natural horsemanship question

[K&K]

hi,


i'm interested in using natural horsemanship to create a bond between me & my new horse. she arrives on may 1 so i have some time to research it. i was wondering - is there any way i can try the natural horsemanship "idea" without paying money for parelli's courses and special equipment? does anyone know of a website that explains similar exercises, and does anyone know how to create "home made" equipment (by home made i mean buying a similar tool at a tack shop for a much lower price)?

thanks so much!

[heland]

Hi

This site shows you how to make a ropw halter, hope this helps www.ponyclubvic.org/howto/rhalter.html

There are quite a few parelli and other sites but I can't think of them at the moment.

[intouch]

is a lovely way to bond with your horse, Klaus Hempfling, available from Amazon etc. Have a look at my website, www.equininfo.co.uk, NaturalHorse for some links, Clicker training is good too.

[Ikon]

My suggestion would be to play the seven games. Especially the 'Friendl game' You don't need to have all the equipment for these games. I have personally used a lunge rope and a normal webbing halter.

http://www.visi.com/~jbly/equine/methods/seven_games/
http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/

These are two useful sites.
Cheers.

[Ame]

Pat Parelli has a book ("Natural Horsemanship") that explains most of his basic concepts (and some of the Level One tasks). It was written quite a while ago and the program has developed a lot since then - but it's still well worth the read. You may be able to borrow it from your local library, or buy it second hand on Ebay/Amazon.com?

The videos and level packs are rather expensive - but more than worth it. If money is tight perhaps you could find a Parelli student close by, who would be able to lend you a copy of the 7 Games Video?

As others have mentioned, many students make their own rope halters and lead ropes. You may find that your general run of the mill tack shop sells rope halters cheaply (ableit, some not great quality, but anything will do to begin with). Make sure the one you buy isn't nylon (nylon burns!)

Best of luck in your natural horsemanship adventures. Enjoy your new horse.

Kindest regards,
Ame

[jUmPingIsLifE]

renting video's??? buying books? sorry i couldn't be much help, the bond you can creat just grooming your horse and spending time out in the pasture with her!

[K&K]

thanks so much for all the advice & links!

just wondering, why do you need a rope halter for natural horsemanship? :confused:

[Miriam]

Pat Parelli has a list of his 'Seven games'. Cannot remember the site so you will have have a look for it.

[cvb]

There is a lady called Ellen Ofstad who has her own site
http://ellenofstad.com/
You can read it in English or Norweigan :D . The good thing is that the site has a review of all sorts of different nh gurus.

[Ikon]

thanks so much for all the advice & links!

just wondering, why do you need a rope halter for natural horsemanship?

***************************************************
You don't need a rope halter infact you don't really need the double braided marine ropes. Like I said, I have personally used a normal halter and alunge rope. A rope halter or jaquima just refines the messages you give the horses.

[Speedy]

Parelli stuff is MUCH cheaper if you buy outside UK. For a little over the price of the partnership pack in UK, I got the whole pack, halter, 12' line, carrot stick, savvy string and hackamore PLUS postage to UK from Australia. Try www.parelli.com.au (I think) or just parelli.com and then there's a link to the Oz site.

[Ame]

Rope halters/leads are easier to work with. They have a "live" feel to them and are much easier to communicate with. A rope halter teachs a horse to move off steady pressure (rather than lean into it) and follow a feel. I guess it's all about the feeling you get :)

Webbing halters don't give the same quick/instant release. Horses generally find them easier to lean into.

Some people like webbing.... perhaps play around with both and see which suits you best?

There are two articles on the Parelli Site:

"Why use Natural Tools?"

http://www.parelli.com/Main%20Pages/Tools%20Folder/about_tools.htm

and

"Level 1 Partnership Tools"

http://www.parelli.com/Main%20Pages/Tools%20Folder/partner_tools.htm

Despite the pieces being specifically about the Parelli brand tools, it may be worth a read and could help answer your questions. Specifically read the paragraphs in the second article about the "Horseman's Halter" and "12 foot line".

I use PNH gear because I'm yet to find anything better :) It's made purposefully for natural horsemanship by natural horsemen - and is world class stuff! It lasts forever and once you have the basics, you'll never need to buy anything else ever again. I wander into Tack Shops these days and walk around saying to myself "What can I buy?" "There's nothing here for me to buy?". I usually walk out again empty handed. Ha ha.

As Pat says:

"You should be able to tell a Natural Horse-Man by the tools he uses. But, you should also be able to tell a Natural Horse-Man by the tools he doesn't use."

[doris]

Try the Intelligent Horsemanship Association www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk. Kelly Marks' book Perfect Manners - How You Should Behave so Your Horse Does Too will give you lots of info on 'join up' etc. Saw her with Monty Roberts demo at Towerlands Braintree a few weeks ago - brilliant (both of them). I've done an introduction weeks course on humane handling at Redwings 2 years ago and have been hooked ever since.

[Crystal Fire]

at Parelli.com - I think you can now register for their on-line Parelli experience, and you can ask advice about the games.

[virtuallyhorses]

Someone's already mentioned Natural Horse Supply which is v good

GaWani Pony Boy (http://www.ponyboy.com) has some step-by-step exercises and none of them require any special gear

Kicking Back Ranch (http://www.kbrhorse.net/pag/train.html) is a really good resource - uses a pragmatic approach to training and incorporates many methods.

Start with simple things like - leading, move over, back up etc

[cvb]

also Lynn Palm at

www.lynnpalm.com

does an email newsletter. Previous newsletters have explained ground exercises and so on.

[dolly]

As some one that has known Richard Maxwell for a very long time i would like to clarify that he has never trained with Parelli, yes he has been to one or two demos, just as he has been to M Pease's, Kelly and Monty's.

He works on his own, has not trained anyone. Yes he was Monty's rider for a while about 8 years ago, before that he was in the Household Cavalry for 8 years as an instructor, before that the Pony Club!
He used to event and now occassionally Showjumps when he gets the time.

You may not like him although i doubt you KNOW him, but plenty of people do. Yes he has had a few failures, which he would admit, but the number is small in relation to the number of horses/owners he helps.

The next time you make a mistake in a job that you normally do well at, just think would you like to be judged on that one poor performance, because it seems to me that the likes of Max, Michael, Kelly and Monty are never allowed to make a mistake.

I don't think that any of the above are interested in ramming anything down anyones throat, if your not interested, great, not a problem this is after all a free country and you will never know what you missing.

[Kerry's Partner!!]

Well said!! I particularly liked what you said about people making mistakes. Isn't it strange that as ordinary people we actually welcome mistakes in a way (if we're the least bit intelligent, we expect to make mistakes - without mistakes we would never ever progress and learn anything knew after all) yet we often don't accept that other humans can make mistakes too!!

I often wonder whether the judgements we make about people like Mike, Monty, Kelly and Richard are based on heresay rather than our own experience. I know, for example, that there is a local yard which I could never consider sending my horse to because I was TOLD that they did xyz because that's what Max suggested worked!! I realise of course that this is hearsay - I've never met Max or seen one of his demonstrations - but, nevertheless, this has had a great impact on my decisions about where to "house" my horse.

Please, Mike, Monty, Kelly and Richard don't be offended by what I've said. I just want to illustrate that the impact you have during your demos etc. may not be exactly what you'd wish - you have no control over what others perceive about what you do and say. I know, from experience that Mike takes time to deal with this phenomenon BUT, my message I guess is that in some cases there is not enough emphasis on the INDIVIDUAL horse and it's own problems/challenges in life - so that some members of the audience actually perceive that there is only one way to complete a task/solve a problem and adopt that as their way of dealing with all of their horses.

[FRED]

Absolutely agree with the above two posts.

It can't be easy, but still they have dedicated their lives for the better of horse,and pass on their knowledge.
Much of their work in rehabilitating abused horse and horse that
require special needs is so often overlooked.

[dolly]

in response to Kelly's partner, you are absolutely right, so much damage is done by hearsay, i also noted your comment on the demos, its a bit like being stuck between a rock and a hard place, on one hand if people didn't do demos and magazine features etc. there would be no awareness and there certainly wouldn't be the move away from the very rigid trainings of the BHS that there has been, but some people do go away from a demo and get themselves into trouble. I know Michael Pease does try and do his bit, but to be honest they all do.

Max is very strong on this also and always says that there is more than one way of skinning a cat, and that not all methods suit all horses, to be honest that is how he has improved his own knowledge, when one thing doesn't work try another.

One of the reasons Max stopped backing youngsters in a demonstration situation is that very often he would be told "nice youngster" but the reality was they were often the youngster that had done the rounds and nobody had succeeded, well i don't know about you but a demo is the last place for such a youngster, as if it hadn't been terrified enough. (not all youngsters were set ups), so to eliminate this we just don't do it. i will say one thing though, Max never ever carried on with a horse if he thought that it wouldn't benefit a youngster and was never too proud to say that this is neither the time nor the place, so i would be interested to know which demo the above person went to. you might not like what he does but he has never deliberately set out to upset or harm a horse.

I'll tell you a story, but i won't mention any names. About four years ago he was doing a demo arranged by a third party, they brought in this youngster and its eyes were out on stalks, but the blokes that brought him said that he had come straight off the hills. Max did his thing but you could tell by the actions of these men that they were expecting something to happen. It went brilliantly, infact for a wild thing he was a star. Afterwards the men said to Max "we thought he might give you a bit more trouble than that" when asked why it transpired that they had brought him of the hills, they then locked him in a darkened stable for a week and fed him buckets of corn, "thought we would have a bit of sport" they said. That was the last time Max did a youngster in a demo.

Also i would like to comment on the "every horse is different", you are so right, which is why he never gives advice out over the phone, but people think that its because he wants their money, its a joke it is so hard to do the right thing, Max would do it all for free, but the reality is he has a family and employs people, he is the only person in his set- up now that actually works with his clients and their horses.

Anyway i have garbled enough, which i apologise for, its just that i feel quite strongly because, Max, believe it or not didn' set out to be where he is now it sort of all happened unexpectedly, it really bothers him when people email or call and tell him about some of the stuff people say when they don't know him, i know he is seriously thinking of moving abroad because this isn't why he chose to work with horses.

[cvb]

dolly - bit confused. Not commenting on your strength of feeling or (in fact) correctness ! But this thread was just asking for advise on suppliers, and I can not see much having a go at Max or any of the others.

I know there are others threads that do.

....so where did all of this come from ???

I think it would be a real shame if we drove good horsemen out of the country because people can not accept that there are no miracles and no quick fixes. We seem to be slow to say thanks and make nice noises, but quick to complain and bring someone down. Its costs nothing to say thank you !

It would be interesting to know if the culture elsewhere is so different ?

[dolly]

cvb, i'm sorry if you taken it wrongly, i was trying to answer some of kelly's partners points, and other comments.
1. about should they or shouldn't they do demos, treating horses as individuals.
2. somebodies comment on Max terrifying a youngster in a demo situation to the point that person felt sick to their stomach.
3 somebodies comment on him only being interested in the money.
4. has he has he not trained wiyh pat parelli, is he a fraud or not.

i wasn't trying to be awkward just thought that i could answer these questions as i know him, without people trying to guess the answers.

If he goes abroad it won't be to work with horses as such, maybe breeding and training nice youngsters from the start. Maybe helping to train the grooms there to have a beter understanding of horses. maybe he won't go at all i just know the are talking about it.

this was supposed to have been posted on the maxwell/ parelli thread, new to this not sure what happened.

[Laetitia]

I went on a three day Parelli course and found it fascinating.Pricey,yes, but my mini carthorse and I really benefitted.She was always in my face, which I hadn't really noticed, just moved out of her way.Now she waits for me.We get on famously and have a lot of fun.She is much more supple,and amazingly, a friend schooled her for me (I'm hopeless)and there she was crossing her legs and going sideways to the manner born.I found it quite hard to do the games initially, didn't really understand them (a bit of a thick head) which is why I used all my holiday money for years to come to go on the course, and I'm so pleased that I did it was worth every penny.

[cvb]

hi dolly - I didn't take it wrongly - just wondered if my computer was somehow editing the thread ! It is rather a relief to discover it is a case of mixed up threads rather then impending insanity on my part !

Personally I figure these guys have worked long and hard to find out what works for them. We only get the briefest of glimpses in the demos, and it should not really be a surprise that it is not 100% of people that agree with 100% of what they do. Yet somehow people think it should be - I think perhaps they should work a mile in these guys shoes. I may not agree with 100% of everything - or be experienced enough or talented enough to do 100% of what they do that I admire and respect, but I can still learn something from them. Even if it is just an appreciation of my own limits !

The fact that they are prepared to get up in front of a crowd of tens, hundreds, or thousands of critics - well they are braver than me !

I'm all for constructive criticism - which some of the feedback is. But not down and out backstabbing.

Thanks for giving us a little bit of an inside view.

[FRED]

K&K

Here are two web sites with a mass of info and links to NH web sites.
www.horses.about.com
www.kbrhorse.net
one has a feature on The horses of Sweeden too..

dolly, welcome to NR and thanks for your posts:)

[Crystal Fire]

I posted up elsewhere that Max hasn't had Parelli training. Dolly - I hope you didn't take this as implying that he is a fraud - it was meant as the opposite! People have been claiming that he is Parelli trained - he has never claimed that and why should he? As far as I can see he doesn't need Parelli training! :) He does his own thing, which is a bit different.

[Kerry's Partner!!]

Haven't posted because I've been away.

What I think is really good is that there is a growing awareness that we do need the experts to do the demos and articles, (because without them we'd be well and truly stuck in a rut) but that we also need to keep uppermost in our minds that we're seeing (or reading) about an interaction with an "individual" horse.

Good wishes to all.

Sandra

[Lucy J]

I do believe it is Parelli that says maxwell trained with him. In an effort to win business they said to my yard owner

"we are cheaper that Richard Maxwell and he trained with Parelli anyway"

this is one of the reason I do not promote Parelli one little bit. What they said was incorrect just to win business. It is wrong. I am in sales and I don't lie to my customers. I have never had Kelly Marks or Richard Maxwell shoved down my face the way I have with Parelli, and I do not think people should be bulldozed in such a way. Regardless of whether the system is good or not.

[dolly]

lucy j, good for you.

I can definately confirm that Max has never trained with parelli, he had started to use ground training at least two years before he met Pat, he has been to a few demos, he was as amazed as anyone how similar yet how different he was to Pat.

He did interview Pat for a magazine last year and really liked him.
i know he invited some Parelli people upto his yard for the day,mainly to show his staff that there is more than one way, but i have since heard that those PNH people weren't allowed to tell anyone they had been, which made Max laugh.

Also to put the record straight he is definately cheaper than parelli.

[Lucy J]

interesting. Richard isn't cheap. BUt I am hoping to have him come out to see my horse. SHe is great on the ground but we are having a few ridden problems. (like she is boss!)

I am really impressed with what I have read and heard of about him and will keep everyone posted if he does come to our yard.

I know he trained with Monty Roberts and he doesn't force his methods on anyone. I trust him, I don't trust Parelli one bit.

[Crystal Fire]

Lucy J - who exactly are "they"? Could you give a name? You see, I have worked with the Parelli team and you have to understand that things are friendly between us and Max. They are very careful not to say anything that could be taken as bad-mouthing another system or trainer, and I'm sure max returns the courtesy.
As said before, you don't have to be endorsed by Parelli to bandy the name about - so - who is it you have been talking to? If it is someone endorsed I'd still like to know.

[dolly]

Lucy j, just out of pure interest i thought i might break down his cost for you, i know it sound expensive but he has a set charge regardless of where you live so he charges £350 for a four hour session (which quite often runs over) if you live in Basingstoke his time including travel would be 9 hours, approx £40 per hour less 17% vat and less £40 for petrol, that leaves £27.50 per hour, out of which he has to pay someone to run the office and someone to look after his horses because he is never at home to do them. And believe me Basingstoke is a fairly local destination compared to some.

I am only putting this because when people pay him i do think they forget all these factors. To send your horse onto a specialist yard can now cost about £350 per week and the horse could be there for between 2-6 weeks.

I know that if you do have him out you will love it, the thankyou file in his office must have hundreds of letters in it.

keep well
dolly

[Lucy J]

thanks very much Dolly.

As for 'they' I will ask the yard owner, I am not sure who she spoke to or where, I just heard the feedback! I will let you know a name and double check the conversation. she is certainly v. keen on Parelli though. I will find out all I can.