Clicker Training and Position of Horse... [Archive]

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NoviceNic

11th Apr 2007, 11:03 PM

Bebe

12th Apr 2007, 07:10 AM

I had to teach the "look away" thing to my mare as she'd mug continually for treats. When that didn't work she started pawing the ground but I ignored that too and it's rare that she bothers now. I think you just have to be consistent, ignore the behaviour you don't want and go to a varied treat schedule for the behaviours you do want. It also becomes important not to reward the behaviours he already understands unless you ask for them and they're done on cue, don't reward him just for running through everything he knows in the hope it's what you want if you're not actually asking for anything.

As far as him spinning around you goes, if you haven't asked for it I'd put him back in his original position, as many times as is necessary for him to get the message. Don't let him move you around, it sends the wrong message.

Waikato Valuta

12th Apr 2007, 10:14 AM

Try to increase the time he needs to look away to get a treat. And Intersperse treats with pats. If you feed every time he will expect it and who can blame him for getting pushy

katefarmer

12th Apr 2007, 11:27 AM

Today I noticed Captain was a little too muggy....So I took him back a level to where I ignore his mugging behaviour. Quickly he learnt that the minute he leaves me alone and looks away he gets a click and a treat. ;) But then he keeps looking away and expecting a treat.:rolleyes: Do I not click and treat him everytime he looks away or do I carry on piling the treats down his neck???:confused:

Also he has a habit of spinning around and standing in front of me. I then walk around to his side. Am I making a mistake of walking round him??

Hmm - interesting. I think this is sort of where clicker comes into conflict with what makes sense to the horse. By rewarding him for looking away, you are effectively rewarding him taking his attention off you. Not really what you want for other applications - and something that will make him think he has the upper hand. Similarly, if you walk around him, he is controlling the personal space - and that makes him higher ranking than you.

As you say, he's sort of treating you like a vending machine - he looks away, you give him the treat. Looking away (which in horse is saying "you're not so important!") is the button he presses to make you give him a treat.

As backing is going well, how about using that to discourage the pushiness? If he gets pushy, back him up and reward that while he still has his attention on you. Then you're keeping his focus at the same time as getting him out of your space. You could use the same for the spinning round - each time his does it, send him back. This will increase your personal space and give you the leadership role. (Make sure you stand still, and he backs away from you so the distance between you increases.)

Any help?

capalldubh

12th Apr 2007, 11:51 AM

Sounds like it's going well - just that you're ready to move on to the next stage. Don't know how often you're in touch with the lady who did the first lessons, but it might be a good time for lesson two ;)

There are effectively two things you can do:

1. start looking for duration - this is useful for Captain to learn, because it forms part of lots of other things you will teach. You don't often just want one movement then back. For example, with your backing - you will want more than one step. With standing still, you will want more than 1 second. With looking away, you may want him to do this till you tell him to look back. So click and reward for looking away for 2 seconds, then only reward times when he looks away and hesitates for a moment, making it 4 seconds - build it up that way.

2. Alternatively, you can ask him to keep moving his head, so he only gets a click and treat for every 2, then 3 turns of the head.

I would recommend 1 over 2, because it introduces something Alex Kurland calls emotional control (it's like in children where you say you can have a cookie, or you can wait a minute and have two cookies - called deferred gratification ;) ).

Another alternative is to put the behaviour on cue and only reward it when you have cued it - so like with "over and across", he should only look away when you say so, and know he will not get a treat until then. Don't worry, you will be able to phase out treats for specific behaviours quite quickly, but to start, it's best to give them the security of knowing that each (cued) behaviour will get rewarded - it keeps them motivated.

WRT to what kate says, it's true you're asking them to look away, but that incorporates a very common assumption about horses (and people). They operate more than one sensory system at once - looking away doesn't mean that the horse is not attending to you, because attention uses information from all sensory systems at once :)

ETA - I just reread what you said about spinning around - did you start training with him always standing in front of you? It sounds a bit like he's learned - along with everything else - that he's most likely to be rewarded if he's standing there. Just a case of remembering when training that you need to be able to cue the behaviour from all angles - so don't always train in the same position or from the same side ;-)

NoviceNic

12th Apr 2007, 12:25 PM

Arggg blasted database errors.....

NoviceNic

12th Apr 2007, 12:27 PM

Kate believe me he is focussed on me. He has never been so focussed on me..:rolleyes: He will back away and give me more bubble than he ever has. And not just when I have treats in my pocket. This is one thing I have noticed a big improvement on. :)

I used my clicker training today whilst bathing him. He usually swings his bum and body round from side to side literally knocking me out of the way even if I am in the way...:mad: So i fetched the treats. Cue Captains senses to stand when I asked him to stand. :D He did get a little better so I am pleased with him. Its a matter of time and realising he isnt going to be perfect on Day 1.;)

I try to walk around him but at the moment he tends to follow me everywhere. So I have been asking for stand and the second he stands I click and treat. I suppose I am going to have too look at extending the stand as well....

I will look at lengthening the amount of time between the click and the treat. At the moment he tends to swing round to grab the treat as soon as I treat. So I close my hand and say Steady. He then backs a little as he remembers he is in my bubble. Once he is out of my bubble and not mugging I allow his treat. Do you think I am on the right lines or am I confusing him??

Some interesting reading from everyone. Thank you.

capalldubh

12th Apr 2007, 12:52 PM

At the moment he tends to swing round to grab the treat as soon as I treat.

This definitely improves with time and practice - Jackson did it a lot to start. The urgency wears off with the novelty ;)

capalldubh

12th Apr 2007, 12:56 PM

At the moment he tends to swing round to grab the treat as soon as I treat.

This definitely improves with time and practice - Jackson did it a lot to start. The urgency wears off with the novelty ;) No problem to not open your hand on the treat for a few seconds until he slows down.

Persist, though - it's like any sort of training, there will be glitches, but it is worth it in the end. Problem is, you're training your horse to think and problem solve, and sometimes they get a step ahead of you...:rolleyes: Karen Pryor says always have a plan of action if things go faster than you expect.

Grr, Database errors are winning today... Sorry for the double post.

NoviceNic

17th Apr 2007, 10:58 PM

Have changed to treating only every once in a while...Like around 5 success'. Captain at first wonderd where the treat was and swung round but then realised he wasnt getting ine so looked away for one. No treat...:confused: But then I would try something else and then treat. Result...... Although still a little snatchy....so now I turn around when he snatches.

Lesson 2 booked and will squeeze all info out of trainer next week...:D

capalldubh

18th Apr 2007, 09:23 AM

HI NN, sounds like you're still making good progress! Looking forward to hearing about lesson two.

It's generally felt not to be a good idea to have treatless clicks - I'll let the experts explain it coz they do it better than me ;) Karen Pryor (http://www.clickertraining.com/node/936) and Alex Kurland (http://www.mail-archive.com/icehorses@yahoogroups.com/msg05464.html). You'll need to read down Alex's article to get to the bit about treatless clicks.

Briefly, you've reducing the value of your secondary reinforcer - here's an (not very good ) example. Suppose you've been slacking a bit at work recently. Your boss decides that occasionally, she'll give you a pay slip, but not put any money in your bank account. Will this have the effect of making you feel good about your boss and resolve to try harder in future? ;) When you see your pay slip, will you feel happy and head for the shops, or will you feel a bit distrustful and want to check your bank account? The secondary reinforcer only has value if it's a really good predictor of something you value (a primary reinforcer such as food).:)

NoviceNic

23rd Apr 2007, 11:24 PM

Thanks will have a read/watch and ask my trainer for some ideas...It would make sense if I could take Captain for the lesson but temporarily have no trailer. Will have to just bloomin fix it myself....:rolleyes:

lammy

23rd Apr 2007, 11:36 PM

Only me. Just a short note as you will be here soon for your lesson.

There is no need to click and treat everytime he looks away, you are just making it clear that its a better place for him looking away and not mugging you.

As much as you can don't let him alter your position as he is trying to mould you into what he wants.

:D

NoviceNic

29th Apr 2007, 10:43 PM

Knew he was upto something sneaky............:rolleyes:

Glues my feet to the ground.....lol