Help needed with bitting [Archive] - New Rider Message Board

View Full Version : Help needed with bitting

DEBZ

26th Apr 2007, 07:04 AM

Daffy Dilly

26th Apr 2007, 07:54 AM

You could try a hanging cheek?

Obviously it doesn't have the curb action, but it uses poll pressure (and my personal experience is that they have a similar end result) and is dressage legal.

DEBZ

26th Apr 2007, 08:46 AM

Jaimee

26th Apr 2007, 09:09 AM

Well first of all you wont get one with the same action for dressage. The curb action is why it is not dressage legal.

I suggest you change to a snaffle and then do some good ol' hard work in it. There is no bit which will be a miracle cure, and guess what it is not your horse who leans as such, it is you.

Sorry to be blunt but the horse can only lean if you lean back. You have to take a few steps back and rebuild his confidence and lightness. Then you can go on in a snaffle and compete.

I would scrap ideas of competing until you fix the contact issues. Start at walk and really just take a contact that is the weight of the reins. Really follow the nod of your horses head. (DO NOT WORRY ABOUT OUTLINE). Once you progress to trot make sure you keep that contact light and consistent, your elbows must be bendy and be ready to follow at any moment. Work like this for some time, you need to focus on getting an even rhythm. Practise transitions on this light contact, practise keeping that contact. Only move on to canter once you feel you have total control of your horse with the light contact. Do not be tempted to pull at any stage it will undo all of your hard work. This process could take as little as a couple of weeks, but is more likely to take a couple of months. I dont know your horse and your situation, and it is very dependant on how well you ride.

I have worked with many horses that have had their mouths abused, ex gallopers and at the moment I am helping a student of mine with hers. It is a slow process but it's not that hard to fix. A horse leans because someone has taken too strong a hold of him somewhere along the way. It is your responsibilty to regain his trust in the bit and allow him to fully enjoy your rides together. Goodluck:)

helenc

26th Apr 2007, 09:30 AM

Echo Jaimee

The reason your horse leans is that he is not carrying himself properly. I would imagine that he is holding his head well in the pelham but he is not actually working through from behind & into an outline, (if he was, he would do it in a snaffle too) but is actually sitting behind the contact.

If it was me then I'd go right back to basics, get myself a decent dressage minded instructor that doesn't go for quick fixes & it shouldn't take you too long until you are in control & out competing

eml

26th Apr 2007, 09:57 AM

What do you mean he is 'strong' in a snaffle. People sometimes use this to mean difficulty stopping, leaning horse or horse just heavier in the hand than they would ideally like.

Hard to say without seeing you and your horse but generally if the problem is one of leaning I would go back to basics on the lunge possibly with something like a pessoa to build up forward movement and back muscles, not just neck muscle. We have had a lot of success restarting horses like this riding in Market Harboroughs (German Martingales) which makes them lean on themselves and enables you to keep a good postion and push them forward to break the lean cycle.

If on the other hand the pelham is being used because the horse is strong in the sense of 'making off with you' we tend to start off generally in a curb bit so the horse does not get too onward bound and therfore establishes manners and occasionally putting in a snaffle with identical mouth to school.
Daughter very successfully competed a dressage pony on this basis, mullen mouth globe pelham at home, mullen mouth hanging cheek snaffle for competition. My theory was the pony would not realise the riders lack of brakes over the short time of warmup and test and it certainly worked for us.

puzzles

26th Apr 2007, 10:47 AM

i agree, with eml espec.

does he go well in a double bridle? i also wouldn't rule out Mylers as they're an incredibly versatile bit range and there's bound to be at least one that suits your horse.
without the pelham, does he get strong?lean on the bit?pull?

if he tends to get strong and deep, try a gag (legal?) as they help to raise the head.

have his teeth checked and try different cheekk pieces as well as mouth pieces to find what he finds comfyand goeswell in.

you may find that, in a softer bit (copper/vulcanite/rubber, etc) he is much more comfortable and goes without resistance.

good luck and be open minded.
xx

DEBZ

26th Apr 2007, 11:32 AM

Thanks for the replies but not really the response I was expecting. I know we are not ready to compete seriously yet but I have owned my boy for over a year. During that time we have gone right back to basics and I am certainly not looking for a quick fix ! I have been working so hard with him but he is an ex Irsh hunter who has a pretty dead mouth due to the harsh way he was ridden in the past.

I prefer to use the more severe bit with a light hand than a light bit with a heavy hand.
Since I have ridden him in the pelham he holds himself in a nice outline with a very light contact and he is using his back very nicely.

I don't think going back into a basic snaffle is the solution as that is what I have been trying all this time but I am willing to keep trying.

Regarding a double bridle - can you ride in one at Novice level ?

His teeth were only checked a month ago and they are fine. He goes well in full cheek bits but the type of metal makes no difference to him unfortunately.

However, I will take on board some of the constructive advice (especially eml) and discuss the situation at length with my new dressage instructor.

Thanks everyone.

helenc

26th Apr 2007, 01:20 PM

Regarding a double bridle - can you ride in one at Novice level ?

Snaffles or variations of snaffles are pretty much all you can use.

Some Mylers are permitted but only the snaffle types

Gags of any kind are not permitted

eml

26th Apr 2007, 01:32 PM

You can use a double from Elementary.

The horse we have had most sucess with the MH with is an Irish Draught ex showjumper mare who was a great leaner and so strong she pulled all but the best riders out of position. Now goes very sweetly in loose ring snaffle and only use the MH when she is being ridden by novices.

DEBZ

26th Apr 2007, 02:31 PM

puzzles

26th Apr 2007, 02:56 PM

Thanks eml, you have really given me something to think about. There is nothing I would like more than to be able go back to a snaffle. I will talk to my new RI about the issue and also your suggestion of the market harborough.

My boy has fabulous paces and a great presence and I am always being told how much the judges will like him. My new RI has great hopes for us. Lets hope I can sort out the bit issue and then there will only be my competition nerves to contend with !

That's a good idea; you can talk to a qualified saddler and your instructor to see what they think.
And, once going more nicely again, it's likely that you can gradually lessen the severity of the bits you use until he is going beautifully in a snaffle again, in time.

good luck and well done for working so hard with him, may you have every success in the dressage arena.

:-)

Jaimee

27th Apr 2007, 03:48 AM

Please for your horse dont use a market harborough. This is just another tie down and fixes the head of the horse. It is the same as draw reins. I can with complete certainty say you are not getting your horse working correctly in the pelham. If you have never felt correct you cant tell the difference, their back and mouth goes soft but it is not true.

I do agree with getting a good instructor, that doesnt want quick fixes. It sounds like you have a lovely horse please dont use a quick fix gadget on him....please have a wee read here:
Thiedemann Reins... http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php

You know people say draw reins are only to be used by experts, but experts wont NEED draw reins.

eml

27th Apr 2007, 09:28 AM

Jaimee if you reread the posts you will see that I advised the MH for a particular problem and no... correctly adjusted they bear no resemblence to draw reins.

Have you actually ridden with an MH and with draw reins? I am happy to discuss the effects you found in common.

Jaimee

27th Apr 2007, 11:53 PM

Hi EML,

I have ridden with both and will never do so again. I only ride any horse with the weight of the reins as a comfortable contact. I have not had trouble getting any horse to come onto the bit. All that is required is leg and feel of the hand and a coordination between the two. I just dont see the need for gadgets.

I dont particularly want to go OT, but if you feel inclined please tell me of the differences you see in the action of a MH and draw reins.

Horsewoman

29th Apr 2007, 09:35 PM

Thanks for the suggestion but I have tried that one and its a no go. Perhaps it would be better if I list the unsuitable bits we have tried -

full cheek single joint snaffle, d-ring single joint roller snaffle, french link loose ring snaffle, Myler Comfort snaffle level 2 and the single jointed hanging cheek snaffle

He leans on them all and will not go on the bit.

Anyone want to buy a bit ?!!:p All are 5 1/2

I have a horse who spent some time on loan to a riding school where they complained bitterly than he was "too strong" (of course he's strong, he weighs half a ton - silly expression) and leant on the bit to evade so was unsuitable. Sharp words where had. The problem was that the pupils (vocational students) hung on to his head like grim death so of course he leaned - he was trying to make himself more comfortable. On a light contact he is perfectly behaved and on the bit.

You need a contact but the contact that you need doesn't have to yank the poor animal's mouth into the middle of next week! We were taught to "feel the mouth" and treat the reins as if they were made of fine silk ribbon and would break easily. Remember that it is your legs that keep him on the bit not your hands - you push him into it rather than pulling him back into it. His whole body is involved not just his head.

Em 1

29th Apr 2007, 10:45 PM

I currently ride my horse in a ported pelham and he goes very well in it - nice and soft with a great outline. I put him into this bit firstly because he is too strong in a snaffle (ex hunter) and to help him develop the right neck muscles.

However, I cannot compete in the pelham and was wondering if any of you can suggest a suitable alternative, with the same action, but which is legal for dressage.

Any ideas welcome but Mylers don't suit him !

Thanks:)

I can sympathise 100%. I have a 17.2hh ISHxAA and have gone through the same sort of struggle that you describe.

When I first got him he was ridden in a 5 1/2" Hanoverian Pelham e.g. http://store.securehosting.com/stores/sh205878/shophome.php?itemprcd=EQBp6 . The first thing I did was to throw that away! He has a low palate and although he had his head pulled in, he was not in a correct outline and was clearly uncomfortable, if not in pain! He was 'lighter' in a double bridle but was still not working properly. He also had a 5 1/2" jointed snaffle but he was really, really unhappy in it - throwing his head, setting his jaw etc.

I put him into a slightly ported 6" pelham instead. He still held his head in 'an outline' initially but we then worked on stretching and working long and low both under saddle, on the lunge and freeschooling. It took several weeks but eventually he started to stretch forwards with his nose and relax when asked to accept a slight contact. We did lots of work on a light contact flexing to the inside then to the outside, lots of transitions by the seat not the reins, bending, stretching, working forwards into the contact in the Pelham.

The reason your horse leans is that he is not carrying himself properly. I would imagine that he is holding his head well in the pelham but he is not actually working through from behind & into an outline, (if he was, he would do it in a snaffle too) but is actually sitting behind the contact.

I'm afraid I disagree with this - yes, maybe the horse leans because it is not carrying itself. However, this is not necessarily due to the use of the pelham - for example, I hate wearing high heels. This is because I have a weak ankle so am more likely to injure myself in high heels. I don't have a problem with high heels on other people but I'm not comfortable with them myself. Surely a horse that is happy in a well fitting pelham is better than a horse that puts up with or is uncomfortable in a snaffle?

It took about 7 months before I even tried a snaffle - he hated it and started to tank around with his nose in the air. I went back to the Pelham and the problem disappeared. Then I tried a Myler ported snaffle with copper roller - he hated that even more. Again I went back to the Pelham and continued with the schooling. After another 3 months I was able to ride him in a straight bar 6" stainless steel snaffle.

I prefer to use the more severe bit with a light hand than a light bit with a heavy hand.

Absolutely! I would always ride him in the Pelham if I wasn't working towards a competition as if he does get strong, I only have to twitch the reins to make him listen, whereas in the snaffle it often requires a good jab to get him to listen!

(Btw: I've only competed once in the 20 months I've had him because I'm not prepared to put an inappropriate bit in to fulfil my desire to compete!).

Fingers crossed that you will find the solution to your/ 'our;)' problems. In the meantime, if you want to chat about strong, pelham-loving horses, please PM me:)

Good luck:)

puzzles

30th Apr 2007, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by helenc
The reason your horse leans is that he is not carrying himself properly. I would imagine that he is holding his head well in the pelham but he is not actually working through from behind & into an outline, (if he was, he would do it in a snaffle too) but is actually sitting behind the contact.

I'm afraid I disagree with this - yes, maybe the horse leans because it is not carrying itself. However, this is not necessarily due to the use of the pelham - for example, I hate wearing high heels. This is because I have a weak ankle so am more likely to injure myself in high heels. I don't have a problem with high heels on other people but I'm not comfortable with them myself. Surely a horse that is happy in a well fitting pelham is better than a horse that puts up with or is uncomfortable in a snaffle?

I appreciate your point Em, but - and i may be wrong (so please correct me if i am) - but i didn't get the impression that helen was against the pelham bit specifically, but that the horse may go better in another bit as he doesn't seem to go happilt ina pelham either. she has a very valid point that he may hold his head well but this certainly does not guarentee engagement and working from behind.
there is more choice in the bitting world than between a pelham and a snaffle: just because he may have gone badly ina snaffle does not mean, necessarily, that a pelham would suit. it's in your horse's best interests for you to really shop around for the best bit he will go in, be it gag or hackamore; snaffle or pelham. even if he hasn't gone well in 1 or 2 types of snaffle does not mean the rest of them are just as useless to you, hence why we have them in the first place.
gags can be useful as they tend to encourage the horse to raise his head whereas the action of pelhams in general encourage horses to become deep and many try to evade the contact, though i wouldn't a gag because i think some quality schooling would be far more beneficial in the long run: a bit is a quick fix, but why not cure the problem rather than just treating the symptoms, and get this problem sorted before it gets any worse and the possibility of a horse who goes badly in many bits.
trial and error.

x

helenc

30th Apr 2007, 08:17 PM

Em 1

30th Apr 2007, 09:58 PM

No, I'm not against the pelham :) & I didn't mean that it was down to the pelham that the horse isn't carrying himself properly.

This thread specifically asked for help with choosing a bit for dressage - since a pelham is not allowed then surely it would be better to school & get the desired effect ie getting the horse off his forehand & creating a better outline in a snaffle that can be used in dressage

Sorry helenc, looking back, I think I mis-interpreted your original post. I certainly didn't mean to make it sound like an attack on you and your advice/experiences!:o I think we're saying the same thing - the pelham has it's place in schooling, hacking and some non-affiliated competitions but to go affiliated the only way to get a horse to accept a snaffle for competition is through re-education and schooling:)