Judging Gripes - longish, sorry!

[TheWeaselsMum]

Hello All - I'm new around here and hope that you don't mind that my first post is going to be a (long, sorry!) grizzle about judging! :D
My mare and I do a fair bit of unaffiliated dressage - we're awful at it - at home she is just about at Prelim level, but out at competitions she gets very worked up and stressed - she enjoys herself but we always get comments about how tense she is (and competition nerves on my part don't help either!). The bottom line is we are trying to get competition experience, and really don't expect decent scores......:cool:
However, what does really bug me is the discrepancy between judges. A few weeks ago we did two prelim tests at Hartpury college. My spinning ginger lady earned us a 3 in the first test (P7) for her excellent (but totally unplanned) canter pirouette as we turned off the centre line and she spotted the Spillers advert on the wall, and continued to perform an apallingly bad test, bent like a banana the wrong way as she looked for things to spook at. She was too tense to hold her canter..... I came out of the arena expecting a score in the low 40s. We got 56.2! Mainly 5s and 6s with a 7 thrown in for good measure!
Second test (P12), she went (for her) beautifully. We lacked roundness at times, and were a little stiff at times, but performed each movement on the marker, and even had a decent stretch down in the FWLR. But the judging was soooo harsh! We got 4 for the FWLR ("Lacked purpose"), the walk bits were "Losing Power", our 20m circle at canter was falling in and earned us a 4. We ended up with a score of 48. If I hadn't had the experience of writing for judges in the past, and the evidence of our usual scores for that stanadrd of performance I think I would have given up there and then. I know we average low 50s when she goes well (for her at a competition) and I'm happy with that! (Although trying to improve). This 48 would have been a real blow if it had been my first or only test :eek:
What does everyone here think about dressage judging? Any similar experiences? Any suggestions for getting myself and my Ginger Spinning top calmer?

Catherine & Teasel xx

[andreaB]

i think as you move up the levels the judging becomes more consistent

the trouble with prelim , esp often at rc is the variation in the judges you get , eg you might get a lsit 4 bd judge one day , a local ri another & if they are struggling on judges it could be just someone 'fairly' experienced who wouldn't even distinguish between a true & a false 'outline'

personally with unaff i always ask who the judge is & if they are listed or known to be well respected i am happy , i have to admit my best ever score was with an unlisted judge & i just think we were not worth & would have got a lower score with a better judge

[Skib]

Could one look at this from another direction?

Who are the judges for BD and are there enough of them?
Has anyone here volunteered to judge or trained to judge simple dressage?

I went to Olympia to watch the dressage. I got talking to the lady sat next to me. I am highly intelligent and have been riding five years. I dont do dressage or compete. But I was interested enough to have bought the schedules from BD so I could understand what the riders were doing and how marks were allocated.
When we parted, she suggested I should start watching local shows this summer and possibly volunteer to train to judge?
That suggests to me that the whole system depends on older people coming in to help and that candidates should be grateful to anone who gives up their time? And since judges too have to learn how and to be trained - variation in marking and personal preferences - as well as a margin of error - are as likely in judges as they are in new riders and horses.

Since this holds good in any walk of life - it is a strong reminder that, unlike children, we grown ups should not set too much store by outside assessments, tests, exam results, doing well at competitions, and so on. The judges and examiners are ordinary people like ourselves and none is infallible.

I could never have acted as a JP, and I doubt if I have the makings of a dressage judge either.

[poohsmate]

it happens wherever you compete, and judging is very subjective, i have always thought that it would be fairer if there were two judges in all tests and take an average.
But having organised countless competitions i know how hard it is to even get one.
it's all very well saying that at lower or unaffiliated comp's the judging is of a lower, or poorer standard, but IME this is far form being the case, i have written at all levels up to PSG and for all levels of judges, and i have been apalled by some of the judging, and remarks at higher levels.
Whereas some judges just starting out on the judging trail have judged every horse on it's merits on the day, and not on who was riding it!!!!! something that i think is endemic in judging at higher levels.
When i first started doing competitions i used to get really upset and go around muttering about the bl___dy judge must be blind:D if i did not get the score i though i deserved:D
But as time went on, and winning comp's i knew i should not of, and getting poor mark when i knew i had done a good test i learnt to judge myself.. if i did a good test in my mind then i was happy regardless of the marks...
i have had a mixed bag of results at hartpury too:D :D :D

[Blackhorse]

I think we have been there and seen some dubious judging and scores. My best score so far was under a list 3A so I was well chuffed with that. When you can score 72.8 under that sort of judge and then do a local RC show and just scrape 56% it sort of puts you off.

We have also found that some like different types of horses. Gaetano is a pretty Anglo Arab he does well under certain judges and Zak being more workman like always seems to be marked down. There are others who like the workman and not so keen on the airy fairy.

My only advice is keep going look at the comments on your sheets rather than the marks. Decided how you felt with the test, I kept a little book to start off with so I could mark how I felt he went compared to the judges comments. The more you do the more she will settle.

[TheWeaselsMum]

Hi Skib
I'd me more than happy to volunteer as and train to be a BD judge - but I don't compete in affiliated competions yet, and unless I'm mistaken to be a BD judge you need to do this?
I DO appreciate the judges giving up their time to judge - my only disappointment on this occassion was receiving what could have been a very discouraging set of marks in an unaffiliated and entry level class. I'd hate to think how off putting this could be to someone if it was their first dressage competition!
Judges I have written for at this level normally give the benefit of the doubt to a certain extent, and tend to be (IMHO) a little generous if anything in an effort to encourage rather than put people off - it was just a little disconcerting to meet a generous judge and a very strict judge on the same day at the same place!

[TheWeaselsMum]

Blackhorse and Poohsmate - you are both so right - look at the comments not the scores, be happy in yourself if you know you have done a good test....

Wise words, both of you :D

Have got riding club dressage tomorrow, we'll see how that goes! :rolleyes:

[TheWeaselsMum]

AndreaB - where can you look to find out if a judge is listed? I've looked on the BD site but couldn't see lists of judges (probably looking in the wrong place!)

[andreaB]

i'm not aware of a list that you can look at

i just tend to ask the organisers if the judge is listed & what level

i'm personally very pleased at the moment , i got my best scores from a listed judge so far on sunday & the judge was kind enough to have a chat with me & give me some very useful input whan she overheard me asking the organisers if the judge was listed when i was collecting my sheets

[Lgd]

You can get a booklet of listed judges from BD.

You do need to be registered with BD to train as a judge with them and you have to get a reference filled in by a trainer or judge above a certain level. It is preferred that you ride affiliated as well but don't think it is compulsory.

I'm waiting for my testing date for List 5 :gulp:

Go to www.britishdressage.co.uk and look under judge training if you are interested

[Spiggly]

I have had the same experience, but i was doing the same test on two different horses. The first time the test went awfully (spooking, napping, falling in, changing legs etc) and i got 52.4, the second time i felt it went really well (everything far better, save for an accidental flying change), and got 51%!

I wrote for one judge who decided the winner before the horse entered the ring - she knew the horse and rider, and decided they were excellent and marked her up over horses that had performed equally well. This test was prelim, but the judge tld me she knew the horse had competed medium level before. Because it was an unaffiliated competition, apparently she could enter the prelim :confused:

[andreaB]

I wrote for one judge who decided the winner before the horse entered the ring - she knew the horse and rider, and decided they were excellent and marked her up over horses that had performed equally well. This test was prelim, but the judge tld me she knew the horse had competed medium level before. Because it was an unaffiliated competition, apparently she could enter the prelim :confused:


i would sincerely hope that judges like this are few & far between & certainly that the judge was not listed

i have to admit that i have only ever been to one competition where i thought 'how the hell did that win!'

[TheWeaselsMum]

Ooooh - Good Luck with your test for list 5!!!!

[TheWeaselsMum]

I wrote for one judge who decided the winner before the horse entered the ring - she knew the horse and rider, and decided they were excellent and marked her up over horses that had performed equally well. This test was prelim, but the judge tld me she knew the horse had competed medium level before. Because it was an unaffiliated competition, apparently she could enter the prelim :confused:


That's AWFUL!!!!
From both sides - deciding the winner in advance AND a horse that has competed mediun doing prelim! Why do people do that? I could understanding going back to Elementary, but Prelim?!

[TheWeaselsMum]

i'm personally very pleased at the moment , i got my best scores from a listed judge so far on sunday & the judge was kind enough to have a chat with me & give me some very useful input whan she overheard me asking the organisers if the judge was listed when i was collecting my sheets

Fantastic! Well done you :D
Nice of the judge too! It's good that they take an interest!

[Jane.A]

As a lowly list 6 also awaiting a test date to try to go up to list 5 I can tell you that getting listed is not easy. First you have to be accepted as a trainee, recommendation fro ma respected trainer etc. they also prefer you to have competed to a certain level at either BD or BE. Then you have to do a certain amount of sitting in with listed judges, write at a number of competitions, attend training session (not free), attend a regional seminar, also not free, submit written practice judging sheets (which you have to buy) where your results order should bear a strong resemblence to the master judge and do a written exam. If all that is acceptable then you can apply for a testing date, also not free, where you have top judges getting in and out of the back of your car whilest you judge a class along side a master judge. There are not many exam dates and only certain centres approved to test so it can involve a long drive and an overnight stay for you and your writer. You then stew for a week till your results come out. Once listed you still have to attend regular training sessions where you can be put on the spot if your marks, which we have to hold up like ice skate judges, don't tally with the course leader. You earn the princely sum of 40p per mile for judging and can be sitting in a cold shed with limited and sometimes no refreshment depending on venue for hours.
That said I LOVE judging and have learnt so much doing it. As a competitor also I have a great deal of empathy with riders but also feel that many would benefit from a good trainer who also competes and can advise what the judge is looking for. There are also sessions run certainly in our area where you can ride a test, go thru it with the judge who gives you pointers and assistance, you then ride the test again.
I hope this gives you an insight into the rigours of modern judging. The aim is to promote consistancy of judging and correct training of the horse as a happy athlete. That said we can only judge what we see, and dependent on where you or your fan club are positioned the picture can vary quite dramatically. As a body we try to be constructive and helpful, so please don't tar all judges with the same brush, those of us on the affiliated ladder devote a lot of time to supporting our sport.

[TheWeaselsMum]

Jane
Thank you for your reply, and good luck with your test for going up to list 5 when you receive the date.
I certainly don't tar all judges with the same brush - the vast majority are not only generous with their time, helpful with their comments and willing to offer help (in the form of advice) if asked. I regularly write for dressage judges, at both affiliated and unaffiliated competitions, and without exception all the judges I have written for have been fair and consistent.
That's why the gripe! It is a shame that at an unaffiliated competition held somewhere like Hartpury that I should stumble across the only example I've met so far of this type of discrepancy in judging!
But anyway - than you Jane.A for giving up your time and judging - I hope you continue to enjoy it :-)

[MeMe]

Good luck Jane on moving up a list, I have started my judge training this year, and have been judging lots of unaff to get back in the swing of it and writing as much as I can, although personal issues are putting it on hold abit, but I will complete it asap :)