need help with welsh cross!! please!!

[horseygurlala]

*I posted this on the adults who ride ponies board but I guessed that this would be just as good also*

Hey everyone, this is my first time posting on here. I figured that I would give it try because I desperatley need help with my trainers pony. My trainer just started a lesson barn with a load of great horses. She had bought two welsh cross ponies for her lesson program, them being the only ponies at her barn also. She had asked me to work with the bay gelding about a month and a half ago. Ok so I have been on speedy horses before, which I can handle but this pony is over the top. He is a perfect gentleman on the ground but as soon as you start riding him, it turns into a nightmare. This pony doesn't like to stand still when you mount him or more like when you are "trying" to mount him. So what I normally do is back his butt up into the gate so he can't move back any farther. I only do this because I have no idea what to do to teach him how to stand still. If anyone has advice on the whole mounting thing please let me know!! so now moving on to when i am working him. It takes a very long time to get this pony to settle down enough to do a somewhat sane trot. The whole time I feel like he is anticipating the canter, which half the time i don't even ask of him. He is capable of a nice collected trot but I have only experienced this one time, actually the first time I rode him. Ever since then, it seems that he is running away with me. So I tried halting him at every corner of the ring when I was trotting him. This did not work at all! It seemed like it frustrated him more than anything, and a couple times he would paw the ground or do like a 1 foot off the ground rear on me. When he is cantering he is the same way when he is trotting too, for a pony he is a handful, but aren't they all? My trainer keeps telling me that he just needs to be ridden more often, but last week I rode him three days in a row and saw no change. I really do need help with him, I really would like to someday see him working the beginner lessons but as of right now that will never happen. Please if anyone has any advice whatsoever I will take it!
Thank you!!

[horseygirl123]

Just a few questions ...

How old is the pony?
Has he had his back, teeth etc checked recently?
Where does he live, in or out? If in, how much turnout does he get each day?

[horseygurlala]

He is a 4 year old welsh quarter horse cross. I am not sure if he has had his back or his teeth checked recently, I'll have to ask my trainer about that. And about the turnout, he gets turned out most of the day with the rest of her horses.

[eml]

Hard to advise you as we do things very differently in the UK and a four year old would just be starting work and certainly not be likely to be sutable as a lesson horse for beginners.

In the UK welsh ponies are often very sharp/quick witted and also late maturing. If this applies to yours as well it is quite possible that he needs much more variety in his work and not just more of the same, this may be why he seems to be getting worse not better. Not knowing the cross I don't know how big he is but I often find small ponies much worse with adults than children

As far as the mounting problem I often find this with childrens ponies as so often they are held by an adult why the child mounts or even not mounted at all as the child is legged up. I find the best solution is to get a helper to stand with the pony initially and reward it every time you make some progress. Start with getting on as quickly as possible and then asking for a walk on before the pony thinks of it , progress to standing still after mounting to wait for reward and then to having the helper just be nearby and then by yourself. Do remember the reward and don't allow movement until after it after the initial stage of 'leap on and go' is over.

[Rhein]

At 4 I would consider him still to be a baby. I wonder if you are expecting too much from him at this stage. I personally would not expect to see a huge change after riding him for three days in a row - it will take much longer than that to gain his trust and for him to understand exactly what you are asking him to do

I would suggest that he needs some slow and careful training from an experienced trainer. There is no reason why in time he won't be an excellent beginners pony. But it will take some time and a lot of patience :)

[hamannfieldstab]

I have had many horses that in the past that wont stand still durring mounting.... What kind of bit are you using???? I would be using something snaffle like with moderate bar's on both sides... Then get him all ready to ride and lower the left stirruip to is absolutle lowest setting to make it easier for you to get your foot in, (easy in a western saddle) but do not get on him.... grab the left handed rein and bring his head all the way over to where you are usually mounting from and act like you are going to mount him... I mean reallly go through the motions of mounting him... but just do not swing your leg over... this causes the horse to just make very tight circles around your body with you still in a position to mount. Plan on doing this lesson many times, all the time driving him around to go in circles. He WILL tire of going around in those tight circles and look for a relax pressure freee spot. When he does stop, release some of the pressure on the left rein...... Just keep going on this lesson without ever actually mounting him all of the way. as he relaxes more and more in a pressure free spot, make sure that you release more and more of the pressure..... eventually you will have a young horse that may need some reminding from time to time by making those tight mounting circles, but he will learn to relax durring mounting.

In my experience it is allways best to to work on the thing that bothers the horse most. so if it is mounting that bothers him, then pratice mounting over and over until the horse de-sensatizes to the process.

It almost sounds to me like your trainer is challenging you to see if you can get the horse over its problem. I would wonder if the trainer knows all about it and is just hopeing to see if you can get through it with out throwing your hands up in the air and getting frustrated???? Sound almost like something I might try with one of my students...:rolleyes:

Let me know how it goes when you try it, and remember, even if you choose another method of working this out, you can do this... I know that you can... I hear the frustration in your words. Go slow, be patient, and lesson is over when you get frustrated or angry.. Remember that riding the horse is NOT the prize, but YOUR relationship with the horse IS the prize. Work the basics gurl, and dont quit. How often do you just brush your horse?
Mark

[KateWooten]

At four, with him whizzing about and not really wanting to focus on you.... and not standing for mounting ... I'd be doing a complete restart from the ground up. I say that a lot, and people jump on me and tell me not everyone has time and energy to restart a horse. It takes less and less time each time you do it, and it takes a LOT less time in the long run, than struggling onto more advanced stuff before you've got the earlier stuff solid.

Start from the beginning, establish a culture of 'try' and 'reward' between you and the pony. You'll be suprised at how progress accelerates that way. Nobody ever got into trouble by starting 'too basic'.

Never get on a horse that won't stand still for mounting. It's one of a long list of fundamental 'pre-flight checks' .. if he's failing any one of them, stop what you're doing, breathe, think out the solution FROM THERE, ( not from where you want to be - the solution starts from where you ARE ) ... and start working on it. With a young horse, or any horse who is new to you, be prepared to change and adapt your plan for the day according to the horse you have in front of you.

Don't be afraid of going back to baby steps. Go back as far as you need to ... go back to where the horse is giving you 'yes' answers 100% of the time ... and work from there. If that means standing still, asking the horse's head to lower while you put the halter on, and take it off ... baby stuff ... then work from there. (That's what I've been doing today, btw, with Pony One - and she's 7 and already has a show record in hunters ... but in my opinion, if people had taken the time to work with her at her own pace, listen and guage her reaction, and not race along on their own agenda, then she wouldn't be the uncontrollable bucking nightmare of a messed up pony that was being thrown away 6 months ago !)

It's very hard to take things as slowly as you need to. But have a think about it, because it really is worth it in the long run.

[hamannfieldstab]

At four, with him whizzing about and not really wanting to focus on you.... and not standing for mounting ... I'd be doing a complete restart from the ground up. I say that a lot, and people jump on me and tell me not everyone has time and energy to restart a horse. It takes less and less time each time you do it, and it takes a LOT less time in the long run, than struggling onto more advanced stuff before you've got the earlier stuff solid.

Start from the beginning, establish a culture of 'try' and 'reward' between you and the pony. You'll be suprised at how progress accelerates that way. Nobody ever got into trouble by starting 'too basic'.

Never get on a horse that won't stand still for mounting. It's one of a long list of fundamental 'pre-flight checks' .. if he's failing any one of them, stop what you're doing, breathe, think out the solution FROM THERE, ( not from where you want to be - the solution starts from where you ARE ) ... and start working on it. With a young horse, or any horse who is new to you, be prepared to change and adapt your plan for the day according to the horse you have in front of you.

Don't be afraid of going back to baby steps. Go back as far as you need to ... go back to where the horse is giving you 'yes' answers 100% of the time ... and work from there. If that means standing still, asking the horse's head to lower while you put the halter on, and take it off ... baby stuff ... then work from there. (That's what I've been doing today, btw, with Pony One - and she's 7 and already has a show record in hunters ... but in my opinion, if people had taken the time to work with her at her own pace, listen and guage her reaction, and not race along on their own agenda, then she wouldn't be the uncontrollable bucking nightmare of a messed up pony that was being thrown away 6 months ago !)

It's very hard to take things as slowly as you need to. But have a think about it, because it really is worth it in the long run.
Go Kate.... I like you already... I will be watching your post's!!!!!!!!

[sheryl]

Was he actually properly started, before he came to your yard?

If he hasn't been with you for long, maybe he hasn't properly settled in yet:confused:

Or maybe he just hasn't got a clue what you want him to do:confused: .

Do you know his background, and what he had done up until now? If not, I'd start all over again, starting with the mounting. Practice it over and over, until he gets it right, and then reward with loads of praise, and call it quits for the day. Be extra careful that you're not digging him with your toe as you mount, and once having sat down carefully, just stand there, and don't ask him to move, then get down.Do that everyday until he stands for you to mount, and then move on to the next thing - moving forward in walk, and stopping when asked.

It may even be a good idea to teach him the voice commands, by lungeing him.

It may take a few weeks to see any progress, but make sure you reward every little try, and he should get the right idea.

Also, what is he fed?

[horseygurlala]

Thank you all for the advice!!

Just wanted to add a few more things...
My trainer bought him when he was 3 and at this point he had already been shown and was jumping courses! This seems crazy to me that someone would start a pony that early!! He is 13.1 so he's a nice size for me but believe me he has the muscle and power of a quarter horse. Lunging him is a nightmare as well as the riding aspect. I tried lunging him today and it just turned out terrible. He kept turning to the inside and would come to a dead stop but when I would ask him to move on from this point he would either give me a funny confused look or bolt in any direction, leaving my hands burned.

ok so to answer all of your questions...
emL- I think you might be on to something when you say he is tired of the norm. He is quite the clever lil welsh pony, I will definately try to switch things up a little bit next time I ride him. Also most of the time my trainer does try to hold him for me while mounting, which I refuse most of the time because I am stubborn and want to get him to stand still myself. If anyone has any suggestions as to simple exercises to do with green horses, just let me know.

Rhein- I do agree with you that I need to work with him much more to earn his trust, as of right now, I do not feel that I have earned it yet. I personally do consider him a baby also, he definately acts like a young pony.

hammanfieldstab- um I'm pretty sure its some sort of snaffle that he is wearing, I'll have to double check next week to confirm what it is. I will use your advice with the mounting next week when I ride, it sounds like it would really work with him. I do feel that my trainer has given me the chance to work with him as some sort of a project and test, I won't give up!! And thank you for the encouraging words, it does get quite frustrating after a while!

KateWooten- I will go back to baby steps with him, I think that could really help out. It is really encouraging to hear that you have a wonderful horse now that started out a total nightmare.

Sheryl- He has been at my trainers barn for 6 months now, I would hope that he is settled by now. about the starting before my trainer bought him, I seem to get the sense that he was rushed. He was shown and was jumping courses before my trainer bought him in october, and he was just 3 then! I also feel that he doesn't quite understand what I am asking of him some of the time, especially with lunging. I tried lunging him today and he was completely awful! He would not go in a complete circle without turning his head to the inside and coming to a dead stop or he would just shoot out in one direction (leaving my hands burned!) I can't figure out whether he is just being very fresh or just doesn't understand...or maybe a lil of both? and about the feeding, I have no idea but I will check on it next week.

Again, thank you all and any other advice would be appreciated!! :)

[tillsmum]

Having had a welsh cob and now the proud owner of a welsh sec a i would definatly echo the fact that they are extremely clever and will take advantage. Having read the rest of the posts I would definatly say hanging up the tack and not touching it for a least a month would help him enormously these kinds of horses need the one to one and once they trust you they are usually putty in your hands. Play games, go for walks, sit and read in his stable and show him the joys of grooming. It will work marvels trust me. Also even though your showing him your nice and he can trust him you'll never hurt him no matter what anyone else has done. Be firm or he will start to walk all over you. My cob had been softly handled by inexperienced people and when i got her she rushed fences or refused to jump them. Couldn't hunt because she had had to many bad experiences, and the first time i picked her feet out she pinned me against a gate because she had leanrt that you'll get left alone if you scare people. I stuck with it and 18mths later when she went if you said over she would just move over. In those 18mths all we really did was ground work as I got pregnant.

Good luck the rewards when you come out the other end will be enormous