Poor condition!

[CheshireKate]

Hi
Please can you help me get Willow into condition?

I've been loaning him for about 6 weeks now. I've always known he's thin (poor doer and TB), but I'm new to this and don't know what's 'normal' in a horse. However, AmandaW came over last night to see him and says she's never seen such a thin horse. I'm concerned. He's not starving, but things aren't right.

He's turned out 24 hours, and they said he'd put weight on - in fact he has already, but he is sensitive and thin-skinned, and I'm sure he feels the cold (not rugged up). There's no fat on him at all. He's 17.3 and all the work he gets is when I come to see him, which is 3-4 times per week, sometimes just for a chat and some tlc.

I've read the thread here on sugarbeet, and it's one of the things Amanda suggested, but although I've got the Pony Club manual, the bit on feeding leaves me feeling dazed! I give him cubes (which he wolfs, poor hungry boy), but more as a thank you, so not enough to make a difference. I'd really like him to be happy. What can you suggest? I can only go over in the evenings after work.
Thanks
Kate

[ally]

Hi,
I had a very similar problem a few years back with a horse I rescued.
We did the obvious stuff like worming and teeth checking which made a bit of a difference plus a blood test , just to make sure nothing sinister was happening, tho feeding the burgess supa barley and Hi fi chaff made an incredible difference.
We tried feeding sugar beet but that just made his droppings really loose, so we stopped, and dampened his feed with warm water.
He was given unlimited hay , two sections in the morning plus a feed so he didnt go out and graze on an empty stomach.
He had lunch , then came in of an evening to the rest of the bale of hay plus another feed.
All feeding and grass had to be gradual so his gut flora could cope with the input of feed and within a few weeks he looked twice the horse that arrived !!
He was rugged at night time as the temperature would drop and we needed all the food he was eating to furnish his ribs and not into keeping him warm.
The Burgess Supa Barley was so brilliant and not at all heating , and can be made into a mash if needed.
I hope this experience helps you with your horse, and keep us posted of his progress !!

Ally :)

[galadriel]

My vet tells me that a lot of hard-keeps TB's hae gastrointestinal ulcers that make proper digestion difficult. This is US, where 90% of TB's are off the track and were NOT treated well on the track, so likelihood of ulcers from stress is pretty high. Dunno what it's like anywhere else...

But anyway, he said that we could feed such things as Pepto-Bismal/Milk of Magnesia, or we could add a mineral mix high in calcium & phosphate to his food. Just started it yesterday, so I can't offer you any results yet, but we're hoping that Kip starts to digest just a little better. :)

[Aly]

Get a worm count done to rule out the chances of worms. Even if still wormed regularly, you may find he still has a high infestation.
Keep into consideration the fact, there may be a chance he has ulcers, and I would suggests speaking to a vet about his weight, and if ulcers what can be done.

Then the main thing is feed him. Fatty foods like macdonalds, without the patty of course may help, especially with loads of sauce and gerkins, but of course this isn't such a good idea as he will probably get a real belly ache. The main thing I would suggest is to either, look on the net, or buy a really good nutrition guide, which will spell out foods which will help increase his weight and which of these foods give out high energy etc.

Having gone through this experience of a poor doer, and sorting out worm problems etc. with no improvement of his weight, I know how it feels. Moving him to a different livery centre in a different area, with different types of pasture, was what got him back on the right track and helped him put weight on, so that too could be another suggestion.

[CheshireKate]

Thanks for your suggestions. He belongs to my instructress' husband - he's kept for hunting - so I can't move him, and they're in charge of vetting, so I can't guarantee they'd agree to get one out. I will try though - trouble is, they're the 'experts' on this.
Kate

[Mehitabel]

aren't they concerned about his weight?
i'd agree with the others - sugar beet, supa barley and baileys no.1 are excellent non -heating fatteners, you can also get a mix called weight gain that we use for one of our stallions when he's covering. another thing you could try is to rug him up, if he's a delicate boy he's probably feeling the cold at nights. is there anyone who will take it off for you in the mornings?

[Lgd]

Try gradually introducing one of the weight gain or conditioning mixes (I found the Spillers HDF conditioning mix/cubes very good for weight gain without fizzing them up) alongside some pro-biotics. I have tried all of the major one's and the best one if you can find a local supplier is called Fastrak, it works out much cheaper (£25 for a 3 month supply)than the Blue Chip and Equilibra and I found it worked better. I get it through the wife of my horse dentist - she uses it in their National Hunt racers. The only other place I know of that stocks it in my area is Egsport (?sp) at Hexham.

[Tina J]

I used Equilibra and build up with my TB through the winter. He's a good doer but loses weight easily if he gets chilled. It worked so well (he only gets small feeds but has hay all the time in winter) that I am now in the position of having to diet him!

Not heard of Fastrak, but if you can't find it, I find Equilibra cheaper than Blue Chip, and both work well. Good luck with him. Loaning a horse can be difficult unless you get it all tied down at the start who is going to be responsible for what, and how disputes over feeding and care are to be sorted out.

That said, a fit TB, (which presumably he is if he's been hunted this winter) in lean condition, can look very thin to anyone used to Cobs or native breeds. Take a good look at racehorses in the paddock if you go to races at all. Anyone who events or races would be horrified at how fat my chap is - but he's well covered rather than gross (though he's not going to be allowed to get any more well covered!). And he's just hacking fit, rather than racing fit. So don't be surprised if your chap's owners disagree on what is a good weight for him.

[AmandaW]

Hi All, hi Kate,

I thought Willow was thin. I would under no circumstances say I had an experienced eye but he did not seem well muscled to me either. His ribs, although visible did seem to have some covering, but his shoulders just felt like skin on bone and his quarters sloped very sharply from his croup, the base of his tail being very visible. Sorry if I haven't explained that very well.:confused:

Kate thought his condition had improved since he had been turned out, but we were both a little perplexed at his lack of muscle, seeing as he had been hunted last season. Would he have burnt up muscle for energy?

He is very resistant to having his feet picked out. It took a while of me patiently asking gently for him to lift his off fore and hind. I manged to get him to lift his near fore but he found his near hind very difficult and when he lifted it his leg went into a sort of spasm. When I asked again he lifted his other hind and kicked out! I stress I didn't use any force (just a gentle squeeze of the fetlock) or try to lift the feet myself just waited for him to offer. He was recently re-shod on that foot so the farrier must have managed somehow!? Could this be related to his lack of muscle tone or was I being inept? When we watched him go down to roll his leg was trembling then. I think Kate said that she has seen him do the same before?

Forgive my waffle. Kate would you say that was a fair description?

Would you work an underweight horse? Would you wait until he had a good covering before thinking about building up his muscle?

When working out a ration for Willow what ratio of concentrates to forage would you give, or because he is turned out would you just slowly introduce a conditioning feed to a level where he appeared to be gaining weight? Would oil be a good thing to feed him? He eats really fast, would it be good to add some Alfa A. Finally how much could a 17.3hh horse cope with in a single meal, as I know Kate can only get down once a day?

Thanks everyone,

Amanda

Kate as I said before I am very happy to give you 'moral support', but I think in some things it might be a case of the blind leading the blind! :) Such alot to learn!

[CheshireKate]

Yes Amanda I think that's fair.
You weren't using force, just being braver than I am about it! I've tended to assume it's me doing something wrong that means he plants his feet.

And thanks for the description of the shaking - I wasn't sure how to explain that one. When I've seen him roll before, he's reminded me of a giraffe trying to lie down - their legs shake too. It looks as if it's from the strain of going down.

I'll let you know what they say when I mention it to them tomorrow.
Kate

[CheshireKate]

Just been told (by the owner not my instructress) that he isn't 13 and TB, but 14-15 and Hanoverian!!
Don't know what to think now!
Kate

[Alison+Rio]

i would say that its even worse if it is a hanoverian! they are bigger built than thoroughbreds! TBs can easily look thin and most of them do look waife like, but, Han' dont! they should be big powerful horses. I would try and speak to the owners again and see if you can arrange something. Dont get upset or angry with the owners as that could make the situation worse. try and get your point of view across to them. maybe suggest that for your peace of mind could he you get the vet up to give him a full check over! or make up some story about why the vet should come up to further your education or something! hopefully if the vet picks up on his condition they may do something about it!

[Tina J]

Vet check is an exellent idea if he is that thin. Horses are like humans in that if they lose too much weight, too quickly, they can also lose muscle (which is why crash dieting never works long term). It sounds as if this is what has happened to your chap, and it will take a while to build it all back up again. If he has lost muscle through weight loss, he will be weak, so I would want veterinary advice about exercise.

In terms of how much feed in one go, you need to build it up slowly, to gradually get his stomach used to larger quantities. A horse's stomach is roughly bucket sized at its maximum, but if you fill it totally their digestion is not as good, or as thorough (hence the recommendation to feed little and often). If you take it slowly building up the amount, he should be able to end up eating just over half a bucket full in volume (if its mixed with chaff so he has to chew and not bolt it), and still digest efficiently. But discuss with a vet, and do build it up very slowly.

Good luck with him. He is so lucky he now has someone paying specific attention to his needs.

[CheshireKate]

Hi all and thanks
I'm investigating shivers at the moment, and am going to see what the owners think about changing him to a high-fat diet to see if that helps with the slight shake, muscle wasting and stiffness (Amanda found some info on the BHS message board about EPSM, when they can't get enough energy to their muscles from their diet, and sometimes it helps to replace some of the grain intake with fat). From reading it I think he has some ofthe symptoms - or it could be just old age after a hard life, as they say.
I'd love to get a vet involved, but I don't think they're going to. He isn't a pet, unfortunately. I'm not riding him now - even at a walk I think it'd hurt. I'm trying the Kelly Marks foundation exercises instead - even if thin, he is still big and powerful when he barges past! He doesn't do that in the school now - just on the way back to the field.
Good news is that he's slowly gaining some weight. And I think they're retiring him from the hunting.
Kate