For all you NH people out there, direct and indirect............. reins

[mayoguinness]

I never thought direct and indirect reins would be so difficult untill I had my lesson on it with Jayne the other day:rolleyes: Its gunna be a slow process getting Mayo to respond to it, any tips welcome:)

[inhs]

The difference between in the indirect, direct and support reins used to confuse the hell out of me!!! Particularly as one of them doesn't even have anything to do with a rein!

From what I've gathered from doing ANH (same place Jayne would be coming from) I think (!)..........

1. Direct rein - if you want to turn right, hold right hand with rein out in that direction.

2. Indirect rein - if you want to turn right, put your right leg back and do a hindquarter yield, so you end up with your horses head facing right.

3. Support rein - if you want to turn right, push your left hand towards your horses ears.

1 and 3 are fairly easy to do.

2 is basically just a hindquarter yield. The better you are at it on the ground, the better you will be able to do it in the saddle.

Make any sense?! (I'm a proud holder of ANH L1, so I hope I got it right!)

[mayoguinness]

Yep just about...forgot to mention the support rein...... but with the direct rein (this is where it may vary a little) I was told to turn my hand over to make like a twisting action down the rein instead of opening my right rein!! So confusing!! You do, do them all at the same time right, I forget as soon as I get off the horse:o Did you learn from Ken Faulkner?? I looked at ANH L1, didn't look easy, well done:D

[inhs]

Thanks :) Friends of mine in NZ were doing NH and studying with Ken. I trained with Brad Weeks (I couldn't get a hold of Ken when I was in Australia, he's not the best man to answer emails), who was also one of the ANH instructors, but who's now set up by himself as QNH www.queenslandnaturalhorsemanship.com He was so good that I went back out to him last Christmas and did his QNH level 2! :)

The direct rein is something you can practise on the ground. Its only when its good there that it'll work well in the saddle. I guess whatever way to do it on the ground, is the way that will work best in the saddle.

For me, on the ground, I stand in front of my horse, and point my hand out right. So thats showing him direction. (I don't pull on that hand at all)

If there's no movement, I twirl the end of the rope (in my other hand) against his other shoudler, to push him towards the right.

After a while you won't need the rope twilring bit at all.

Then in the saddle, when I hold my arm out to the right (like I did on the ground) horse goes right. Its like opening up space / a window for them to go through.

[mayoguinness]

Yeah I see, have to give that a try, I think its just gunna be a matter of patience, do you do direct, indirect and support at the same time??

[inhs]

Yes, time & practise!

What I found, doing all the level 1 stuff, was that my mind my a bit blown away!!! I had to learn how to ride in a different way, by head was getting confused with all the terminology, and while I loved it, it was a whole lot to take in.

When you're doing L1 for the first time, it does take about twice as long, as both you AND your horse are learning.

The good news though :) Is that once you've done it with one horse, then you have a very valuable store of knowledge ready for the next horse that you do, and it makes a huge difference.

When I came back to do level 2, I though it would be mind bloggling again, with lots of new things to learn - but it wasn't! My mind was already in the right place (due to level 1), and I was familiar with the terms like direct . indirect, soft ribs, L & v flexion, that they tend to throw out. I had to work hard on a lot of new stuff, but I was kind of half way there (mentally anyway) before I started.

Definitely though - for the tasks that have groundwork prepartions parts to them, you really need the groundwork 100%, before you jump into the saddle.

Of you could do like I did in level 2, and jump on bareback from the offside and then fall on your ass to the great amusement of all!

[inhs]

All at the same time............ actually, physically yes you could, and it woul probably make things very intuitive for your horse.

But what I think it means, is what hand you hold your 1 rein in, when your 1 rein riding.

When you get to L2 and L3, sometimes you have no reins, so you just have to do with your body, whether its arms, legs, or whatever!

I think in the ANH L1 I did, when you read the tasks, there's a lot of one rein riding.

When it says support rein, it means there's no rein in the hand which is pointing out the direction, and thre is a rein in the hand which is pointing to your horses ears.

When it says direct rein, it means there is a rein in the hand which is pointing out the direction, and there is no rein in the hand which is pointing to your horses ears.

Indirect rein I used to stop, and to do this you apply inside leg behind girth to 'disengage hindquarters' (more terms!) and (I think) inside hand comes up with your one rein in it.

[mayoguinness]

Ground work is pretty good, I had a year of it with Mayo everyday before I ever even thought of riding and he's fairly good at it all though you can always improve;) Ouch bet that hurt, not done that yet and hopefully I won't for a while:D

[inhs]

BTW... that direction exercise on the ground I found really useful. I wouldn't have had light steering with direct/support reins when riding otherwise.

A good foreq yield is also necessary before sitting in the sddle too. if your horses shoulders are stiff / braced / stuck its very hard to do things properly when you're riding.

[mayoguinness]

All at the same time............ actually, physically yes you could, and it woul probably make things very intuitive for your horse.

But what I think it means, is what hand you hold your 1 rein in, when your 1 rein riding.

When you get to L2 and L3, sometimes you have no reins, so you just have to do with your body, whether its arms, legs, or whatever!

I think in the ANH L1 I did, when you read the tasks, there's a lot of one rein riding.

When it says support rein, it means there's no rein in the hand which is pointing out the direction, and thre is a rein in the hand which is pointing to your horses ears.

When it says direct rein, it means there is a rein in the hand which is pointing out the direction, and there is no rein in the hand which is pointing to your horses ears.

Indirect rein I used to stop, and to do this you apply inside leg behind girth to 'disengage hindquarters' (more terms!) and (I think) inside hand comes up with your one rein in it.

Oh I see, It confused me because at first I was using two reins, then just the one and yet we seemed to be doing the same thing, anyway thanks for clearing that one up, now I know why she kept saying did you forget you were sposed to be doing direct rein and me looking gone out as I was doing everything, I think we got out wires crossed, well I did anyway:rolleyes:
Quite funny now I think of it:D

[mayoguinness]

His fore quater yield is not to bad on the ground now:D

[inhs]

With a year of GW you should be pretty flash then!! :) Do we get to see some pictures?

I bought a little horse about 6 weeks ago, unbroken. I've done 13/15 groundwork things ith him now, and have sat up on his 3 times - we did backup, standing still, l flexion, walk in small circle, hindq yield :)

My plan is to get all of L1 except cantering done in a few weeks. Then move onto L2 groundwork, and have all L1 and 2 tasks done with him by end of this Sept.

Next summer, Brad's coming over to ireland, so hopefully I'll be able to get some L3 lessons on my little horse which will be cool.

L1 and L2 I did in Oz on Australian horses, so I really wanted a horse in Ireland who could do it too! :)

[mayoguinness]

Well, we're getting there, Mayo had a lot of problems when I got him so it took a lot to work through that before we got very far with GW but he's pretty good now. No photoes as of yet but I shall get some, he's very good at liberty. He does very good circles at liberty in the middle of a field at trot and canter:D

On more thing, would you do direct with the rein as well?? I'm getting very confused:o

[inhs]

Cool. Just double check the direction exercise on the ground too, and if thats 100% (ie you don't need to twirl the rope) then you should be great in the saddle too :)

[inhs]

Direct rein = rein in your hand which is pointing direction.

Support rein = rein in hand which is pointing towards horses ears.

Indirect rein (hindq yield) = rein usually in inside hand (but don't worry about it too much).

When you turn, one hand should always point out where you are going. The other hand should point towards your horses ears. (By doing both of these things your body is actually turned in the saddle, making it easy for your horse to figure out what u want him to do)

The direct and support business is just the complicated way to tell you what hand you hold your single rein in, once all of your arms are pointing in their correct directions.

Do you get me?????

[mayoguinness]

Will do:D Thanks for all your help:)

[inhs]

No worries. I just hope I haven't confused you more !!! :)

[mayoguinness]

lol.............well, I just tried to relate it to my lesson and now my heads spinning, anway I've got plenty of people at the yard that have been doing ANH a long long time before I ever got into horses so I shall get them to clarify it for me. Thankyou:D did you say you lived in Ireland or have I just made that one up:o

[inhs]

Yes, I'm from Tipperary :)

[india]

Yes, I'm from Tipperary :)

Wow, my horse was bred at Coolmore stud in Tipperary - do you know it? :)

.

[inhs]

Yes, down the road from me. Its one of the top stud farms (if not the top stud) farm in Ireland, and they'd be one of the heavy hitters internationally too. They've operations in Australia & Kentucky as well I think.

[mayoguinness]

Oh yes, never been there myself, a lot of my familys in Co. Mayo (hence the name of my horse) so we go there a lot and Kerry as well:) Love it over in Ireland:D

[inhs]

Great horses in Mayo alright, and they're only second to Tipperary horses when it comes to breeding & training!!! :cool: (I'm not biased, I promise!)

[mayoguinness]

lol..........um most of the horse riding I see in Ireland doesn't tend to be good though and you see some of the most scrawny horses ever over there!! Great people though, I'd go and live over there any day:D

[inhs]

Yes indeed. Probably better not to mention to them that they can't ride and they don't feed their horses.

[mayoguinness]

er yes that may be a good idea, still, they have a great sense of humour, so I take it your Irish yourself??

[inhs]

Yes, just as well :)

[Kate F.]

I think it's the terminology that's more difficult than the reins! :D

You only have 2 hands, 2 (or possibly 4 :D ) reins, and 2 sides of the horse. The rein on the same side as the bend of the horse can be called the inside, leading or direct rein. The rein on the opposite side to the bend can be called the outside, supporting or indirect rein. The name is to do with cultural differences between the UK and USA, and different areas of the USA. The horse should move into the inside/leading/direct rein and away from the outside/supporting/indirect rein. It's really as simple as that - it just gets complicated when you try to analyse what you're doing at any one time. To use different terms for the rein according to the move just confuses things. I think this quote from Ray Hunt sums it up pretty well!

"My legs are as important as my arms and hands, if not more. I have a directing rein and leg, and a supporting rein and leg. you always direct, then support. When you go to the left, you should look to the left. If you are going to the right, you should be looking to the right. We need to understand how to fix it up, so the horse can come from the other side and do what we are asking him to do. I first direct the horse, then support. - Ray Hunt

So whatever you call it - there are really only 2 actions.

The turning your hand towards the direction you want to go is a technique I've come across in centred riding. It's great - as long as you don't turn the hand too far - and for a horse that's not used to that, I would be inclined to move the hand away from the neck as well, then refine it to just a turn of the hand. It's not really about twisting the rein, it's about giving a very subtle "opening" of the rein. When it works, it's wonderful - but many horses need to get used to it, especially if they've been used to "pull left to go left" in the past. Also - as Ray points out - it needs to be supported by your whole body. You need to turn right (or left) mentally and physically, then just turn that thumb a tick to the inside, and you get a lovely smooth turn. Be careful you don't just mechanically rotate your hand over and end up turning it too far. If you go more than about 45° to the vertical, you start blocking through your hand and elbow and the whole thing becomes counter productive. This is where I think it's better to open the rein away from the neck rather than turn the hand too far. If the horse doesn't respond to a small turn of the hand - take the rein away from the neck, rather than turning the hand more.

Hope that helps! :)

[mayoguinness]

It does, thank you:D Now my friend the other day was trying to show me so she said that if I turned my hand over one way it was direct and the other way (so that the palm of my hand was facing the sky) it was indirect as it was in circle game on the ground. Indirect was sposed to give me his flex and his nose and then turn my hand over and out a little to follow through with direct and supporting as the other hand comes forwards a little and the inside leg on. Now I could of quite possibly completely misunderstood as I do tend too so am I even close or have I made up my own theory again:o
Why do I over complicate things *sigh*

[Kate F.]

:) - I think I know what you mean! Yes - if you turn your hand such that your thumb is pointing into the mane, it will have the effect of an outside/indirect/supporting rein, providing your horse is on the opposite bend. If you turn your thumb away from the mane, it will have the effect of an inside/direct/leading rein. However, this is all just another manifestation of the old chant "inside leg to outside rein" - the inside leg defines the bend, and the outside rein supports it. The crucial difference between the way most NH people come at it, and some "traditional" for lack of a better word, is that in most NH you never pull on the rein. It can open (away from the neck) or close (come into the neck) or go up or down, but it never pulls towards you. Some non-NH methods encourage riders to pull the rein back, which is habit that once developed is very hard to break! Hence the more enlightened trainers/instructors are always looking for ways to get people away from pulling and into more awareness of the power of moving the rein in other directions!

I think the easiest is if you just sit on the horse with your two hands balanced and with even contact, then just think about what you want the horse to do and do it yourself. Your body will then automatically arrange itself into the shape that communicates this to the horse - but you need a very strong mental image of what you want, and to really "feel" it. Back to Bill Dorrance's "True horsemanship through feel" - feel is the best aid you can give the horse. Forget the "this rein up a bit, that leg back a bit, turn the seat so and the hand so" stuff - for most people that just makes them tense and self-conscious. Just FEEL it. Tricks such as turning the hand are just helpers to get our bodies into the right position and make the cues for the horse clearer.

Walk along yourself with your hands in rein position and turn right then left. Be aware of what your hands do. Your hand will automatically turn into the direction you want to go. Twisting the hand over just exaggerates it a little. That's all that's happening on the horse! :D

[mayoguinness]

Thanks Kate, I think I understand a little better now, feeling the horse is defanatly what I need to keep in mind, in my lesson when we were doing the rein positions I was then asked to use just one of the reins but keep the other hand the same as if I was holding the rein and do the same thing but say if Mayo didn't respond when I asked him to turn with the side without a rein what would you suggest I do? Stop and wait for a flex and keep on with my support rein? Oh yes, I agree, since I've had Mayo, even on the ground I have never pulled him, I think I would of got shot down if I did;):D

[katefarmer]

If I understand you correctly, you are asking Mayo to move away from the outside rein? Let's say you are planning to turn to the right. You are setting up the bend to the right, then dropping the right rein, putting the left rein onto to the neck, and he should step to the right?

If that's the case, and he's not moving off to the right, I'd pick up the right rein to help him find it. As soon as he takes a step, release both reins and pet him. Most horses get the idea after a few goes, and then they step away from the outside rein straight away.

The key is work out what will make what you want really obvious to the horse - so if they don't understand the first signal, the next one makes it clearer. That's not to say the next one must be heavier or more energetic, though sometimes it will be, the thing is for it to make what you want clearer.

[mayoguinness]

Thank you. I think your right, I need to practise with to reins a little more:)