feet looking poor, what can I do?

[Jessey]

OK, both my guys feet are looking a bit poor and both are a bit footy on stoney ground - very unlike them.
They are turned out 24/7 but the paddock has no grass, it is just sand and flints - the natural soil round here!
They seem to have reasonable growth of the wall and I run the rasp round in between farrier visits to try and minimise flare and chipping by rolling them (as advised by my farrier). Their frogs seem terrible at the moment, very ragged and quite a few nicks in them and they are very tough, both had thrush which I have just treated and it has now cleared up. On both of them their soles seem a bit thick :confused: like they are not being exfoliated enough as they are on soft ground all the time, they aren't cracking off like normal.

I try to soak their feet regularly, or apply a moisturising cream but this doesn't seem to be enough, the sand just seems to leach the moisture out of them. Would you soak then oil? to try and prevent the moisture being leached out? any other ideas?

I haven't seen the farrier in a while as I am normally at work and YO takes care of it, he isn't due again until 13th June, I have been trying to get hold of him this week but I think he is away. I really want to do something as I am going away with Jess next week to summer camp for 3 days and the trail riding there involves more stoney ground so I want her to be as comfortable as possible - any ideas? I have a parring knife and have taken the bits of dead frog off that I can, should I just scrape at the sole a bit to take the excess off or just condition her over stones for the next week to try and exfoliate them and toughen her feet a bit?

[Bebe]

Right, so they're on soft ground all the time, farrier trimmed with little grazing ? Just want to get this straight in my head first.

If they really are getting as little grass as it sounds then you're unlikely to be looking at straight low grade laminitis, unless you're feeding loads of concentrates (which I suspect not).

So you've either got a trimming problem or it's a case of needing to improve the internal structures of the foot enough that they can handle stones. The excess sole you're seeing could have a number of causes, the most likely being it's not being worn away but given that they're still feeling stones I think this is unlikely. I suspect that the excess sole is being put down to compensate for a lack in other areas, so you need to work out what those areas are and work to improve them.

Can you post pics? They won't tell us what the health of the internal structures are like but we could see the frogs which are often a good indicator and make educated guesses from there (that's all you're ever going to get from photo assessment, it's not possible to do more without seeing the hoof and horse in real life).

I wouldn't soak the hooves if the horses are already on soft ground and I wouldn't use any form of oil either.

The bad news is that if you're going away in a week then it's not enough time to condition the hooves to 3 days of work over stony ground. You're best option is to buy hoofboots and use those.

[Jessey]

Thanks Bebe :D
Yep they get no grass at all, apart from the occasional pickings when out and about, they get adlib hay 24/7 and their feeds are all fibre, no grains at all and they get a general vit/min supplement.
I took Jess out the other day, on stoney ground (very stoney, lumpy and very hard) she was a bit footy, on grass, dirt and roads she was fine. There is no heat in the foot or any sign of digital pulse, I don't think lami is playing any part in the footyness, it did seem a bit worse when the thrush was apparent, but that is mostly cleared up now. The riding next week will mostly be arena work and on good trails, but there are some parts on the trail rides that will involve stoney tracks.
I might be able to get pics later today - if the rain eases up :rolleyes:

The wall has got pretty long (trimmed 5 weeks ago), and I noticed today that a chunk of the wall has broken off at her heel on one side on one foot so the foot balance is well out right now. The sole seems quite soft, but not hugely so, just a little crumbly when I really scrape at it. The farrier is coming first thing tuesday morning now, so he will sort that out and I will have a chat with him about all of it, both horses normally have really good feet, but since we moved them to this yard (were on grass before) they seem to be deteriorating since they have been on the sand so much, also as I have been fitting in with other liveries they have been going 8 weeks between trims rather than the 5-6 I used to stick to. Other people on the yard said the horses feet do suffer a bit on the sand, they get dry and crack, the frogs go all raggedy - most of which I am seeing.

If you had a horse who was on sand 24/7, what management regime would/do you use?

Cheers all :D

[Boffin]

I agree with Bebe avoid oils and soaking etc. Alternating wet and dry can cause almost as much havoc as sand. Sand is one of the worst surfaces for horses, not only is it abrasive but because of its crystaline nature it often packs hard when loaded with a horses weight and has very little "spring" in it to soften impact. Not a great combination.

I was a bit surprised at the Thrush though if its really that dry, Thrush and dryness tend not to be companions. Try having a look at Les Spark's website, well the bit on barefoot anyway. He was UK barefoot enduranceGB champion in 2004 and still rides extensively in competitions. He told me recently he hasn't had a competition veterinary failure due to hoof problems for 2 years so he must be getting something right. He encourages contact and discussion, you might find him helpful on

http://www.fnesaddles.com/Hooves-Barefoot.shtml

[Jessey]

I haven't made it back on in a while, its been manic :rolleyes:
The farrier came and trimmed her feet up, they look a lot better now. We think half the problem is how the weather has been lately, bone dry 1 minute then soaking the next, the sand drys out so quickly there is just no gradual change to it like with grass where the water is held for longer and they get a little dampness daily from dew etc.
However things seem to have got worse, she was a bit footy last week but 100% fine in the arena while we were away - we just stayed clear of the stoney tracks. But tonight she seems to be a tiny bit lame, not sure if its related but her legs, back etc all look fine, no heat/swelling or anything :( there wasn't any heat in her feet and no digital pulse but I put her in tonight with limited hay and will put an emergency call into the farrier and if I can't get him get the vet, just in case. TBH I suspect an absess or something.

Thanks for that link, I will have a read over the weekend.

[Bebe]

If you had a horse who was on sand 24/7, what management regime would/do you use?


Hmmm, to be honest I don't think I'd do anything different as I do now other than I'd try to ensure access to (either loose or in-hand or ridden) hard ground on a daily basis for it's conditioning value.

Is thrush still an issue? If it is then this could explain some of the ouchyness as sand will get into any pockets of infection and can rub the sensitive bits causing inflammation and soreness. I'd use a thrush busting product (I've just got hold of some Net-tex Frog Health which was recommended by a trimmer. I've only used it twice though so can't speak for it myself yet) topically followed by coating the affected frogs in MSM cream or Sudocream. The cream helps to keep sand out of the infected areas.

Hope it's not a bad abcess.

[connieD]

could it be bad bruising from the flints. with the ground being as hard as it is i know several horses that have been coming in with bruised soles, especially if they are footy on stoney ground.

my pony is recovering from lgl. i have been using cornecrescine hoof daily hoof strengthner and its been amazing, her hooves are not chipping and are much stronger, she is no longer footy over stones and bruised like she was.

it keeps them moisturised without letting too much water in when we have these wet/dry periods

[Jessey]

Thanks guys, we decided not to panic over the weekend as she seemed a bit better, the improvement made me think its not an absess now just bruising or thrush playing up, the farrier is coming wednesday morning though.
Thrush is still an issue, everytime we get it cleared up and it flares up again, I think it is where they stand round their hay ring alot - and neither horse makes much effort to move away from it to pee etc :rolleyes:
I have found that NAF Hoof and Sole is great for getting rid of it, normally 3 daily applications clears it up, I just don't want to use it every day as it is meant to be a hardener too. Both their frogs are really raggedey at the moment, I am going to ask the farrier to parr them back as much as poss, hopefully then we can get all the thrush and the sand won't have so many bits to creap into and get stuck in - I'm sure that is also an issue, it can't be comfortable.
This weekend we are going to be building a field shelter and I intend to get rubber mats to go in it, so hopefully they will spend some time out of the sand and also have somewhere dry to go when its wet.
2 other horses on the yard came a bit footy this weekend too, we think it is alot to do with the changing weather, hey ho.
could it be bad bruising from the flints. with the ground being as hard as it is i know several horses that have been coming in with bruised soles, especially if they are footy on stoney ground
It could be, but as our ground is just sand it isn't solid, think of your average sand arena when it is dry and dusty and that is our fields! it is a bit deep and soft underfoot, the flints don't seem to bother them but it could be. I do wonder if alot of it is where they have got used to really soft ground all the time, kind of un-conditioned their feet, once she is a bit more comfortable I will start daily conditioning, which I have already started with Bo as he is much better than her.

[Jessey]

Well the farrier was not much help, had a quick look at Jess and said there was nothing much he could do and to call himin a few weeks if she is still sore and he will put shoes on him. Then he did Bo's feet, all he did was clip his toes off, didn't put a rasp round them or parr the frogs back etc :mad:

So tonight I spoke with an EP, she will be coming to see them in mid July so they have a bit more foot for her to work with, I am feeling pretty positive about that, she seemed to get where I was coming from and hopefully she will be able to help :D

Jess is also now sound again, I have gone back to bringing them in at night to give them a break from the sand and that seems to have helped :D