Slightly odd problem - Would NH help?

[ClaireBear_nz]

In February, I got a 15hh grey gelding named Tally. So far, he's been an angel about everything, is lovely to handle, and is very good at everything we've tried.
The problem I've found with him is he doesn't really understand personal space, or the fact that most people don't actually want to be licked and chewed on. If you can imagine a very large grey Labrador, thats Tally in a nutshell! He was kept on his own for four years, so that wouldn't have helped. I really wish I could turn him out with a real "horse" so he could socialise properly, but my other horse turns rather demonic in the paddock, and has a tendency to chase horses into corners then back-end them. I've seen her bring a 16.2hh half Warmblood to the ground, so it's really not a viable option for a friend for him!

Is there a way to teach him to stand out of my personal space, so other people (eg non-riders) can pat him without him drooling all over them?
I've tried asking him to move backwards, but he refuses to stand there, and comes right back!

[Skib]

This would be the first lesson for any NH trainer - or indeed any good trainer I've seen.
I dont have time to write you an essay, but please be aware that NH is a blanket term covering a variety of different approaches. Some of them are more confrontational than others. Some may be more instant than others and so be immediately more attractive?
I happen to be coming to the conclusion - I dont have a horse - but handle riding school and livery horses - that in the long term, and avoiding unsforeseen consequences, the non- confrontational, quiet handling might be best, e.g. Michael Peace or Mark Rashid style. And be more likely to preserve your good relationship with a nice horse.
So be careful what you choose.

[Bay Mare]

I agree completely with Skib.

I would also second Michael Peace and Mark Rashid ... and add Richard Maxwell and Kelly Marks :)

I've had a lot of success with a mix of Kelly and Mark with my uber dominant bossy mare. Although I've had to stand my ground with her I've never liked the 'alpha orientated' methods as I believe that they would cause us more problems than they solved.

[mayoguinness]

Yep NH would defanatly help :D If you get a good instructer - I could reccomend one but I see your in New Zealand and at the moment she lives in the uk and perth so it might be a bit far out ;)

[suneanarab]

i would go for what has been said above apart from the kelly marks thing. she is confrontational and does use excessive force in the form of tightening halters and pulling back. you don't see michael peace doing that, or myself for that matter.

i do agree though that you do need someone who knows what they are doing to teach him to start with, and also to teach you.

[mayoguinness]

Really, didn't know that about Kelly Marks, bare that in mind for the future ;)

[Lili & Morgan]

ClaireBear_nz lives in new Zealand, so I doubt, she would have access to Michael Peace or Kelly Marks :p

I am just wondering, Is your horse bullying you, when he comes into your space?

Does he move you around by head-butting you? Does he nip you?
OR
does he just come into your space for asking for lots of cuddles?

Maybe he does not show you disrespect?, Maybe he just does not know what personnal space means.

But yes NH training will help with your problem, Parelli, Silversand etc ...

[icegirl]

Really -is that right about Kelly Marks, I knew she sometimes uses Dually halters etc but her approach didnt come across as confrontational to me. Maybe Im missing something. I havnt actually seen her work but have read both of her books on horse handling.

[Skib]

ClaireBear_nz lives in new Zealand, so I doubt, she would have access to Michael Peace or Kelly Marks

I'd suggest reading both Peace and Kelly.Very few peole can send their horse to one of the top trainers in person.
Most of us educate ourselves by reading books and watching dvds or videos of trainers working. Here in the UK most of us know about Lyons, Dorrancew,Branaman etc only from their books.

I am lucky to have watched Michael Peace working with police horses here in the UK, but I had imagined this owner being able to do the work herself? And as a first step teaching her horse to lead and keep out of her personal space.

Even if one is employing a professional rather than working with horses oneself, it is a good thing to know which trainers have most influenced them?

[ClaireBear_nz]

Lili&Morgan, he doesn't come in to nip or push me around, he just comes in to play, and fiddle, and lick, and slobber, and assist with what I'm doing. He has absolutly no idea what personal space means. He isn't rude, or pushy, or bolshy, or nasty, he just thinks that everyone adores him, and wants to have their face licked while they're doing up his rugs!

I would hope to be able to teach him just to back off and wait for cuddles for a bit. I don't mind hugging him and having him slobber all over me, when it's my decision to let him. But having him licking the bare spot my t-shirt doesn't cover....it gets rather irritating!

[suneanarab]

i have pictures of her to prove it. she can't say that she didn't do it as the picture is in a book. you can see that she is pulling back against the horse. the horse is also pulling back with its head high in the air and the whites of it's eyes showing. the horse looks very stressed indeed. there just isn't any need to do it that way and if the horse was just reacting to something else she should have been going with the horse and not fighting it.

i've had alot of people contact me who have had problems with their horses after they have been to some of the above people. unfortunately the people haven't had the decentcey to go back and correct what they have got wrong. monty roberts has got law suits against him in america and there is a site dedicated to people who are very much against what he does. even past staff of his.

i have seen other advocates of monty do demo's round here and they were really bad and yet endorced. i supose that being confrontational is subjective to the person veiwing what is going on. however, compared to what i do it's very confrontational.

[Yann]

I don't think you can judge anything from a picture, Mike Peace's book is full of rearing horses but that doesn't reflect on his work. You need to see the whole thing, preferably in person and also judge the outcome. It's also worth bearing in mind that people's methods and approaches are evolving all the time and what someone might have done 5 years ago may not now reflect what they do now. I've watched some superb quiet horsemanship from recommended associates which I wouldn't have considered at all confrontational, Monty is however a different matter;)

To come back to the original question you need to decide what you are or aren't happy to accept from your horse and then make it happen, quietly and consistently and without fail. If he's not properly socialised though my guess is that this will be a lot more difficult and you'll have to be very patient. It might well be worth looking to see if there's someone local who can help you, but proceed with care and get recommendations, and read up as much as can.

[LodgeRopes]

ClaireBear..
As mentioned in this thread, there are many ways to skin a cat (not that I advocate the skinning of cats or any other critters) the trick is to find the method/techniques/style that you feel comfortable with. This usually means trial and error, and in NH, that also means expense.

probably the most easily digestable and straight forward text i can reccomend is
"finding the magic' by Dan Sumerel
Most of the techniques are round pen based, but the lessons can be adopted on a long line.

It sounds like you have a horse that is just a little in need of a few rules and re educated on acceptable behaviour in the relationship.

If you cant find the book, i may be able to send something across the trench to a kiwi mate

cheers
Rob
http://www.lodgeropes.com

[HorseWhisp3r3r]

You say he won't stop licking you ......

Out of interest has he got enough salt in his diet ?

[Skib]

Two comments only.
It is well known that this board includes people who very much value Monty Roberts' British associate Kelly Marks. And others who bitterly criticise.
Many threads on the NH part of New Rider have descended into bitter argument.
I am not as it happens a fan of join up. As an elderly woman addressing a relative newcomer whio asked about NH, I believe it right to encourage her to think for herself and not categorise trainers according to a brief comment on an internet board.

As for pressure. On occasion I have seen the most pacific trainers including Rashid apply as much pressure as it needs - may be more than I would have liked to use myself.

In this case of a horse mouthing its owner, out of greed or affection and coming into the owner's space, one might suggest that the horse is doing what it thinks the owner likes it to do (show affection). It is not a situation that calls for a mega confrontation with the horse -
Though some trainers might approach it that way as fundamental insubordination, I would not.

My favourite RS mare sounds quite like yours. She will push her head into you and nose you and lick if given the chance. Personally I dealt with it by hardening my heart. No more polos. No hand feeding from me. Rebuke her every time she uses her head on me, by removing her and pushing her back out of my space. Horses learn very quickly what a particular rider will allow. This mare and I don't do cuddly close affection any more, not on the ground. Unless I initiate some stroking as reward.
Being firm on the ground has not at all prevented our close liaison when I am riding. When I see her still nosing other clients, I realise people may think she loves me less than she loves them. But she is not; by keeping her distance,she is doing what she knows I want. My rule is that all horses have to do as I want.

Reading the description of the problem, it doesn't sound to me like a problem with your horse at all. The horse sounds lovely. If you alter your behaviour as its owner when this particular behaviour occurs,that should fix it.
And if one wants a guide to getting good behaviour from ones horse, Kelly Marks' Perfect manners, How to behave so your horse does too, is a very good readable introductory guide.

[Bling]

Your horse sounds so sweet! My filly is a bit like that, adorable---however...So one day last week I taught to back off, using the end of the lead rope and making myself look "big". (Actually was good for my posture.) I didn't have to hit hard, but I did smack her once lightly. She's very smart, and it took about 3 minutes. But now when I "swell up" she backs, and gives me a look as if to say, "You look pretty funny." (This might or might not be NH.)

[ClaireBear_nz]

I have my suspicisions he was hand raised, or at least didn't have much equine contact for a lot of his life. He doesn't really have any clue what to do with other horses.

I will try making myself "big" and getting him to back off, but he really doesn't respond to body language, or to anything people do. He doesn't really understand what I'm asking him to do, and thinks "wow, you look weird....can I have a cuddle now?"

I will do some reading on the subject as well. I generally don't feed him from the hand, and he has a salt lick, and gets some salt in his feed.

:D He is lovely, he's an absolute dream to ride, has a huge personality, and is talented! And he's very pretty!

[pengapenga]

Hi Claire

Tally sounds so sweet:D I have a similar problem with two of my horses. One being Frits and the other Mushu - Mushu would sit in your lap if he were small enough:D

[Bling]

Every horse "knows" body language. If he doesn't respond as you want, it's probably because he's taken the dominant end of the relationship. That doesn't mean he wants to beat you down; but he'll only "listen" to you if he cares to. To change positions (you becoming the dominant one) is harder than to start off that way. I'd suggest looking for a trainer to help. (To confuse your dear horse could make things worse than they are, IMO.)

[suneanarab]

there is a difference in applying pressure to ask the horse to do something and pulling back against the horse with as much pressure as you can. now i have seen kelly marks in action for myself and i simply don't like alot of what she does. i haven't been coming on here long enough to know who supports who and i'm not going to get into an argument about any of them. if the poster chooses to go down that route it is her choice. i just think that new commers to nh should know everything about what some people call nh. there is a hugh difference between someone who has a horse that is simply rearing, and one that is in panic and being pulled on.

as i said we all have different veiws on what is aceptable and what is not. for me personally pulling on the horse's head with a halter that tightens just isn't aceptable at all no matter what the horse is doing. it does what it does for a reason and our job is to hear what he is telling us. bullying comes in many forms and to me that is what this type of nh is. it's only my opinion which i give freely. it's up to everyone else to make their own mind up once they have the facts.

[india]

there is a difference in applying pressure to ask the horse to do something and pulling back against the horse with as much pressure as you can. now i have seen kelly marks in action for myself and i simply don't like alot of what she does. i haven't been coming on here long enough to know who supports who and i'm not going to get into an argument about any of them. if the poster chooses to go down that route it is her choice. i just think that new commers to nh should know everything about what some people call nh. there is a hugh difference between someone who has a horse that is simply rearing, and one that is in panic and being pulled on.

as i said we all have different veiws on what is aceptable and what is not. for me personally pulling on the horse's head with a halter that tightens just isn't aceptable at all no matter what the horse is doing. it does what it does for a reason and our job is to hear what he is telling us. bullying comes in many forms and to me that is what this type of nh is. it's only my opinion which i give freely. it's up to everyone else to make their own mind up once they have the facts.

Very good points suneanarab and I for one agree with you whole heartedly. :)

[appaloosahoney]

I totally agree with Suneanarab. It seems wrong to me to use force on a horse when other methods achieve the same result. I recently found a link on NR which (I'm still reading it so bear with me) just seemed perfect. The idea of trying to replicate the mututal respect pair bond that many horses enjoy, rather than the dominant submissive model that some NH practitioners adopt seems so much better. The link I followed was http://www.thenaturalhorse.org/ but if you search NR for friendship training (equine ethnology) you will find heaps. I dont know enough to say if any are better.
I must say that I have seen Michael Peace work, and he seemed really good. He spent ages with a horse who would not accept clippers, simply kicking the clippers around the arena, and by the end, the horse with no pressure whatever accepted them. Good luck, your chap seems lovely even if he doesnt understand your space, I hope that you will find a solution that will work for both of you but allow him to retain his natural love for you.

Best of luck

Kim

[Yann]

It seems wrong to me to use force on a horse when other methods achieve the same result.

I agree with that totally, but sometimes in some circumstances there might not be much alternative, and I think it's wrong to pretend otherwise. And if we're talking Equine Ethology aka Parelli then that's one of the more dominant training approaches anyway, escalating pressure is an integral part of it.

[india]

I agree with that totally, but sometimes in some circumstances there might not be much alternative, and I think it's wrong to pretend otherwise. And if we're talking Equine Ethology aka Parelli then that's one of the more dominant training approaches anyway, escalating pressure is an integral part of it.

No Yann, the Equine Ethology appaloosahoney mentioned is regarding 'Friendship Training' and nothing to do with the now deflunked Equine Ethology Centre (incidently, Parelli broke away from that as soon as it was legally possible);)

The 'Friendship Training' method was covered in a previous thread - it believes you can train a horse without any 'training' and have a 50/50 relationship.

[julia gulia]

How does one "train" a horse without any "training" :confused: How does one train anything or anyone without any training :confused:

[suneanarab]

i do believe that you can apply presure to a certain point in certain situations. however, if that presure causes the horse to give the wrong reaction so that it becomes upset you have to back off. with horses that lean into presure in an excessive way you can apply quite alot of presure (as in the progressive presure of parelli) and the horse won't mind as its playing the same game that you are.

unfortunatly for alot of horses this is not the case and the same presure is applied with horrid results. just because a horse finally accepts something and does it with no resistance doesn't mean that he is doing it willingly because he wants to..

in any pair bond you will still have one horse that is dominant over the other in terms od leadership. this happen in any walk of life no matter how close the bond is,one will always lead over the other. the trick is that you have to assert yourself as the leader so that your horse looks to you for that leadership. therefore in a tricky situation the horse will follow your lead instead of making his own mind up. this is the nature of horses and if you try to have a 50/50 relastionship there will be a conflict at some point. if neither of you take leadership then what would happen in a situation that the horse really wasn't sure about? do you leave him to make his own mind up? if not will he accept you as the one to follow?