Question for you all.

[bellazebra]

Ok, here's a question for you.

I have great relationships with my two geldings. Actually, make that brilliant relationships. Now, they are both ironshod, ridden in treed saddles, fed concentrates, stabled, clipped and trimmed. I have never done any kind of NH with either of them.

They wait by the gate for me when they know I'm coming, they call and nicker to me as though I'm one of their own. I have no problems whatsoever handling them. I can hack out/school/jump/gallop in a headcollar with one leadrope. They move back, away, pick up feet and turn on vocal cue. They have never been reprimanded other than with a firm word, and they watch me moving around the yard like a pair of hawks.

Out in the field they follow me, and will even let me play with them (which usually involves the "canteraftermum,flyingleapthroughtheair,fartsquinnyandstagjump" type of games that they play with each other). They groom me, they look after me when I'm in trouble (including one horrible day when Harvey squared up to a slightly agitated Rottweiler) and are genuinley happy with their lot.

So, with all that in mind, what benefit exactly could I achieve by doing NH with them? They respect and treat me as one of their own and accept me in every situation. I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just not a fan of NH and I think it's a bit of a money-making scheme rather than an actual answer.

Answers on a postcard please. :D

[No_Angel]

Natural horsemanship is a state of mind rather than an actual practice really, anyone can do it, its just trainers have broken it down into chunks to give the people who may be less naturally talented with horses help, it could be that you are already doing NH type work with your horses without knowing it:) if you give the horse a clear cue that they can understand, in a way that is easily understandable to them, then that is 'natural' as you are using how the horse is learning to your advantage and training him.

[mayoguinness]

um, many person has said to me when I say, my hose is fantastic thanks to ANH, they reply "well your one of the lucky ones"!! I think my time has come to say it back to someone else. I see very very few people with results that you state, good on ya if its working, my horse had tons of problems and he was treated similar by the sounds of it as you have said you treated your horses and he had noe end of problems and fears and mistrust!! I guess your horses came to you without problems?? You say its money making yet I have never had to buy anything except for a treeless saddle, a couple of brushes and a rope halter?? Never had to shoe him or stable him or buy any gadgets, if anything doesn't that save money??

[KateWooten]

I wish I were a fantastic horseman too. I wish I'd been born that way. But I wasn't.

I needed to ask other people how they managed to do things, I didn't automatically know.

Fortunately for me, some people who already were great horsemen had put down their thoughts in books, dvds, clinics etc so I was able to learn some of the stuff they did.

Why do you think that is such a bad thing for someone like me ?

Do you think it's better that people like you who know how to have a great relationship with horses should keep it all to themselves and not share ?

Why won't you share ?

Why do you resent people who will share ?

Why do you resent me for offering money to those people who are willing to share ?

[teabiscuit]

I have great relationships with my horses too, it took me many years to arrive at some sort of understanding which i can now apply to the care and education of my dear horses.

One of the major headaches I have with books is that they don't replace real life, and one person's experience becomes a sort of "law" that is preached to others by followers of the "guru".
Now, the guru may have excellent methods that work for many horses and owners, but unfortunatly it takes the inventiveness, imagination and the "lets see if that works" out of horsemanship.

which kinda bums me out BIG time and makes me very mad and very sad.

Yes books can help short cut the accidents (good, no argument there) and the time (good) needed to get a good grounding in "horses"

but they can be awfully stifleing too, and far too easy to stop a person thinking about the problem, slowing down, asking what is happening inside the horses head, asking what is happening inside MY head.

[Yann]

To answer the original question, not a lot, you're already doing it. The type of NH I'm interested in is basically aimed at arriving at the situation you're in, something I think I have to an extent with my horses too. The shoes / feed / tack etc. is irrelevant in my book.

If you don't have a great situation with your horse then using a bit of knowledge from NH sources can be a great way of getting there without lots of trial and error, and it can be and is a huge amount of help to a lot of people. I tend to like people who aren't rigid and dogmatic anyway and encourage you to work things out for yourself in the way that suits you.

If you wanted to take things a step further and get into stuff like liberty work and tackless riding then that's another thing again :)

[LodgeRopes]

I just wish I could think of something witty to say, but nothing comes to mind.

If it aint broke, dont fix it.

I may just go and sit quietly in the corner and read my new copy of "stating the bleedin obvious monthly"

[KarinUS]

I think a lot of the examples you posted I would have already considerd to be NH type stuff (like riding in your halter, etc.).
I didn't quite understand what the other stuff had to do with it, like clipping, etc. :confused:

[Shadowlark]

I think there is a blur between the lines of Natural horsemanship, and keeping a horse naturaly.. It's naturaly occuring of course :)

People seeking that sort of relationship with thier horse, tend to begin exploring other avenues of natural horsekeeping in partner with it.

It's interesting to step back for me and see where that blurry line is in the dirt.. Because I ride in a halter and lead rope, with a treeless saddle, on a barefoot horse who doesn't wear a blanket or have a clip job and hasn't seen hardfeed in its life.. doesn't make me a Natural horsewoman it means I keep my horse more naturaly (the more added as I recognize that by riding, training and fencing my horses that they are no longer in thier natrual environment)

Now by teaching a horse by considerate means, dependant on the Ethology of my horse and his/her understandings of body language etc. By avoiding gimmicks, restraints and training devices and by constantly considering my horses physical and emotional state be that under a dressage saddle, bitted and treed, bare in a round pen or running a reining pattern NOW I would start to call myself a Natural horsewoman.

[Pink's lady]

So, with all that in mind, what benefit exactly could I achieve by doing NH with them?

Exactly the same as you would from doing dressage or showjumping or eventing. It's something different to do with your horse and a training method. It can be a means to an end or it can BE the end point.

Like others have said, I see it more as mentality - treat your horse like a horse, communicate to them in a language they understand. If they don't understand find a way they do. Listen to what they have to say and take that into consideration (you don't have to agree with what they say;)).

All the 'barefoot and treeless and natural diet' isn't strictly NR but it is trying to treat your horse as much like a horse as possible. If we treated them completely naturally we wouldn't ride them at all but it's trying to find a balance.

And generally the 'natural' way of keeping horses is healthier - it's what they evolved to survive and most points have been scientifically proven. We modify it to suit OUR needs, rarely theirs. My horses lives a 'naturally' as possible:

They have a fibre based diet mostly- that's what they are desgined to eat - fibre and lots of it, with no concentrate. Thier teeth and digestion are much heathier when they have a fibre diet (that's scientific fact, not opinion). BUT mine also get concentrates when fibre alone isn't enough to keep them going.

They are barefoot mostly - their feet function better without shoes with less concusions etc (again, fact, not opionion). BUT Kalli and Kim have front shoes on as it would take a lot of time and effort on my part to get them sorted with boots and transition to cope without. Thats not for their benfit - it's for mine.

They live out 24/7 mostly. Horses are happiest when out with friends walking about (my opinion and have been proven). Their bodies are designed to move constantly and not be stabled (that fact - swollen joints, stiffness, coughing etc are all caused by stabling - some horses just don't show it to such an extent)). Mine however come in during the day in winter as the field is like a bog and their feet rot. Plus they can get a big pile of hay.

They have company - horses are social animals (fact) and I personally beleive it's cruel to keep a horse on it's own - people do it and the horse survives but I would never ever condone it. If I was ever in the situation where my horse had to live on it's own, I would sell it. I don't think it is EVER acceptable to force a horse into solitary confinement. It's one of the few points I feel very strongly about (that and saddle fitting)

They live without a rug mostly. Their well equiped to regulate their body temperature. BUT I clip Pink as she gets sweaty without it an uncomfortable. Kalli wore a rug this year as she was clipped by the dealer and was skinny and was getting cold. If your horse grows a wooly bear coat (and can keep it still doing the work required) that's great - if not we need to ensure they stay warm. Although most people spoil their horse more than strictly nessesary to make themselves feel better, not the horse.

Treeless saddles are more debateable. Putting a saddle on a horse is never going to be 'natural' but all horses should be confortable with their saddles. I therefore make sure my saddles are as good a fit as humanally possible, and listen to the horse if they tell me it's not. I personally don't agree with treeless saddles for various reasons but some people swear by them. It doesn't really matter as long as the horse is comfortable. The same applies for bitting really.

I'll be quiet now...........

[Kate F.]

Maybe you're the perfect horse person instinctively. Maybe there are flaws in the relationship and you don't see them, or don't want to see them.

Unless you learn to read horses as a study so you can then analyse what really is happening, you'll never know. Perhaps you'd do NH and think "this is what I'm doing anyway, and I know all this anyway". Maybe you'd think "Wow - I thought I had a brilliant relationship with my horses before, but now I can see it could be even better!"

Without seeing you with your horses it's impossible to tell whether the relationship is really as brilliant as you feel it is. I don't think many NH people would claim "brilliant" relationships with their horses - the more NH you do, the more you see where you can always get better - so I think the people who take NH seriously would usually see their relationships with their horses as "good - but there's always room for improvement"!

If you're curious about whether things could be even better - give NH a try and find out - but for you, choose a person/approach that focuses on the behavioural elements, and less on "do this and that will happen". If you're content that things are as good as they can ever be, and feel there's no room for improvement, don't bother because you'd be coming to it with a closed mind so wouldn't benefit anyway.

You're right that there are some money-makers out there jumping on the bandwaggon - but just because some people behave like that, it doesn't mean the underlying principles and philosophy are wrong or unhelpful. There are also plenty of dedicated people who genuinely want to help people to understand their horses better - or in this case maybe EVEN better! :)

You see, NH isn't just about how the horse behaves towards you, it's also about how you behave towards the horse. It's about understanding the horse's world better and understanding what makes the horse tick, so that you can communicate with them as effectively as possible and make yourself a better trainer of your horses. Whether you then want to apply that in riding bridleless and saddleless, or in dressage, jumping, eventing or anything else is then your choice. Some programmes set up levels and prescribed exercises that are, in a way, their own discipline - but you've only really "got it" when you can see why those exercises are important and how you can use the principles in other contexts to achieve your own goals.

[Crystal Fire]

Lodge Ropes has already said exactly what I was going to type. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
I'll add - if you think something is just a money making scheme don't spend any money on it.
If you think NH is about barefoot, treeless and bitless then I think you've missed the point.
And - there is no such thing as a perfect horse person, I firmly believe that we never stop learning and having opportunities to improve.

[Bronya]

For most people, it's about helping them to understand their horse better. If that's where you are already, then why not concentrate on whatever you want to do with them instead - hacking, competing...

[Crystal Fire]

Bearing in mind that... if you do decide to use a natural horsemanship approach with your horse, it should form a basis for all of those activities - hacking, jumping etc etc, it's not a separate discipline, it's an approach to training.

[Meovcorz]

I'll like to answer your question with a question.

How many years have you been around horses, riding horses, and working with horses??? And how long have you owned your two geldings????

I'd say you aught to be VERY grateful to God your creator for giving you such a way with horses. I really wish I had that talent, but I have have talents you do not have, and you have talents I do not have. God made every single human being different, you're fingerprint is different from every body else in the world, you have desires that I don't have. i personaly am very grateful for all the books and videos and websites, and things like that out there to help me learn new things.

Also I have another question for you. How did you learn to ride a horse? Dod you get any hints along the way? Did you go to a riding school? Did a RI teach you? If so did you pay her/him? Someone has to pay for somthing. I mean, just say you want to learn how to Garden (Just Say) so you go down to the Book store and Lo and Behold you have to pay for that book, Yes you can get information from other places. But you have to pay for something somwhere. People have to live, in this world and this day and age, we have to buy things, yes we do, you can't say I don't need money so you throw it all out saying it's just peices of paper its not worth anything. But in our day and age we it is worth something.

Alright I'll be quiet now................