Getting a horse on the bit - doing it with NH.

[inhs]

Getting a horse on the bit is something that most riders want to achieve. The immediate goal seems to be understood as 'getting the head down / in', which is somehow then followed by working more from the hindq, and this (here anyway) normally involves sidelines, lunging, puling a lot on the mouth, sawing at reins, etc.

So its something most people want to do, but something I think causes difficulty/frustration. Indeed when I was being taught the solution was a double bridle on my (lovely soft mouthed) horse and I was told to 'hold her in'.

Since then, I've figured out one way you can work towards this without too much fuss, just in a halter and a loose rein, compliments of Brad Weeks at the QNH Centre in Australia. :cool:

How would you all go about doing this NH style (i.e. no side reins, no double bridles, stonrg bits, no lunging, instead with a loose rein, supple & relaxed a la NH) ?

[Bebe]

Oooh, this is one to sink your teeth into!

How I go about it with my horse now is to suck up my stomach muscles, lengthen and drape my lower leg and ride forwards, whilst still staying soft through my body. Initially I did need to have a contact on the reins in order to recycle the energy being created from behind but as my horse got stronger and more responsive I was able to do this without any rein contact at all - self-carriage. This sounds much easier than it actually is, at least for me as it takes a great deal of core strength (which I no longer have after not riding properly for 4 months, and nor does my horse!) and feel on the riders part.

Obviously this didn't happen overnight, training this took about 18 months from start to finish, partly because my horse had no concept of using herself correctly but also because it takes that long to build the strength required for the horse to carry itself correctly (it can take longer for some horses, especially youngsters, less so for older horses who have been fittened previously). The starting point for this training was a horse who was able to go long and low correctly, sought the contact forwards (no pulling chin in to chest here) and trusted the riders hands. The end point is infinite, you'll always be working towards more collection, more straightness, more self-carriage, etc. I'm limited by my own lack of ability & drive, I do this for fun so sometimes slack off but also because my horse has physical limitations so we just do what we're able to.

In theory, this method, and any method that doesn't rely on the reins to create the horses shape through the neck and poll may not be recognised by some as "being on the bit", partly because some people believe it can't be done without involving a bit and reins and partly because some people don't recognise on the bit as anything other than horses chin to it's chest (which I call overbent or behind the bit). It wouldn't be recognised in dressage circles as correct either, though good western riders are more than capable of achiving a horse who is "on the bit" with a looser rein.

[Mehitabel]

i'd take issue with your first paragraph - i've never been taught that, it's always been the nose coming in and neck arching as a symptom of working properly through the back and engaging the back end - and my instructors have been as traditional and BHS as they come. i'm not denying the attitude you quote is out there - but it's not a NH/non-NH divide, IMO it's a good and bad training divide.

as bebe says, in dressage riding you want the horse to seek a contact with the rein and the aim is not no rein contact - but for instance i've been made to ride with a loop or sewing cotton between bit and reins, to ensure i'm using them only as a communication device and not hauling on the mouth, or asking a horse to work in an outline (including school movements, at walk, trot and canter, in a school with others) with no reins at all, hands on my hips or arms folded. that was for my BHS NVQ 3 exam.

[Bay Mare]

i'd take issue with your first paragraph - i've never been taught that, it's always been the nose coming in and neck arching as a symptom of working properly through the back and engaging the back end - and my instructors have been as traditional and BHS as they come. i'm not denying the attitude you quote is out there - but it's not a NH/non-NH divide, IMO it's a good and bad training divide.


I agree, I've never been taught that either though, unfortunately, it does go on more than it should :( Anything for a quick fix. I don't use side reins, double bridle or a strong bit either just correct training methods whether working with a bit or not.

[inhs]

OK... I'm thinking more of an easy step by step approach....

What groundwork do you need to do first, and then what riding do you need to do?

It was something I would have loved to have had as a young rider trying to get my pony club cob on the bit. (I had to resort to double bridles, bloody hands and puling on her mouth which I hated)

So simple steps, that you could see some good progress with, in maybe a month or two..............

[coss]

i'd take issue with your first paragraph - i've never been taught that, it's always been the nose coming in and neck arching as a symptom of working properly through the back and engaging the back end - and my instructors have been as traditional and BHS as they come. i'm not denying the attitude you quote is out there - but it's not a NH/non-NH divide, IMO it's a good and bad training divide.

as bebe says, in dressage riding you want the horse to seek a contact with the rein and the aim is not no rein contact - but for instance i've been made to ride with a loop or sewing cotton between bit and reins, to ensure i'm using them only as a communication device and not hauling on the mouth, or asking a horse to work in an outline (including school movements, at walk, trot and canter, in a school with others) with no reins at all, hands on my hips or arms folded. that was for my BHS NVQ 3 exam.

I agree, I've never been taught that either though, unfortunately, it does go on more than it should :( Anything for a quick fix. I don't use side reins, double bridle or a strong bit either just correct training methods whether working with a bit or not.

i agree with both Mehitabel and Bay Mare, i have never been taught that the front end should be hauled in and then get the back end to work hard. this method is out there and there are many riders that resort to "gadgets" to "achieve" and outline/on the bit.

i don't use a strong bit and use a very light contact but i always have a contact unless specifically proving self-carriage and i get the back end to work harder than normal (if the horse is new to this way of working) by circling and doing lateral movements, anything to engage the backend more. this may include transitions but it depends on the horse. the head will lower and the back will come up (all with the hindquarters engaged) if you are soft and supple to allow it to happen. i am reschooling my mare and to begin with any rein contact would make her throw her head up and see sawing methods (which i watched someone attempt for a couple of seconds in shock) don't work, the more you try to force the head down the higher it goes. you have to work the back end, and the front end will eventually fall into place. :)

[Yann]

i've never been taught that

I have, it was the standard way of doing it with one of the instructors at the riding school I went to and it was bloody awful, resulted in a tense horse and exhausted rider.

Where does using a pelham fit in to the equation?

[Mehitabel]

Where does using a pelham fit in to the equation?

for me (since you quoted my post), or in 'NH'?

[Yann]

Not specific to you :) They are quite popular as a method of teaching horses to work nicely in an outline in some circles (used one myself) but I can't really see how they're that different to using a double for the same purpose.

[Mehitabel]

i don't use them to teach an outline - either a pelham or a double, i think they are best used for refining and collecting the novice 'snaffle' outline that is already there, not teaching it from a starting point of nose pokiness and on the forehand. they do have a place as a short term thing so give a lightbulb moment, but t's something i'd do as a last resport when normal methods weren't working and i was at a loss.

[Bebe]

My horse has extremely weak feet and they fall apart without shoes on. She only used to have fronts on but her back hooves just couldn't take being bare. Bad farriery again?

I've never used a double but my understanding is that the double should be used for finesse and the bradoon and weymouth have 2 different and separate effects. It takes a lot of skill to use one properly and I think a lot of people use them simply for extra brakes or a nice outline, much as the pelham can be used.

If you're talking purely in terms of outline I don't think there is much difference to be honest, bar the pelham taking up less space in the mouth and not offering the separate action. I use it with Bebe for 2 reasons; schooling the curb encourages her to relax her jaw, something that has been a serious issue for her and out hacking because if she gets strong I know she will listen to the curb without getting upset by it. It also suits her small mouth.

Echo MHB in that they shouldn't be used to teach an outline. I only put Bebe back in it when she was offering at the point of being able to offer real power behind. In a snaffle she was reluctant to soften through the jaw and poll so we were losing the lovely energy from behind as it couldn't cycle back up to my hands and seat. The pelham was a refinement purely to teach her that she could relax and soften. I'd go back to the snaffle now for schooling if I wanted to compete but as I don't it's easier to just use one bit & bridle and use the top rein for schooling (though you do still get some curb action) and 2reins for hacking.

the more you try to force the head down the higher it goes. you have to work the back end, and the front end will eventually fall into place.

True, but my mare needed to realise that the front end could fall into place full stop. She wasn't the easiest horse to reschool though and there was a lot of previous poor training (or rather just a lack of it) and some physical issues to overcome.

but t's something i'd do as a last resport when normal methods weren't working and i was at a loss.

:nod:

[mayoguinness]

Not at that stage yet unfortuanitly but hopefully soon will be, my NH RI when I watch her teach seems to mention getting on the bit when there is no bit so I shall wait and see:)

[inhs]

OK, when I mean 'NH' I mean in a halter (no bit) or basic bridle, on a loose or very light rein contact, and without any type of specific bit, etc.

Is there a straightforward / simple to explain, way to do this?

[mayoguinness]

Yep thats how I ride but no I would have no idea of a straightforward way to explain it as, well I can't do it yet;) Sorry, hope you find someone to explain:),

MG.xx

[inhs]

Hi MayoG :)

I've worked out a way myself, but I want to see what other people come up with first though! :)

This 'on the bit' business, (before I did NH) if you weren't happy to go down the sidereins / double bridle / pull them in route, 'figuring out how to go 'on the bit' was a little like rocket science. No one could give me a simple answer!

We'll see anyway. I have great hope :)

[Mehitabel]

if you want an 'english style' outline (western is a whole other kettle of fish), then you do need some contact - the horse has to be reaching willingly forward into it, not backing off the bit/bridle. it's not specific to a bit - i've taught horses to go in an outline in headcollars, scawbrigs etc, but you do need a rein contact otherwise all the energy you create asking the hind legs to step under and become active just goes out the front - you need some contact for the horse to work into, which is when it drops the nose and arches the neck. once the horse understands this you can work towards a lighter and lighter contact and having the horse hold itself there - but that is not possible right from the beginning, the horse will not understand what you want.

i like to use spirally circles for the inital teaching - as you ask the horse to step over (spiralling down from 20-10m, aiming for about 1/2 a metre per circle, then out again at the same rate by leg yielding) with the hind leg, it takes longer steps, drops the bottom and lifts the wither, and from there the nose drops and the neck arches. lots of praise, and as it builds up it can maintain it out of the circle. the bend helps the horse to step under. while you shouldn't use the reins to tug the head in, they do need to be there to help maintain the bend and give the horse a framework to work within.

[mayoguinness]

Hi MayoG :)

I've worked out a way myself, but I want to see what other people come up with first though! :)

This 'on the bit' business, (before I did NH) if you weren't happy to go down the sidereins / double bridle / pull them in route, 'figuring out how to go 'on the bit' was a little like rocket science. No one could give me a simple answer!

We'll see anyway. I have great hope :)

Ah I see:D :rolleyes: I'll watch whats said with interest too:)

[Afellpony]

That's the way I was taught. However, I find that for me and Falcon it works better if I have a slightly longer rein than the short taughtly held rein some peeps use. When I'm working him in the school (after I've warmed him up) I squeeze with my legs and hands simultaneously and ask him to come down on the bit whilst resisting with my hands. He's beginning to get the idea - but, having a short strong neck, he doesn't have the mobility that a horse with a longer neck has got. So, unless I give him clear, concise aids, he tends to set his neck which means I have to go over the whole thing again. First by riding him on a long rein, then gradually shortening it. He also tends to try and put his head up which makes him hollow but this is definitely improving as he's not doing it so much. I would be interested to hear if anyone else has any different ideas which could be better.I am not using any artifical aids.

[Centyfield_Mica]

Try reading a Mary Wanless book or better still book on a course on Oxford with your horse - it changed my life and outlook and alhough I thought I was a good sympathetic rider, I couldnt have been more wrong!

[RachelEvent]

It's got nothing to do with 'NH', purely and simply to do with good riding.

To be in an outline and to be on the bit are different things. The latter can only be done with a bridle and bit, ridden into a contact. A horse that works round with no contact is usually curling up from the bridle rather than being on the bit.

Most people's problems with tension in asking for the horse to come on to the bit are because people haven't learnt the feel required to reward the horse quickly and minutely the minute they soften. It takes a long time to be able to do this well, it becomes a subliminal conversation through the fingers.

Rather than proclaiming a whole new technique, most of us riders need to learn to keep our basic positions free of tension, and learn a greater amount of feel in regards to the contact. There MUST however, BE a contact. The horse is to work forwards into the bit, and when invited by a lengthening of the rein, the horse should follow the bit down. Many riders make the mistake of riding along with an open hand, mistaken that it is in fact a kinder hand. However, an open hand creates an inconsitent rein contact - to have a firm hand on the reins but with an elastic elbow, wrist and shoulder is the kinder option.

Good BHS instruction is as kind to the horse as any NH method.

Edited to add: I also think that it is an essential element of basic schooling that the horse learns to soften longitudinally. This, in fact, has to be acheived to a certain extent before the horse can bend truely laterally (the poll must be flexed for the horse to bend through the neck evenly..) So even if I am riding a very green horse, yes I will be concerned about the basic position of their head and neck, as it is crucial that they start to develop the correct muscles to lift through the back, and carry a rider effectively, early on in the schooling process. A baby outline, soft and long through the neck is very different to an up-and-together, or a wrongly overbent outline.

[mayoguinness]

I have no idea what it looks like when a horse is "on the bit" or in an outline as I've never really took an interest though my NH instructer often points out the horse is on the bit though we all ride bitless, would this horse be considered as "on the bit" or in an outline?? www.nevzorov-haute-ecole.com/en/photogallery.php?id=71&gid=1

[mayoguinness]

or this one?? www.nevzorov-haute-ecole.com/en/photogallery.php?id=34&gid=1&min=27 www.nevzorov-haute-ecole.com/en/photogallery.php?id=138&gid=9&min=9

[Crystal Fire]

I'm not contributing to this at all until I've done it with my new horse. I think I know what I'd doing... but we'll see! :)

[coss]

mayoguinness... i would say they weren't "on the bit" as there is no bit for them to be on but i dislike the term anyway as it only descirbes head carriage. if those horses had a bit in their mouth i would say on the bit rather than in an outline as they don't seem that engaged behind the saddle... their back end hasn't lowered if that makes sense.

[inhs]

This 'on the bit' its three words which dont really mean very much and in some instances you dont need a bit to do this....(I ride in a halter).. maybe if we could write down all the 'ingredients' in this, then we could devise a plan to implement each part............

My ingredient list:

1. Loose, un-tense shoulders. If a horse has his front two feet planted into the ground, his shoulders will be braced, and thus head will be high, hollow back, no hindq engagement.

2. Relaxed horse. A relaxed horse will have his head lower than a nervous horse, making a rounded back and engaged hindend a possibility.

3. Supple horse. Can do hindq yields and foreq yields. You don't want your horse to be stiff as a board, either vertically or horizontally.

4. Soft ribs. Can do sidepasses and understands how to wrap inside around your inside leg.

5. Lateral flexion. Can turn his head in dorection he is moving in.

6. Tracking up. (amount will depend on confirmation too) to do this you ned a low head, a little poll flexion, loose shoulders, and a rounded back.

7. Impulsion

Can anyone add any other ingredients???? (I've probably forgotton some!)

[mayoguinness]

So thats what a horse should be like to be "on the bit"?? As I say Jayne Lavender often says that someones on the bit when they haven't got a bit in there mouthes, I don't think she beleives a bit is needed, it should be in that case "on the bitless":p

[RachelEvent]

Yes, i'm not saying that horses without a bit can't work well, but they certainly can't be 'on the bit' - the terminology is all wrong! In a 'correct outline' or 'working through' would be better ways of putting it.

At any rate, i still think the horse has to be asked for logitudinal flexion - it's not something that happens magically when everything else is right. You can't GET everything else right unless there is already logitudinal flexion to a certain extent.

[Chilli]

It's got nothing to do with 'NH', purely and simply to do with good riding.

To be in an outline and to be on the bit are different things. The latter can only be done with a bridle and bit, ridden into a contact. A horse that works round with no contact is usually curling up from the bridle rather than being on the bit.

Rather than proclaiming a whole new technique, most of us riders need to learn to keep our basic positions free of tension, and learn a greater amount of feel in regards to the contact. There MUST however, BE a contact. The horse is to work forwards into the bit, and when invited by a lengthening of the rein, the horse should follow the bit down. Many riders make the mistake of riding along with an open hand, mistaken that it is in fact a kinder hand. However, an open hand creates an inconsitent rein contact - to have a firm hand on the reins but with an elastic elbow, wrist and shoulder is the kinder option.



Personally i don't agree with that, the way i ride a horse with a bit or without is the same, as is the result.

It's all about comunication and that can be done with or without a bit as far as i am concerned.

I think it also demonstrates the two approaches, a good rider can hold/force a horse into an outline/frame while a good trainer can teach the horse to carry himself in the required outline/frame IMO.

No bit involved here just a Dr Cook.

http://i17.tinypic.com/2u3ummt.jpg

[suneanarab]

again this is a subjective area of training and terminology. as for the pics that mayo posted, the horse does look in one of them as though it could be 'on the bit' if it were to have a bit in it's mouth. however, in reality, as coss says the horse is not working from behind and so is hollow through the back, and looks tense through the neck.

unfortunatly for nh this is picture that is often associated with ridden nh. this is why i prefer to mix it with classical riding.

my horses work correctly whether in a halter or bridle and no matter what bit they have. quite honestly it makes no difference how much metal the horse has in its mouth it should and can do the job without it if trained correctly. it buggs the hell out of me that i have to compete my open horses in double reins. why should i when they are perfectly capable of doing what is needed without it.

odin can piaffe and passage, half pass and levade all without a bit and working correctly. so for me it's more a matter of working towards being without than working to a bit. all my horses have been backed without bits and only have them coz they are needed for competing or for the people who are going to buy them.

all correct working from the horse has to come from the ground first! when ridden i always encourage my horse to work low and stretched out to warm up the muscle. even this in itself is a progressive thing to ask for. i want my horse to be stepping well up under the body from behind. i think very little about what the head is doing as self carriage comes from making sure everything is correct from behind first. most of what i do comes from the body and the amount of what you do is different for every horse. all the horses that i have been asked to school because they are bad in the head carriage or mouth have a problem with working from behind and listening to what the riders body is telling them. within 20mins max i have always been able to get the horse soft and in self carriage (on the bit or anything else you want to call it) just from concentrating on the back end.

the horse needs to be strong to do this and it's as much about what the horse does with his stomach muscles as any other. to be soft in the back and neck he must have strong stomach muscles. therefore i never ask the horse to carry himself for more then a couple of stides to start with and then ask for the stretch again to keep everything relaxed. i never ask for anything in trot that the horse can't do for a good length of time in walk. i have been known to do as little as six canters in 6 months in the school. out hacking is different, but in the school the horse needs the strength and thast doesn't happen over night. it can take as long as a year to eighteen months for the muscle structures to change from the wrong build to how they should be.

[puzzles]

'on the bit' is merely the iceberg topping of a horse moving forwards, accepting the bit in a relaxed way and with impulsion and engagement powering from behind.
f**K the bit, horses can and do do it in the field!
xx

[mayoguinness]

Finding it all very interesting:)


f**K the bit, horses can and do do it in the field!
xx

Yeah exactly puzzles:D

[Lili & Morgan]

'
f**K the bit, horses can and do do it in the field!
xx

Yes it is true! But they do NOT carry a rider on their back :rolleyes:

Training/ dressage is to train a horse to carry the weight of the rider in the most efficient and harmless way for the horse.

Untrained horse will have hollow back, you can hear them cantering (with rider) slamming their feet on the ground, because they are ON THEIR SHOULDER !!!

Now HOW?
Well it depends the type of horse you have! It is obvious that a downhill, long back horse ( pleasure QH) will have more difficulty than a uphill, short back horse ( Iberians type, warmblood).
My own mare carries herself in walk and trot, but she is still very "heavy" read flat, and on her shoulder for cantering.
Proper training will help her developp the right muscles for carrying herself ... BTW, It takes YEARS ...

Proper training, lateral work, cavaletti, but also hacking down and up hill at slow gaits for using her back !

Have fun it is a long journey :cool:

[RachelEvent]

I think it also demonstrates the two approaches, a good rider can hold/force a horse into an outline/frame while a good trainer can teach the horse to carry himself in the required outline/frame IMO.


Chilli, i see your point, but I must agree to disagree. In the photo you posted, yes the horse is holding himself up, but the overall picture is not the one I am aiming for.

Yes, it's nice that the horse works in a rounded shape, but when the horse is 'on the bit' (with the essential contact) the horse is in a frame decided by the rider, if I were to offer a lengthened rein, the horse would follow my suggestion and stretch down, and equally were I to shorten the rein, the horse would shorten their carriage respectively. This doesn't mean that there is any 'holding' going on at all, just that there is connection. In the photo you have posted, there is no connection, the contact is loose. Therefore, any aids given through the reins will be instantly visible and thus coarser than one would like.

To me, the image you post is almost behind the contact - either that or the contact is inconsitent. The horse is meant to stretch into the length of the reins, stretching over the top of their body, pushing under with the hindleg and lightening the forehand. in the photo the horse appears to be withdrawing from any contact and I'd guess is slightly behind the leg ( the fact that the rider's leg is drawing up also suggests this...) it is still a nice picture overall, but not 'on the bit' or even 'on the contact'

I still maintain, a horse can't be on the bit if there is no bit. I'm not denying a bitless horse can't work well, (they can be 'on the contact'), just if there's no bl**dy bit, the horse cannot be 'on' it! :o

[notpoodle]

rachel, rachel, what HAVE you got yourself into? :D

JUlia
x

[cvb]

Could "On the bit" be genericised to "on the aids" or is that too fuzzy and vague ?

inhs's ingredient list:

1. Loose, un-tense shoulders. - surely this is covered in 2 ? If they are tense, they won't have loose shoulders ? I think this is duplication and is a detail relating to "relaxed"

2. Relaxed horse. A relaxed horse will have his head lower than a nervous horse, making a rounded back and engaged hindend a possibility.

3. Supple horse. Can do hindq yields and foreq yields. You don't want your horse to be stiff as a board, either vertically or horizontally.
5. Lateral flexion. Can turn his head in dorection he is moving in.
4. Soft ribs. Can do sidepasses and understands how to wrap inside around your inside leg.


- I think they need to be laterally flexible *both* ways, but I also think this is covered in 3 already

6. Tracking up. (amount will depend on confirmation too) to do this you ned a low head, a little poll flexion, loose shoulders, and a rounded back.

Would make this "Active" and then perhaps it becomes a duplication with 7...

7. Impulsion

Can anyone add any other ingredients???? (I've probably forgotton some!)

Yep - I'd add "straight" and something that covered "acceptance/submission to the aids". (where this is about them being willing to do as asked, not about them being cowed and "dominated").

None of above is unique to NH.... ;)

[Chilli]

Chilli, i see your point, but I must agree to disagree. In the photo you posted, yes the horse is holding himself up, but the overall picture is not the one I am aiming for.

Yes, it's nice that the horse works in a rounded shape, but when the horse is 'on the bit' (with the essential contact) the horse is in a frame decided by the rider, if I were to offer a lengthened rein, the horse would follow my suggestion and stretch down, and equally were I to shorten the rein, the horse would shorten their carriage respectively. This doesn't mean that there is any 'holding' going on at all, just that there is connection. In the photo you have posted, there is no connection, the contact is loose. Therefore, any aids given through the reins will be instantly visible and thus coarser than one would like.

To me, the image you post is almost behind the contact - either that or the contact is inconsitent. The horse is meant to stretch into the length of the reins, stretching over the top of their body, pushing under with the hindleg and lightening the forehand. in the photo the horse appears to be withdrawing from any contact and I'd guess is slightly behind the leg ( the fact that the rider's leg is drawing up also suggests this...) it is still a nice picture overall, but not 'on the bit' or even 'on the contact'

I still maintain, a horse can't be on the bit if there is no bit. I'm not denying a bitless horse can't work well, (they can be 'on the contact'), just if there's no bl**dy bit, the horse cannot be 'on' it! :o

Yes i think we will have to agree to disagree, if we take the picture first, I agree it's not ridden in any contact, but i can easily ride in a contact and to be honest it's what i normally do, it's just a picture taken when i happened to be on a loose rein and this means i can(and do) this just as easily "I were to offer a lengthened rein, the horse would follow my suggestion and stretch down, and equally were I to shorten the rein, the horse would shorten their carriage respectively."

You can say anything about how bad the riding is as i know it's crap but i'm trying to improve and i'm not dead yet so there is hope :)).

I guess we don't have the same idea how a horse should go, this is the sort of thing i aspire to and if you look at the horse, not the rider and the reins i don't see the differances you seem to in the outlines.

Although some of these necks look a bit scrawny to me but thats probably down to the breed.

http://www.cyberhorse.net.au/tve/athens2004/250804/450pics/escapado3.jpg

http://www.tielceypark.co.nz/user/image/medium/304/Amanda%20G%20(10).jpg

http://www.equinemarketinggroup.com/DressageRoyal.JPG

http://www.equinemarketinggroup.com/RIT8.jpg

http://www.iei.ul.ie/images/photos/dublin_hs2002/dressage.jpg

[cvb]

so where does "self-carriage" fit into this ?

playing devil's advocate here ;)

but in early dressage tests you do a "give and retake" with one or both reins and the horse is supposed to maintain the outline and not fall flat on their face i.e. be in self-carriage ?

Did Chilli's photo simply show that moment of self-carriage ?

[RachelEvent]

The give and retake always seems to cause a bit of controversy. It's both useful - a test that the horse isn't leaning on the bit and doesn't fall flat on it's face, or throw it's head into the air when the contact is taken away. Equally though, it's an odd movement to ride, as you do essentially give the contact away, and not neccessarily at a moment when it is appropriate to do so (ie, when the horse requires lightening..) I don't like it! Thankfully, it goes away at Elementary!

In my give and retake (remembering it is only 2-3 strides) I have never been marked down for the horse beginning to stretch down, but straight away when I retake the rein, bringing itself back into the original outline without resistance. I have been marked down when horse has got much too excited about the whole thing though!!

[Bling]

I agree that the "giving away" is uncomfortable. I want an advanced horse to be "on" my hand ---the amount would depend on the individual --- waiting for me. It's like holding hands, and the horse stretches to meet you. I only like to give away reins at the walk, when it's obviously a "take a break, sweetie" time.

[Lili & Morgan]

There are lost of vocabulary used on this thread, but I am not sure that it is understood what they really mean :D

On the bit : it is a crap translation of the Général Decarpentry ( Co-writter of the FEI dressage rules), "en main". On the aids is a better translation. The horse is responding at the lightest leg pressure and the lightest hand pressure. In NH, you would say that your horse is connected to you.

Contact and Self-carriage are TWO very different things!

Contact ... well you need a bit in the horse mouth :p, it is about communication. A squeeze of your fingers and opening of the fingers, it is all that it takes. It is a line of communication, you would like a " happy, mouth", that holds the contact, that chews, and swallows the bit, fairly active mouth really. This is in the context of Dressage.

Self-carrieage When the horse has developped enough muscles to be able to balance his weight alone without the help of his rider. It takes up to 6 years, with proper constant training.
The test of self carrieage is the famous " descente des mains", when you drop the contact by lowering your hands to check/test that the horse is carrying himself --- > the horse carries in a balance manners his rider.

Now a horse can carry himself without contact. I have seen well balanced horses in hackamore/DrCook/ Rope halter. Also Western reiners have their horses balanced with no contact.

Contact is about communication, NOT HOLDING A HORSE IN FRAME.

A bit is only a refining tool of communcation that allows you to feel if your horse is tensing his right-hand-side jaws and therefore his right-hand side muscles of his neck are tensed, you need to release them for relaxation etc ...

But it exists different type of riding. NH riding comes from Western riding, with no contact.

So choose your side :D

Personnally I have two horses, one western/NH who does not understand contact at all, because he was taught to give to the bit, so he is unable to hold the contact. So I ride him with NO contact, I use half-halt, shoulder-in, travers to balance him.
I have an English riding horse, who works with contact.

As long as your horse is balanced for carrying a rider, it is down to personnal choice!

[RachelEvent]

Lili, I'd agree with most of your definitions, save contact - you describe a good contact, but it is possible also to have a bad contact - contact by definition could be good or bad or anywhere in between.

I'm not saying that the contact holds the horse into a frame, but rather the length of contact will define the frame that I was working in.

[suneanarab]

i think that if you say you need a short rein to feel contact you have no feel. i ride my horses (including the ones i train for others) in halters and i can still feel whether they are tence in the jaw or mouth. i can give an aid down a rope or a piece of string and i'm not sure you would know i've done it. i've had many people watch and try when they have said you can't be refined unless you have a bit and a contact (shorter rein, coz lets not forget that a storter rein does not mean you have a contact). and just coz you don't have a firm contact doesn't mean you have an inconsistent contact either. even with a shorter rein you get an inconsistent contact if the horse is not strong enough to carry himself in the way you want him to. some dressage riders are a prime example of this, even at top level.

it's all about how good you are at riding and not interfering too much with the horses natural way of going. i'm sure that the horse has self carriage in the field and works in an outline that would be termed as on the bit (if he were to have one in his mouth for the must have bits in people) when he wants to. as yet i never saw a horse fall flat on his face when the rein was given even if he were over bent.

as i already said, this is a subjective issue, just because you do it one way doesn't mean that it can't be done another. and just coz you can't do it one way doesn't mean it can't be done by someone else with more experience.

[mayoguinness]

Where does soft feel come into all of this - or does it??

[puzzles]

a horse can still be accepting and soft without a rider actually physically feeling it - if a tree falls in the middle of an empty forest, dopes it still make a sound? of course it does! how do you know? you just have to trust what you do know and the facts of logic.

[RachelEvent]

suzannearab - how would you consider this example? My horse, under saddle, has been very successful at novice and elementary BD under saddle. He is a very responsive, fairly sensitive ride - when working on the flat, I ride in with a soft but hoefully very consistent contact. His work is balanced with plenty of impulsion.

However, his conformation is poor, and his natural way of working - when watched loose in the field, is very much on the forehand, strung out and slightly 'clumsy' looking...


We can, and have, done a lot of work riding in a halter (often jumping, going out on galloping exercise) but because his natural way of going is so poor, I can't ride along on a long rein and expect him to work beautifully completely of his own accord, no matter how little I was to interfere with him!

[Lili & Morgan]

. i'm sure that the horse has self carriage in the field and works in an outline that would be termed as on the bit (if he were to have one in his mouth for the must have bits in people) when he wants to. as yet i never saw a horse fall flat on his face when the rein was given even if he were over bent.


Suneanarab - I have to agree to disagree with you. Yes I have seen horses "au naturel falling flat on their face well actually flat on their side, because they were galloping down a hill on their shoulders and oups a bad turn ... Bang.

Horses can break their leg too, being "au naturel" playing in the field.

I believe if a horse has a poor conformation ( long back, downhill), no he is not going to self-carry himself in the field ! :eek:

I do not understand what you mean by short reins. Contact can be achieved at the weight of the reins, especially if the horse wears a curb bit :rolleyes:
Out of pure curiosity how do you feel that your horse is bracing his jaw while riding in an halter? It is an honest question. As i would like to know what to look for when I ride my horse in his ropehalter. Thanks.

RachelEvent : do you mean that when you lenghten the rein your horse should "chew the reins down" as to go as a long and low frame???

Just asking I think it is only semantic :p

[Chilli]

If you forget about bits, bitless, affiliated, unaffiliated, different riding styles and training methods e.g. English, German, French, North American etc

What I’m missing is what you see that makes you suggest “the image you post is almost behind the contact”

It’s a serious question what can you see that I can’t it’s been puzzling me for days, these are a few high level dressage horses to compair and I’m really struggling to see where your coming from? Any help would be appreciated

http://i15.tinypic.com/4lgrdzr.jpg

[Lili & Morgan]

Chili - Don't worry :D

Your pic looks much better than the others you posted except the last one.

"Behind the contact" : it is when a horse tries to evade the hands/contact, and refuses to take contact with the bit. The mean for evading the hands, will be to close the angle head/neck, the poll is NOT the highest point, it is his third vertebra! The funny thing is the horse will appear very light to the hand.

In your pic, the poll is still the higest point. But to get the full pic you need to see what the hind does ...

Some horses can be in "pieces", their front does soemthing and their back soemthjing else.
In Dressage, because of the Rolkhur techinique, you will see a correct front, but hindlegs trailing miles away.
In western riding, you will a nice engaged hind, but a horse in front will be behind the vertical and on his shoulders.

You need to watch the BIG picture!!

BTW, what a horrid pic is the second one, the horse face is at the vertical, and his poll is at his highest, but look at the curb bit angle ... if is it not "being pulled into frame", not much self-carrying there :eek: I guess it is an extended trot pic, I would be interested to see where the hindlegs are ...

An interesting article is this one :
http://www.philippekarl.com/24.html

It is about hands height, but it also explain a bit about head carriage. Plus there are nice pics of correctly collected horses ;)
My trainer has worked with PK, so my riding is strongly influenced by him. Very controversial ... :p

[RachelEvent]

Chilli the reason i said "could almost be behind the contact" is for a couple of reasons;

In snapshot you have posted, the poll isn't quite the highest point, the 3rd vertebrae is somewhat higher

Also because the contact is slack, the horse appears to be curling away from taking the contact rather than seeking a soft forward contact.

It is, of course, a snapshot and it could be misrepresenting the general situation.

I think the crux of the thing here is that I want my horse to take the contact forwards at all times - that's a soft, gentle contact, but a consistent contact nonetheless. I want to be able to decide what frame he is travelling in at any given time, so if my rein length is longer, his frame will be longer. My concern with working in an outline without contact is that the rider no longer has any say in the precise qualities of that outline (eg. how would one go about suggesting a longer frame when there is no contact?? - i'm genuinely interested in what techniques would be used)

[Chilli]

My concern with working in an outline without contact is that the rider no longer has any say in the precise qualities of that outline (eg. how would one go about suggesting a longer frame when there is no contact?? - i'm genuinely interested in what techniques would be used)

You can’t really, well I can’t anyway but what I do is use the contact/ reins to communicate to the horse where I want him to hold his head/neck.

To lengthen or shorted the stride I use the seat, my hands I try to only use to place the head/neck, now it doesn’t always work and some days you need more help from the reins to shorten and legs to lengthen.

And it has taken a long time to build up the muscles throughout the horse to be able to carry himself how I think he should be going (Which may be wrong) with or without contact and the line of communication also took a while to work out.

I know one of the main Dressage training methods involves always riding the horse forward into the hand and using the contact to contain the energy and direct it as you wish but I always though that lead to the horse being flat if it never had a contact to work with and for some reason it didn’t appeal to me, but then I don’t compete or have much knowledge of high level Dressage other than liking the beauty of it when it’s done well.

The thing about the pictures is I look at the shape of the neck and the muscles to decide if its’ right or not and that seems to be wrong I should be looking at the poll and vertebrae heights, which is why I think the second horse’s neck looks awful yet I think it’s representing Germany.

BTW, what a horrid pic is the second one, the horse face is at the vertical, and his poll is at his highest, but look at the curb bit angle ... if is it not "being pulled into frame", not much self-carrying there I guess it is an extended trot pic, I would be interested to see where the hindlegs are ...

I always though “On the bit” was just about the head and neck and outline was for the whole horse? Which is why I cut off the front ends.

I have pictures at home i'll post them for you to look at when i get home.

[suneanarab]

mayo, when riding the feel you have with the horse should always be soft, rather then heavey. alot of bhs instuctors (especially at the lower end of training) insist on riders having a short rein and i find that this can give a very heavey feel of the horse in the hand. it's the same as having a light but deep seat. the deep seat, imo, only relates to how open the pelvis is and how the weight is put through the body.

rachel and lili, the horse has his own way of going be it due to conformation, or the human equivelent of slouching. however, with the vast aray of horses i have been fortunate to work with you will see them collect themselves, round up and be what would be termed as on the bit and so forth, when they see something they are not sure of. i too have seen horses fall through messing and not being carefull of themselves. but that is like saying that if a human runs correctly he will never fall down, or that a slouchy runner is going to fall down. it's just not true. and lili i did say falling flat on their face when the rien was given, not when the horse is 'au natural'.

as for feeling the jaw tense. for example. my chestnut stallion is very agressive towards traffic if withing a 2 mile radius of our village. according to him you have no right to be on his roads, the bigger it is the worse he is about it. because he is so light to ride, and because i ride with a longer rein than most people even for schooling, it is easy to feel him tense the jaw. i can even feel him push his tongue against the roof of the mouth. i'm afraid it is about individual feel, but it's the same as us. tension in the hand causes tension everywhere else even if you think everywhere else is soft. i've worked with about 500 horses and it come down to experience.

by a short rein i mean what would be classed as normal by bhs standards. to me this is far too short and doesn't give the consistent contact that people think they have. quite often it gives exactly the oposite. to me a consistent contact means that the horse is soft and relaxed and listening all the time. however, with the shorter rein the horse is often concentrating on that and not much else. they get fidgety in the mouth and head due to the tongue being pinned with the bit and then not being able to swallow properly. i'm sure some of you will come back and say this isn't so. but then why is it the so many horses end up with their mouths strapped shut and the signs ignored?

when it comes to asking the horse to lengthen the frame without a 'contact'. have you never tried using your seat to ask for it? if you were to ride a horse on the lunge say, with no stirrups, no reins and your eyes shut, how are you going to influence the horse then? it can be done coz i do it. if you use your seat and legs correctly you should be able to get the horse in any frame, be it lengthened or collected.

[Chilli]

when it comes to asking the horse to lengthen the frame without a 'contact'. have you never tried using your seat to ask for it? if you were to ride a horse on the lunge say, with no stirrups, no reins and your eyes shut, how are you going to influence the horse then? it can be done coz i do it. if you use your seat and legs correctly you should be able to get the horse in any frame, be it lengthened or collected.

So how do you manage to place the head/neck, length and shorten the stride and create/maintain impulsion just using the seat, without any conatct at all (No matter how light)?

[suneanarab]

again this is down to feel and timing. each horse is different and will give you a different feel, you have to know the horse. what works on one doesn't always work on another. by feeling what the back legs are doing in relatsion to how the horse is working the top line you can influence how much the horse stpes under himself. i like to think of the horse as flowing water and me as the dam. by lightening the seat you allow the horse to flow freely forwards, while the leg encourages the horse forwards from behind. if you lift the rib cage and incline the weight if the seat slightly back the horse will lift in front of you. if you open the knee slightly and lighten the seat the horse will move the tempo up. but if you breath out and put a little more weight in the seat while inclining it back the horse will slow the tempo and collect. the horse naturally puts his head where it needs to be for the work he is doing. if he has got into the habit of doing it otherwise then you need to work on this from the ground before trying to change it from the top.

i'm not saying that you should never have a contact, what i am saying is that things are being written that do not apply to the horse and rider at all times. you can't say that they horse needs to be ridden a certain way for a certain reaction when that is not true. just because you have no experience of it doesn't mean it can't happen. the tread was about getting the horse 'on the bit' without resorting to constricting contacts and in a more natural way. well the horse can be in the position of on the bit with a bit in his mouth and still not be on the bit in terms of the rider.

i have to stop now but will be back tomorrow.

[Chilli]

It’s a given that horses are all different and that timing and feel are an important part of riding/training.

Would it be fair to say rather than the traditional way of riding the horse between the leg and hand what you are doing is riding the horse between the leg and seat ? leaving the head carriage to the horse so he can use it for balance dependant on what the horse is doing etc and that if you want to position or change the position of the head/neck you communicate this to the horse separately on the ground before getting on the horse ?

Just trying to get it straight in my head.

Do you have any picture of a horse working using this method ?

[Lili & Morgan]

Chili! you make me :)
So many questions :D You are right to ask!

There are TWO mains schools :
1/ The French/Portuguese school, in a very simplify manners, they want balance before ,movement
2/ The German school, they want movement, before balance

The horse just like us as "posture muscles" and "movement muscles". Okay.

So the French school, will work on developping these posture muscles first, by using flexions etc ... First in the halt will the horse have to be BALANCED.

In the German school, Will developp the movement muscles before the balance one, so they offer a support ... contact/short rein etc ... It is what you describe as :
traditional way of riding the horse between the leg and hand .

TBH, if you are interested you ought to start studying the Old Masters :D

Good intro to the French school would be the books by Jean-Claude Racinet. The german school would be Walter Zettl.

If you are hungry of knowledges you can carrying on with :
-General decarpentry : Academic Equitation,
-James Fillis : Breaking and riding with military commentaries,
etc...

These books are surprisingly easy to read.
Then you could hang at board like Ultimate dressage Bulletin Board.

Then you could find one master of French school and one of German school. Then you could make up your mind which one you like best :p , most trainers do a mix, it depends of the horse :rolleyes:

Have fun in your quest :cool:

[suneanarab]

hi chilli, sorry not been online since my last post.

yep you are right about riding from leg and seat instead of leg to hand. i suppose it's a bit like the argument of whether it's right to use a dually halter when you can do just the same work without it. the horse naturally carries himself for any given movement. it is only our pre concieved ideas that mean that we are told the head should be in a certain position for it to be right. when it comes to carriage and balance the horse has to sort that out himself when we are not on him. it is our responsibility to interfer as little as possible with what he would normally do.

now as in the case of rachel's horse above, poor, weak conformation, or muscle can make it difficult for the horse. but the horse does everything in his own way till we want him to do otherwise. there is still no reason for a contact on a bit making any difference to how you get the horse to lift in front and carry his weight behind if he listens to your seat and legs. but it is down to training and habit of both horse and rider!

i don't long line my horses, i don't use side reins and when lunging it's often done in a head collar. people will gasp in shock i am sure, but i see no point when i can teach the horse what i want without it all. i think that one thing that is hugely under rated or totally ignored is the power of your mind. an owner of a small hunter that i produced a couple of years ago would not believe that i got her horse to trot rounded and bouncing just from thinking of it. it took alot to convince her to try it, but the look of joy when she did it said it all. there is an awfull lot to be said about working from the floor. when people have problems they always want to be riding to get it solved. so yes i will work on everything from the floor first.

[Chilli]

TBH, if you are interested you ought to start studying the Old Masters :D

Good intro to the French school would be the books by Jean-Claude Racinet. The german school would be Walter Zettl.



I plan to read “School of Horsemanship” by François Robichon de la Guérinière but I’ve had “Understanding the Ancient Secrets of the Horse's Mind” by Dr Robert M. Miller for 3 years and still not read it so School of Horsemanship may be a while off yet.

It would be interesting to find out why Baucher ignores shoulder in when others consider it the answer to almost everything.

Interesting how you describe the two schools I’ve heard them described as

In the Germanic or Austro-Hungarian method the emphasis is on the seat and perpetual elegance while in the French/Portuguese method the emphasis is first and foremost riding the horse and only secondarily, the seat of the rider.

If you looking for trainers I think you’ll find it hard to beat Catherine & Michel Henriquet.

Michel Henriquet was a Pupil continuously for 30 years of the master Nuno Oliveira.

Nuno Oliveira wrote about Michel Henriquet: "his work rests completely on the looseness and the absence of force so much its part as of that of horses. I wish that he preserves and communicates this ideal of perfection."

Catherine Henriquet has competed at the Olympics with a Lusitano!!!! (Unusaul in the modern era of Dressage where Warmbloods are the norm)

But to be honest I have no interest in competing or in being a professional, I’m happy just watching and learning from horses.

Remembered these Pics of Pat Parelli taking a lesson from Michel Henriquet, As I’ve said I don’t know what things should be like only what looks right to me and I think it looks ugly :eek:

http://buisson.sf.free.fr/Henriquet/media/images/pat-parelli.jpg http://buisson.sf.free.fr/Henriquet/media/images/pat-michel.jpg

[Lili & Morgan]

It would be interesting to find out why Baucher ignores shoulder in when others consider it the answer to almost everything.


Where did you found that ? :eek:
Philippe Karl and I guess Baucher ignore LEG YIELDING. But not shoulder-in!!!

I read Baucher second manner's book, then Decarpentry on Baucher and JC RAcinet on Baucher. I do not recall them saying that Baucher ignored shoulder-in.

Baucher invented lots of "New airs" such one tempo flying change, spanish walk and trot etc ...

As the photos with PP and Michel Henriquet ??? :confused: What do they show? he does not even have a saddle.
As much I respect and admire PP, I do not agree at all with PNH riding.

Rememeber it is only a photos.
What I have seen with my eyes is my trainer riding any type of horses, and within 10-15 minutes, the horse would be touching the ground in trot, without using draw reins, gogue or side-reins etc...
But he is talented guy ... sad he is S-J, he finds Dressage too ... sad :rolleyes:

For reading I will strongly advises to start with the contemporary author, who explain Old Masters. I do not know if I could trust the translation Old French of "de La Gueriniere" into English JMO

[Chilli]

Where did you found that ? :eek:
Philippe Karl and I guess Baucher ignore LEG YIELDING. But not shoulder-in!!!

I read Baucher second manner's book, then Decarpentry on Baucher and JC RAcinet on Baucher. I do not recall them saying that Baucher ignored shoulder-in.

It’s attributed to Michel Henriquet

“Michel Henriquet was also a student of René Bacharach who was a student of François Baucher”

So I hope he knows what he’s talking about :confused:

“The failure to practice shoulder-in was the major short-coming of Baucher and the reason he and his students (i.e. Bacharach) are not fully successful today.”

Interesting Discussion between Michel Henriquet and Jean-Claude Racinet about Baucher here, but it still talks about Baucher not using shoulder in.

http://horsesforlife.com/HorsesForLifeMagazine/Jan2006/HenriquetDebateOnNunoAndBaucher

http://horsesforlife.com/HorsesForLIFE/Magazine/February2006/NunoOliveiraandBaucherbyJeanClaudeRacinet

As the photos with PP and Michel Henriquet ??? :confused: What do they show? he does not even have a saddle.
As much I respect and admire PP, I do not agree at all with PNH riding.

Just thought seeing it's a NH forum it would be nice to see :o

Has nothing to do with the tack or what the rider looks like IMO if you just look at the horse he isn't carrying himself well at all and i would guess its probably a Horse working at a very high level and a breed which natrurally goes well (So i would guess someone is getting in the horses way :rolleyes: )

For reading I will strongly advises to start with the contemporary author, who explain Old Masters. I do not know if I could trust the translation Old French of "de La Gueriniere" into English JMO

I'd rather get it from the horses mouth so to speak, as well as being an important historical document you can loose a lot in transations no matter who does them.

[Lili & Morgan]

Chili - Thanks very much for the two articles. I subsribed of Horses For Life but only since january 2007. thanks again to send me to this interesting issue.

I'd rather get it from the horses mouth so to speak, Yes we are STUDENT of the horse.

But I also find frustrating these people who have to start from ZERO, with horses, then bragg about how good they are. When In fact, somebody wrote extensively 500 yrs ago.

Anyway, I enjoy reading the Old Master, just point of view historical, the way they understood and treated horses. I found very interesting they had teh same problem that NOWADAY, i.e horses that would not stand still for mounting, that would not stop, that would not go etc...
Pointing out that rider/horse relationship has not evolved much since 3000 yrs :confused:

Mr Henriquet is rather hypocritical speaking about violence used by Baucher. What about now? There too nothing as much changed at low to high-Pro level so ....

[Chilli]

Yes we are STUDENT of the horse.




Not sure if i've confused you or you have confused me :confused:

What i ment is i'd rather read a translation from the original author than someone else's interpritation of the original book.

That bit about cutting the tounge off is TERRIBLE!!!!!! makes me sad :(

[Lili & Morgan]

Chili : sorry I misunderstood you.
Yes you are right, but you may find the original a bit "hermetic". Jean-Claude Racinet & Philippe Karl are from Saumur. So they do carry on a tradition from de La Gueriniere via Baucher, L'hotte, Decarpentry etc ... For example, Decarpentry was the grand-son of a student of Baucher. So they also passon a practical knowledge.

I do not know much Mr Henriquet's work, I know his latest work was critisized by PK. :confused:

About the tongue cutting - I do not know if it were posiible at their time, because the lack of hygien ???

But you know nowadays, I am convinced we are doing worse! We have ELECTRICITY and many drugs.
It is better not to know what happens in some yard ...