Hanging Cheek Snaffles

[millie n pride]

Can you tell me about them...

How are they different to normal snaffles?

Thanks :)

[coss]

they have a bit more poll action due to the way they connect to the cheek pieces and reins, so they have a little more "leverage". thats basically the differentce :)

[gypsygold]

They act like a snaffle just having the sides on can help with direction control. They also hang in the mouth rather than rest on the bars - supposedly makes it more still in the mouth.

They dont actually create poll pressure because to do this the bars would have to hang below the mouthpiece (as in gag type bits). As the reins is taken up it slides around the bit rings and the top where the cheekpieces attach to the bit tend to move backward and forward a bit but don't create downward poll pressure. A ver common misconception but very easy to see when watched in use.

It is the baucher which is a very similar bit which will create some poll pressure but it is the hanging cheek you will see nearly 100% of the time. There is an attempt at differentiatng betweeen te two on this page

http://www.mindspring.com/~janl2/reference.html

[gypsygold]

This page probably desribes it better.(halfway down)

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php

Baucher/hanging cheek seems to be used for the same bit now but the design now doesnt create poll pressure though apparantly once did due to the position of the mouthpiece.

[suneanarab]

i'm not sure that people are on the same wave length here.

a but that has piece that reach up or down the face or both is called a fulmer (or full cheek) this bit is used for directional help and has no poll pressure. a bit that has an arm from the main ring upwards to attach to the cheek piece is a baucher (or hanging cheek as alot of people call it) this bit does give poll pressure. anyone who thinks it doesn't should try the following; put a finger under the headpiece and have a rider enage the rein. for anyone who thinks a bit has no action on the bars; put your fingers under the bit on the bars and again let the rider engage that reins.

i have to do that for every bit i fit so i know that this happens. the indipendent side action of the comfort mouth baucher can give even more pressure than a plain mouth piece.

[gypsygold]

I am talking of baucher or hanging cheek which I still insist does not apply poll pressure. I have in been closely watching one in use today and yes even put my finger under the headpiece and I still stand by it creating no poll pressure. The eye where the cheek pieces attach move backware and forward slightly but at no time downward which it would need to do to create poll pressure. My sons horse abides any bit which creates poll pressure and yet works well in this bit.

[MrDCBags]

Oh I was just looking at bits as my horse has trashed one on a door fortunately he is ok! However I came across this which conflicts with you GG.

Now very confused!

http://www.shop4bits.com/item--8029B-Waterford-Baucher-15mm--8029b.html

[gypsygold]

Yep you will find most saddlery shops and many other sources of information will disagree but I think they all just follow each other.

I still from experience and use of this bit find it does not create p[oll pressure and go with the sustainable dressage page I posted.

I have seen this bit being used on a strong pony in the belief the creation of poll pressure would help all that happened is that as the reins were pulled the cheekpieces actually went slack thus totally unable to apply poll pressure.

Please have a look at this bit in actual use and mak up your own mind.

[gypsygold]

MrDCBags

sorry my last reply to you was rather rushed as my dinner was ready:).

The link you post shows the hanging cheek both 'at rest' and 'in use'.

If you look at the two picture you will see that the top eye, where the cheekpices has attached has certainly moved but has only moved forward not downward at all, this amount of movement is not going to create poll pressure. One thing this picture does not show is how the cheekpiece would move around the eye slightly thus minimising the effect of movement of the bit even further.

If you watch the bit in action the cheeks do certainly move backward and forward slightly but this does not create downward pressure neccesary for poll pressure.

If the reins are taken up even stronger the bit is puled up high into the corners and the cheekpieces will even be seen to go loose. Any chance of poll pressure completely removed.

I know a great many peole are going to disagree with me on this one which is fine, this is just my opinion through experience and use of this bit.

[MrDCBags]

No worries- food v important!!!

Thanks for info gg :-)

[gypsygold]

suneanarab - are you saying the fulmer and full cheek bits are the same? I thinkI may have to disagree further;). In the nicest possible way of course.



a but that has piece that reach up or down the face or both is called a fulmer (or full cheek) this bit is used for directional help and has no poll pressure.

[Styric]

The neue schule image is inaccurate. When the bit tilts, the cheekpieces slide along the ring since it is not an elongated oval shape (which encourages the cheekpieces to stay in the same place on the ring and then causes poll pressure). When the cheek pieces slide, they are not pulled down and no poll pressure is given.

GG is right when sometimes they even go slack.

[suneanarab]

actually the full cheek and the fulmer are the same thing. i think you will find this is stated in any bit book and i even had a look on the link you posted and it's the same there too:).

as for poll pressure, i'm sure if you speak to heather from neue schule she will set you straight about her bits and exactly what they do. as she designed the bits to do certain things i think she is the best expert to ask about it. if the bit is used correctly it does have a poll action, and i should know i've tested it many times as it's one of my best selling bits.

i must also point out that my stallion reacts to one exactly the same way as a hackamore

[suneanarab]

sorry i had to post that quickly before the comp chucked me off.

anyway as was saying. my stallion reacts in exactly the same way with this bit as a hackamore, why? well coz he hates poll pressure! there is no other reason than that i'm affraid.

there are many of us who all say the same, i'm sure so many of us who have studied for our trade can't all be wrong?

[Mossy]

actually the full cheek and the fulmer are the same thing. i think you will find this is stated in any bit book and i even had a look on the link you posted and it's the same there too:).

as for poll pressure, i'm sure if you speak to heather from neue schule she will set you straight about her bits and exactly what they do. as she designed the bits to do certain things i think she is the best expert to ask about it. if the bit is used correctly it does have a poll action, and i should know i've tested it many times as it's one of my best selling bits.

i must also point out that my stallion reacts to one exactly the same way as a hackamore
A full cheek has eggbutt rings fixed to the cheek pieces. A true fulmer has the reins attached to loose rings which are attached to the cheks by short links.

[suneanarab]

sorry but that really makes little difference to the name, for many years they have been called the same thing rather like the baucher being a hanging cheek. when people ask for them it's like asking for a french link snaffle with either an eggbutt or loosering. they are the same thing with a different ring. trying to split hairs about the name just confuses people. when i'm asked for them by what ever name i always ask what ring they want just as i would any other bit.

[ClaireBear_nz]

Regardless of the poll pressure debate, my pony went very nicely in the hanging cheek snaffle. Instead of resting on the bars, it acts on the lips, or some technical explanation that I've forgotten. Something about when pressure is applied, the bit lifts off the bars?

She is really sensitive to pressure, and stuck her nose in the air in pretty much everything. I had no brakes, more because she just ran away from everything from hackamores/bitless bridles, to pelhams/kimblewicks etc. The hanging cheek helped her to soften in front, and she went from getting 2's in dressage ("No walk shown, pony appears to be cantering sideways") to getting 6/7/8!

[suneanarab]

claire. the purpose is to stop the bit crushing the tongue against the bars of the mouth. it does still act on the bars to an extent, just differently to other snaffles. it's often the case with single links and plates that they break in the wrong place and this squashs the poor tongue and make the horse put the head up to get the tongue free. you will also find that horses will snatch the rein to do the same thing. they also can't swallow if the tongue is pinned which some bits do.

[Styric]

Actually, yes I am saying many of those to whom horses are a trade are wrong. Doing it for a living doesn't make you less or more likely to get things wrong.

In this case, the bit is very commonly misunderstood as is noted by several OTHER professionals to whom selling gear and/or using it is their trade as well.

[ClaireBear_nz]

claire. the purpose is to stop the bit crushing the tongue against the bars of the mouth. it does still act on the bars to an extent, just differently to other snaffles. it's often the case with single links and plates that they break in the wrong place and this squashs the poor tongue and make the horse put the head up to get the tongue free. you will also find that horses will snatch the rein to do the same thing. they also can't swallow if the tongue is pinned which some bits do.

I knew it was something to do with the bars, but I've had the bit for nearly 2 years, so all my research was back then!

She does have a relatively big tongue (I think? I've never really compared it) but it seems relatively fleshy. She also is just an odd shape, very long bag with little tiny legs, and a long neck...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/ClaireBear_nz/100_2203.jpg

The hanging cheek was a huge step forward in our schooling, I don't know how else we would've gotten to where we are.

[suneanarab]

i suppose as with alot of other things we will have to agree to disagree. i have to say though that as a nh trainer i am just as fussy about bitting as anything else and have done loads of studying and research with top designers, fitters, and so on. so far i haven't met anyone with the same veiws as yourself till now.

so if no poll pressure is given by the baucher you must come to england and tell my stallion this coz he (and others i may add) says different. it doesn't matter what people think it may or maynot do, the horse tells it exactly how it is and i tend to listen to then an awfull lot more.

got to go back to moz

[Styric]

And for me, several horses (including one mare I'm riding now) HATE poll pressure and like this bit.

I'm not a name dropper or a horn blower, I just go by what works, why and if my horse likes it.

That and there are 3-4 on this board with the same views, including GG. Both of my trainers also agreed with me and they are equally fussy about bitting.

The other thing is being a largely western culture here, curb bits are a norm. They use the mouthpiece as a pivot point, inducing poll pressure. That combined with the rein sliding along a circular ring rather than 'catching' give negligable (if you're really reefing on the bit) to no poll pressure.

[gypsygold]

Suneanarab -How do you know I'm not in the same trade as you???????
I have a depth of experience and research involving the history and types of bits in use today.


The baucher was I believe designed by a Mr Baucher - if my memory serves me correctly. The mouthpiece was high up on the bit sowhen the rein was taken up pressure was applied slightly to the poll due to the mouthpiece being much higher up than where the rein attached.

The hanging cheek is similar so similar in fact that the name baucher/hanging cheek is often used. However the real baucher is not seen but the 'new' hanging cheek has taken with it the label of being a poll pressure bit because it looks so similar to the poll pressure baucher bit.
Anyway the hanging cheek has its mouthpiece set much in the same plane as the rein attachmnt therefore removing the action of poll pressure. The original baucher was not like this - it provided poll pressure the modern hanging cheek does not.


As far as a fullcheek bit and a fulmer they are in fact very different bits. I am partiularly suprised you say this is spliting hairs as to think this means you must also feel that to differentiate between a loosering snaffe and a eggbutt snaffle is also splitting hairs??????

[gypsygold]

actually the full cheek and the fulmer are the same thing. i think you will find this is stated in any bit book and i even had a look on the link you posted and it's the same there too:).



No it isnt.
The link I posted shows a fulmer on the left and a fullcheek on the right? Can you not see how the two are different in the pictures and in use?

[chev]

A fulmer is not the same as a full cheek snaffle. The long pieces on the fulmer are part of the mouthpiece; it then has loose rings outside the cheeks. The cheeks should be held in place by keepers which attach to a small groove at the top of the bit's cheek piece and onto the leather cheek of the bridle.

A full cheek snaffle has the cheeks as part of the cheekpiece; a sort of eggbutt style join.

That has to be the worst description of bits ever, but I hope you get what I mean! The link to the sustainable dressage site shows both fulmer and full cheek snaffles. It doesn't differentiate between the two, but look at the bit on the left (that is a Fulmer) and compare the cheekpieces to the one on the right - that is a full cheek.

[Wally]

Agree with Chev, and very well put I thought!

[gypsygold]

That was a fine description chev. :)

[Stella2]

?Thanks to Chev's explanation, I know understand the fulmer, full cheek bits.

As someone who hasn't formally studied bitting, I am now confused about about the Baucher/Hanging Cheek! My mare likes the Neue Shule Baucher or is it a HC ? :confused:

[gypsygold]

Looking at the pictures I would def. say hanging cheek have a play with it there seem to be a few different ones,so not sure what yours is like. see what happens when you use the reins. Put your finger under the headpiece when the reins are used (you probably need two people for this bit:D)

[Iron Maiden]

I used to ride a loan mare in a hanging cheek & the cheek pieces would go saggy when I pulled the rein hard (unfortunately this was something I had to do rather a lot at first!). Trying to apply a bit of physics to it, without leverage on the bit you won't get poll pressure, and in order to create leverage the rein & the bit need to be on different planes - as you get with reins attached to the lower rings on a Dutch gag. Using a hanging cheek, the rein can move around the bit ring so it's in line with the bit when you pull the rein - path of least resistance for the force. So, using my (flawed?) logic, there ought to be no leverage on the cheek when you pull the rein because you are pulling back directly on the bit, not at an angle to it. Only way to tell for sure would be to use some sort of pressure gauge under the headpiece. Or maybe I'll ask my dad, he's a retired mechanical engineer & is dead good at this stuff!

[gypsygold]

Iron maiden - you explained that so well:D.

My husband is a an engineer and very 'applied maths' type of guy- and a rider which helps. That is basically what he said with lots of lovely diagrams but I just couldnt quite translate it all to make sense, but you did so well.

A lot of descriptions of the hanging cheek say it applies pressure to the poll because the bit extends 'above' the mouthpiece but for it to apply poll pressure the bit needs to extend 'below' the mouthpiece and have some sort of mechanism/design to prevent the reins sliding in line with the mouth piece.

Reins in line or above the mouthpiece are not going to apply poll pressure due to no leverage/pivot point.

[coss]

Reins in line or above the mouthpiece are not going to apply poll pressure due to no leverage/pivot point.

so is that saying that if the horse has its head in the air there will be leverage?

[gypsygold]

No, I was referring to when the horse has its head below horizontal:D.
Wherever the horse has its head the rein still attaches to the bit in the same place and so there still isnt a pivot point.

If the horse puts its head horizontal or above as with any snaffle the bit will be pulled into the corners of the mouth and the cheekpieces will go slack.

[eml]

Despite the fact I am a mathematician and therefore analyse everything I can't help feeling you are all missing the point that if it works for your horse then use it!

I personally without doing analysis feel more in control in a hanging mouth than a simple snaffle. Horse is 17.3 and yes I think I know the theory but I do know the practical feel is that a simple snaffle does not work on a hack or jumping

[Styric]

I used to ride a loan mare in a hanging cheek & the cheek pieces would go saggy when I pulled the rein hard (unfortunately this was something I had to do rather a lot at first!). Trying to apply a bit of physics to it, without leverage on the bit you won't get poll pressure, and in order to create leverage the rein & the bit need to be on different planes - as you get with reins attached to the lower rings on a Dutch gag. Using a hanging cheek, the rein can move around the bit ring so it's in line with the bit when you pull the rein - path of least resistance for the force. So, using my (flawed?) logic, there ought to be no leverage on the cheek when you pull the rein because you are pulling back directly on the bit, not at an angle to it. Only way to tell for sure would be to use some sort of pressure gauge under the headpiece. Or maybe I'll ask my dad, he's a retired mechanical engineer & is dead good at this stuff!


What I have been trying to say but much clearer and succinctly!!

[suneanarab]

what i meant about splitting hairs is that when a customer asks for a full cheek or a fulmer they often don't know what they are asking for and so they are offered a loose ring of an eggbutt.

gg in never said that you weren't in the same trade as me did i? i only said that as so many of us are of the same opinion, and that it differs to yours doesn't make us all wrong.

yes i do know the different actions between a loose ring and an eggbutt, so many people don't and this is why i ask why they want that type of ring. or suggest that they need something different. yes i know that being in the trade doesn't mean you know what you are talking about, but then there are plenty of experts who differ in opinion on the same subjects. i have personal experiance of a lady who has been in the saddlery trade near to me for many years. i have also had to sort out horses who have come to me with problems caused by ill fitting saddles from her as well as bitting problems.

as i take on board what i'm told by everyone, your differences of opinion are noted and i will discuss this with other people and see what results come of it. however, as i also said i listen to the horse as they tell the truth and if so many react to a bit as though it gives poll pressure it has to be so. i never said that my stallion hates poll pressure, i said he reacts to the baucher the same way as he does the hackamore. he goes very well in a short shank mullen pelham for showing as he hasn't got the room for a double. but again it has to be said that if you use the bottom rein on this he over bends and twists the head. this is exactly what he does in the hackamore and the baucher.

i use him to test all bits on so that i have a good feel of what they do. he's great for this and since i've had him from 18months, backed and trained him to never being unplaced in a ridden ring, competed in dressage, show jumping and endurance with him i know him inside out. therefore i also know he would not act like he does if there wasn't some sort of poll pressure from the bit. just because one person thinks it doesn't act a certain way doesn't mean that this isn't so. i have plenty of horses who so this. and just because a horse hate the action given by one bit doesn't mean it won't accept it from another.

as to the link i do appologise i have since looked at it on a different computor where the pictures are much clearer. on the one i had been using it's very temproemntal about showing pictures at all.

[chev]

i never said that my stallion hates poll pressure,

Erm... yes, you did say exactly that;

anyway as was saying. my stallion reacts in exactly the same way with this bit as a hackamore, why? well coz he hates poll pressure! there is no other reason than that i'm affraid.

[suneanarab]

sorry it does read like that, but then i never checked it as i assumed i had written it as intended, it should have had 'that', and not 'the' in it:o. as said he doesn't hate all poll pressure, he goes perfectly well in a mullen pelham (and i did say that:)) he also goes well in some spanish curbs, but there is some poll action that he just doesn't like. i don't know why that happens i just know that it does.

after what was said about engineers i decided to ask my friend about this. she is a medical engineer so has a degree in both mechanical engineering as well as medicine. she looked at the bit itself, then whilst in odin (she is also a horse woman) and compared his reaction to the baucher as well as the hackamore. she also put her finger under the head stall, compared it to different bits with the same mouth piece and concluded that it does have the slight poll pressure i said it does. her words were ' i can feel it so i don't see why others can't. even if it wasn't designed for poll pressure in itself there is no denighing that odin reacts as though it does give poll pressure. i suppose it depends on the sensitivity of the horse. it certainly doesn't give the same amount of pressure as a hackamore or that of a bit with a fixed rein ring, but the fact that the horse reacts to it prooves the point if nothing else.'

but i'm sure there will still be someone who will disagree with her.

[gypsygold]

There most certainly will be. After having this discussion a few friends and acquaintances at the yard (many who also believed that the hanging cheek gave poll pressure) decided to have a play last night.

So I tacked up my horse in his hanging cheek put my daughter on top and had a play. Poor horse wondered why everyone got so fascinated with his poll area all of a sudden:p.

Any way as soon as pressure was taken up the rein slid around the bit ring and the cheek piece slid around the top eye, although the top of the bit moved forward and back slightly it stayed in line with the cavesson noseband and at no time did it move downward to provide any poll pressure. Further take up of the rein caused the cheeks to become loose.

Have to say I have converted quite a few people (all present) to my way of thinking about the hanging snaffle as not one of about 8 of us felt pressure under the headpiece - even tried it with our eyes shut.

Must annoying things I even got pictures on my phone and cant get my phone to talk to the computer:mad:

In all it is clear that we are not all going to agree here which is fine but a couple of points to add. If the hanging cheek provides poll pressure -

Why is it classified (not just called) as a snaffle if it provides more than direct action? (Bit definitions)

Also why is the hanging snaffle allowed in dressage when no other single bit that provides poll pressure is?
( I am happy to stand corrected on this one, as I'm not a dressage diva.)

I would say that anyone who wants to use a bit with a specific action try and find someone with one and try for yourself - would love to here back from anyone and there findings with the bit in question here. Whether we are mechanics, physicists, mathematicians or whatever we are I think we are all capable of pulling on the reins and seeing what happens I think:rolleyes:

I have to say in response to suneanarab I really cannot see how you got this bit to cause poll pressure without physically getting hold of the cheeks and twisting them severely. If tested with normal range of rein use it did not cause any poll pressure at all.

I am sure we will have to agree to diagree on this one, which I'm happy to do. Everyone is I'm sure capable of making there own decisions through our posts and their own use of the bit in question.

[millie n pride]

Thanks for the help everyone, although i am still a bit confused with all the different opinions on the actions of the bit!
I think i'll just give it a go and see if Pride likes it :)

[jowyles]

hanging cheeks DO NOT create poll pressure full stop end of, if you dont believe me put one on put your finger under the headpiece and get someone to pull the reins. Theres is no leverage effect as the rein is in the same place as the bit in the mouth, like a snaffle ring of a dutch gag. The dutch gag works because it can pivot around the bit.

[Laura+Phantom]

I agree, hanging cheeks do not create poll pressure as often stated. I used to think it did, until someone on here convinced me otherwise a while back (sorry can't remember who :o) Phantom goes well in one because he has a small mouth, large fleshy tongue and high tushes (canine teeth). This bit, in a french link mouthpiece, sits nicely off his tongue, off his tushes, and is quite still in his mouth. He loves it, I don't know why I have gone back to a lozenge snaffle actually...

If you look at this picture of him being gobby, the cheekpiece hasn't moved, only the eye of the bit has...maybe now it is acting on the bars?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/LAUZ45/Phantom/baucher.jpg

and there is definately a difference between a fulmer and full cheek snaffle.

[suneanarab]

as i've said we will have to agree to disagree! i did say this right at the start. i have not applied hard pressure on the bit as this is something i would never do. there are plenty of experts who agree with me and i've spoken to quite a few personally this week.

as i've also said, if the horse tells me this is what is going on i will listen to that more than any person. i also said that i had taken on board what everone else had said.

as there seems to be no point in continuing this discussion further if all we can do is agree to disagree.

as for pictures, any that have been posted i can not see. unless they are from private websites this comp won't show them and even the ones it does show arn't always clear.