Getting supplements into a good doer?

[capalldubh]

Jackson has started to fill out. This is a good thing, as he was quite lean over the winter. However in the last couple of weeks, his condition score has definitely increased. Although ribs are still visible (just) under what's left of his winter coat, his rump is well covered and hips and spine are not prominent. He has also increased in girth and is looking much more like a mature horse (he is just 5) - to the extent I am worried that the saddle arriving today or tomorrow may not fit now :eek:

He has been getting fairly token feeds: half his supplements go into 400g (before soaking) of Quikbeet in the morning, and the other half go into a large scoop of Fibergy and water in the evening.

Should I scale down or discontinue these feeds? And if so, how do I get two large scoops of TopSpec Comprehensive and his MagOx into him?

Suggestions on a postcard please... (Oh, OK, suggestions here would be good ;) ).

I will bring camera with me tomorrow and try for before and after shots if that helps.

[martini55]

Feeding isn't my strongest point so can't help too much! But I would say stop feeding the quikbeet, or at least cut it down. I know the with martini half a coffee mug of speedibeet (before soaking) was enough to get her puting on weight. I don't know much about fibergy but read online that is has mollasses in it, so maybe switch to something that is unmollassed. Sorry I'm not much help!

[Denbenj]

this was discussed recently on a thread..

I would personally just use Hi-fi Lite to mix your supps in with. I dont think you could go wrong with it!

[capalldubh]

Thanks - I am thinking that about the Quikbeet too :)

I am kind of stuck with the Fibergy, as all horses in field have to get the same thing in the evening to avoid "I want what she's getting" scenarios :D It doesn't seem to be too high calorie - definitely compared to the Kwikbeet (goodness how can it have all those calories? It tastes of wet cardboard. And yes, I have ;) ).

Kwikbeet: MJ/kg 13.2, protein 10%, oil 0.5%, fibre 16.5%
Fibergy: MJ/kg 9.5, protein 12%, oil 7.4%, fibre 36%

Alfa-A lite is 8.5MJ/kg, Hi-Fi lite is 8 MJ/kg - I guess I might try to lobby for a change to Hi-Fi Lite.

It just means he will get all his supplements in a small evening feed of chaff - and I suspect he may just say no thanks and go off and eat someone else's uncontaminated dinner :rolleyes:

[martini55]

How about Safe & Sound:

Est. Digestible Energy MJ/Kg 8.0
Protein % 8.5
Oil % 3.8
Fibre % 22.0

(http://www.dodsonandhorrell.com/uk/dh/horse/leisure/safe-sound)

[capalldubh]

How about Safe & Sound

That does sound good! Lower calorie than the Fibergy and no alfalfa (I would quite like to cut out the alfalfa - we may still be getting occasional hoof rings so something is not right :( ). It does have molasses, though... and it has a lot of things in it that he is getting in the TopSpec, so would that be doubling up?

Why does it all have to be so complicated?

[martini55]

Ah I never noticed the mollasses. I wish they would give you amounts :rolleyes:. Even Hi-fi lite has 'mollasses extract' in it. I was actually thinking about changing feed and cutting out alfalfa too to see if it had any effect but I'm a bit wary of doing it seeing as I've fed hi-fi lite for about 6yrs. Change is scary :o

[Palomino Mare]

Why does it all have to be so complicated?

i would like to help but i'm lost already - not great with feeds!

Tiffany is on chaff for good-doers...its a well known brand and i cant remember the name of it....will find out today. She was a bit "portly" after xmas (i dont blame her!) but i've got to say that its helped her weight loads.

amz x

[puzzles]

Hun,
if you are feeding the recommended levels of Topspec then there is no need to add anything else other than chaff or sugarbeet, as this will unalance the diet again; hence why Safe and Sound may not be such a good idea as it is designed to be fed at about 2kg per day, for energy and a balanced diet, the first of which would only be used to gain more weiught.

i would dutch the Quickbeet as it is too high in MegaJoules -if anything use Speedibeet, which is approved by the Lmainitis Trust and fabulous stuff - and if possible switch to Hi-Fi Lite/Good Do-er as these are both quality feeds but low in energy. if not posdsible then the Fibergy will be fine: just add a very small handful to each feed, with a little water to make it easier to eat.

is 400g worth of supplements really necessary? adding too many also can imbalance the diet and cause more harm than good, especially if he is getting the same nutrient several times over.
what are they (amounts too)?

[capalldubh]

would ditch the Quickbeet as it is too high in MegaJoules -if anything use Speedibeet, which is approved by the Lmainitis Trust and fabulous stuff

:) I think it is time to scale down on the beet alright. However there's nothing to call between Kwikbeet and Speedibeet - same basic product, similar MJ, just different manufacturers - and our feed merchants locally don't stock speedibeet. BTW Kwikbeet is also approved by Laminitis Trust for what it's worth.

The 400g is the amount of Kwikbeet he's getting daily, not the supplements :D As I said above, the supplements are TopSpec Comprehensive recommended daily amount and an additional 40g of MgOx. Which is a lot of powder to hide in a scoop of chaff ;)

[puzzles]

ah, oh yeah ...

[puzzles]

:rolleyes: ;)

still, Speedibeet compares better...

Dry Matter 90.0%
Protein 10.0%
Oil 0.7%
Fibre 16.0%
Ash 9.0%
Starch -
Sugar 5.0%
Copper -
Calcium 0.7%
Phosphorus 0.1%
Available Phosphorus
(Digestible Phosphorus 0.05%) 0.05%
Salt 0.3%
Magnesium 0.3%
Lysine 0.45%
Methionine 0.15%
M&C 0.3%
Threonine 0.4%
Tryptophan 0.1%

DE Horse mj/kg 12.4

[showjumper-zoe]

Maybe cut out the kwickbeet and add a balancer dodson and horrel do one that is just vitamins etc but avoid bluechip etc as that puts weight on

[puzzles]

Maybe cut out the kwickbeet and add a balancer dodson and horrel do one that is just vitamins etc but avoid bluechip etc as that puts weight on

Ditto:) , only i would definately not advise against Blue Chip; it's that it is so nutritious that horse's previously on slightly poorer diets tend to blossom on it:eek: . it is low in calories, especially considering the miniscule amount fed each day (based on about 100g/100kg bodyweight), and is labelled suitable for laminatic, good doers and those needing condition alike.:D
there is also Blue Chip Lami-Light, even more specialised for laminatics and good doers - especially those with poor hooves - and, personally, Blue Chip is one of the first I would recommend to anyone.

:D

[Pink's lady]

I'm a big convert of Readigrass now. It smells just lovely and has nothing other than grass in it. The horses seem to really like it.

You could easily mix the supplement into it and it's still fairly high energy (if you feed a lot by weigth - by volume it's very light-weight so they think they're getting lots) and could replace any sugarbeet ect completely. It's what my lot will be getting this summer now.

You could always just buy a bag and see - it you/they don't like it it can be used to pad out dinners and lasts for ages. Plus it's great to feed to rabbits and guinea-pigs.

[showjumper-zoe]

[QUOTE=Pink's lady;1248839]I'm a big convert of Readigrass now. It smells just lovely and has nothing other than grass in it. The horses seem to really like it.

Readigrass is just dried grass, puts weight on quickly hence not suitable for laminitics.

[puzzles]

personally i wouldn't go for readigrass; fab though it may be, i think other substitutes would be more ideal for a good doer. dried grass is only a small steop down from fresh grass, and a lower calorie replacement would be preferable, i think.
x

[mogadoga]

I dont know what the top spec is. But i feed D&H safe and sound, a handfull, with his pink powder and glucosamine in.

I used to use the D&H ultimate balancer, but the protien was too high (he has problems with it) so i had to change, but that has a broad spectrum of vits and minerals etc, and i used to feed that alone. :)

[alwaysfallingof]

capalldubh, I'm having this dilemma at the moment. At the moment my lamanitic is currently just being fed Formula 4 Feet in a bucket. But...I'm going to have to find a way of getting MgOx and a probiotic into him as well, and he's really fussy.

What I'm leaning towards is *just* giving him a small handful of speedibeet with supplements - should be tasty enough to disguise the powders, wet so that the powder sticks to it and is unmolassed.
I don't think that Max'd eat supplements just put in chaff - not *nearly* tasty enough:rolleyes:

It's difficult:rolleyes:

[Lucyad]

How about getting an apple corer and putting it in an apple, and cutting his feeds down to nothing, or just a token handful of chaff if the others are getting something to keep them from fighting?

He is certainly going to be cheap to feed anyway!

[gingeremmie]

I use a fistful of safe and sound and add baileys lo cal balancer and mag ox and salt (and rosehips when I've not run out) and my cob eats that. He won't eat the balancer and mag ox etc alone, it seems the safe and sound is necessary to disguise the magox, even though it's just a handful. I'd quite happily use beet as that is meant to be one of the safest feeds for laminitics but my cob isn't overwhelmed with it, he prefers safe and sound, and I can't be bothered soaking stuff if he isn't even going to eat it :rolleyes:

Safe and sound is actually quite low in micronutrients according to Jackie Taylor, mogadoga, so I wouldn't use that as the only source of vitamins and minerals personally, and because it is low in micronutrients I don't worry about the fact he's having full rations of the balancer and may in theory be getting too much of a particular element because he only gets a fistful of the chaff and because the chaff is actually quite low in micronutrients.

I used to use hi fi lite as the chaff to mix the mag ox in but I prefer to stay away from alfalfa, and also the safe and sound seems less greasy and mollassey than hi fi lite if you know what I mean?

[capalldubh]

Interesting feedback, thank you everyone.

I have spent a while weaning him on to the TopSpec and it gets very good write ups in terms of foot improvements, so am happy to stick with it. I deliberately chose the TopSpec powder over the balancer, because he really doesn't need extra calories - yes, Lucy, he has cost two bags of Speedibeet and one bag of Fibergy to feed since Christmas :D

So the idea of the Readigrass is appealing to me. I'm not bothered that it's like grass - since he has real grass available to him 23 and a half hours of the day - and having dried grass for the other half hour is no prob ;) It would only be a tiny bit, just enough to hide the supplements and make him think he's getting a dinner...

Rosehips sound a good additive too, good for feet I hear :)

[puzzles]

yup, Rosehips are rich in Biotic and other minerals: fabulous stuff, especially wild!

good luck hun
x

[capalldubh]

Thanks :)
Will have to start a new thread on "where do I get rosehips?" :D

[puzzles]

lol, you pick them.
google - 'global herbs', 'hilton herbs' and 'wendals herbs'

[gingeremmie]

You can get them from barefoot basics or jackie taylor at metabolic horse too.

[angelfben]

I still would not feed Readigrass I'm afraid... considering it's the fructans in the grass which can bring on an attack as much as being overweight, and these will still be present in dried grass i.e. Readigrass.

Here's a pretty Blue Peter style picture:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/angelfben/wsc.jpg

There is very little difference between fresh grass and dried grass, and even more worryingly good quality hay.. which is why the first thing I would do with a laminitic is soak the hay for a good 12-24 hours to get some of the 'goodness' out of it and/or replace some of it with oat straw.

Alfafa is quite a high energy feed and so often looked on as a 'bad' feed but it's actually a good choice for laminitics as it is an energy source but low in both sugars and starch. Though it is still extra calories if you are trying to get weight off a horse so not the best choice then, it is a good source of maintenance feed for laminitics that is often overlooked.

As far as other feed choices go you've obviously had plenty of suggestions to be going on with, hope you find something suitable :)