How do you earn a horse's respect?

[domane]

I was loathe to ask the question "how do you TEACH a horse respect" as I firmly believe respect has to be earned.... I'm interested to hear how everyone has individually earned their respect and become Alpha horse...

I'm not sure how much of Ludo's babyish "hi-jinks" I should be tolerating and how to reprimand him, if needs be, at his young age. All comments, ideas and suggestion would be gratefully received.......

[Harry Hobbes]

Domane,

Your two paragraphs above query about two different, albeit not un-related subjects: respect and then behavior.

Not sure if it is your intent to relate the two, but the practice of equating the two analogously tends to confuse folks at minimum, and get people into trouble at worst.

Are you interested in a discussion about respect? Or behavior? Or how one relates to the other?

Best regards,
Harry

[Tots N Dots]

well
I had to earn Pickles respect.
I had to stop treating him like a baby, stop worrying that if I "reprimanded" him that he would up the anti, basically I had to start acting as if I deserved the respect? and basically be one step ahead of him all the time ;)
Pickle is a very easy pony but he is bright and he gets bored easily, he will fence hop (although he is bright enough not to let us see him, just find him in a different field) he will also try to dominate me, and does have a very cheeky streak.
if he tried to nip I would lightly tap him on his cannon bone with my foot, he got wise to this and would nip and immediately hold his leg out the way heehee
luckily I have learnt my mistakes in time before I got a "problem horse" I have stopped babying just because he is so cute and my pride and joy, and I have got alot tougher with him when he steps out of line.
he has recently been trying to get up to high jinks while lunging and longlineing, but a growl from me is enough to stop him :D

it was very easy for me to think that his behaviour was because he was young, and it was, but letting him get away with it all the time wasnt the best thing for him.
I think with Ludo you may have to sit down and give yourself some goals to work for? decide what you think is acceptable and what isnt? and be very consistant? :D
I found Richard Maxwells Birth To Backing very helpfull, although I dont like his halter :D

[sheryl]

Sometimes I still wonder if Indi respects me:rolleyes: . It is always 3 steps forwards and 2 back:o

However, I would say zero tolerance is good. Be fair, patient and consistent. Loads of praise for the slightest good behaviour, and a firm reprimand for the bad. You need to react quickly, to good or bad.

A bit like a strict school teacher:p . They need to understand the boundaries, and expect a rollocking when they over step the mark;)

[Bay Mare]

I don't think that you DO teach respect. I firmly believe that you gain respect with correct handling techniques, being respectful of your horse and being consistent and fair.

I don't want to be the alpha, that has never been my aim. I'm not part of her herd so I have no desire to be alpha horse.

I work towards mutual respect, she does what she does because she wants to and she behaves because she has respect. I still want her to have a voice so that if anything bothers her then I want to know about it. I don't want her to blindly do what I ask irrespective of the cost to her. I do, however, want her to have manners and have taught her good manners but in the same way I need to be well mannered to her otherwise the balance of the relationship is off.

I prefer positive reinforcement and it's worked beautifully on Saff. It's not to say that dangerous behaviour wouldn't be punished but we have got so much more out of her by rewarding the good and ignoring the bad. If they know that they are rewarded for behaving well then they're more likely to strive for the reward. Ignoring the bad means that they don't get the reward so they're less likely to keep repeating the behaviour.

[Yann]

I suppose you could also ask what type of respect...

From an NH type viewpoint if you control the horse's feet then you outrank them and all the different trainers and training systems work on this basis. So if you are able to get the horse to yield to pressure, be that a headcollar and lead rope, direct contact or even visually, then it will begin to view you differently.

If you can do this and also be 100% reliable, patient and consistent in all your dealing with the horse, setting firm boundaries but also being a good person to be around then you hopefully have the basis for a positive relationship. Horses generally like to have leaders they can rely on, and feel much happier and more secure as a result.

[domane]

I prefer positive reinforcement and it's worked beautifully on Saff. It's not to say that dangerous behaviour wouldn't be punished but we have got so much more out of her by rewarding the good and ignoring the bad. If they know that they are rewarded for behaving well then they're more likely to strive for the reward. Ignoring the bad means that they don't get the reward so they're less likely to keep repeating the behaviour.

Ooh, now I like the priniciple behind this BM - that sounds very "me" - I'm always praising him and telling him what a good boy he is and stroking his neck, when grooming, leading, handling etc... it just comes out without me realising it. I reckon he thinks his name is "Good Boy" :p

What worries me is how much I should expect from a one year old.... for example, today I went to get him and Cherry in, I put his headcollar on but not his leadrope, figuring as they were way down the field, that it would be easier to lead Cherry and have Ludo follow, rather than attempting a soggy, slippery slope with her lungeing at him hatefully all the time... I turned to go and buckle up Cherry, took a few steps, turned and realised his head was at my elbow following me. With that he did a half-rear and flung his front feet out at me so I had to take a swift step backwards - so I shook his leadrope at him and he veered away, bucking/kicking up his heels as he cantered off. Now... initially I saw that as intimidating behaviour but after thinking about it, I figured he is relaxed enough in my company that he actually wanted to play... his only companion at the mo is Cherry and she is 16 and stocking up on grass so I think he did "what colts do" and just wanted to play....he didn't realise that he was behaving downright dangerously (and I shall ensure I wear my riding hat in the field from now on.....) Once I started leading Chez, he tucked in nicely behind her and walked up quietly to the gate, whereupon I clipped his leadrope on and he was as good as gold...... so he then got praised for walking in nicely. So essentially I suppose I "sent him away" when he got too close for comfort but there was no aggression from me, just a waving of the rope....

[Iron Maiden]

I think there possibly is also respect as a rider, & respect as a handler. My old cob was a fab ridden horse - we just clicked & he would go anywhere & do anything for me - but on the ground, well he clearly saw me as a weak & pathetic person because he would barge straight through me as the point of least resistance given the chance! I did some parelli with him & he got loads better, I think it helped me understand where he was coming from & the importance of being consistent and firm but fair with him. I think I have P's respect now, she used to challenge me constantly but now she seems to have decided I'm her mum & am worthy her respect. I think the lessons about consistency, firmness & fairness that I learned with my old horse have been key to this. I'm sure she will challenge me periodically (the gentle nuzzle may develop teeth!) but as long as I react to this with an appropriate correction I reckon we'll be OK. For your situation with a youngster, I think you just need to decide where you are going to draw the line & be consistent about it, bearing in mind that horses like to push the boundaries a bit - e.g. I made a rod for my own back when I decided not to correct P for nudging me with her head & sometimes she whacks me like a demolition ball, so maybe if I get another baby horse one day I'll do that bit differently!

[Lot1983]

Hummmm, my Sam bites, he was beaten when he was younger so we believe this is the route cause of the biting as it is especially bad in enclosed spaces like the stable.

When I first started riding Sam I used my voice to repremand him when he tried to nip, being a bit silly I decided it wasn't working, I asked for advice.... one of the many suggestions was to bite him back the second he went for me, like another horse would, so whenever he tried to nip, I instantly pinched him. Big mistake, I then ended up with a horse that would stamp his feet in fustration, kicking out instead and generally not being happy to have me around.

Scrap that I though and I went up to using my voice to tell him off and praise him, its taken a couple of months for us to be friends again, but now he's starting to relax around me, the other day I put his rug on him whilst he was loose in the stable now more often than not he will just use his head to physically block me instead of the ears back and biting horse.

Still a very long way to go and he's an older chap stuck in his ways, but we're getting there, we even have cuddles these days!

[Dizzy]

I always work on the theory that if a horse moves me it is dominating me. I never bully, but I will always do what I have to, to stand my ground.

I never pick a fight, if I know a certain thing will make the horse react negatively, I'll work round it, and introduce that certain thing gradually, praising it at every opportunity.

Domane, I think you handled the situation extremely well, what you must bear in mind, is that babies get used to having 100% of our attention, from when they are born, they are very cheeky, playful and full of energy and always trying to push the boundaries.

If they are turned out with a herd, other horses only tolerate so much, then they them chase into touch - with no holes barred and they quickly learn respect, and there is no positive reinforcement there, but a vital lesson learnt.

With boisterous youngsters I always behave as a dominant mare, until I have respect, then I introduce praise.

Next time you go to bring them in, take an extra lead rein and use it to claim your space. rearing up at you is naughty and unacceptable, remember positive re enforcement is for rewarding good behaviour - not rewarding them for not being naughty.

[Tots N Dots]

With that he did a half-rear and flung his front feet out at me so I had to take a swift step backwards
this is what Pickle started to do, he would go up and chuck his front feet out in my face while on the lead rope, was very scarey and caught me so off guard the 1st time that I had a bit of a panic, he learns very quickly! and that was it, everytime I had him on leadrope he would start and I was completely at a loss how to handle it.
I put his behaviour down to a few things....
Being gelded late
Seeing me as a playmate
Me not setting boundries
Lack of respect
I was following a lot of Monty Roberts stuff at the time and had found sending him away worked brilliantly with his behaviour, this then had later repercussions as he realised that I couldnt do that while he was on leadrope, and even more problems leading out on the road :( to the point he was being dangerous.
I put a thread up at the time here which you may find interesting?
Problems with a 3 year old (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84867)
and I ended up having quite a long PM session with Kate Wootten :D I am suprised she hasnt spotted this one yet :D

I think I had been so soft with Pickle, that although my prefered method would deffinitely have been positive reinforcement, I had to make a stand with him, I went back in with Pickle and I made that stand, its the only time I have ever had to do it and our relationship changed dramatically.
its mainly thanks to Kate Wootten and Holiday (many others have helped along the way but their patience with me and thier input has been major believe me ;) ) that Pickle is the pony he is now, and that I havent (so far) created a "problem pony" lol :D

[Bronya]

Sit and watch him with Cherry one day - take a few hours, and just watch. She has his respect, and she instinctively knows how much to tolerate or not with a yearling.

There is a difference between 'play' and disrespectful play. My boyfriend's pony will play when he takes her out for a run in-hand, yet she is always mindful of him. She will leap about, making sure she's hung back so she won't kick him, and will frolic as they run. On occasions when she has got too close for comfort, he has stopped, turned her to face him, and given her a 'talking to' loudly. She usually looks resigned while he does this, but then does behave when they run off again. She's in 24/7 at the moment, so we figure she's allowed to leap a little, so long as it's safe.

If you want to mimic what a lead mare would do - if he's unsafe or disrespectful, send him away. To do this, take a couple of abrupt steps towards him, flicking a leadrope at him. No need to touch him with the rope unless he refuses to go. If he refuses, you need to touch him on the rump so he runs ( bear in mind he may kick out as he goes so keep well back!). If the naughtiness was only minor, just ignore him and walk away. He should come back and be good (as he was the other night). If it was major, or he wouldn't initially go when asked, then you play 'I don't want to know you' and send him away when he comes near, until he licks and chews and is apologetic. Then you let him come.

An example of how it works:
- In a field full of horses, using that method I was respected enough (only had to run at them didn't need a rope) that I could feed my two in the field without disturbance, as long as I was there with them.
- When my mare bucked me off and ran off down the field, I didn't want to know her. I got my boyfriend to catch her, look after her, lunge her. I pretended she didn't exist. She was very upset and although at first she was like 'I didn't do anything wrong' and bolshy, after a day or so she began to wish she hadn't (looked miserable, was more gentle). I walked into the arena after bf had lunged her, unclipped her rope and she followed me very closely. She is still not completely trusted, and from the way she is handled/talked to, knows it. Once I trusted her enough to ride her again, she was very happy, and is much softer and happier now. She is also being careful to behave, we shall see how the bucking goes....
- Once, my mare bit me (was aiming at the pony not me and I got in the way). She was tied up, so I just walked off and left her, made a huge fuss of the pony, rode the pony, groomed the pony, wouldn't even look at my horse. Honestly, she would have cried if horses could she looked so miserable. After an hour and a half of fussing and riding the pony I walked up to her and showed her the damage. She was nuzzly and gentle, behaved impeccably when ridden, and in six months or so has never gone to bite the pony in my presence again (when she used to do so).

Withdrawing your attention/love is exactly what horses do - they exile a naughty one outside the safety of the herd. For a baby, 'tis only temporary. For a naughty youngster, it can last for days. Bf's pony used to have no equine manners at all. For several months when she rejoined a proper herd, she could often be found grazing alone after having committed some offence or other. You could always tell 'cause my horse didn't want to know her when led together (they're usually friends), and the pony would be very 'down' and in need of cuddles.

[Trewsers]

I didn't deliberately set out to earn Storm's respect, as a first time novice horse owner, I have made a good few mistakes!! But, having said that - using a mixture of both common sense and good advice from fellow horse people I feel that now I have her respect. Its a bit about confidence, but a lot about patience as far as I'm concerned. There was no short cut, after two years we are finally getting there! Tho, I may just be lucky, as she is a lovely mare with a lovely temperament, I have been told this by a few people who have seen her with me. I love the idea of NH but don't particularly follow one set type.

[blushin_bex]

This is very intresting to me as for various reasons my horse misbehaves when being lead to the field. Unfortunately he has to be kept in at night (and all of this stops when he is out 24/7) and its leading him out in the morning that is a problem. It starts with me trying to walk at 100 miles a hr to keep up with him, he will then nip me not with teeth but as a playful threat, sometimes we make it up to field before he explodes other times he explodes on route (possibly only explodes on the day he has seen his best mate put out before him). He bucks and rears which makes me jump away and he turns himself around to face me when he can then rear and jump side to side as much as he wants but i hate it! I have to try to turn him back round with out a leg flying towards me and still get him to the gate by which point he is sooo excited he explodes across the field! All at 8 in the morning before work!

I have chosen to ignore the biting as if I growl etc it sets him off, I just push his head back straight, also I feel it is a very fine line between me not walking fast enough and asking him to slow at the wrong time which sets him off. I usually wear a hat and normally someone else walks with me or is about but its always on the mornings where no one else is about and he seems to of got out of the habit of doing it!

In general he is well behaved doing other things and is a sweetie in stable/ to brush (although senstive and lets me know through his face which I always respect) He has come on amazingly in school lunging long reigning loose etc, but he is only ever this excited when going towards field!

I feel have lost it with him two or three times mainly through feeling threatened and the next step from him was going to be aimed at me so i shouted at him really loud and gave him several really nasty tugs on his be nice halter, not proud but only way I felt at that time being alone with a nutter! It does seem to work but the last time I shouted he then tried it by gate and I actually forced him back cant quite remember what I did as i competly acted on instinct (being stuck inbetween a loony horse and a gate) but it was several hard wacks on his chest unfortunately but he did move back. Just feel he has absolutely no respect for me being a little dot and him a whopper of a boy.

So my next thought is to turn him around every time he starts, he attempts the undesired behaviour so I turn back towards the stables with him, then attempt again, if he does same bad behavior we turn around again etc until he walks camly beside me with lots and lots of praise.

Would appreicate your thoughts on this, I have handled many horses who misbehave, rear etc but its the unpredictability with him of which way his legs might fly and quite when he will do it that gets me!

Sorry its so long! Oh and yes he is out with about 10 others and is top of the herd! Though not a bully just a loony who gallops and bucks and they looked amazd towards him having so much energy (being half sleepy and worn out as been out all night)!

[Wally]

I am Alpha, I am part of the herd, if I walk into the field with a bag of sweeties I expect to eat them ALL myself without being hassled for them! :D

They can fight amoungst themselves when I am not there, when I am about we will have utter 'haviour! ;)

Being predictable and fair is how to gain trust and respect. You cannot have one without the other. I think that trust+respect=love in the hrose's way of thinking. (risking anthropomorphism here!!)

I will always act the same way, the horse knows this, or grows to know this. Barge me down and kick me he will meet with the same reaction every time, and it won't be to his advantage.

If he's respectful and does what is asked of him he will gain.

If I start a job, I will finish it, the horse knows this.....or learns it anyway.

One thing a horse, dog or any pack animal need is stability, knowing where they are in a herd and where everyone else is around them. A horse, uncertain of the heirachy will never be relaxed and happy. A happy horse is one at the bottom of the heap and he knoes it! No responsabilities, the gaffer will sort it out.

[MrDCBags]

Echo your theory Wally but with children as well!!

i work with children excluded from school and I have the best group(I would say that I have trained them!). Consistency down the line.

The kids know the "my word is my bond" refrain now!! It has taken 6 weeks to get them to an acceptable lvel and we still have a long way to go.

The other thing we use with the kids which may work with equines is "catch 'em being good" in other words make a fuss if they are doing desired behaviour!

[Wally]

This is my theory too, can't stand bad manners animals or kids! :D :D

Praise, the SECOND, split second they yeild in the desired direction. When teaching a horse rein back. The second they yeild, praise, then they soon learn that backing up all by themselves is the idea!

Praise and reward for behaving in the appropriate manner without being asked is a good way forwards.

We have worked with similar kids!

[Nik-n-Kia]

I am also the boss mare in Kia and my's relationship. It has taken me a while to get there but it has been worth it. He will follow me without a lead rope most of the time and when I am in his stable he knows that he has to stand at peace and not be silly.

The pony was another matter. She was bargy, bit and kicked out. Eventually I started ti give her a taste of her own medicine and she learned. I was bargy and walked backwards into her kicking out my leg I nipped her and more often tan not ran her off nipping her butt like anotherhorse would do and she learned that I was the boss and not just a plaything or a lesser herd member.

it is amazing how they learn in time wihout the use of violence.

Nikki xxxxx

[ClaireBear_nz]

I wouldn't say I'm the alpha with Sparks. At one point, I was determind to be the alpha mare, and it didn't work for us. I did not gain respect from her from either positive reinforcement (she used to give me these intensely patronising looks whenever I told her she was good) or telling her off when she was naughty ("you bite me, I bite you back, so you bite me back again, so i bite you back harder!") so I gave up. This has to be the worst example of how to train a horse, but I completly ignore heirachy and animal behaviour and I thought of her as a human. It worked, we have a great mutual relationship and I can ask her to do anything with her. However, at times, she will put me in my place, and I have to yield to what shes asking. Sparky just simply does not think of herself as a horse, so a usual equine argument doesn't work. She will be fine as long as you don't antagonise her.

Tally doesn't have much respect for me. He just doesn't have any ideas about boundaries, if I act dominant, he gives me a confused look and asks why I'm acting like a chicken. However, I'm (trying) to set boundaries, and reward him when he does do what I ask. He's never done anything too horrific, he just has temper tantrums when he doesn't get his own way. For the record, he really is 12!

[Wally]

I am having a knotty problem ATM with one mare in particular.

She has never been taught her manners and is utterly convinced she is top dog. I have been kicked 3 times by her in 7 months, more than I have ever been kicked in 30 years!

She now has a foal and is incredibly foal proud, so now is not the time to do anything with her.

But, I have made a promise, that once baby is off her, she and I are going to come to an understanding, I be boss, and any more kicking wil not be tollerated in any way, shape or form,

How we are going to go about this has yet to be determined, but I can see myself getting kicked before the year is out more than once!

[MrDCBags]

Wally you need some of those big shin pads cricketers wear!!!