How to help a rider with limited leg strength do rising trot

[horses4eva888]

I currently lead a girl in her lesson who has little muscle in her legs and cannot walk without support who really wants to learn rising trot.

I've tried holding her leg to kind of be the strength she doesn't have if you get what I mean and she holds onto the saddle but it still seems really difficult for her to clear the saddle so I was wondering if anyone has any tips to help her get it cause I feel her frustration at not being able to presently which is awful to not be able to help. (I tie her reins in a knot at the moment so she doesn't have to worry about them as well)

Thanks xx

[elise]

Personally I would start with a horse that has a lot of suspension in his trot. I would point out that the rising trot doesn't mean standing up in the stirrups. Even just a slight rise above the saddle on the correct diagonal is a rising trot. If you have a bouncier horse you can guide her bouncing into the right diagonal. I'm guessing this might be tough to teach, I know exactly what it should feel like but I can't for the life of me put it into words here!

[Silvia]

To avoid building up false hopes you should check with her physiotherapist if she has the abilities (balance, strenghth, coordination) to learn to rise the trot. I doubt it can be done without at least some leg strength. The physio might be able to help with exercises etc. Try at a halt first. Could somebody sit on the horse with her and show her the right rhythm?
Anyway - make sure she knows that rising the trot is NOT essential for being a good rider. Even able bodied dressage riders always sit the trot in dressage tests - she can see that on TV. :) If she gets good enough to sit the trot and hold the reins she will be able to do more than rising the trot and holding on to the saddle. Good luck with teaching your little rider.

[horses4eva888]

Being that I am not the instructor and only 14 I have little in the way of communications with the physio if she even has one. She told me that she used to know rising trot at her old RS before she left and I have seen her do it a few times but its very difficult for her, you can see in her expression, but she's extremely determined:D

The pony I currently lead her on is such a sweetheart, he hates other horses and most people but put a kid on him and he's a star, and puts up with me running sidewards, backward and letting go of him trying when she loses a stirrup so I can go and get it back and doesn't try anything on so I don't know how easy it would be for me to try her on another pony as he is the best suited to her requirements but I can always see if she wants to try another pony as she is quite attached to Bilko.:)

[Ptaty70]

Maybe a good way of thinking would be for you to imagine 'rising' trot without stirrups. Have you done this yourself in a lesson or otherwise? if so, you will be able to give her your own personal experiences which will make it easier for her. If not, rising without stirrups is more a movement of the bottom from the back to the front of the saddle with a slight lifting of the pelvis when at the front (ie on the 'rise'). Also, for her to think of her knees as where she should 'rise' from, not the foot (i.e. stirrups).

Does this help?? Not sure I have explained well enough:confused: .

[horses4eva888]

Yeah I have done rising trot without stirrups and I do get what you mean but Bilko's trot isn't particuarly "lifting" which could make it harder so I'm not sure how to make it easier except by using another pony but as I've explained I'm not sure how many others I'd trust with her and my antics:p

[alwaysfallingof]

It's a difficult one. It largely depends on why she 'lacks muscles in her leg', and whether it affects any other parts of her - muscle tone, stability etc.

I'd agree that consultation with a physio is the best idea - preferably one of the specialist RDA physios. I've seen them do a very good job with lots of riders.

Does she sit the trot well? One thing you could do is to play around with the speeds of the trot - you may find a particular rhythmn at which she is able to rise. Too slow and there may not be enough upwards push to help her out the saddle. Too quick and she won't be able to get the rhythmn - she'll have to use the horse to help her and so will need to know exactly what speed she's aiming for. The more usual 'up, down, up, down' method of teaching is unlikely to work. She needs to be able to feel it.

Can she stand up in her stirrups at walk?

The main consideration is the weight bearing ability of her legs - if she can't stand unaided then there is very little chance that she will to be able to rise to the trot. If she can stand, even if she can't walk then she may be able to do it.

I teach one rider who for the longest time couldn't do rising trot. He has very weak legs. It wasn't for years - until he'd got a very, very good sitting trot that he was able to learn to rise. He had to know the trot rhythm and feeling very very well to be able to use the muscles that he had to rise out the saddle.

Stabilising her lower legs as you have described will be very useful.

If I think of anything else I'll let you know. Good luck:)

[horses4eva888]

I think the lack of muscle is largely to do with because her legs are twisted so she can't walk unaided and so hasn't developed any muscle. She sits the trot relatively well better if she uses the neck strap to hold onto rather than the saddle. I've not tried asking for her to stand in walk.
In simplistic terms this is her leg position, she seems unable to stretch her leg down and loses her stirrups due to gripping up and her toes pointing down
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n158/horses4eva888/legpos.jpg

[elise]

Another factor for the rising trot is if she's in too much of a chair position she won't be able to get up out of the saddle. The toes down position would probably affect that as well. Some lessons in a bareback pad where she can really benefit from the warmth of the horse to get her legs stretched out might help.

It's so hard for these students, atleast in our lessons, we only get them for 8 weeks at a time, only twice a year, so it's really hard to develop on things when they have to take such a long break. I would love to see what a once or twice a week riding for a year would do for some of our riders.

[horses4eva888]

The only thing with bareback is I'd worry for her stability, she can manage without holding on in walk with a saddle but I'm unsure how she would cope, will suggest it to parent though if he'd consider booking her a private lesson so she can do bareback without the instructor having other things to think about:)

[elise]

You can always add a surcingle if she needs a handle. Vaulting or some of the anti cast rollers work really well.

[horses4eva888]

Good point, I doubt we have any vaulting stuff at my RS no-one does it:( If you attached a D ring to the surcingle would it work?

[elise]

Not sure if a D ring would help or not. This is the type of roller we often use:

http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-30251&bhcd2=1179694734

[D&D]

mmm, this is a hard one, i can tell you what i experienced with my leg and little muscle and feeling if it helps.

when i first started riding i would be in tears after about 15mins with pain, the more i rode the more i built up muscle in leg i dont use walking. i really had to go through the pain barrier every week

tell you little friend not to dispear and one day she will become a little speed merchant. on a hack wallking and trotting is hardest on my leg re pain but tell her that one day she will see that cantering is easier, and jumping is cool and ok to, although we do experience a few slipping off the saddle sideways a few more times than your average rider :) x

i know where my leg is because i feel it from the knee, she will adopt her own comfy position the more she rides. i am at the mo trying to get leg to stay in correct postion (away from comfy position) and it kills, but ill give it a couple more months

and bouncey horse is good if she can relax enough to feel the natural movement of the horse and something sane but forward going so requires little leg (like D) but not sharp or spooky

D has learnt that lifting of back and seat means canter

without knowing more, all things can be possible to her and she'll find the faster paces easier x

her loosing the stirrups may not be all to do with her leg, i thought that was why i kept loosing mine but i dont so much now

the hardest thing she will find in time to come will be not having an outside leg (depending on which rein she is on) with drums my weak leg is his weakest side unfortunately, one he tends to motorbike the corners and ive not found a way to stop grazing my knee yet ;)

tell her to keep persevering and for at least 6months and see how it goes - takes a long time and progress is slower, so slow you dont notice but she hopefully will as she looks back over the months (not the weeks)

you could try (just to give her some confidence) till her muscles build up, put an elastic band round her ankle and round the stirrup - they do snap if she were to fall off - tried and tested, but really i learnt it was a slow process of one being a learner rider and building up muscle

re trotting, like others said you can do it with no stirrups, the more she relaxes also the more she will bounce with the horse - it will be the coming down she will find harder to control (heavy seat till she finds her own way)

let us know how she goes - i have got quite a strong back and arms from crutches etc - she may be the same

[ShariN]

You are kind to try to help her. But she has to learn to crawl before she can walk and so on, so to speak.

And yes,, I know where she is coming from because I too right now have some massive limitations. And I have plans...

You really need to find out who is her phyiscal Therapy person is and talk with them first. That is the best way to build a plan for this little girl.
Also people that are registered to handle handicapped people and use horses to help heal, will know what needs to be done safely to get her to the point she can post.
These are also the folks you need to talk too.

Right now...doing the research and talking with those kinds of folks, are the only way to safely help her with her goal.
I know how much she wants to do this but she has to start at the beginning.
Good luck.

[jerrimouse]

...

[horses4eva888]

I really don't know if she has a physiotherapist as I said before I'm just the leader from what I've seen her dad either carries her or gives her his arms for support, she may have other things to help her but might not bring them to her riding lesson. After reading these replys I think I'm more going to aim to get her to enjoy the lesson (not that she doesn't now) and let her find her balance more before I start trying to help her do rising trot. Does that sound like mroe of a plan?

Thanks everyone for your replies so far they must've taken a lot of thought and consideration:)

xx

[eml]

If she is riding at a school and you are her helper then the instructor will have an idea of what she can do. Personally I do not feel confident to help disabled riders and refer them to our really good nearby RDA group.

I wouldn't be inventing exercises without expert help as you can do more harm than good.

There is no reason if her legs are weak that she should be working on rising trot. You need to ask your instructor, not make your own judgements.

[Wally]

Until the physio has been consulted it's hard to know what to do for the best.

Echo eml.

If she did rising trot in the past and cannot now, there may be real problems and reasons why she cannot due to a deterioration in her condition.

[Horsesaddle]

I just been wondering here how long has this girl been riding for and can i ask her age

I really hope you can help her out does she ever get furshared*sp* about doing some thing wrong?

[horses4eva888]

furshared? She's about 11 and I don't know how long she's been riding but not long I don't think

[Horsesaddle]

Furstated sorry for the spelling misstake before :o

what hieght is the RS pony she rides if you do know maybe try using a

surcingle or let her try vaulting or bareback if she does feel capable

[horses4eva888]

She doesn't get frustrated as such, I've never seen her get angry she's just really keen to learn it. The pony she rides is only about 12.1/2hh. Seeing as she's unable to get on or walk unaided and we don't have vaulting equipment at our yard and don't think it is possible but there is always bareback

[Wally]

It really will all depend upon what the physio prescribes.

[laceyfreckle]

My daughter has poor muscle tone and hypermobility (muscles are long and 'stretched' so have little use or strength) she also has arthiritis. we have found lunge lessons help, (especially without stirrups) we also taught steering (pressure sideays from the leg is easier then standing if muscles are weak) all this helped build and modify the muscles but most importantly my daughter feels like she's improving and getting better and more able. she also struggles to rise to the trot but has told me it helps if she things of trying to get her head into the clouds (!!) and we have tried to teach her that when ponys gait lifts you up then swing your hips rather then try to stand to do your 'rise' (not really explaining well but hope that helps

[8-legged-pony]

Hmm, is this at a riding school, or an RDA centre? If it's at an RDA centre then it might be best to talk to the instructor and see what they suggest as they will have more knowledge about the girls disability, and will hopefully have some ideas of things you can do to help her.

[LMS]

I have to voice my concern here:
You are the leader, therefore your job is to take care of the horse not the rider: that's the sidewalker's job. When you take your attention off the horse onto the rider as you've described: I don't care how lovely the horse is: things happen & the time it takes for a horse to get unsettled by something, well... you all get the picture.

It's nice that you care very much about your rider's frustration: wanting to acheive the post at the trot but... some riders never get to post effectively because of their disability: she will have to trust her instructor's judgement & course of action.

It would help to know what her disability is, but on this forum, we can only offer suggestions. It is up to her instructor & a medical professional such as an OT or PT to write up a lesson outline for her to achieve this long term goal.

At our centre, the riders need to get a good stable seat before they move on to something more difficult.

Again not knowing what her disability is, here are the sequential steps to posting the trot:
- Stable seat & erect spine at the walk
- Stable seat & erect spine at the trot
- Achieve & maintain a stable position in the 2pt at the halt
- Progress to achieving & maintaining the 2pt at the walk up 1 full arena (some riders can only do 1/2 an arena)

At this point you can either progress to the 2pt at the trot or begin posting at the halt.

- Progress to posting at the walk 1 long side, up to 1 full arena
- Achieve rhythm of the rise & sit at the walk
- Progress to posting at the trot.

It is very important that the rider strengthens their core muscles in order to achieve a successfull posting action. For a disabled rider with a weak trunk & legs; successful posting is a very difficult goal to achieve!

As for the sidewalker, I would recommend that he/she offer support to the lower leg. This is done by having the hand furthest away from the rider be positioned & resting in front of the ankle, the hand closest to the rider will rest gently on the hip closest to the SW & offer a nudge to go up. Also this way if the rider looses their balance, the hand is there to offer support to regain balance & sit gently on the horse's back.

Like ShariN stated: she needs to "learn how to crawl before she can walk"

[horses4eva888]

I have to voice my concern here:
You are the leader, therefore your job is to take care of the horse not the rider: that's the sidewalker's job

You see the thing is I am both! There is just me and her actually near the horse so you see I do have to combine the two jobs. Which results in me running sideways in trot as I both steer and hold her leg, hardly ideal but I cope doing both.

The reason I wrote the thread was to see if there were any other things I could do using tack (like neckstraps, d rings etc) but as people replied and I found their advice interesting I decided to let the thread continue as people interpretted it (should have been clearer) Thanks for your advice anyway, its nice to have a staged plan :)

[Wally]

Hmm, to properly look after a person with quite profound disabilities you need a side walker and a leader.

Ruinning sideways whilst leading and looking to the rider is against all rules.

Not something I tollerate in my RDA lessons.

It is made quite clear that the leader is in charge of the horse and the side walker is in charge of the rider, relaying requests to the leader.


you cannot do both,

[eml]

I think this rider is attending a riding school not an RDA centre.

The helper holding the leg of a novice child while leading the pony in a few steps of trot would be normal.

I think the spaces available in RDA groups in Leicestershire tend to go to children in special schools. We are often asked to take children with problems as they cannot get into an RDA group. I personally don't apart from a few borderline Aspergers syndrome sufferers that I know will cope but I imaging some schools will take on pupils who really ought to be going to an RDA group for the expertise in dealing with their limitations.

Just defending horses4eve a bit as I think she is just being an enthusiastic helper.

[LMS]

You see the thing is I am both! There is just me and her actually near the horse so you see I do have to combine the two jobs. Which results in me running sideways in trot as I both steer and hold her leg, hardly ideal but I cope doing both.

The reason I wrote the thread was to see if there were any other things I could do using tack (like neckstraps, d rings etc) but as people replied and I found their advice interesting I decided to let the thread continue as people interpretted it (should have been clearer) Thanks for your advice anyway, its nice to have a staged plan :)

Unfortunatly the position that you've been put in is dangerous not only for the rider but for yourself as well.

A neck strap is a wonderful idea, when you put it on make sure you leave a palm's width between the neck/wither & the strap, this way the rider doesn't have to reach too far (it rests just in front or on the withers) & can grab it easily.

All our saddles are equiped with pommel straps, it's a lot safer for the rider to grab it than the pommel. It's attached to the D rings at the pommel.

Hmm, to properly look after a person with quite profound disabilities you need a side walker and a leader.

Ruinning sideways whilst leading and looking to the rider is against all rules.

Not something I tollerate in my RDA lessons.

It is made quite clear that the leader is in charge of the horse and the side walker is in charge of the rider, relaying requests to the leader.
Totally agree!

you cannot do both,
Yes & no, depends on the capabilities of the rider. But you're right though that both roles cannot be done at exactly the same time, meaning holding on to the lead rope AND looking after the rider is a big no-no. (Like in this situation)

We have riders that need a leader for warm-ups and trot but are ok using the reins for 10-15min where the leader now, not attached to the horse (via a lead rope) assumes the role of the sidewalker.

I think this rider is attending a riding school not an RDA centre.

Just defending horses4eve a bit as I think she is just being an enthusiastic helper.

I think it is quite noble of horses4eva to want to help, I'm not disputing this at all but Wally is correct. "Safety first" is ingrained in all instructors & volunteers. But unfortunatly what you say is also a fact: some riders with disabilities often are enrolled in a regular riding school. But unfortunatly because of the lack of awareness & training in disabilities, accidents can happen & so can unintented mistakes.

So having said all that; horses4eva would you be able to get some training at a RDA facility or from someone who does attend one, so you can understand the needs for disabled riders? I know, easy suggestion to ask but not as easy to follow through with sometimes.

I find that seaking help like you did on this forum was very gutsy & of course a bitter sweet response was unavoidable.

Good luck & be safe!;)

[horses4eva888]

I think we are an RDA establishment as well as a riding school, as this seems to be the reason they came here, we have a mounting ramp thing (for wheelchairs etc) and we used to have an RDA pony that they loaned to us but she was taken back, I've heard from people (completely away from the stables e.g a lady who comes in to clean for us every two weeks) that they used to help there when it was an active RDA establishment and therefore I think the height of our involvement in this area has deminished quite a bit.