Lunging Q's

[Rhein]

I have had my new horse 3 weeks and have been doing a bit of lunging with her. I have been taking it very slowly and have only been working on walk and trot on both reins so far.

The issue we have is with her taking off at great speed and doing an all out canter/gallop on the end of the lunge line; which is completely out of control :rolleyes:. She did this the time before last, whilst being asked to trot. She put in some head tossing and a buck, then flew off. I brought her to a stop within one circuit (I think).

Today, she decided to charge off in a very uncontrolled manner and I was unable to slow or stop her for about 7 flying circuits!!

So, my question is what do I do? I have been told that when she does this that I should push her on even more:confused: . I don't want to do that for a couple of reasons; firstly, she is not doing what she is being asked to do i.e trot. and I want her to do what she is told, not what she likes! Secondly she is very much out of control and flying wildly around and I am worried she will get hurt if I let it continue or push her on.
I should add that the lunge line was absolutely taught when she was doing this, she was really leaning with all her strength on it. When I let it out so that she couldn't do this, she sped into an all out gallop :eek: . So I did actually then shorten it up so that I could have some control and stop her :confused:

My next question is why is she doing this? I don't think she likes lunging (but I have been taking it very slowly), and I can anticipate when she is going to behave like this from her body language (although I can not anticipate exactly when she is actually going to take off!)

After I got her under control today, I did a couple of walk/trot/walk transitions on each rein, to end on a good note.

Where are we going wrong?

[suneanarab]

hi,

it's quite possible that she is just board of what you are doing. is there any reason that you are taking it so slowly, as in she is not fit enough? coz the thing is that if she is fit she is going to have alot of energy to blow off and the work is not enough. even horses that live out 24/7 can be like this. the other thing is that it is just high ginks on her part.

i try to train my horses so that they warm up first and then i tell them they can play. at this point they can buck and kick as much as they like. what you can do is use this to your advantage. give her the command of play while she is doing it. the point of pushing her on is not really about making her go faster as far as i'm concerned, but it does change the act to your command and not hers. you can then giver her the command of 'work' and bring her back to what you wanted from her. it may not solve the problem straight away, but you will have a horse that now has another voice command in her list.

it works for the horses i do, and so far i have never had one of my new starts buck with me when i ride them. they are never given the command when ridden so know that they can't.

[Rhein]

I was starting her slowly because she isn't very fit, she hasn't done much "work" or schooling before, she has an old hock injury (not causing any problems), and generally doesn't have good muscle. I have only lunged her about 5 times so far. I gave her the first week with us to settle in and just groomed, rugged, turned out and generally got to know her etc.

Maybe I'm going too slowly? I have considered that she is bored with what is being asked of her, but also that she is actually finding it difficult. She really ends up pulling on the line and using it to lean on...........................

I'm torn between it being high jinks (I'm OK with that), beligerance/bad manners (I'm not OK with that) or something else??

ETA: What is your "play" command?

[Lyndz & Siners]

i would take her into the arena and let her loose and just let her do as she pleases... don ask her to do anything in particular.. just take your lunge line and crack it.. dont hit her or anything.. thats just bad!,... just stand in the middle of the ring and crack it... shes probably start galloping and bucking and just let her do it... keep her going for a couple minutes.. then stop pushing her... dont try to get her to stop, just kinda stand there.... once she stops and settles down, go up to her and clip the lunge line on her.. then just lead her around in your lungeing circle, standing right beside her and slowly move your hand further down the rope and slowly get further away from her... eventually she will start to trot, probably really suddenly too... thats when you should take your spot in the middle of the circle.. now heres the trick.. shell probably be trotting really fast,, so dont pull on her... shes probably freaking out kinda so just talk to her.. tell her shes good and she should start to calm down and stay at a nice steady paced trot...

and when she pulls and leans on the lunge line just give it a quick jerk.. not hard but just firm enough to say "hey dont lean on it!"

and i really wouldnt worry abut her while shes playing... most horses wont push themselves farther then they can

i hope i helped but its really hard when i havent seen your horse or anything...

[Keket]

Just sounds like plain old high spirits to me! If she's other wise well behaved (meaning she isn't trying to spin around and go the other direction, or turn to face you, or kick out in your direction) then I'd say it's just extra energy. Look at her feed and turn-out schedule and make adjustments. You're still in the "getting to know you" phase and it'll take time to figure out how much feed she needs and how much exercise to keep her at her best.

Coquette gets like this sometimes, normally when she hasn't been worked in awhile and hasn't been able to blow off some steam. In that case, I just let her go to it, bucking and squealing and charging. If I ask for a trot and she squeals and bolts off, I know that she's got some extra p*ss and needs to run it off. So I don't ask anything of her until she tells me that she's ready to work.

Next time she does it, just try to hang on and let her go for a bit. After awhile, you'll probably see her start to come down to steadier canter and relax through her body. That's when she's saying, "Ah, that's better. Now, what did you want me to do, Mum?"

Good luck. :)

[alwaysfallingof]

The point of pushing her on is that if she's flying around for 7 circuits; you're not in control. If you then ask her to keep going for a circle or two when she would otherwise have stopped, then you are back in control and you say *exactly* when to make the downwards transition.

Otherwise, if you ask her to trot and she goes ping, you hang on and are just ineffectively saying "terrrot, steady, terrrot" until *she decides* that she's going to listen and slow down, you get down to trot without really having had any control at all.

If she's going to fly on the lunge when you ask her to go up to trot, there's not an awful lot you can do about it but make the best of a bad situation. If you get her consistently coming back to trot when you ask by keeping her in canter for longer than she was planning, then you will probably find that the time it takes before she mentally 'comes back' to you decreases.

And also, in a way, she is doing as you asked. You asked her to move up a gear and she responded...just a little too enthusiastically.

If she is going that fast then she will be using the lunge line to balance which is why it feels like she is pulling. As long as you can keep hold of her, I generally just lean back and keep the steady tension. There is no way that she would be able to do flat out gallop in a balanced circle by herself (especially if unfit), so if you give her more line to try and make her lighter she can just use it to go faster. If you change the tension suddenly it may cause her to trip because she's using that force to balance herself.

It's a difficult one considering what you said about her fitness and hock problem, but that's the theory on why you should push them on anyway.

Good luck.:)

[sheryl]

Hi,
Do you think the pony looks at all stressed, while she's bombing around, or does it look like she's enjoying herself, and she's just letting off steam?

I have seen novices lunge ponies like this before, because they don't know what else to do, so the pony thinks that this is what is expected of them, even if they don't like it.

Also some horses are scared of the whip. (I'm assuming you are using a whip). Where are you pointing it, to ask her to slow? Do you use your voice as an aid too?

I may be wrong, but I'd imagine that this pony has been either:

1. taught badly

2. she's scared of the whip (that may have been used harshly)

3. or as someone else said, she is being over-fed concentrates, or is not getting enough exercise. What is she eating?

If she's not over-fed, and is getting enough natural exercise, I would start back at square one with the lungeing, and start over again.

Try lungeing her without the whip aswell;)

Start by parallel lungeing (walking round with her on a short rein, and gradually work your way away from her, if she is calm. Keep each lesson short, so that you can always finish on a good note, and use loads of praise for every tiny bit of progress.
I would aim for her to only walk to begin with, and don't step up the pace until she is really calm.

Hope this helps. Let us know how you get on:)

[domane]

Are you lungeing her with one line or two? If it's one line then you pretty much have no control of her when she takes off she that puts her in charge.... if you lunge with two lines, you can have a line attached to each side of her lunge cavesson or even her bit. This will give you a lot more control of her speed AND direction. I know you are not keen to be attached to her mouth because of the side-to-side head movement she has, but this would deffo put YOU in control on the ground and as you have only had her for 3 weeks she needs to understand that you are boss and what you say goes! :p The outside line goes through the side of her roller or through your stirrup iron if she is wearing her saddle, then round her quarters... this is VERY effective at having more control... it's like riding but without sitting there! You will be able to turn her as well....

To be honest, if she is doing this on the lunge, I would be tempted to start with long-lining, walking behind her, then slightly to the inside and if she takes well to this, then I would proceed to two-rein lungeing....

Let us know how you get on :)

[NoviceNic]

Body language is important when lunging as well......If you have the whip raised that is all it may take for her to run off. Drop the whip and turn your back to her. Shoulder height make a difference as well. If you want them to pick up pace then you need your shoulder behind to raise and your front to lower. I guess it would help if you reversed this body language to slow the pace as well..

[suneanarab]

hi sorry i din't get back to you. i forget which treads i've posted on sometimes. when they take of i tell them 'play' as i would to trot or anything else and praise them. as for pushing them on and you gaining control, this doesn't always work, anyone who thinks it does should try it with my elder stallion. you'd be there forever and a day or untill he dropped dead. however, he will listen to the play command and it's the only time i lift the lilt of my voice. the rest of the time it's always slow and calm. you can encourage her to go and play and buck and so on. i don't have the luxury of an enclosed space at home to loose school, but you can let her go if you have the school to do so. just do the same as above and give her the comand when she is actually messing about. this way she associates the comand with what she is doing. when she starts to calm down to her the slow up and 'work'. you can choose your own verble command, she doesn't care what it is so long as you always use the same one.

[Konch]

Surly the field is where the pony can play, buck, fart and generally kick up heels. When you ask her to work in a school, she should respect that. I assume shes been torn around on the end of the lunge and thinks thats whats required of her. I too would try the 2 line approach, and slowly get her onto the circle.

[Rhein]

Haven't had much time to log on and reply, but thanks for all your responses. It's certainly given me something to think about. I'll try and answer your helpful questions/suggestions :)

I don't feel that it is just plain high spirits, I feel that she is throwing a strop because she doesn't want to do what I am asking of her. I could be wrong.

She doesn't turn to go in the other direction or kick out, but she does turn in to face me when "she's had enough".

She is a good do-er, lives out 24/7 in 1acre +, and just gets a handful of chaff with vitamins and minerals once daily. So it's not too much high energy feed.

Possibly it's not enough exercise. Compared to my last horse she is hardly hard worked or ever breaks a sweat. But prior to me having her she was exercised only about once a fortnight (I'm trying to improve her fitness slowly, with some exercise every evening).

Perhaps I should clarify that she doesn't do it immediately I ask for an upward transition into trot, it is usually after a few circuits. In fact, the lunging starts off quite well for the first 10-15 minutes or so and I get nice walk trot transitions on both reins.

She is not scared of the whip. When she charges off in an out of control canter/gallop, I drop the whip to the floor anyway and try to position my body in front of hers. When I start lunging her we have the most lazy slow walk you can imagine (any slower we'd be going backwards!), trot is similarly lazy and inactive. I need to use the whip and voice very firmly to get her to move!! So no, she doesn't start off in high spirits at all!!

I use my voice a lot. Almost constantly on our first few lunging sessions, less now.

The point of pushing her on is that if she's flying around for 7 circuits; you're not in control. If you then ask her to keep going for a circle or two when she would otherwise have stopped, then you are back in control and you say *exactly* when to make the downwards transition.

Otherwise, if you ask her to trot and she goes ping, you hang on and are just ineffectively saying "terrrot, steady, terrrot" until *she decides* that she's going to listen and slow down, you get down to trot without really having had any control at all.

If she's going to fly on the lunge when you ask her to go up to trot, there's not an awful lot you can do about it but make the best of a bad situation. If you get her consistently coming back to trot when you ask by keeping her in canter for longer than she was planning, then you will probably find that the time it takes before she mentally 'comes back' to you decreases.

And also, in a way, she is doing as you asked. You asked her to move up a gear and she responded...just a little too enthusiastically.

If she is going that fast then she will be using the lunge line to balance which is why it feels like she is pulling. As long as you can keep hold of her, I generally just lean back and keep the steady tension. There is no way that she would be able to do flat out gallop in a balanced circle by herself (especially if unfit), so if you give her more line to try and make her lighter she can just use it to go faster. If you change the tension suddenly it may cause her to trip because she's using that force to balance herself.

It's a difficult one considering what you said about her fitness and hock problem, but that's the theory on why you should push them on anyway.

Good luck.:)

I really identify with what you have said here alwaysfallingoff. Yes, when she is flying around for several circuits I am not in control, and your second paragraph describes precisely what ends up happening :o .

I can see why I should consider pushing her on once she has decided to stop her bad behaviour, and so getting her back into trot when I decide.
Yes, she is going way too fast and so using the lunge line to balance. I pretty much automatically did as you described and leant back on the lunge (and held on tight for dear life!). Giving her more line made her break into a gallop (which I definitely did not want).

I will also try giving the lunge line a quick jerk when she leans on it as Lyndz & Siners suggested; since she uses it to lean and balance even at trot.

Surly the field is where the pony can play, buck, fart and generally kick up heels. When you ask her to work in a school, she should respect that. I assume shes been torn around on the end of the lunge and thinks thats whats required of her. I too would try the 2 line approach, and slowly get her onto the circle.

I can't help but agree with what you say. The field is for playing, and she can have an all out blast on a hack (as and when allowed :rolleyes: ), but when I bring her in to lunge, it is work. Just the same as bringing her in to ride in the school is work:confused: .

I haven't actually lunged her since the last episode, as 1) she has been lame and I didn't want to risk further injury, and 2) I haven't plucked up the courage to try as I feel we have got to the "testing the boundaries stage" in our new relationship and I'm worried about what she will do. (Basically I've chickened out:o ) But I know I must bite the bullet and see how she behaves.

[Rhein]

Oh I missed this one, sorry Domane
Are you lungeing her with one line or two? If it's one line then you pretty much have no control of her when she takes off she that puts her in charge.... if you lunge with two lines, you can have a line attached to each side of her lunge cavesson or even her bit. This will give you a lot more control of her speed AND direction. I know you are not keen to be attached to her mouth because of the side-to-side head movement she has, but this would deffo put YOU in control on the ground and as you have only had her for 3 weeks she needs to understand that you are boss and what you say goes! :p The outside line goes through the side of her roller or through your stirrup iron if she is wearing her saddle, then round her quarters... this is VERY effective at having more control... it's like riding but without sitting there! You will be able to turn her as well....

To be honest, if she is doing this on the lunge, I would be tempted to start with long-lining, walking behind her, then slightly to the inside and if she takes well to this, then I would proceed to two-rein lungeing....

Let us know how you get on :)

I am lunging her with one line. I have no experience of lunging with two lines and it sounds a bit complicated :o . I think I would worry about her (and I) getting all tangled up if she ran off :o . I will see if I can find someone to show me how.
I am back riding her now, and she is being a little "testing" :rolleyes: .
Do you think I should give lunging a rest for a while, or should I continue to pursue it as part of her training.

[eml]

Personally if I have a horse with a history of joint problems I tend to avoid lunging unless they cannot be ridden as the constant turning puts a lot of strain on legs. Slightly OT but I also am a great believer in getting to know horses very well before fittening them as any issues are easier to sort out.

As far as rushing on the lunge, how is the horse under saddle? If he is generally sensible it is possible he has never been properly taught and it may be worth going back to basics in his lunge training.

[Rhein]

Thanks eml. I have only lunged her a few times, and tried to be gentle and short about it, for the very reason of her old injury. I guess my reason for doing it was to start to give her an all round education (training); I didn't even know if she had ever been lunged before.

I am glad to hear your opinion about fittening. We have been following a slow and gentle routine, which some people think is too slow (I was asked 2 weeks in to having her whether I had jumped or cantered her yet). I have had her 5 weeks now and we are currently exercising 6 evenings out of 7 (where possible). To start with it was all in walk, then I have added trot. Now we are doing a few strides of canter, and have been hacking out.

Under saddle she is pretty good, although just recently she is testing the boundaries; by being very strong, rushing and wanting to up the pace considerably. I have been working with an instructor recently and managed to contain all her energy nicely and get her going much better and far more balanced.

Pehaps I will stick to riding her whilst her balance and fitness improves and until I have her listening to me again. For some reason I just feel that lunging needs to be part of her schooling. Maybe it doesn't.

[suneanarab]

'Surly the field is where the pony can play, buck, fart and generally kick up heels. When you ask her to work in a school, she should respect that.'

yes this is true but it doesn't stop them wanting to do it on the lunge does it? as is evident from the post as the mare lives out 24/7. as for putting 2 lines on the mare that the owner hardly knows and has never done before, this could end up in a total mess and one or both of them getting injured.

living out in a field never stopped any of mine wanting to buck and play on the lunge. if you micro manage the horse so much that it never gets the chance to play while in your company i think that is very sad. i see no harm at all in teaching the horse that there is a time and place to play, where on the lunge or not. it's just something that works for me and every horse i have started and worked on.

all work and no play make anyone dull.

[coss]

haven't read all the replies but that is what my horse used to do.
i was only young at the time and he did get away from me in a five acre field and flew round the field with the lunge rein flying behind :eek: so for a time my dad "lunged" him, he did the pushing on when he took off and it really didn't help and made my horse more spooky.
My riding instructor came to give me a lesson and saw my dad "lunging" and offered to show him how it was done :D instead of having my horse on a big circle and having the bucking/taking off/rearing/and random changes of direction she kept the circle very small, the lunge rein must have be 6 or 7 metres only but instead of standing in the middle of the circle and pivoting she walked a circle with my horse. This meant that the size of circle he was actually doing was much bigger than it looked. she also just asked him just to trot as this is very simple, no complications from transitions. after about 10minutes he was very settled and rideable.

I now lunge him and i started off with my instructors method, keeping the lunge rein short. i also did a lot of ground work with just a leadrope, getting him to follow me, do walk, halt, walk trot transition and getting him more responsive to my body language (with lots of stopping for a pat) he has also grown up a lot mentally and is more responsive so i can work him on bigger circles.

i think the main thing was getting him used to the lunge whip and starting with a short lunge rein and gradually letting it out. If he takes off i shorten the lunge rein so he has to slow down to balance... this makes it easier for him to work calmly than have "playtime" which could be dangerous. his canter on the lunge is still iffy going back to when my dad "lunged" him. he thinks its the cue to take off but by asking him to slow down soon after he has started canter means he realises he's not going to be attacked.

my horse also used to turn in on the lunge, with a smaller circle you have more chance to position yourself so that your horse can't turn round as it is something of a habit (or it was with my horse), the smaller the circle the more control you have and you can break the habit of turning in. make sure you can tell when your horse needs a rest at walk and let her rest before she wants to turn in.

Hope that helps/makes sense.

[Marusenka]

You said that she starts off really nicely and does some good walk to trot and downwards transitions for 10-15 minutes at the start on both reins.
I would personally stop there- 10-15 minutes of lunging is pretty good for building up fitness work and it is harder on joints than ridden work! Maybe from there you can build up the amount of time to a bit longer and introduce some canter before she gets a chance to get bored and silly!

You didn't say if you lunge her off a cavesson or not- i found with my youngster i started lunging off a headcoller and he could just tank off then- with a cavesson i had way more control over his turning and even more with two reins. A lot of it is just practice makes perfect and perhaps she just does not understand yet- my youngster hadn't the faintest clue how to lunge and it took many many sessions to teach him what he had to do- now a few months later he is like a pro, i don't even need a whip just use my voice and even freeschooling he will come round in a proper circle and not attempt to change the rein by himself!

I would keep lunging her as it does build respect from the ground and teaches her to be responsive and listen to you. With my youngster i do 3 days ridden a week as he needs most practice at that! Then we do 1 day hacking/ leading in hand or something a bit different and 1 day lunging/ long reining or in hand work to keep him listening to that and then he gets 2 days off to himself!

[suneanarab]

coss, i always walk with my horses when lunging and had a huge argument with my instructor while taking my exams about it. for me i think iot is far safer to have them so they are just out of kicking distance and work from there. even if i have my lot on the full rein i still walk with them, as for when they are playing. i think that things have to be taken in context when it comes to allowing horses time to play on the lunge. i've trained hundreds of horses and never had any problems with allowing them to play. however, there is a huge difference between allowing the horse to play in a controled manner and having the horse do things off his own back.

youngsters for instance will often try to barge off as they don't understand what the limitations are with the lunge line. it's the same as anything else. each horse is individual and all horses should have the chance to play when working them from the floor. if you feel better doing this with them loose fine, but i have no choice so i would rather let them play at my say so than them try to do it off their own backs which could end up messy for all.

i tend to think that people get too fixated on the horse working. but then i'm from a nh back ground so i suppose my view is different.

[coss]

suneanarab, it think your idea of play is good, i think i slightly misinterpreted it :p i do play with harry but not in such a lunging context, he's on the end of the lunge line and we "play" in a different way before i start getting him on a circle. I agree, walking with the horse is better, i always think the horse is more willing to move forwards if you're also walking, thats how i trained harry to slow down without my voice, i slow my walking circle or stop and he'll slow or stop accordingly.

I probably end up sitting on the fence when it comes to play, i don't have a command for it and i don't like harry to be bucking on the lunge as it can turn uncontrollable to quickly but as you say (and i agree), all horses are different and you have to treat each as an individual :)

[suneanarab]

hi coss,

i have also found that by walking with the horse they do respond so much better. my show hunter mare picked things up very quickly. baring in mind that she was 7 and had done nothing, i had her cantering on my leg cues. may look a bit of a prat to other people as i stike off in canter though lol

as i show my arabians in hand i have found that i can control the tempo with how i run. so it stand to reason that it also works on the lunge. with odin being so responsive though i have to be carefull. if i suddenly stop for something he will automatically stop too. although this is just what i would expect from him i have had to appologise as he looks at me gone out. i can also slow the horses down by running my hand down the line. this is a more advanced stage of the disengaging of the quarters. you may find that your boy also responds to it if he will watch your body to slow him down.

suzanne

[coss]

thanks for the advice suneanarab, its nice to know i'm not alone with a funny walk (although he hasn't cued into that yet) i do a lot of hand signals which got very confusing when i was trying to take pictures whilst lunging, as with your horse, harry kept stopping and staring at me every time i accidentaly cued him to slow down or stop and each time i would tell him he was a good boy (after all he was behaving for a change :p) then i'd have to sort myself out and send him going again. i do spirals with him which means i shorten the lunge rein whilst he's going round and lenthen it again, i half march on the spot to encourage him to shorten his stride. today i tried the shortened steps whilst he was out on the bigger circle and he was more responsive to it as i'd already done the spiralling in and i also quietly say "iccle steps" as this shortens him too... and yes i use iccle instead of little :o i find he's more responsive to iccle :rolleyes: :p

[suneanarab]

thats funny coss, iccle lol but if it works it works! i tell my lot 'head down and stretch your legs' to get them to stretch the frame forwards and down. i also tell horses head down when preparing for a transition up or down. this gets them going forwards and often solves issues where the horse lifts the head and comes back at you thus hollowing. if the horse hollows back to the transition i send them on again and get the body right forst before asking again.

people often gat a totally different response from what they wanted coz the horse is watching their legs rather then the traditional signals they are giving. funny that they never cotton on.