Practical Horsemanship Demos (+Photos)

[raingodz]

Well, my three show stint photographing Practical Horsemanship on tour is over and what a great experience it was. Spending time with Dan and Grant and the team before and after the shows really did show how dedicated they are to helping the horses they work with in these demos.

For me one of the highlights came in last nights show, they had a horse that would not load when going home from events (it was fine going to the events), this was sadly due to a previous owner who had seen fit to punish the horse for bad show perfomance once going home, so the poor thing had a real negative association with going home. Dan and Gran went through their usual calm work to get the horse loading, then to prove that anyone could load it I was unexpectadly asked to put my camera down and load the horse! It loaded perfectly. But the thing that really proved the value of this work was at the end of the demo when it was time for the owner to load the horse and go home, the horse actualy trotted on the trailer with her.

In all three of the demos Dan and Grant chose to only work with three horses, and in each demo giving over an hour to a single spooky horse. I really felt that this gave the horse and owner much more to go home with than the usual 30 mins I have seen at other demos by other trainers.

You really did get the feeling that this was less of a demonstration and more getting to see how Dan and Grant actually go about their work, in their calm and compitant way.

If you can manage to get along to the see them on any of the last few dates then I would highly recomend the trip:

Sunday 15th April - Moulton College, Northamptonshire
Monday 16th April - Poplar Park EC, Woodbridge, Suffolk
Tuesday 17th April - Plumpton College, Nr Lewes, Sussex
Wednesday 18th April - The Grange EC, Okehampton, Devon
Thursday 19th April - Lands End Riding Centre, Nr Penzance, Cornwall

Will upload the photos now!

[raingodz]

Dan and Grant relaxing before the demo:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Dan%20and%20Grant/20070412/IMGP0883.jpg

This horse hated clippers and carrier bags (this horse is 18hh and we all would have taken it home given half the chance):
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Dan%20and%20Grant/20070413/IMGP1563.jpg

But was getting better by the end:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Dan%20and%20Grant/20070413/IMGP1585.jpg

Dan backing up:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Dan%20and%20Grant/20070413/IMGP1344.jpg

Seeing through the horses eye:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Dan%20and%20Grant/20070413/IMGP1298.jpg

Wearing a saddle for the first time:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Dan%20and%20Grant/20070414/IMGP1660.jpg

Carrying a rider for the first time:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Dan%20and%20Grant/20070414/IMGP1686.jpg

Another Spooky horse:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Dan%20and%20Grant/20070414/IMGP1775.jpg

But Grant and Dan spent over an hour working with this horse until it began to trust them and accept some scary objects (and is there anything more scary then Grant with a pink umbrella):
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Dan%20and%20Grant/20070414/IMGP1841.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Dan%20and%20Grant/20070414/IMGP1845.jpg

[coss]

that looks really good... the horses obviously trust them :)

[NoviceNic]

Are they dually they have on the horses????

Raingodz - The pictures you have shown where the horses are distressed. Are they distressed at the beginning and for the purpose of the demo the audience need to be shown? Do the horses settle as they get into the demo? I am sure there is a great amount of difference in the horses as the demo goes on...:) Can you explain this in words so we get a better feel of the final results....

[Tots N Dots]

wow you are so lucky to have been inside the round pen with them, photos are amazing :D
so much different without the "bars" in between :D :D

[india]

Correct me if I'm wrong because I know pictures can be deceiving, but the trainers appear to be using the flooding method on the grey horse while he was wearing a dually halter.

[Yann]

Great pics, especially with them being 'access all areas' :)

Didn't manage to get to any of their dates this time but if what I've seen of them before and other RA's working, then contrary to what the pictures might suggest everything is generally kept very low key and calm. I'm sure Raingodz will confirm this :) The horses can and do react at times, especially early in the session if the handler presents them with a bit too much too soon, but you can guarantee that within minutes of these pictures being taken they were beginning to deal with their worry and calm down. It is progressive desensitisation, the bag and stick will be removed in reward the moment the horse tolerates it, but they are limited in how far they can depart by the second handler with the dually. It's arguably a bit more demanding on the horse initially, but also gets it past that stage more quickly. Matter of personal taste on that one I suppose.
As the later pictures show the horses normally finish the session calm and relaxed having taken a big step forward, especially where the time needed has been taken.

Flooding as I understand it would be going at it with a fully unrolled bag all over the body and non stop right from the word go with full restraint until it stopped panicking, which is clearly not what happens.

[india]

...Flooding as I understand it would be going at it with a fully unrolled bag all over the body and non stop right from the word go with full restraint until it stopped panicking, which is clearly not what happens.
I've never attended one of these demo's Yann, but by the description of what you've watched on previous occasions and with the pictures above, I'd say the RA's where more likely to be flooding these horses rather than training them by progressive desensitisation.

In my opinion, progressive desensitization involves exposing the horse gradually to something he's fearful of. This is done in such a way that the horse is never put in a situation whereby it panics and tries to flee from the object.

Flooding involves over-exposure of something a horse is fearful of but can't get away from, if it tries to flee it's either restrained or the object moves with him (such as with the saddle on the horse in photo no: 6 or in the form of a rolled up bag in photo no: 2). In addition to this a dually halter is also being used at the same time.

This training approach is to domineering for my liking - but as you said, it's all a matter of personal taste. ;)

.

[Kate F.]

Of course, it's hard to tell from photos as the whole process is a dynamic, and here you just see a split second - but from what is there, I agree with India. Whether you want to call it flooding or something else, the point is with both the grey and the chestnut, the horse's flight response has been triggered. One can easily get the timing wrong and set this off - but for it to happen in both cases looks a bit as though a less confrontational approach would have been better.

I'm also not convinced of the wisdom of having 2 people working on 1 horse for something like desensitizing. It immediately creates a "pack of predators" situation for the horse and increases the tension.

I'm not sure whether those are Dually halters or other pressure halters but either way, sorry - but I just hate them, and these pictures show one reason why. The horse gets uncomforatable and tries to escape. The more it tries to escape the tighter the pressure gets, and makes it want to escape more. The harder it pulls, the tighter the halter and so on. A minor anxiety can hardly not escalate into a major panic.

For the sake of safety it's usually good to have something on the head when desensitizing - but IMHO simply as a way of keeping horse and handler safe if the horse gets upset, and NOT as a way of forcibly restraining it and "making" it accept something. For me, the point of desensitizing is to help the horse to feel comfortable about something, not to force it to put up with it.

I'm sure they are really nice guys with the best intentions, working calmly and and well within the techniques they are using. I just think there are better techniques. For me, it's not just the "before and after" that counts - just as important is what happens in between, and of far less importance is how long it takes. I think it's Parelli who says something like "Let it takes the time it takes, and it takes less time" ... well, even if it's not Parelli, whoever it is, I think they're right! To me, "Getting there quicker" is never an excuse for putting any additional stress on the horse. But then, I guess I'm a big, old softie!! :D ;)

[Yann]

This training approach is to domineering for my liking - but as you said, it's all a matter of personal taste.

I don't know what the wink was for because I never actually said it was to my taste ;) I've always had misgivings about the fact the horse was restrained through this process, something Monty Roberts takes to another level by using penning, which I definitely would class as flooding, and I've also seen him apparently applying punishment via the dually to a horse that kicked out at the bag and stick :(

or the object moves with him

If you're applying PD surely this is unavoidable? An unrestrained horse may walk away with the scary bag nearby, if the bag never follows the horse is never going to become desensitised to it. The trick is to keep far enough away so you're just at the edge of the horse's tolerance and can reward it by going away when it does stop?

With the saddle my guess is this happened when the horse was sent in to canter after first going round quite happily with it on the long lines in walk and trot.

[Chilli]

It's my understanding that flooding is when the stimulus is maintained when the horse has decided it needs to get away from it (Flooding can be verylight e.g. the horse walks away calmly but the stimulus follows it until the horse stops to very agressive in your face restrain the horse while paniking until it stops)

As i understand it progressive desensitisation is when the level of stimulus is never enough for the horse to have to move away and as the horse accepts the stimulus the close it will get.

Saddle on a horse turn it out to buck is flooding imho.

Now everone has to do what they think is best for thier horse and NH labled people are generally more intersted in doing the best for thier horse one could say but i have a question.

Ray Hunt has done more for the horse than everbody on here times a million, if he was to use flooding would you say he was wrong and there is a better way ? (He has started 1000's of horses personally in his life)

I just find it interesting how we, and i do it myself watch/learn from great horsemen who we could never in a million years be half as good, then say yea thats good stuff but i don't like/agree with that bit so won't do it.

[katefarmer]

Ray Hunt has done more for the horse than everbody on here times a million, if he was to use flooding would you say he was wrong and there is a better way ? (He has started 1000's of horses personally in his life)

I just find it interesting how we, and i do it myself watch/learn from great horsemen who we could never in a million years be half as good, then say yea thats good stuff but i don't like/agree with that bit so won't do it.

I think Ray Hunt would be the first to say he is not definitive, and is himself constantly revising and updating his techniques to get even better. The real tops like him still talk to eachother, try new things and are always looking for further improvements. No one, not even Ray Hunt, knows it all! :D Therefore, if we see someone else who has developed something that works better than the way Ray (or anyone else) is doing it now, there's nothing wrong with people recognising that. It may well be something Ray has yet to pick up on or is still trying out, or has perhaps already modified in what he does, but you just haven't seen him doing it yet!

This is the problem with "guru-ising" the whole thing, and taking the approach that if XYZ does it this way, it must be the right/best way.

Quantity of startings isn't really much to do with it. There are plenty of people who've started thousands of horses badly - it doesn't mean we should copy them! :D

[raingodz]

Are they dually they have on the horses????

Yes

Raingodz - The pictures you have shown where the horses are distressed. Are they distressed at the beginning and for the purpose of the demo the audience need to be shown? Can you explain this in words so we get a better feel of the final results....
Here in lies a problem, I took about 1100 photos over the three days, and very few are 'action' shots because Dan and Grant are very good at settling and calming the horses. I am in conflict, as a photographer I love the photos with more dynamic movement, but as a rider I can see that they could sho an inaccurat portrail of the event. The parts of the demo where the spooky horses are worked with often lasted over an hour and for much of that time the horses are very calm, with just moments when they are introduced to the items they are unsure of when they occasionaly react in such extream ways. I think that the photos of the Grey and the Chesnut were probaly the only point in their demo thatthey reacted in such a way.

wow you are so lucky to have been inside the round pen with them, photos are amazing :D
so much different without the "bars" in between :D :D
Yes, I felt very privalidged to be allowed such good access.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I know pictures can be deceiving, but the trainers appear to be using the flooding method on the grey horse while he was wearing a dually halter.
I'm sorry, I do not understand what Flooding involves, but after any time the horse has an extram reaction to something it was then given pleanty of time and support before continuing with the work.
Great pics, especially with them being 'access all areas' :)

Thanks :)

then contrary to what the pictures might suggest everything is generally kept very low key and calm. I'm sure Raingodz will confirm this :)
Yes, I can confirm this, I have been to several Monty Roberts Demos, and I can say that I find Dan and Grant are alot calmer than Monty and spend alot more time settling the horse. They do work much more for the horse than for the demo.


In my opinion, progressive desensitization involves exposing the horse gradually to something he's fearful of. This is done in such a way that the horse is never put in a situation whereby it panics and tries to flee from the object.

Flooding involves over-exposure of something a horse is fearful of but can't get away from, if it tries to flee it's either restrained or the object moves with him (such as with the saddle on the horse in photo no: 6)

Photo number 6 is the horse being allowed to run free with the saddle on for the first time. I have been to 8 NH demos with horses being backed for the first time and they always put in a couple of bucks to see if they can get rid of the saddle. The photo is of the one buck this horse made.

The owner of the horse in photo 6 said: "very pleased with the end result. The session was short and sweet with praise and encouragement given constantly. The horse was not overworked and the session stopped on a good note before she started to get fed up or loose concetration. Good common sense horsemanship. The demonstration was kept interesting with 3 horses with completely different issues."

A friend of horse in photo 2 said: "I was very impressed at how cool, calm and collected Dan and Grant were. I know this horse personally so am very aware of how deep his fear is. They did an amzing job with him and it was fascinating watching them work and make so much progress with him"

[Chilli]

I think Ray Hunt would be the first to say he is not definitive, and is himself constantly revising and updating his techniques to get even better. The real tops like him still talk to eachother, try new things and are always looking for further improvements. No one, not even Ray Hunt, knows it all! :D Therefore, if we see someone else who has developed something that works better than the way Ray (or anyone else) is doing it now, there's nothing wrong with people recognising that. It may well be something Ray has yet to pick up on or is still trying out, or has perhaps already modified in what he does, but you just haven't seen him doing it yet!

This is the problem with "guru-ising" the whole thing, and taking the approach that if XYZ does it this way, it must be the right/best way.

Quantity of startings isn't really much to do with it. There are plenty of people who've started thousands of horses badly - it doesn't mean we should copy them! :D

Don't dissagree with you except when you are talking about people like Ray, every peorson no matter how few or many horse's they have interacted with will know horses are all different, if someone of his caliber has worked with 10,000+ horse's his toolbox is going to be a lot bigger than someone who has worked with 500, horse that make you sit down and re-evaluate what your doing don't come around every day, he'll have seem more than most and those are the horses that move things on in the horse training world.

I guess my point was isn't it interesting that we can watch something without actually knowing whats going on and decide if it's better or not, the photo of the bucking horse for example, we've all looked at it and made a judgment.

For me the fact that pretty much all the NH trainers you see use Dorrance/Hunt type methods (no matter how they dress them up so they are unique) suggest he may be worth "guru-ising" although i don't think the method is what important its the reason behind it if that makes sense :confused:

[raingodz]

For me the fact that pretty much all the NH trainers you see use Dorrance/Hunt type methods (no matter how they dress them up so they are unique) suggest he may be worth "guru-ising" although i don't think the method is what important its the reason behind it if that makes sense :confused:

I have never heared of Dorrance/Hunt methods, do you have any links for furter information on their methods?

[Chilli]

I have never heared of Dorrance/Hunt methods, do you have any links for furter information on their methods?

Tom Dorrance is considered the father of modern NH amd Ray Hunt is credited with bringing it to the wider audience, Parelli learnt from them as did most people you'll see there methods in most NH trainers.

www.rayhunt.com
www.tomdorrance.com

[raingodz]

Thanks Chilli :D

[Yann]

Flooding can be verylight e.g. the horse walks away calmly but the stimulus follows it until the horse stops

And then the stimulus is removed in reward. That's surely desensitisation, not flooding:confused: The stimulus isn't added and removed or applied progressively in flooding, the subject is exposed to it until it copes or breaks.
If the stimulus is applied at such a low level that the horse doesn't react at all then I can't see how it's going to be desensitised unless I've missed something fundamental :)

Saddle on a horse turn it out to buck is flooding imho.

It is, but usually all the horses are reacting to is the different feel of the saddle on their back the first time they canter, having had no problem with it in walk and trot on the long lines. I've never seen one panic about it, and most horses I've seen started this way don't buck at all. It's one situation where a bit of flooding is unavoidable as far as I can see.

For me, it's not just the "before and after" that counts - just as important is what happens in between

For sure, so long as what happens in between is humane and effective, and that the after is a positive and lasting result.

I'm sure they are really nice guys with the best intentions

Not being at all patronising there? ;)

[Tots N Dots]

And then the stimulus is removed in reward. That's surely desensitisation, not flooding:confused: The stimulus isn't added and removed or applied progressively in flooding, the subject is exposed to it until it copes or breaks.
If the stimulus is applied at such a low level that the horse doesn't react at all then I can't see how it's going to be desensitised unless I've missed something fundamental :)
I totally agree with this statement, but I think terminology often gets in the way, people see something and call it by a name, someone repeats the name and so forth and so forth, I do a lot with Pickle that is desensitising as described above, but I have known it to be called flooding by some people.


I have to say as Pickle was backed in a demo by Grant and Dan I was very pleased by the way they handled him, I at no time felt he was under stress. the fact he is a intelligent bunny I knew he could cope with the demo situation, infact I think he was more interested by it, I think I was more stressed than he ever was there, and I have to add that he never bucked once.
He was a little bewildered to start with, mainly as he kept stopping and looking at me through the bars of the round pen as if to say "erm excuse me but shouldnt you be in here and not this bloke I dont know?"
I also felt it did him good as he had got the idea he could be "top dog" where men were concerned because at the time I didnt know any men who were "horsey" so the ones he met he chased out the field, much to Pickles delight they ran ;) so when he came into contact with a male human he was very dominant, I am glad to say this has now stopped, lucky as most Dentists, Farriers and my saddle fitter are men, they just werent around often enough for Pickle to learn that some men didnt run :D

[Emma L]

Flooding is the presentation of an aversive stimulus to an animal until the animal ceases to have a fight reaction to the stimulus. So if the bag is being held on the horse until the horse no longer flees this could arguably be flooding. If the bag is taken away once the horse is standing this is negative reinforcement as the standing still behaviour means that the horse can 'escape' the negative stimulus that is the plastic bag.

It depends whether you see flooding as a indesirable training method really? It is not as effective as systematic desenstisation for longer term effects and you do risk that if the horse escapes during the process that the horse will be lead to believe that struggling can rid it of negative stimuli. This is probably more of an issue regarding owners trying this technique at home than Dan and Grant. It is also probably worth noteing that very occasionally you will get a horse who won't cease to have a flight reaction to the negative stimuli and thus will not get to the stage where they are calm. Welsh D's are particularly known for this trait.

But as Dan and Grant show it is possible to get results using this method. The ethical debate behind using flooding in animals is always interesting. Obviously in humans informed consent can remove a lot of the issues surrounding flooding techniques in dealing with phobias.

:D

[NoviceNic]

Thanks for putting the demo into words Raingodz..:) I knew in a way that it couldnt be all action and drama. But have never been to a NH demo and unfortunately my first attempt at NH with a so called trainer was quite dramatic...:eek: :mad: :o

[Yann]

Dan and Grant would definitely come towards the other end of the scale from what you experienced :)

[Chilli]

And then the stimulus is removed in reward. That's surely desensitisation, not flooding:confused: The stimulus isn't added and removed or applied progressively in flooding, the subject is exposed to it until it copes or breaks.
If the stimulus is applied at such a low level that the horse doesn't react at all then I can't see how it's going to be desensitised unless I've missed something fundamental :)

Flooding is desensitisation it's just not progressive.

You do the same thing in both but in progressive the level of stimuless is not supposed to get to the point where the horse has to move away from it, a horse can be concerned/worried about something but not enough to run away.

In flooding the whole point is to past that line and make the horse be concerned enough to move away from the stimulus either clamly walk away up to flip out while restrained.

It is, but usually all the horses are reacting to is the different feel of the saddle on their back the first time they canter, having had no problem with it in walk and trot on the long lines. I've never seen one panic about it, and most horses I've seen started this way don't buck at all. It's one situation where a bit of flooding is unavoidable as far as I can see.


There are people like Curt Pate who never send the horse away and always aim for the horse to be with them, he manages to introduce the saddle into the different gates without or with minimal bucking, it obviously depends on the horse but his whole approach doesn't/minimises the requiremsnt for any flooding while others actively use it as first choice.

I don't think the differences in technique are as interesting as the reasons behind them myself.

[india]

If you're applying PD surely this is unavoidable? An unrestrained horse may walk away with the scary bag nearby, if the bag never follows the horse is never going to become desensitised to it. The trick is to keep far enough away so you're just at the edge of the horse's tolerance and can reward it by going away when it does stop?

Not necessarily....the approach and retreat method of progressive desensitisation gets the horse gradually used to an object by the trainer either stepping back or removing the stimulus before the horse begins to panic.
I agree, if the horse is at liberty, it will no doubt initially walk away from the object, but it would soon begin to realise it's not going to hurt him and advance towards it again. When this happens, the same procedure would be repeated and continued over a period of time by gradually pushing the boundaries of the horse's comfort zone until it was completely desensitised to the object.
This method obviously takes much longer to get the desired result but personally, it's my preferred way because I believe it's a lot less stressful and domineering towards the horse.:)

[Yann]

Flooding is desensitisation it's just not progressive.

I agree, but what Dan and Grant might do with a bag on a stick is definitely progressive, and triggering the full flight response wouldn't be an automatic or desired part of the process.

In flooding the whole point is to past that line and make the horse be concerned enough to move away from the stimulus either clamly walk away up to flip out while restrained.

We'll have to agree to differ on that definition, to me the critical point is not whether the horse stands or moves, but whether the flight instinct / flip / panic kicks in or not. If it does you've gone too far and need to go back a step, which is presumably what happened at the demo.

However I agree that sending a horse round in canter with its first saddle on is flooding, as the saddle is there 100% from the word go and the horse is left to come to terms with it. Interesting that the method you mention doesn't wholly eliminate this bucking either.

[Yann]

This method obviously takes much longer to get the desired result but personally, it's my preferred way because I believe it's a lot less stressful and domineering towards the horse.

We are clearly describing the same process - the difference is that the horse's choice about whether to stay or go has been removed in this case. I agree that not allowing the horse this choice if the stimulus is applied too strongly is going to be more stressful for it, certainly in the short term. I suppose there are two things going on, firstly the desensitisation, and secondly reinforcement of the idea in the horse's mind over who has control of its feet, especially in a worrying situation.

[Chilli]

I Interesting that the method you mention doesn't wholly eliminate this bucking either.

At the end of the day they are horse's, a horse might buck but it may be nothing to do with the method used, the horse might have seen/sensed something else that added to the experience and made him feel like he needed to buck.

If the same thing happend to the same horse and there wasn't for example a person in the audience eating a packet of crisps it might never of bucked.

Personally i don't think the specific methods are important as the way they are used or the philosophy behind there use, but maybee i'm mad :)

They were nice photo's and it's always interesting to see people working with horses :)

[Yann]

Not mad at all, I agree with you wholeheartedly :)

[Francis Burton]

I'm also not convinced of the wisdom of having 2 people working on 1 horse for something like desensitizing. It immediately creates a "pack of predators" situation for the horse and increases the tension.
Also, it is harder to stay on the fine line between setting off and averting the flight response (or advance and retreat) when you are responding to a horse-responding-to-you-and-another-person rather than just a horse-responding-to-you. The dynamic is complicated, even when the other person is tuned in and sensitive.

[flintybaby]

I've worked with horses before the same way that Dan and Grant work. Theres always 2 of us in the ring. One is the 'bad' person who shows the scary object to the horse and the other one is the 'good' person who they receive the praise from. We have only had postive results from working in this way and have helped many a horse over come their fear of clippers, bags and having their feet picked out!

I dont think it is flooding the horse because in my experience the object is placed near the horse and when they quieten you retreat the object and they are praised for not panicking. This is repeated getting closer each time. Its a gradual progression. :)

[Crystal Fire]

I am pretty certain that Dan and Grant aren't playing "good cop bad cop" with the horse. I suspect it's a matter of convenience.
But I don't quite get the idea of two people working together like this, with one hanging on and the other handling the objects. What happens to timing and feel? Unless of course you don't particularly intend using timing and feel... I think the horse is supposed to release the pressure on itself, by stopping moving and relaxing the head a bit, thereby rewarding itself. That's a big ask. I know they get there, but does it make it easy for them?
I hate these blooming Dually's though. If you can't hang on to a perfectly ordinary horse in a headcollar or rope halter then maybe you are scaring them too much? It's not like these are wild unhandled horses (although I still wouldn't use a pressure halter on them), these are someone's much loved "pets". They just have some things that worry them to the point where they can't normally handle it.
I think sometimes you can't avoid the horse getting a bit stressed when going through this sort of learning experience. It's about the degree that you stress or scare them maybe.

[Bay Mare]

Flooding is the presentation of an aversive stimulus to an animal until the animal ceases to have a fight reaction to the stimulus. So if the bag is being held on the horse until the horse no longer flees this could arguably be flooding. If the bag is taken away once the horse is standing this is negative reinforcement as the standing still behaviour means that the horse can 'escape' the negative stimulus that is the plastic bag.

Thanks for that perspective, Emma :) You've raised some interesting points there especially regards to the Welsh Ds!

[india]

We are clearly describing the same process - the difference is that the horse's choice about whether to stay or go has been removed in this case. I agree that not allowing the horse this choice if the stimulus is applied too strongly is going to be more stressful for it, certainly in the short term. I suppose there are two things going on, firstly the desensitisation, and secondly reinforcement of the idea in the horse's mind over who has control of its feet, especially in a worrying situation.

I'm not sure we are describing exactly the same process Yann........

For instance, if the horse was at liberty in a round pen, I wouldn't attempt to follow him with the stimulus if he walked away – I'd wait for him to approach it again before repeating the process of desensitising.
If on the other hand, the horse was wearing a rope (not a pressure) halter, then as soon as he showed any sign of distress, the stimulus would be removed until he was standing calmly again – at no point would the object follow (even if it wasn't actually touching his body), as in my opinion this would be flooding by forcing him into submission.

Do you agree? :)

[mayoguinness]

Haven't read hardly any of it so I apolagise if this sounds stupid but why were there two guys in there with the horse?? Don't like the look of the photoes but then again I very much doubt I'd go along with the training method and the halter being used;)

[Yann]

Read the thread???

I'm not sure we are describing exactly the same process Yann........

No, there appear to be some differences, just trying to get my head round what they might be :) Is the stimulus actively presented to the horse, or is it just 'around'?

If on the other hand, the horse was wearing a rope (not a pressure) halter, then as soon as he showed any sign of distress, the stimulus would be removed until he was standing calmly again

Is that actually desensitising? It sounds like the opposite is going on, every time the horse is worried, the stimulus is removed, rather than every time they tolerate it. Just trying to understand how that would work :)

If they were in a halter would the handler be asking them to stay with them? If so it sounds to me like a lower key version of what would have been done at the demo, I don't think personally that the type of halter used is material, they both release pressure when the horse complies with the handler's request. However I agree with Crystal Fire that if they're doing it right then a dually shouldn't be necessary, I think that's just 'how it's done'.

[india]

No, there appear to be some differences, just trying to get my head round what they might be :) Is the stimulus actively presented to the horse, or is it just 'around'?
Ok, let's say it's a plastic bag on a stick that I'm using on my horse....

I'd begin by letting him smell the bag, this in itself may cause him to become agitated – if it did, I would allow him to move around on the rope until he was settled....the bag and stick would still be in his view but I wouldn't follow him around with it. Once he'd got use to the sight of the bag and had a good sniff of it, I'd then start on another part of his body using approach and retreat. If he began to 'panic', I'd remove the bag but still keep it at a close distance (but never following or touching him with it while he was in 'panic mode'). When he'd settled I would begin using the bag and stick again in an area I knew he was comfortable with and work forward again from there. Gradually over a period of time (and it could take three or four weeks) my horse would become desensitised all over his body.

This is how I used the approach and retreat method to desensitise my two thoroughbreds - and it worked well....with minimum stress or dominance all around. :)

With regard to the type of halter used, I much prefer a rope halter because I dislike how the dually closes in on a horses head.....again this is purely a personal opinion but I'd never use one on any type of horse in any situation.

ETA:

Quote Yann:
Is that actually desensitising? It sounds like the opposite is going on, every time the horse is worried, the stimulus is removed, rather than every time they tolerate it. Just trying to understand how that would work

Yes Yann, it is desensitising and I took a few photo's this morning to give you an idea of the end result. The only trouble was I had to take the photo's myself so they're not that good and there wasn't a plastic bag handy so improvised with plastic strips of red and white warning tape.

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/rushmoor/?action=view&current=Beau.flv

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[Chilli]

Just read this again and it hit me that most people talk about how they don’t like a particular piece of tack or a particular method because it’s to this or to that for them (and it seems to be a theme in a lot of NH discussions).

What the horse does or doesn’t like, has or hasn’t evolved to cope with, doesn’t come into it just what is comfortable or not comfortable for the person working the horse.

Maybe it also explains why people follow trainers like Mark Rashid, Monty Roberts, Ray Hunt, Clinton Anderson etc but don’t follow parts because they are not acceptable to them, while the trainers work with what is acceptable to the horse.

I’m not saying it’s a bad thing (as long as making it comfortable for the person doesn’t make it less so for the horse imo) just ironic that a method/sub culture that was all about listening to the horse, seeing things from the horse’s point of view, working with the horse’s natural behaviour/instincts etc seems to be more about the people being comfortable with what they are doing now.

The two people working the horse makes sense if you don’t assume they are using advance and retreat with the associated difficulties of two people and 1 horse and are open to the option the are simulating a horse and rider combination encountering a spooky object, predator(dog) etc.

The person on the end of the rope is the rider helping/leading the horse through it’s fear of the spooky object, predator(dog) which the second person is.

As someone said photo’s can be misleading but I don’t think they are attempting advance and retreat or they must be very poor at it for the horse to need to move that much.

Controversial I’m sure.

[mayoguinness]

I see what your saying. Though I don't think I do that do I?? I may say I don't like that halter cuz it puts to much presure on his nose or I don't like that saddle as it doesn't give me enough contact or is uncomfortable!! Thats what I pick up from Mayo though and thats what I go with. Generally if I'm uncomfortable it will make him uncomfortable to and visa versa...........................with me its all about Mayo, often I have to stop and realise that I do need to consider myslef too, if anything for his own benifit;)

[Yann]

I'd then start on another part of his body using approach and retreat. If he began to 'panic', I'd remove the bag but still keep it at a close distance (but never following or touching him with it while he was in 'panic mode').

I think we are talking about the same process, it was just the reference to taking the bag away from the horse when it got worried that prompted me to ask the question. If the horse became distressed or panicked then I'd consider that to be too much too soon and remove it too, which is hopefully what Dan and Grant did. Personally though if a horse is just moving away because it's suspicious or slightly concerned, then I don't see a problem with maintaining the same distance with the bag until the horse stops of its own free will. It shouldn't turn in to a chase though, if that's what's happening then it's time to back off again. Lovely horse BTW, looks like you've done a great job with him :)

I suppose there are some circumstances where having two handlers is going to be useful, for instance working at a distance with clippers, but I would only see the role of the person at the horses head as being there to reassure and also bring the horse back into the working area if it decides to or needs to wander.

What the horse does or doesn’t like, has or hasn’t evolved to cope with, doesn’t come into it just what is comfortable or not comfortable for the person working the horse.

Not sure about that one, for me the main thing is how the approach or method being used impacts on the horse, that's what I want to be comfortable with, not what is quickest or easiest in getting to a particular point with them. I suspect a lot of people would take that view, and that would be the main reason why they might pick and choose different ways of doing things rather than following one set of ideas. Interesting point though :)

[Chilli]

I see what your saying. Though I don't think I do that do I?? I may say I don't like that halter cuz it puts to much presure on his nose or I don't like that saddle as it doesn't give me enough contact or is uncomfortable!! Thats what I pick up from Mayo though and thats what I go with. Generally if I'm uncomfortable it will make him uncomfortable to and visa versa...........................with me its all about Mayo, often I have to stop and realise that I do need to consider myslef too, if anything for his own benifit;)

I was thinking along the lines of the two Halters, Rope and dually both can cause short trem disomfort/pain however you like to call it but in different ways.

If the horse want's to get away does it care the exact way the halter works or just the fact it's being restrained ? and when the horse is in whats refered to as flight mode i don't think it cares about anything except getting away.

So i don't see how in those circumstances the choice of halter used is for the horse's benifit, if one halter over the other did long term or permanent damage it would be a different matter.

Not sure about that one, for me the main thing is how the approach or method being used impacts on the horse, that's what I want to be comfortable with, not what is quickest or easiest in getting to a particular point with them. I suspect a lot of people would take that view, and that would be the main reason why they might pick and choose different ways of doing things rather than following one set of ideas. Interesting point though

Thats sort of the point, its' what the human percieves the impact on the horse to be not what the actual impact is from a horse's point of view.

Take flooding or laying a horse down both can be and are things people don't feel comfortable with yet they use parts of the horses natural behaviour/make up, so to the horse there is no reason for them to be uncomfortable with them, they have evolved to take into acount them happening to them or eveloved due to them happening either way it's part of there instinct/make up to deal with them.

Seems to me anyway :)

[india]

Just read this again and it hit me that most people talk about how they don’t like a particular piece of tack or a particular method because it’s to this or to that for them (and it seems to be a theme in a lot of NH discussions).

What the horse does or doesn’t like, has or hasn’t evolved to cope with, doesn’t come into it just what is comfortable or not comfortable for the person working the horse....
Surely, any person working with a horse should need to feel comfortable using the tools in their toolbox. I don't think many folk would continue to use a tool if their horse didn't like or had an adverse reaction to it.

Maybe it also explains why people follow trainers like Mark Rashid, Monty Roberts, Ray Hunt, Clinton Anderson etc but don’t follow parts because they are not acceptable to them, while the trainers work with what is acceptable to the horse.....
Wouldn't the above names have done exactly the same at some point -watched and learned from other trainers but only incorporated the parts of each they thought acceptable?

Surely, what one finds acceptable, another wouldn't....for instance, I doubt very much that Monty Roberts and Mark Rashid have very much in common in their training approach - yet both believe they work with what is acceptable to a horse more so than anything else.

Let's face it...I doubt if Monty Roberts would ever use a rope halter or likewise Mark Rashid a pressure halter - it's purely a matter of personal preference and what each believe to be best for the horse. :)

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[india]

I think we are talking about the same process, it was just the reference to taking the bag away from the horse when it got worried that prompted me to ask the question. If the horse became distressed or panicked then I'd consider that to be too much too soon and remove it too..
Phew, glad we've got that sorted. :)

Lovely horse BTW, looks like you've done a great job with him :)
Thanks Yann, I call him my wonder horse because I often used to wonder what possessed me to buy him. :D


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[Francis Burton]

Take flooding or laying a horse down both can be and are things people don't feel comfortable with yet they use parts of the horses natural behaviour/make up, so to the horse there is no reason for them to be uncomfortable with them, they have evolved to take into acount them happening to them or eveloved due to them happening either way it's part of there instinct/make up to deal with them.
Chilli - To me this implies that anything natural in a horse's life experience is acceptable for us to impose on a horse. Furthermore, we shouldn't feel bad about it. But that can't be right, can it? Discomfort, pain and fear are natural, but I would avoid causing the horse to feel these these unless I had a good reason to. Why? Because they are unpleasant for the horse! (Pain and discomfort overlap to some extent, though pain is generally considered to be worse.)

In the process of getting used to the sound of thunder, horses are exposed to something that causes fear - maybe enough to trigger the flight response initially. Whether they attempt to flee or not, they cannot escape from it. So this would be an example of flooding in a horse's natural experience. It is something they "have to deal with". However, that doesn't mean they are ever comfortable with fear. If they were, it wouldn't be such a strong motivator of behaviours geared towards survival.

What did you have in mind when you wrote "laying down" - being brought down by predators?

Anyway, while horses undoubtedly encounter lots of unpleasant things in their lives which they have to deal with, I don't think it follows that they are "comfortable" with them. Horses may experience thirst if watering opportunities are scarce. They are probably quite well adapted physiologically to tolerate dehydration. But does that justify us withholding water on a whim? I don't think so!

Almost certainly I have misconstrued your point. I must have. However, I'm not sure what you did mean. Could you clarify, please?!

[Chilli]

Chilli - To me this implies that anything natural in a horse's life experience is acceptable for us to impose on a horse. Furthermore, we shouldn't feel bad about it. But that can't be right, can it? Discomfort, pain and fear are natural, but I would avoid causing the horse to feel these these unless I had a good reason to. Why? Because they are unpleasant for the horse! (Pain and discomfort overlap to some extent, though pain is generally considered to be worse.)

In the process of getting used to the sound of thunder, horses are exposed to something that causes fear - maybe enough to trigger the flight response initially. Whether they attempt to flee or not, they cannot escape from it. So this would be an example of flooding in a horse's natural experience. It is something they "have to deal with". However, that doesn't mean they are ever comfortable with fear. If they were, it wouldn't be such a strong motivator of behaviours geared towards survival.

What did you have in mind when you wrote "laying down" - being brought down by predators?

Anyway, while horses undoubtedly encounter lots of unpleasant things in their lives which they have to deal with, I don't think it follows that they are "comfortable" with them. Horses may experience thirst if watering opportunities are scarce. They are probably quite well adapted physiologically to tolerate dehydration. But does that justify us withholding water on a whim? I don't think so!

Almost certainly I have misconstrued your point. I must have. However, I'm not sure what you did mean. Could you clarify, please?!


I think you have probably illustrated my point very well, I don’t disagree with what you say if you look at it from a humans point of view which we can’t help but do naturally.

What I’m saying is horses do not hold those same views, have the same concept of conscience/morality or look at things in the same way.

Modern NH was about listening to the horse and working with the horse’s instincts/natural behavior, but most NH discussions center around working with what humans feel acceptable and that is ironic.

It’s as simple as that, I’m not suggesting that anything natural in a horse's life experience is acceptable for us to impose on a horse.

That’s all, but if you want to look at how we do things differently to horses or horses to us IMO then……

If a horse was drinking and you wanted it to move or you just wanted the horse next to you to move, you wouldn’t bite/kick it or threaten to, some horses will as it’s part of the way they communicate/behave in their society.

Look at the personal space issue people talk about when they say respect or horse’s nipping/biting people.

Biting/kicking are part of the way horses communicate as is moving into personal space/barging etc, not things that are desirable to us but if you take a horse which has been trained to always keep it’s distance, never bites/nips or kicks out and look at it from the horses point of view, you could say that’s like me saying you can’t speak to me unless I speak to you first and you can’t speak in your language just the one I say for example german, that would be totally unacceptable for us but horses accept it all over the world.

Yes I was talking about the pray animal which has been taken down just before it’s ripped to bits.

IMO………….

[Chilli]

Surely, any person working with a horse should need to feel comfortable using the tools in their toolbox. I don't think many folk would continue to use a tool if their horse didn't like or had an adverse reaction to it.


Yes but if people thought about how the horse would respond/feel about the method used rather than how the human feels about the method they may be comfortable using methods they weren’t when they thought the horse would feel the same way as a person would IMO.

Wouldn't the above names have done exactly the same at some point -watched and learned from other trainers but only incorporated the parts of each they thought acceptable?

Surely, what one finds acceptable, another wouldn't....for instance, I doubt very much that Monty Roberts and Mark Rashid have very much in common in their training approach - yet both believe they work with what is acceptable to a horse more so than anything else.

Let's face it...I doubt if Monty Roberts would ever use a rope halter or likewise Mark Rashid a pressure halter - it's purely a matter of personal preference and what each believe to be best for the horse. :)

.

Well Mark Rashid only ever learnt from 1 person and then from his own experiences, but yes I would think they would, but I suggest it is based on the horses instincts/natural behavior rather than what most people would base their choices on IMO


All halters are pressure and rope are the second worst, after rope with knots for pressure centers.

The reason they are used is because they give a clearer signal which means more discomfort/pain, if your pulling on a rope halter all the force goes through the thin bit of rope on the nose, if that was a webbing halter the width would be say 10 times that of the rope and so the pressure would be ten times less.

It’s like a 10 stone person standing on your foot and a 10 stone person in stilettos.

Monty would only use something he’s making money out of (Cynic I know) and if I know Mark I think he would say they don’t offer anything a normal rope holter does so no reason to use one.

All IMO not forcing it on anyone.

[india]

Yes but if people thought about how the horse would respond/feel about the method used rather than how the human feels about the method they may be comfortable using methods they weren’t when they thought the horse would feel the same way as a person would IMO.

Maybe I'm missing something here (and apologies if I am - it's late and I'm tired):o , but I thought the previous comment (below) had already covered my general opinion on this?

Quote:
Surely, any person working with a horse should need to feel comfortable using the tools in their toolbox. I don't think many folk would continue to use a tool if their horse didn't like or had an adverse reaction to it

I would also add...this view also applies to different trainers and their training methods. ;)

.....if your pulling on a rope halter all the force goes through the thin bit of rope on the nose, if that was a webbing halter the width would be say 10 times that of the rope and so the pressure would be ten times less
Rope halters (especially the knotted type) should never be PULLED against a horse by the handler, they are designed to be used with slack in the rope. It's only when a horse braces against this type of halter that the pressure knots come into effect.

They are also lightweight, making them a lot more comfortable than webbing halters - that are heavier and also quite wide. Because of the width of these type of halters, the horse can easily learn to lean against them, which in itself can often cause leading and handling problems.

Just my opinion. :)

[Yann]

Yes but if people thought about how the horse would respond/feel about the method used rather than how the human feels about the method they may be comfortable using methods they weren’t when they thought the horse would feel the same way as a person would IMO.

That's a very valid point... it could arguably also be applied to the original subject of this thread by saying that the horses learned to get over their fear more quickly because they couldn't run away, though I'm not saying that's necessarily the case :D

However horses are very easy to read, I know if I used a training method on one of mine and it was confused and distressed as a result then that's how I'd feel about it too. For me what always counts when I watch or do something is how calm the whole process is and how quickly the horse responds and relaxes. Some stress is unavoidable, but keeping it at a low level is surely going to give the best results I would have thought. I'm not into 'wise sayings' but I do like 'adrenalin up, learning down' :D

Rope halters (especially the knotted type) should never be PULLED against a horse by the handler, they are designed to be used with slack in the rope. It's only when a horse braces against this type of halter that the pressure knots come into effect.

This is equally true of a pressure halter like the dually, which compared to a rope halter only acts in one place. Both types do the same thing by different means when they're used correctly and I think it's a bit of a red herring to differentiate greatly between them. I think this is one area where it's all pretty much one and the same to the horse, it's the humans that have the different preferences :) I think a horse will only lean on something if it's comfortable to do so, which is why we tend to prefer to use something more than a headcollar in a difficult situation, we can shout louder than the horse if we need to to begin with then whisper more quietly when it's listening (or try :D).

Pressure = force / area so the smaller the pressure point (thin rope, knots, studs) the greater the pressure that can potentially be exerted. All a closing halter does is give the handler a mechanical advantage, which is why the training ropes on a dually can be relatively thick. If you have both thinner rope, or studs and closing then you have something potentially more severe / subtle than either, eg Richard Maxwell halter or Be Nice.

[india]

...This is equally true of a pressure halter like the dually, which compared to a rope halter only acts in one place. Both types do the same thing by different means when they're used correctly and I think it's a bit of a red herring to differentiate greatly between them...

Pressure = force / area so the smaller the pressure point (thin rope, knots, studs) the greater the pressure that can potentially be exerted. All a closing halter does is give the handler a mechanical advantage, which is why the training ropes on a dually can be relatively thick. If you have both thinner rope, or studs and closing then you have something potentially more severe / subtle than either, eg Richard Maxwell halter or Be Nice.

I'm against the Dually type halters, because they're designed to put pressure on the extremely sensitive parts of a horses nose. I've never used one but this is something I know my lads would become very distressed about.

Although the knotted rope halters do concentrate more pressure on a smaller area, they're only intended to be used to increase sensitivity/communication between the horse and handler and are not designed to ever be used as a remedial tool - as [in my opinion] the dually is so often used for.

As I've mentioned in an earlier post, this is purely my personal preference - at the end of the day, it's up to the individual to determine what they believe their horse is or isn't comfortable with. :)

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[Yann]

No problem at all with anything you've written there other than

they're designed to put pressure on the extremely sensitive parts of a horses nose

Fitted correctly the training ropes should sit in the same position as a normal headcollar noseband ( and also presumably a rope halter) so not sure that is the case.

[Francis Burton]

It’s as simple as that, I’m not suggesting that anything natural in a horse's life experience is acceptable for us to impose on a horse.
That's a relief! :) Thanks for the clarification.

That’s all, but if you want to look at how we do things differently to horses or horses to us IMO then……

If a horse was drinking and you wanted it to move or you just wanted the horse next to you to move, you wouldn’t bite/kick it or threaten to, some horses will as it’s part of the way they communicate/behave in their society.
I guess it comes down to the effectiveness vs the humaneness of various actions and methods. Those that are effective and cause least unpleasantness for the horse are clearly best, but sometimes there is a trade-off between them and not everyone draws the line in the same place.

Of course, what constitutes "humane" treatment should be based on an understanding of how horses perceive the world (as imperfect as that necessarily is), rather than relying merely on the human point of view.

[india]

Fitted correctly the training ropes should sit in the same position as a normal headcollar noseband ( and also presumably a rope halter) so not sure that is the case.
Even fitted correctly the dually is specifically designed to apply pressure across the boney, thin skinned area of the horses nose. Although it's not fitted directly across the muzzle (heaven forbid) – in my opinion, it's still an extremely sensitive area for a training device to be used.

[Chilli]

Rope halters (especially the knotted type) should never be PULLED against a horse by the handler, they are designed to be used with slack in the rope. It's only when a horse braces against this type of halter that the pressure knots come into effect.


The horse can only brace if a person is pulling at the other end of the rope, if there was never a force/pull from the person or the horse there would be no point in the headcolar as it would just hang loosely doing nothing.

As far as I can see there is no difference between a person pulling on a rope and the horse pulling(as far as the amount of discomfort/pain generated), the end result is the same pressure/discomfort/pain on the horse’s part.

Can’t think of anyone who I’ve seen using an ordinary rope holter that hasn’t at some point ended up pulling/putting pressure on the horse(Usually instigated by the horse), Parelli, Mark Rashid, Monty, Ray Hunt, Tom Dorrance, Clinton Anderson, Josh Lyons etc, etc

They are also lightweight, making them a lot more comfortable than webbing halters - that are heavier and also quite wide. Because of the width of these type of halters, the horse can easily learn to lean against them, which in itself can often cause leading and handling problems.

I’m afraid I don’t agree with that at all, except one is lighter than the other, but as you say it’s just my opinion.

I don't think many folk would continue to use a tool if their horse didn't like or had an adverse reaction to it

However horses are very easy to read, I know if I used a training method on one of mine and it was confused and distressed as a result then that's how I'd feel about it too. For me what always counts when I watch or do something is how calm the whole process is and how quickly the horse responds and relaxes. Some stress is unavoidable, but keeping it at a low level is surely going to give the best results I would have thought. I'm not into 'wise sayings' but I do like 'adrenalin up, learning down'

Yes I agree, but if you are talking about something like flooding or laying a horse down it will be stressfull/uncomfortable/upseting for a period of time it’s pretty black and white, it’s not a case of deciding based on if the horse doesn’t like it or feel comfortable with it as you know from the start they won’t.

Just a decision of

a) If that’s a problem for the horse? (Rather than the person) and

b) Is there a benefit to the horse from using the technique greater than the negatives?

Unlike techniques where a horse gets upset/frustrated because it doesn’t understand what’s going on due to communication issue between the horse and handler.

But then is that problem with the technique or the implementation of it?


Although the knotted rope halters do concentrate more pressure on a smaller area, they're only intended to be used to increase sensitivity/communication between the horse and handler and are not designed to ever be used as a remedial tool

To take a relationship with a horse and increase sensitivity/communication by using something that uses more discomfort/pain seems unimaginable to me!!!

As I've mentioned in an earlier post, this is purely my personal preference - at the end of the day, it's up to the individual to determine what they believe their horse is or isn't comfortable with.

Can’t disagree with that it’s all any of us can do.

[Chilli]

I guess it comes down to the effectiveness vs the humaneness of various actions and methods. Those that are effective and cause least unpleasantness for the horse are clearly best, but sometimes there is a trade-off between them and not everyone draws the line in the same place.


For me your missing a third very important factor in the decision making process, Is there any benifit to the horse in using a specific technique over another.

[india]

The horse can only brace if a person is pulling at the other end of the rope, if there was never a force/pull from the person or the horse there would be no point in the headcolar as it would just hang loosely doing nothing.
I disagree, if a horse braces against a knotted halter, the handler should maintain a constant feel of the rope but NEVER pull against it. In all other situations the rope should remain slack.

As far as I can see there is no difference between a person pulling on a rope and the horse pulling(as far as the amount of discomfort/pain generated), the end result is the same pressure/discomfort/pain on the horse’s part.
There's no difference at all if this does actually occur but as far as I'm aware, there isn't a trainer that uses a knotted rope halter who actually demonstrates or promotes pulling on the rope.

Can’t think of anyone who I’ve seen using an ordinary rope holter that hasn’t at some point ended up pulling/putting pressure on the horse(Usually instigated by the horse), Parelli, Mark Rashid, Monty, Ray Hunt, Tom Dorrance, Clinton Anderson, Josh Lyons etc, etc.
My point exactly.....the pressure is instigated by the horse when he braces – not produced by the handler pulling on the rope.

Yes I agree, but if you are talking about something like flooding or laying a horse down it will be stressfull/uncomfortable/upseting for a period of time it’s pretty black and white, it’s not a case of deciding based on if the horse doesn’t like it or feel comfortable with it as you know from the start they won’t.
Personally, I would much prefer to help a horse through it's behaviour issues as comfortably and stress free for him as possible – if that's admitting to putting my feelings before anything else...then fair enough, I can live with that!

To take a relationship with a horse and increase sensitivity/communication by using something that uses more discomfort/pain seems unimaginable to me!!!.
I wouldn't attempt to deny that I've never inflicted some degree of discomfort on my horse(s) at some point in their training - and believe me, I've felt guilty about it every time. However, by being constantly aware of the importance of precise time and feeling – I believe I was able to keep it to the minimum.


Chilli - it would be really interesting to read what your actual training approach is and what tools you use. :)


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[Crystal Fire]

So much info on here, what an interesting thread. I'm just going to chip in a few things I've picked up on at random.
The surface area on a rope halter is less than a webbing headcollar, but not 10 times less or headcollars would look very wierd. Personally I don't think a properly fitted rope halter causes pain, but it can cause discomfort if anyone - horse or handler - puts a lot of pressure on it. I think even a headcollar could do that. But if they caused pain then I don't think horses would be quite so happy towing their owners around in them, they'd react differently ie maybe throwing the head or going up. I had a big cob who would regularly do a vanishing act if he got fed up or stressed with working, he'd do it with anyone no matter how wonderful and experienced a trainer they were. It hurt us a lot more than it hurt him (ie learn burns). Nice thing about him was that when he'd taken the pressure off himself, he'd come cantering back in a flying bundle of mane and feathers. Dramatic! :D
I think all good trainers aim to keep no more than constant pressure on their rope and horse's headgear. Unfortunately, horses can move faster than we can, so sometimes it's not possible to acheive that goal. But if it really hurt the horse to put this pressure on themselves I'm sure you'd see them starting, bringing themselves up short and head tossing - not just steadily building up momentum or jumping away.
I am one of those who often says "no pressure halters for me". This is why:
My 9 month old foal was being worked in a Dually by a properly trained and accredited professional (against whom I hold no grudge). My lovely baby was resisting loading and flung herself straight up in the air and went right over backwards when she felt the added pressure of the Dually. She landed hard and possibly this caused the problem that saw her retired almost as soon as I had backed and started to ride her.
Second anecdote - my good friend had a fiesty mare who was quite difficult to handle. She visited a well-known trainer and paid for some training in using the Be Nice (which he used then, but not now). All was well for a couple of weeks, her mare would still bounce about a bit, but feel the pressure and behave. Then the mare started to bounce, feel the pressure, and rear. Then rear as she was approached with the Be Nice. I have since seen very similar reactions in other horses. A behaviourist explained that a possible reason for this was the fact that there is a point on the top of the poll where pressure releases endorphins. Just as some horses fight neck twitches and light sedation, she said she had met a significant number of horses that would really obect to the endorphin release caused by a Be Nice. Whether or not that's true... but she is a respected person who has been published.
So for me there is a line between something that sits around the head, and something that will actually close around the head. But it's personal, if it works for someone else I wouldn't condem them.

[Yann]

I've read a lot of anecdotal evidence regarding horses rearing into the Be Nice and I'd be reluctant to use anything that tightened on the poll for that reason, be it one of those or a Richard Maxwell halter, but that's personal preferences again. I'm sure there's something in the poll theory though, Rio has a habit of leaning on the headcollar and going starry eyed sometimes, notably when having her feet done :)

[Francis Burton]

For me your missing a third very important factor in the decision making process, Is there any benifit to the horse in using a specific technique over another.
That's a good point!

[Chilli]

Chilli - it would be really interesting to read what your actual training approach is and what tools you use. :)



Not sure I can really do that but I’ll try

Its more about a philosophy than any particular method/techniques, everything involves these 3 key components

1) Relationship with the horse

2) Trust (I need to trust the horse and the horse needs to trust me)

3) Communication ( I need to be able to communicate with the horse and he to me, either in a way similar to horses to each other or another method we can both understand) I need to be able to understand what he’s telling me as much as he does me.

That’s what I aim to get, once I have those all I need to do is ask and if it’s physically possible he’ll try his best to do it.

Normally ride my horse in a Dr Cook and a Dressage saddle with SMB Elite boots, no hat, body protector, stick or spurs(wear a hat on the road), other horses we have are snaffle with a GP saddle, but I do ride all of them with no tack at all from time to time(Usually in the summer)

I do have a rope halter and 22ft rope, Rope hackamore. Dressage whip and lunge whip.

Use a webbing halter to tie them up to wash, travelling in the trailer or for the farrier, don’t use a head collar at all to take them to and from the paddocks just a lead rope loosely over the neck, don’t carry a whip to ride.

Rope halter is for ground work which is ok for addressing a specific issue/problem but when it’s sorted no more ground work, to me it’s like counting to ten or reciting the alphabet every day of your life, the horse must get bored to tears after it’s got it.

If your working on the ground or on the horse’s back you have the same problem/task communicating to the horse what you want, if your on the horse your doing it together on the ground your getting the horse to do it on it’s own, I prefer to be with the horse when learning/teaching him something.

Don’t use a round pen (We don’t have one) as to me I can do anything in a ménage that I can do in a round pen, I just have to move around/run about more.

Everything starts of as light as possible and goes up from there till it’s accomplished but from then on it’s trying to get it lighter and lighter, which is why using harsher equipment to increase sensitivity/communication seems unimaginable to me.

Tack like rope halters with knots are not for me as IMO you can’t do anything with them you can’t do with a rope halter your just doing it with more discomfort/pain for the horse.

I am not uncomfortable getting firm when (This is VERY important, ONLY when) required as I can never get anywhere near as firm as they are to each other when they are just playing in the paddocks.

As little as possible but as much as required are quite good ideals to me, as are feel and timing but that’s part of communication.

Being able to read a horse is very important but again that’s part of communication.

I am open to consider most things, although a lot are rejected straight away for various reasons including, something simpler/better is available or it’s just a gimic nothing new just a copy of something someone else is doing better or I just don’t agree with what they are doing as it’s negative to my relationship with a horse without any benefit to the horse.

I’ve studied Tom Dorrance, Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Pat Parelli, Monty Roberts, Michael Piece, Kelly Marks, Mark Rashid, Clinton Anderson, Richard Maxwell, Frank Bell, Kathleen Lindley, Denis Reise, John/Josh Lyons, Curt Pate, Kell Jeffries, Steve Halfpenny, Buck Brannahan and others

Been fortunate enough to see a lot in person and even luckier to have ridden with a few.

But since living with our horse for the last three years I have found the horse’s have taught me a huge amount more than most of this study, my relationships and the quality of work has been far better and we train/learn much faster which is why I prefer methods which are based on the horse’s natural behaviour/instincts.

I have never had the need to lie a horse down (or the skill/experience to do it) but if there was a case where it would help a horse I would be ok with it being done, but at the moment lie a horse down to me is when you go in the stable and you give him a hug before he gets up.

Besides even though I’ve studied them I don’t agree with some of them at all, it’s not until you see someone work with a horse and the results they get that you can really make a decision, it’s easy to talk a good fight IMO.

Still don’t think I’ve explained it at all well but it’s the best I can do in the time/medium of the web, plus this seems to have turned into a hijack, sorry.

All IMO, maybe you should start a thread where people detail their approach/methods? Would I be right in saying you were Parelli based but shied away from the more firm parts of his system?

[india]

It's amazing how our approaches appear to be so similar Chilli ........

Not sure I can really do that but I’ll try

Its more about a philosophy than any particular method/techniques, everything involves these 3 key components

1) Relationship with the horse

2) Trust (I need to trust the horse and the horse needs to trust me)

3) Communication ( I need to be able to communicate with the horse and he to me, either in a way similar to horses to each other or another method we can both understand) I need to be able to understand what he’s telling me as much as he does me.

That’s what I aim to get, once I have those all I need to do is ask and if it’s physically possible he’ll try his best to do it.
I have exactly the same principles. :)

Normally ride my horse in a Dr Cook and a Dressage saddle with SMB Elite boots, no hat, body protector, stick or spurs(wear a hat on the road), other horses we have are snaffle with a GP saddle, but I do ride all of them with no tack at all from time to time(Usually in the summer)
.
I've also got a Dr Cook but prefer to ride Beau (who hates bits in his mouth) in a natural hackamore – my other horse sometimes wears a loose ring snaffle, I ride with a GP saddle or bareback pad.

I do have a rope halter and 22ft rope, Rope hackamore. Dressage whip and lunge whip.
I've got a knotted rope halter, 12', 22', & 45' ropes, 2 carrot sticks and a natural hackamore.

Use a webbing halter to tie them up to wash, travelling in the trailer or for the farrier, don’t use a head collar at all to take them to and from the paddocks just a lead rope loosely over the neck, don’t carry a whip to ride.
Ditto.

Rope halter is for ground work which is ok for addressing a specific issue/problem but when it’s sorted no more ground work, to me it’s like counting to ten or reciting the alphabet every day of your life, the horse must get bored to tears after it’s got it.

If your working on the ground or on the horse’s back you have the same problem/task communicating to the horse what you want, if your on the horse your doing it together on the ground your getting the horse to do it on it’s own, I prefer to be with the horse when learning/teaching him something..
I do a lot of liberty groundwork and try to be as imaginative as possible by incorporating different obstacles and games into the 'school' work.

I believe the horse learns a task much quicker by teaching it from the ground first. He's able to look to the handler for guidance and reassurance (if needed) and the handler has a better concept of the overall actions and appearance of the horse

Everything starts of as light as possible and goes up from there till it’s accomplished but from then on it’s trying to get it lighter and lighter, which is why using harsher equipment to increase sensitivity/communication seems unimaginable to me...
Can't see any difference here either.....I use a knotted rope halter to help increase sensitivity/communication by the use of escalating pressure....always starting with the lightest of pressure but being prepared to increase it until he horse responds – my horse now responds to the lightest of pressure (mainly by body language at liberty or a suggestion (phase 1) when on line).

I am not uncomfortable getting firm when (This is VERY important, ONLY when) required as I can never get anywhere near as firm as they are to each other when they are just playing in the paddocks.

As little as possible but as much as required are quite good ideals to me, as are feel and timing but that’s part of communication.

Being able to read a horse is very important but again that’s part of communication.

I am open to consider most things, although a lot are rejected straight away for various reasons including, something simpler/better is available or it’s just a gimic nothing new just a copy of something someone else is doing better or I just don’t agree with what they are doing as it’s negative to my relationship with a horse without any benefit to the horse....
I agree with all of the above.

I have never had the need to lie a horse down (or the skill/experience to do it) but if there was a case where it would help a horse I would be ok with it being done, but at the moment lie a horse down to me is when you go in the stable and you give him a hug before he gets up.....
I would never lie an horse down unless it was absolutely necessary and vital for the horses well being.

Still don’t think I’ve explained it at all well but it’s the best I can do in the time/medium of the web.....
You've done a fantastic job Chilli - thankyou.

Would I be right in saying you were Parelli based but shied away from the more firm parts of his system?.....

You've got it in one Chilli.....I've got a lot of respect for Pat Parelli and his training method but it's no longer the only route I take.

[Yann]

Can't see any difference here either.....

I for one sometimes get the two of you mixed up LOL :)