Sitting the Trot

[wanabe]

Someone has posted on Wikipedia the best article I've seen on sitting the trot. (I mean, it may be all wrong but they sure sound like they know what they're talking about!) :)

The Trot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trot_%28horse_gait%29#Riding_the_trot)

You have to do a find on "Learning to Sit" to get to the relevant section.

What I found particularly interesting is this:

The final result of the sitting trot is that one hip moves forward and down as the other comes up and back. A good visualization technique is to think about your seat bones as pedalling a bicycle backwards: [they] have a circular movement, one going forward and dropping deeper as the other goes back and upward. It may also be helpful to focus on the forward-back and side-to-side motion of the hips as the horse walks. At the walk, the rider's hips will move forward-back twice each stride, and side-to-side twice each stride. However, the side-to-side movement is generally less noticeable at the walk than trot.



That means that what I've been trying is only half right. I've been moving the right parts, but backwards (like riding a bicycle forward). I can't wait to try this out Tuesday. :cool:

[dilaika]

huh...interesting. I found it funny that I was thinking "wow, I was only taught to go back and forth" - and then the article said that in certain areas that is what is taught, specifically the american hunt seat scene (guess what I do?) lol

[Bay Mare]

But it doesn't say much at all about absorbing the movement through your back! What it does say is:

There will be a slight movement of the lower back/belly when the sitting trot is performed correctly, but it should not be extravagant

and whilst the movement isn't 'extravagant', it isn't 'slight' either as that suggests that you try not to flex your back which is incorrect and will cause the head to nod and body to undulate.


Look at the video of the sitting trot at the top of the page ... not exactly a good example! It actually looks like she IS pedalling a bike :eek:


The rising trot advice (rising up and down) is incorrect too!

In the rising trot, the rider makes an up and down movement each stride, going up on beat one, and down on beat two

and on diagonals:

The rider should try to check for the correct diagonal by a quick glance down, or by using her peripheral vision. She should not stare down at the shoulders for several strides, as this unbalances her on the horse, prevents her from seeing what is up ahead, and looks unattractive. Eventually, the rider should learn to feel what diagonal she is on, rather than having to look. Developing this feel may take months

If you're taught correctly what you should be feeling it won't take months at all! Once you've been shown how it makes it much, much easier. Unfortunately a lot of teachers don't teach you what you should be feeling which is why diagonals are such an issue for a lot of people.

I rather suspect that the author has read about the correct method of absorbing the movement but hasn't completely understood the full picture! It sounds remarkably similar to something that I've read elsewhere which IS correct.

[wanabe]

What's wrong with her rising trot advice? The trot is a 2-beat gait and you do rise on one beat and lower on the other beat. :confused:

[Skyhuntress]

Actually Bay Mare, I find the article quite helpful if you're looking at it from a beginners point of view. The advice is right on for learning a sitting trot (in terms of a big moving horse is difficult, to move your hips laterally and longitudinally) and while the movement of the back should be present, it definitely shouldn't be extravagent whatsoever.

(although I do agree that the video isn't a prime example, its coming because she's raising her knees, but her hip are actually following the movement very nicely)

This was in particular dead on :
must re-learn it when they start to ride a horse with bigger or more extravagant movement ;) My sitting trot was golden until I got Limerick, who has an 11 ft canter stride if extended. Now its a question of relearning many things in order to be able to sit him properly ;) and I find myself having to go back to basics with him.


As for the rising trot, I have yet to find a beginner who is taught with feel first before looking. People are visual learners before anything else. They need to SEE a diagonal and SEE a canter lead before understanding how it corresponds to feel. I don't think it takes months, but it is tricky for some to be able to coordinate their bodies in such as way as to correspond with the beats

[Keket]

As for the rising trot, I have yet to find a beginner who is taught with feel first before looking. People are visual learners before anything else. They need to SEE a diagonal and SEE a canter lead before understanding how it corresponds to feel. I don't think it takes months, but it is tricky for some to be able to coordinate their bodies in such as way as to correspond with the beats

Ooh, ooh! I was! I was never allowed to look. I had to learn by feel what each of the horse's legs are doing.

And I agree that teaching the rising trot as "up and down" is misleading. We all know once we've mastered the rising trot, that it's not "up and down", it's forward and back.

[Skyhuntress]

Ooh, ooh! I was! I was never allowed to look. I had to learn by feel what each of the horse's legs are doing.

And I agree that teaching the rising trot as "up and down" is misleading. We all know once we've mastered the rising trot, that it's not "up and down", it's forward and back.

See, then I would argue that it would in fact take longer for a rider to learn diagonals if they were relying strictly on feel as opposed to looking down and checking in order to learn the feel...because you are relying on someone else to tell you when you're wrong as opposed to riding, checking quickly, and self-correcting and learning feel through that.

"up and down" is misleading. But for a beginner rider? That's exactly what you want at first, because it's condusive to teaching diagonals. And the only way you can post forward and backwards is if your pelvis is loosened, and try explaining THAT to a kid

[wanabe]

Is it forward and back? To me it's more of a stand-up, sit down movement. Of course, when you stand up, your body moves forward, but the primary change, IMO, is that the angle formed by the body and the thighs is changing.

[wanabe]

I tried the bicycling backward movement tonight -- with very limited success. The bicycling forward movment seems smoother to me, but both are smoother than just sitting on the horse. Anyway, I'm not giving up on it just yet.

[lh-sc]

check out the kinder way link found on this site. She has a good section on what you are talking about.

[wanabe]

Oh, I've read that several times, along with her book Enlightened Equitation. The problem I have with Heather's instructions is that there just isn't time enough for me to curve and straighten my lower spine as she says to do. But, I'll reread and try again.

[Siogfinsceal]

im kinda speechless the video of the sitting trot looks a bit ridiculous her legs are pumping up and down - is it an excercise bike or a horse? I was always thought sit back in the saddle on the cheeks of your ass, open your knee, heels down and try to bounce as little as possible - works for me i love sitting trot! the dressage judges never say anything bad about the way im doing it so I figure its ok I think people just over complicate things sometimes! its ok if your an expert but at basic level its overload.
With diagonals we are allowed to look - u only have to look once cos when you have it right you just sit 2 beats each time you change rein

[Joyscarer]

If you thought sitting the trot was hard you should try what my sadist ( :D )riding intructor had me doing today. Sit for 3 beats rise for 3 beats :eek:

It really helped to highlight a few problems namely that I have a nasty habit of closing in my hips which leads my knee to grip and my weight then doesn't fall through my heel and my heel comes up. She had me doing that in the outside school too which leads to the horse being bouncier because it is a sand surface.

[wanabe]

I'm not having much success yet. :(

One thing I think is hooey, tho, is this idea of curving and straightening the lower back, consciously. Although the trot is 2 beats per stride, it consists of up-down-up-down per stride and it is physically impossible, I believe, to move one's lower back that fast.

I'm open to any suggestions! :confused:

[wanabe]

No one's got anything for me? :(

I'm looking to hear from someone who actually has a good sitting trot and who remembers the steps take took to get it. I've read what 5 different author-experts have to say -- and it hasn't got the job done.

[Hallmarked]

Don't be impatient:eek: If you are trying too hard you will tense up and be stiff when you need to be supple.

As much as you need to be supple in your lower back and hips, you need to be supple in your mind. Don't get frustrated, don't dwell on what's going wrong. Ride what is there, not what you think should be there, listen to your own body as well as the horse.

Personally I didn't have a Eureika (sp) moment when learning sitting trot, in that there wasn't suddenly a point where I could do it, and before I couldn't. There were odd short spells were it was better then I would loose it again and I just built it up from that. Even when I could sit to the trot I found that Heather could tweek it and improve it further, and as a result of that I still think of it as work in progress.

A eureika moment that has proved useful is when I clicked how much what is going on in your brain effects how you ride. If you think to yourself "I can't do this" then you wont. Be curious in your mind, put your awarness into your body, don't keep it in your head. Don't hold your breath either ....

Going back to suppleness in your hips and lower back, a netural pelvis is essential. If your spine is bent either forward or back you will have already taken out the 'spring' and so will be less flexible. Personally I do not even think about my spine flexing, it just does it on it's own without consious intervention on my part, but only since I gave up sitting on my fork:rolleyes: If it's going wrong I know I've slipped back there again.

I am guessing because you are male, that you are sitting on your tail bone a little bit too much and you need to sit up more. Don't be afraid to play about to find the right place to be. You may even find that you need to move your hips more than you think. I rode a big warmblood type recently, and was surprised how much more I needed to absorb the movement through my hips to sit to her.

Also in learning to sit I found holding on to the saddle helped me find my place to sit, as I could move to follow the movement without so much of a worry of slipping off:rolleyes: as it gave me a little extra support to my seat.

Sorry if I've gone a bit 'New Agey' on you, but I hope you get my meaning with the mental stuff. Good luck.

[wanabe]

Thanks!

I actually think I sit pretty neutral most of the time. I've had my best luck with allowing my spine to collapse forward on the "up" parts of the stride -- but there just isn't time to consciously straighten the spine back to neutral on the "down" part as Heather recommends -- we're talking about 1/4 second here -- I try to just let that happen.

I also don't have a problem with worrying about falling of because I learned my lesson in that regard and keep my legs down and no matter how bumpy the ride remember to always bounce back toward the center of the horse.

I'll try holding onto the saddle, tho, and see if that makes a difference.

[Grace O'Malley]

My brain is hurting from trying to analyze this :p

The way I think about it is that my body from hips down is part of the horse--like a centaur ;). From the waist up, it's my responsibility to lift and keep my alignment. The bit in between (the lumbar region of the back) flexes naturally with the horse's motion. This works pretty well for me on most horses, even fairly bouncy ones. I have ended up with a sore back from sitting trot on horses with huge action, but then I avoid those :o

I tend to be an analytical thinker, but sometimes imagery works better for coordinating complicated actions.

[vicky31]

Hi, Oh my! how much reading? I feel a bit baffled!
I personally learned sitting trot by ridding with no stirrups. It pushes you deep in to the saddle, forces your legs in the correct position. As your horse starts to trot, you have to imagine the base of your spin is a spring absorbing every step but it really is a feel thing! Relax your shoulders,nice loose arms and contact,which makes you sit deep and sit upright. You need to be in the zone, you know when you hear nothing around you and you are concentrating really concentrating. Let your legs hang long and loose dont grip or you will feel every step and bump out the saddle then your horse starts to speed up and its gone. God it is so hard to describe! When you first start to feel your self puffing which you will as you naturally tense your stomach, back and shoulders trying to keep still. Tkae a deep breath let your shoulders relax stop gripping the reins so tight your knuckles hurt and sit on your bottom rather than being stood up with a saddle between your legs. Does that make sense? When you start to use sitting trot in working and extended trot I find leaning back slightly helps to absorb the movement.
I hope i haven't written a load of old cobblers and youall think I am daft, I know what I mean but it is so hard to put in to words, please try it and let me know.
I used to have an old riding instructor and he used to scream centifugal force Victoria, move with the horse.

[wanabe]

LOL, this is nothing compared to the thread I started on rising trot! :)

Vicky31, you've said in your own words what one author said about the difficulty of teaching this movement. It's a FEEL that each person has to learn on their own.

I don't know -- maybe I am doing a pretty good rising trot when I allow my spine to curve on the up movements. I seem to be staying in the saddle pretty well versus one of the advanced students who I've watch ride bareback. Her butt was leaving the horse by about 3 or 4 inches.

[mollypop]

Hi everyone

Its great to her so many people discussing how to do sitting trot right - and everyone has so many different views. I think we need to be careful about 'flexing' spines and absorbing movement - it sounds a bit like a few people may end up with pains in the back (or pains in the bum!) so maybe do a bit more research into how to use your back before you commit yourself to the physio waiting list! i would like to recommend another coach that i dont think anyone mentioned above - mary wanless. her book 'ride with your mind' may well change your life and save your back.

[wanabe]

Actually, Mary Wanless is one of the 5 or 6 experts whose "how to" I've read. She's sort of new-agey, but basically she's one of the "absorb the shock with your body" school. She gives a LONG list of exercises you have to spend hours doing before you're ready to try to sit the trot. That kind of put me off!

[Hallmarked]

wanabe, I'm with you on this one.

I have actually met both Mary Wanless and Heather Moffett. Of the two I found Heather the most approachable and emphathic. Perhaps it was because of this I found Heather better at explaining her approach. Mary was much more complicated and tended to 'blind with science'.

After thinking of myself as a Mary fan, I have found myself rather easily converted to Heather.

[mollypop]

Hi wanabe

I am definitley a 'mary fan' and I find her work amazing. It is quite scientific and can seem abit daunting, but I think it is worth the investment of time for the results you get. Why not dedicate yourself to it for a month and see if you get anywhere?