Thorowgood VS Wintec

[Joyscarer]

I have been thinking about swapping to a Thorowgood saddle recently as although I love my Wintec Cair VSD it doesn't fit Joy as well as it should which she is telling me by pulling faces when I go to tack her up.

I'm not riding her at the moment as a consequence and have a saddler coming out on 2nd July but wondered if the Thorowgood might sit a bit flatter on Joy at the back. I can slide my hand between her back and the saddle under the cantle which I couldn't when I first bought it for her as it fitted perfectly. I have a medium/wide gullet fitted and don't want to put in a smaller one that pinches at the front for the sake of making the back sit down on her better :confused:

My much more experienced friend expressed surprise that I felt a new saddle would be in order and felt that a Wintec should fit any horse given the adjustable gullet system. As such I resisted my instincts about changing it and getting a saddle fitter in and tried having a front riser pad in at her suggestion. I felt like I was perched on top and not a part of Joy when riding which didn't help our balance issues or my confidence although it was then sitting correctly at the back for a while and Joy seemed comfortable. However as Joy has muscled up at the front the front riser pad made the pommel sit higher than the cantle but the pads under the cantle don't sit down on her back whuch allows the saddle to move from side to side at the back.

I love the Wintec I have and wondered whether the Cair VSD could be altered or whether to just think about buying another make of saddle like the Thorowgood?

[Jane.A]

Have you tried the medium gullet? Do you have a gullet measure? Which girth straps are you using? It might be that you need to use the second and third girth strap to hold the back down almost like a point strap if you think she still needs the medium wide gullet in front. Just a thought.

[Joyscarer]

I'm not going to put the medium gullet in because it would pinch the withers and she measures at a medium wide.

That's a good idea about using the second and third straps and something I hadn't considered. Given that the gap is so big I don't think this would be enough to take up the gap unfortunately.

I'll see what the saddle fitter has to say about things.

Do you know if the Wintec cairs can be altered? I'd like to go down the route if it will suit Joy because I like the saddle and the straighter cut gives her shoulder more clearance. I just don't want things to continue to get worse :(

[JustJas]

I have had both- I prefer Wintec to ride in but husband prefers Thorowgood. Sadly neither fit my arab!

[puzzles]

i love them both, but wintec eases pressure so wins my vote!

[joey_olop]

I have both-Wintec for Blackie & Throwgood for Flair-Bear.

I prefer the Wintec as the gullet change system is very handy-Dont really understand the fish things!! Although I prefer the look of the throwgood & its much more comfy than Blackies Wintec :)

[MelanieD]

It sounds like the saddle is too curved for her back. If only slightly then you might be able to get away with adding some flocking, I think you can have some flocking in with CAIR, or extra padding under the saddle. If its quite bad then she shape of the tree is just wrong for the horse and there's nothing you can do apart from get a new saddle. The changeable gullet only adjusts the width of the front of the saddle, if the shape of the tree is wrong being able to change the gullet can't fix it.

[Joyscarer]

It sounds like the saddle is too curved for her back. If only slightly then you might be able to get away with adding some flocking, I think you can have some flocking in with CAIR, or extra padding under the saddle. If its quite bad then she shape of the tree is just wrong for the horse and there's nothing you can do apart from get a new saddle. The changeable gullet only adjusts the width of the front of the saddle, if the shape of the tree is wrong being able to change the gullet can't fix it.

Thank you. That's exactly what I thought :)

I am resigning myself to having to buy a new saddle. If the saddler can alter the Wintec VSD to suit Joy then that's a bonus and I'll stick with that and look at getting something a bit posher once Joy has stopped growing. I hope it can be altered as money is a bit tight at the mo although IMHO the saddle HAS to be right for the horse so needs must :)

[Shadowlark]

The wintec is quite well known for being more rockered/banana shaped and the Thorowgood flatter - so I suspect you are on to something :)

I like the Thorowgood more myself, both for appearance and for ridding in. They are also more likely to fit our more flat backed NA breeds.

[CurlyWurlyRach]

i have a wintec which i love but my TBx is quitge narrow so the curve isnt really a problem for me. im happy with it :) its hard to get my leg under me in but thats improving with practise.

[mu0ljk]

The wintec is quite well known for being more rockered/banana shaped and the Thorowgood flatter - so I suspect you are on to something :)

I like the Thorowgood more myself, both for appearance and for ridding in. They are also more likely to fit our more flat backed NA breeds.

When the saddle fitter came to fit one for Dylan, the thorowgood was the one that fitted because it was flatter than the wintec.

I like the thorowgoods personally too and I think they are very smart to look at too.

[Joyscarer]

I can't wait until the saddler has been. This will be a first for me and £40 for peace of mind is cheap. I'll let you know what he says :D




...I'll be peeved if all it needs is a change of gullet which I have already done one from skinny wintter weight to fatty summy weight. I don't think it is going to be that simple though in which case I'll have a very smart VSD up for sale to finance the new one :rolleyes:

[puzzles]

good luck - let's hope it goes well!

:-)

[Chip]

Personally I would recommend the Thorowgood, they are generally a better shape especially for a situation like yours, where the back of the saddle is off the horses back. Thorowgood, in my experience, are also better made. The fish system is very easy to use.
Horses for courses though.:rolleyes:

[Joyscarer]

Well I now have a saddle that fits my horse :D

When I set up the appointment I stated that I thought Joy would need a new saddle as I didn't think my VSD Wintec could be made to fit her at the back as she has withers and a very flat back. I also mentioned the banana shaped tree opinions I see posted on NR.

My saddler makes his own made to measure saddles and could have had a sale if he had wanted to but took one look and said that alterations to the saddle would make things right and there was no need for a new one. :D

It turned out that one of the front panels was badly compressed, it was obvious when he pointed it out :o. Actually my friend had him take a look at her Wintec 500 cair that was prone to slipping and exactly the same thing had happened there. Easy to spot when you know what you are looking for. My saddler said that despite the marketing he would go for a flocked saddle every time because they are easy to maintain and alter. Shame they don't do the VSD in a flocked.

At least the gullet I had put in was the right size for Joy.

He said that a lot of the wintecs bad press was because they are marketed as being easilly altered by the layman. Whilst that's true the layman then either choses the wrong gullet or fails to look at the fit of the rest of the saddle which could be wrong as they mistakenly believe as I did that the rest of it couldn't be altered or even worse that changing the gullet is going to be enough. The result is that the Wintec gets a bad name rather than people realising that having a wintec still requires a saddler to check the fit of the other panels. Wintec have made a rod for their own backs due to the marketing tecniques they employ regarding the gullet system.

Also I thought that the panels on a cair couldn't be altered but melanied was right and I was proved wrong. The saddler added some flocking and then tried it again on Joy. The difference was amazing.

I took Joy in the school to try it out and immedately felt more at home. Joy behaved like a lamb despite the fact that she hadn't been ridden for 3 weeks and also that I haven't been in the school with her for months due to balance/confidence issues. I was pertified to start with but soon got into it.

We even trotted some 10m circles and the saddle was very stable. Joy was relaxed and calm and the upward and downwards transitions were much improved. Having completed my test and the saddler being happy he then pointed out that I hadn't rechecked my girth after starting to ride ( I have to do the girth in stages because Joy breathes out!) and that despite having a fairly loose girth I had still felt balanced and stable hense forgetting to tighten it again.

I will actually now have the confidence to take Joy in the school myself now as some of the fear has gone as I realise that the reason I couldn't ride my own horse as well as others horses was down to saddle fit.

I feel awful that I didn't get the saddle fitter in much sooner as my instincts told me but at least things are better now. The good news is that he said given how well Joy went in the school and how relaxed she was he didn't think I should bother getting the back lady out so I haven't ruined her back. I'll researve judgement but I think he's right because of how well she freeschools and lunges :D

The next few weeks will show just how much of our transition problems, cantering, straightness and balance issues was due to the saddle. I know that Joy has balance issues even without my fat weight on her because of how she goes on the lunge.

It's going to be weird being able to return to working in the school again.

£40 was little to pay for peace of mind even if there hadn't needed to be any alterations, but given that this included the alterations and the change in Joy's way of going it was priceless :D

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond.

[CurlyWurlyRach]

thats great :)
i agree that its a small price to pay for peace of mind - i wasnt so lucky and needed a new saddle but it was worth it.

[Monty]

I have a Wintec Dressage Pro on Charlie, and the problem sounds almost identical. The front is a little low with an extra wide gullet, but not touching him, or anywhere near doing. The back is riding up and down as he's ridden.

I've tried the wide gullet, and it just rocks like a banana, or a see saw. He's definitely uncomfortable with the extra wide gullet, but I did even let anyone get on board with the side gullet...it looked bad enough with it just strapped onto his back. This is a flocked saddle, and I have had it about eight years or so. Tried it with a front riser, and like Joy's it looked perched....it looked awful.

What sort of horse is Joy?? And what sort of back would you say she has??

[Joyscarer]

Hi Monty :)

Joy is a Welsh Sec D with almost a table top back but with withers :D

I found it weird that both the wintec cairs had the same problem of a compressed front pannel. Once it had been pointed out you could see one was hollow compared to the other and ond felt springy and the other flatter.

I went for a hack today. I don't know if you know but I have been having real confidence issues of late. I hadn't ridden her in the school for ages and was paying someone to school her 3 times a week for me. I also was petrefied of cantering when out hacking and had to hang on for grim death letting Joy just follow the others. I had no control because a froze, gripped and perched.

Well today I had to let the stirups down 1 hole and will probably have to let them down another hole too!

I managed to do the best sitting trot ever on her and her ears were forward and alert so she obviously thought so too :D

I said to my hacking partners that I wondered how much difference to our canter the saddle would make so when we reached the private lane our yard is off we all did a short and choppy canter. It would have been better if we hadn't have had a lazy cob in front slowing us up. But the thing was that a choppy canter would have been my worst nightmare before because of an ill defined downward transition. This time however I had no problem simply going into 2 point to free Joy up. At no time did I even thinking of hanging on to the balance strap.

The newly referbed saddle combined with my lessons at the riding school has given me back my confidence :D

My trainer is coming tomorrow and I am going to suggest that instead of schooling Joy she trains me to train Joy. This is a big leap forward because not only does it mean going back in the school but also that I might consider myself good enough to not balls Joy up completely :p

[Joyscarer]

I forgot to ask, how did your saddle fitting go?