so in theory, its not actually a 'stop' as in no movement is it? actually yes, reading again it is. Would a full cheek bit help with moving her nose round? cant afford one currently but i can save up....

so im aiming for, in idiot language, her nose on my shoe and crossed legs, presumably that means she'd stop moving?

[NoviceNic]

But if she is anything like Captain, he is still in full gallop with his nose facing my toes...:eek: :rolleyes:

[eml]

I have an older showjumper in the riding school who does this. In his case it is an ideal learning curve as it only gets interesting when the riders seat is saying go and hands saying stop but his good downwards transitions only really happen when the rider uses back and seat with very little hand following through.

I was taught years ago by someone who trained the 'baby' racehorses in Newmarket and she was convinced that on exciteable horses dropping the reins and stirrups was the best way to stop. Not to be tried litterally but in essence she was right, drop your weight and leave the head alone.

[CurlyWurlyRach]

I was taught years ago by someone who trained the 'baby' racehorses in Newmarket and she was convinced that on exciteable horses dropping the reins and stirrups was the best way to stop. Not to be tried litterally but in essence she was right, drop your weight and leave the head alone.

Thats exactly what one of the lads from the yard told me (not one of the 'give it a smack' types), he made me literally drop my reins and stirrups, i have no idea if it worked as I bailed out shortly afterwards! some nitwit on a mini-motorbike went flying past the obviously distressed horse....

maybe its a showjumper thing....Curlys trained as one as she has a jumping canter that blows me away...when i ask for it! she can canter as slow as a walk but then she pulls the same trick outside and its not as nice...

[Tootsie4U]

I've read it somewhere that the one rein stop should not be used as a common everyday aid. Its an emergency thing and should only be used that way.

Unfortunately, if she's resorted to ignoring yanks in a kimberwick, this is a fairly serious problem.

If the reins aren't working, then quit using them. I'd say the best course of action is to get her to pay attention to your seat more. She *should* slow down when your seat slows down. It'll take some retraining on your part to get her to start cueing into this. If done correctly, she'll start "listening" within a days time.

And of course, the NH version of removing the engine is a good old fashion disengagement of the HQ. If she can already do that, then give that a go.

[CurlyWurlyRach]

she doesnt ignore reins, she just doesnt do a downwards transition - i get immense collectiuon instead which shoots me up and forwards in the saddle so im off her back, which she knows as an aid for ''giddy up''. It also makes me feel really insecure.

Ive read somewhere that the one rein stop should be used on rearers, is that the case?

[julia gulia]

I've read it somewhere that the one rein stop should not be used as a common everyday aid. Its an emergency thing and should only be used that way.

Unfortunately, if she's resorted to ignoring yanks in a kimberwick, this is a fairly serious problem.

If the reins aren't working, then quit using them. I'd say the best course of action is to get her to pay attention to your seat more. She *should* slow down when your seat slows down. It'll take some retraining on your part to get her to start cueing into this. If done correctly, she'll start "listening" within a days time.

And of course, the NH version of removing the engine is a good old fashion disengagement of the HQ. If she can already do that, then give that a go.

Tootsie...the one rein stop is the disengagement of the hindquarters. Is there a different one rein stop that I don't know about? And it isn't used as an emergency stop...(well it can be used that way :p ) but if it is taught to the horse properly from the ground first then the full use of it is eventually not needed. What is the N.H.version of the disengagement of the hindquarters?

[Tootsie4U]

the one rein stop is the disengagement of the hindquarters.

I guess it can be, ultimately.

The one rein stop, from my understanding, should be used in a panic situation when the horse is bombing off with you, you have absolutely no control, and are heading toward disaster. In that scenario, to immediately expect a DHQ, you'd flip over. The one rein stop then is where you pick up one rein and circle very large, down smaller and smaller until you have enough control to snap the HQ (if needed).

The simple DHQ NH-style takes away the horses ability to push forward because its legs are busy side stepping.

[KateWooten]

The one rein stop, from my understanding, should be used in a panic situation when the horse is bombing off with you, you have absolutely no control, and are heading toward disaster. In that scenario, to immediately expect a DHQ, you'd flip over. The one rein stop then is where you pick up one rein and circle very large, down smaller and smaller until you have enough control to snap the HQ (if needed).


HELL NO !

NEVER USE THE ONE REIN STOP IN A PANIC SITUATION

NEVER USE THE ONE REIN STOP ON A HORSE THAT IS ALREADY BOMBING OFF WITH YOU.

(Holy Cow, I don't think I have ever shouted before) Use of the one-rein-stop in a panicking horse who is already moving at speed is likely to result in a major wreck.

The One-rein-stop can function as a 'handbrake' - an emergency brakse, for sure ... BEFORE the horse takes his first step of a bolt. You act BEFORE trouble starts. You smoothly ask his nose to give to your foot, and disengage his hindquarters until he comes to a complete stop. His nose to your foot becomes a programmed response, because you have trained, and trained, and trained for it. You can spin his butt around with energy - as long as he hasn't built up a lot of forward momentum, you can get that butt spinning round as fast as you like but you have to hold til you come to a complete stop.

I think it's time for a .sig change .....

[KateWooten]

Here's a neat short article : http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/onereinstop.shtml

[Tootsie4U]

If you merely expect a disengagement when your horse is at a full gallop, yes, you'll get hurt, and likely your horse too. Not debating that point... ;)

[Tootsie4U]

Another interesting article: http://www.westernhorseman.com/stories/12262006/man_20061226002.shtml

Too bad they leave you hangin' at the end

[KateWooten]

hmmm... no.. there is lateral flexion involved, and there is some gttb, and at the end, the crucial part there is the disengage... but the whole maouvre is what's commonly known as the one rein stop. Nose round, softness, disengage to a stop. That's it in a nutshell.

I'm not sure this debate is helping CWR to understand how to get Curly's focus back on her rider when Curly starts getting emotional. In this instance, we're not talking about a bolting horse. We're talking about a bouncing, over-emotional, unfocussed horse who is not (for whatever reason) paying attention. Now, whatever method you would use to stop a bolting horse is another issue entirely. Personally, I hope I would use a one-rein-stop (lateral flexion + complete disengage) before the horse got going. If for whatever reason the horse got away from me, then of course I wouldn't think of jerking his head off - we'd both go flying for sure. In that case, I guess, if I was on a large flat field, with good enough footing.. .then I'd use the circling gently inwards method. That method seems to me to be remarkably limited, however, since it can not be used in lots of situations (because you need space around you).

Oddly enough, I don't know if that method works, because I've never had to implement it.

The one-rein-stop as I know it, is a practiced, smooth, conditioned response that can be used as a complete shutdown, no matter what the potential problem. Shut-down, regroup, think where to go next.

[sheryl]

I think its very difficult to give advise in this sort of situation. Everyone just assumes that the horse is at fault, but no-one knows the reason why she's doing it.

You need to find the cause of the problem before you can attempt to cure it...

It would be so much easier to judge the problem if we could see Curly in action. Would it be possible to video Curly in the school with a camcorder? Rach may even see for herself what the problem is then. And. if she doesn't she could show it to other people, to get ideas;)

There could be a number of reasons for Curly's behaviour, such as;

General over exuberance, and not enough exercise. How often is she turned out every day? Could she be lunged before she's ridden?

Has she got a problem with the bit? A lot of horses will resist the action of a curb. And lots don't like the nutcracker action of a jointed bit. How about trying a plain straight bar? Have you got a staight bar pelham? You could maybe try it on the top ring, with no curb chain:confused: . Maybe worth a try.

Is Rach relaxed when she's in the saddle. A tense rider, who's maybe hanging on too tight, with their hands, and their seat, could easily cause these problems. No offense Rach:) . Obviously I've never seen you ride, so I could be completely wrong there;) . My old pony was constantly on a hyper, and he'd only relax, when you gave him his head. Its best to learn to stop using a relaxed seat aid. Does Curly understand voice aids too? Maybe would be a good idea to teach them all over again, on the lunge.

All I'm trying to say is, try to rule out all possibilities. I'm sure you'll get there in the end:)

P.s. What happened about your farrier Rach, and her sore feet?

[Lucyad]

I think that she is probably just doing what she has been taught - to collect, but stay in canter, to enable her to be set up for the next jump. This is somethng that I am trying to teach Oscar to do just now! I think that from my limited experience, the difference between an ask for collection and an ask for a downward transition is legs and seat. Either you arent making the differentiation strong enough, or she is ignoring you. OK the one rein stop is a good thing for safety's sake, but long term you want to be able to move down through the gaits without bending her in either direction! To do this you will need to get her listening to you seat and leg aids, and make sure that you are doing them clearly enough.

Now how to do this, I'm less sure (as I say, I have the opposite problem).

[CurlyWurlyRach]

hrm, i had a go at it on the ground today but she jut walked in circles with her nose bent round....she did eventually stop and got told she was a good horsey but i was too dizzy to move :p

is that normal at first? she pivots on her front legs and waddles round with the backs, occasionally crossing. she's alot better at it on one rein aswell, on the other she wont entertain the idea of bending (shes had all the physicals checked out and its related to the old strain in her bum but its not painful, just not used to it).

[KateWooten]

Hmmmm .... .you've gotta remember that I've almost only worked with young horses ..... the only older previously trained horse I have is Summer, the big fat stroppy mare, and she took longer to 'get it' than the babies, but she still got it quite quickly. Do you remember when we had the long discussion with .... errr.. I forget who ... with an older horse who just wouldn't bend... I 'think' the answer is this :
- You can't expect a perfect step-over first time
- You have to be supper good at noticing the try. She doesn't know what you're asking, so you have to help her by at first, rewarding her attempts
- You have to 'raise your cue' - starting very soft, and getting louder - and you have to go as loud as you need - don't slack off because you think she will get annoyed, or she might kick you - once you've started asking, you need to see it through. (unless of course, you really are in danger then you drop everything and keep yourself safe, of course)
- You have to build it up step-by step.

So, you bend her nose round ? Good. Reward her. You might want to let it rest there for the day. Part of the ethos of this sort of training is 'setting the horse up for success' and 'building in the try' - if you are consistent, with any good training, you have a horse who is always trying to figure out what you're asking. Curly's jump training is a good example of a successful outcome - there's no question that when she's in the arena jumping, her attitude is 'Yes, Mum, what next, point me at it... ' She's all try. It's that 'willingness to try' attitude that we want to build in to her groundwork... with the long-term view of it transferring to her 'out of the arena' work.

Ok, next then, when you are asking her hind end to step over, how are you asking ? You probably want to raise the hand nearest the horse head some more, so as to block any forward movement, and then with a non-bendy stick tap the air up high by her hip. Now, at this point, does she try to move away from the stick ? If yes, then stop and reward her. Be much quicker to accept what she's doing and reward her. The reward is just stopping the tapping, and perhaps rub her face.

Ask for very little, and reward very quickly.

[mayoguinness]

hrm, i had a go at it on the ground today but she jut walked in circles with her nose bent round....she did eventually stop and got told she was a good horsey but i was too dizzy to move :p

is that normal at first? she pivots on her front legs and waddles round with the backs, occasionally crossing. she's alot better at it on one rein aswell, on the other she wont entertain the idea of bending (shes had all the physicals checked out and its related to the old strain in her bum but its not painful, just not used to it).

Yep certaintly is normal. Had to do it with Mayo for ages before he would give it to me. Just keep going and reward when she gives it to you:)

[Bling]

I'm new at this and I only got part of the one rein stop. :rolleyes: But it's still been valuable! Like Rach said, when you start your horse goes around and around, but my trainer said not to take any note of "giving" until the horse has stopped moving. That was the main thing. Then any teeny attempt would suffice for a release. We never got to any disengagement. I'll try to develop this.
Note about turn on the haunches: it's not at all "disengagement". The turn is a forward movement, with all the steps of the gait taken, in order, but the forehand steps are to one side, whereas the hind steps land only fractionally ahead. Disengagement, as I understand it, means taking the leg out of its useful place---a leg that's stepping in front of another can't be used for anything. Gotta stop there. Among other things, it helps get my horse's attention back to me.