Working livery...advice please

[helen.e]

I started riding when I was younger and have been back riding again for a while now. I'm considering buying a horse so I can ride more often and try RC activities/competitions. I've had a loan horse at my RS for a while but its owner has now come back from travelling and taken over the ride so I can't ride him any more.

My RI suggested that the type of horse I would buy would be suitable for use in the riding school so I could consider keeping it on working livery there.
Financially and time-wise it seems to be a good option. I'm happy with the way horses are cared for at the RS and I know I would get whatever help I needed in caring for my horse, but I am worried about how the horse would be affected by being ridden by lots of different people, especially beginners.

Has anyone got any experience of working livery arrangements - good or bad...?

Thanks

Helen

[Flony_Pony]

I personally dont like them! I had my old pony on WL and he hated it! I never got to ride my horse and i used to cringe watching hopeless people ride him.

Although depending on the horse they may cope fine with this and it would work well if your happy they would be looked after properly and help is always on hand!!

[Joyscarer]

Joy was on working livery which is how I met her.

I personally didn't like the fact that I would not have enough use of her to be able to affect how her education went. The riding school never really schooled her either so if she'd stayed there she was destined to remain a very ordinary riding school nag.

Added to that she didn't suit being kept in the way she was and I wanted my horse to be my partner rather than a money making working animal. A riding school wouldn't have treated her as I would have wanted to and I wouldn't have had the freedoms with her that I do now. I'd never put her back on working livery.

[amandal]

It totally depends on the RS really, mine was overused (as she was so adaptable apparently) and lunged when the vet had said not to. She was however very fit when she was there. When the working students or the advanced riders rode her she was schooled well, we were at a very well respected training centre.

I left for a variety of reasons, not all to do with how she was used.

[eml]

I am actually an RS owner who will not consider a working livery as I seldom see it being in the best interests of the horse. The exception being the very novice owner who's horse can be used by better riders and its schooling kept up.

Generally the working livery leads to conflicts and rather defeats the purpose of buying a horse which I think is to develop a relationship with the horse, have its care under your control, being able to ride when you want. None of these really works in the working livery situation

[Stella2]

eml - I know someone considering working livery at a place doing BHS 'stages' training. What would you think of that? Would there be much of a difference to other working livery? I'd still be inclined to think that there would be a lot of variation in the standard of riding, use of whip etc, but maybe thats because I have a possessive streak where mine is concerned :rolleyes:

[Gruntfuttock]

I always thought working livery was an excellent idea - inexpensive way of keeping a horse, horse gets plenty of exercise, etc) - but when I stopped to think about it, my objections were much the same as Flony_Pony's. A riding school would invariably want to use the horse more at the weekends, which is when I'd want to ride, and even though I am hardly the world's most expert rider myself, I would not want to watch complete beginners sawing at my horse's mouth....

So for me, part livery it will almost certainly be. At least then I can choose who gets to ride my horse.

[Belle1]

I keep Tali on working livery. I would only consider it at a very good riding school with a high standard of teaching. I can ride Tali most days, although school holidays sometimes pose a problem as at 14.2hh he is a very usefull size for the older kids. He is fed appropriately for the level of work he is doing and has plenty of energy. He is well looked after. He isn't ridden by total novices (he isn't suitable - he is far too clever!) but is ridden by people less experienced than I am. I don't think it has adversely affected his schooling as when I got him he was pretty green, and last weekend I took him out and he won 2 dressage classes.

[soonerBriding]

I've tried WL at 2 RS, both total opposite extremes.
With children and a FT job/first horse I need the support, even though I go daily.

Lessons I've learnt:-
* Choose a BHS/ABRS approved RS - yearly inspections, higher standards...
* Check all those handling him are qualified i.e. NVQ etc. Make sure that clients are not tacking up for you or children (I had a bridle/set of reins broken)
* Check you can choose your own diet/feed regime
* Agree how many hours used each day by the RS & weekends. Think through the times he will be used for lessons v when you choose to ride, do they work?
* Agree your personal use of school facilities
* Check type of use for RS & level of rider
* Make sure you have a working livery contract. Personally would not touch one with > 1 months notice to quit if not happy.
* Check he will be groomed/hooves picked before ridden (not all do)
* Ask about grass turnout arrangements (esp. in between lessons)
* Declare WL to your Insurance company (even though your horse will be covered on their policy for RS use)
* Check on weight limits for riders & your pony, remember the saddle weight (avoid back problems)
*Make sure the horse/pony you choose is right for you, don't let the RS persuade you on what is best for school use, you have to be 100% happy. If you can't agree then WL not for you.

My sports horse is used for advanced riders at an exceptional centre, he gained dressage schooling and more fitness. He is not suitable for novice/intermed so it's a perfect balance of work and energy remaining. Plus he doesn't pick up bad habits. I would not want him bounced on by beginners, nor does he need a whip! The support is very useful though.

From the 'bond' side though I spend alot of time with him each day, groundwork/grooming/play/joinup too are important & part of that. I would not want to just turn up and ride, he knows who is his mum :-) We keep the special parts unique to us. I know other WL owners who just do the ride part, I don't see the difference then to just booking a lesson.

WL is a choice different for everyone based on personal commitments & also each pony/horse. If you go for it would suggest you do a month's trial & also watch a couple of lessons from a distance. Even though you know this yard/RI you need to be clear on above, it's not a RS pony, only for the agreed RS use.

[HotchPotch]

I work at a RS/exam training centre. We have many liveries, all working. The horses only get hours work a day and our college liveries do not work at the weekends. The livery is more expensive than usual RS livery, but well worth it. If the owner wants to ride their horse, we do not use it that day, or we try to use it in the morning if coming at tea time, or vice versa. At the end of the day it is their horse, so they get priority. All owners have the final say over anything to do with their horse. The horses go out all day at the weekends, and at least once during the week. And they spend all summer in the field getting fat and only doing the odd lesson. The schools horses tend to not work during the week so work at a weekend for one hour a day, two if they are very unlucky, but not very often. However they tend to work most days in the summer with one or two days off a week, except pony camp when everything works everyday. So our horses do less work than some private owned horses, as much as they all think they are over worked.
We take pride in schooling all of our horses up and keeping them happy and well.
We do not have any horses over the age of ten, and no horse stays if they do not enjoy their job. We also tend to sell most horses on after a couple of years as they deserve an owner of their own to spoil them and love them. None of our horses are unhappy, overworked, or ruined by novice riders.
Sorry if I ranted, but I hate the fact that everyone thinks RS horses all work for hours everyday, and are not cared about. We try hard to treat each horse as our own and they all get special care.

[Alfies-slave]

Depends on the RS. You could find that you can't ride your horse when you want. You have to put up with people making their mistakes with it!

Don't rely on the financial aspects. If the horse is ill or unsound it obviously can't be used and you livery bill will go up.

[RockChick2007]

i persoanlly dont like the idea either, i mean.. you spend all that cash on a horse and then work on it making it how you would like it to be and then someone else rides it and all your work is "ruined" for want of a better word

[Shootingstar]

Don't like the idea.
You may as well just loan from the RS, as they'll decide on when you ride, and how often the horse is exercised, what it is fed and most aspects of it's care.

The only choices that you'll have are if you hack or do schooling. Oh, and you'll usually be responsible for vet/farrier/tack costs too.

If you want the best from your horse, I wouldn't go for livery at an RS.

[Afellpony]

There are riding schools and riding schools. I'd never again keep a horse at working livery - but I have known working livery to be successful for some people. You just have to pick the right riding stables to have the horse on working livery with.

[eml]

We are a training centre and I am very strict on how horses are ridden and hours worked but I still don't take working liveries.

I do use my own horse for some students and we also loan two horses to good clients on very strict terms as they benefit from a one to one relationship. I do however like to control my horses work, schooling, feeding totally and feel this is not appropriate for a working livery as the owner must be able to make decisions for their horse otherwise why do they have one?

I did do working livery once for a very novice owner. I chose horse , selected feeding and exercise, actually rode him out a lot myself as I liked him but recognised he could not be got to peak fitness as novice owner would not then cope. Very popular in school but the better he went the more the owner struggled. Sadly he was moved to a hunting livery yard and got fitter, jumped gate with owner and so was sold on.

[incognito]

I am far to precious (rightly or wrongly) about my horses to want to see average or bad riders having any input, I want the improvements in their way of going to be a result of my learning curve and take full responsibility if it is the other way round. And if I wanted anyone to ride them I would want to do the choosing of the person and know something about them.

I know of one person with their horse on FL and she always (dont think she realises) says if he has had a bad day "oh but that rider wasn't doing this that or the other," and then when things go well she takes all of the credit (sometimes justified) but how can she really know what is making him tick...or for that matter who has been responsible for his improvement, and she has constant "issues" where everything gets blamed bar the kitchen sink, beit the saddle his back or god knows what else, can she expect the horse, and he is only young to benifit from such a variety of riders..?

Obviously horses in a RS situation have to have a variety of riders but there is a world of difference to the mental makeup of a private owned horse and a working RS horse, and after all as somebody else has said isnt that why we buy one for ourselves in the first place.


Credit to EML for putting the horse and owner first.

[Afellpony]

When I first started owning horses, all the liveries on the yard where I was were working liveries. Then it seemed to go out of fashion - now it's back again. On the face of it, it seems a good option, particularly for the working owner. However my main objection to WL is the advantage YOs take of WLs. Before moving to where I am now, I used to go to a stables in Surrey called Huntersfield Riding Stables. Everyone who owned horses had them on WL as they were mainly working owners. The horses did about 3 hours a day. Then it went out of fashion because owners suddenly woke up to the fact that they were being taken the **** out of basically. Then I moved to where I am now and all the RS here did WL. Unfortunately, they didn't care much about other people's horses working them up to 5 hours a day. However, so many people kicked up a stink that they stopped WL altogther.A few years ago a new stables opened in the area and they started doing WL. I only rode there a couple of times (when I was horseless) on a school horse. I've been told the WLs can do up to about 4 hours a day and the owners can have them 2 half days or 1 whole day at the weekend. On one yard I was at (not saying where or which one), one of the working liveries, a lovely big mare was literally almost worked to death. She was so giving and was thoroughly taken advantage of. Needless to say this was reported and a visit from the RSPCA followed. I would add that this RS had already lost its ARBS/BHS approval a while previously.

[Julz]

If your horse is on WL, you can say to the school what level of rider you'd like to have on your horse.... i.e advanced only - no beginners.. an advanced rider would atleast be able to ride your horse with sympathy and be taught correctly, and not be bashed around in the mouth/sides by and unbalanced rider..you can also say no hacks..nothing worse than your horse picking up bad habits because it's been allowed to canter/gallop in the same place everytime.

Or you can allow the school for the horse to be used as an Escort only.

[Afellpony]

Yes, you're right, you can say what sort of rider etc can ride your horse but do they take this on board? I very much doubt it. No doubt there are stables which dont take the **** and use WLs properly but these are, I fear, few and far between. 'Sadly, rules and conditions governing working liveries are fairly useless as the horse's owner is rarely there during the day to see what's going on; that is why the horse is on WL. To the majority of RS owners, all that matters at the end of the day is the akkers the horse earns for them. Call me sceptical and cynical if you like but in my time I've seen a lot of what goes on at riding schools which is not kosher!!!!

[Stella2]

Even where the place was perfect, stuck to agreed hours etc, I couldn't do it myself. I have to be in control where Flora is concerned. I couldn't bear the idea of someone upsetting her and me not being there. I'm just too possessive :rolleyes:

[Holly321]

A few years ago a friend got a horse on loan originally to go on working livery, but then decided that it was not suitable for it. She did, however, keep it at the same livery yard+riding school. It was several months before she found out the horse was actually being used in lessons without her or the owners knowledge or permission. This horse was generally quite good but had his moments and was not the best schooled so you wouldn't put a novice on him. However, this is exactly what the RS owner had done, leading to him becoming a problem to ride. Also, the RS owner had been allowing small children to handle him, which being a clever horse and also very big and strong he soon realised he could just tank off to the nearest patch of grass ( not nasty, would just pull and go fast trotting off) leading to him being a problem when handled. This was soon remedied when the RS owner admitted she shouldn't have let kiddies handle him and didn't do it again.
Sooo...I used to think working liveries were a good idea, but after my friends troubles I'm not so convinced.

[helen.e]

Thanks for all your advice.
Until now I hadn't realised it might be possible to loan a horse from an RS. Having made enquiries, it seems this option is available to me at my RS so I'm planining to loan one of their horses. If that goes well, I'll consider getting a horse of my own sometime in the future when I'm more experienced, but am more than happy to wait for a while until the time is right.
I've also signed up for the NVQ level 2 course run at my RS to improve my knowledge in horse care.

H

[helen.e]

Thanks for all your advice.
I hadn't realised it might be possible to loan a horse from an RS. Having made enquiries, it seems this option is available to me at my RS so I'm planning to loan one of their horses. If that goes well, I'll consider getting a horse of my own sometime in the future, but am more than happy to wait for a while until the time is right.
I've also signed up for the NVQ level 2 course run at my RS to improve my knowledge in horse care.

H

[eml]

Congratulations Helen.e and I am sure you will have a great time doing the NVQ as well as feeling much more ready to get a horse.

We are very selective about horse loans, they only go to experienced (both ladies are Stage 3) riders and one is a vet! The horses work in student training so are well schooled talented ex competition horses who do a lot of school work but are not used at weekends when we teach little people only!
Part loans are ideal for us as it means the horses get hacked out and taken to local shows at weekends as well as a bit of pampering that is hard to do on a busy yard. Today was hot so they both hacked and then bathed horses. This helps keep the horses fresh in their minds.

Do make sure if you are loaning that your time is instead of, not in addition to the horses normal work. I do know yards where loan horse will already have done a full day in the school and then are allowed to be used in addition by the loaner who often is only allowed to work in the school...not great either for horse or loaner.

Lots of schools do different sorts of loans and I am sure it is a better way to start practicing ownership than Working Livery.

[LauraLou]

Thats so refreshing to hear Helen.e, that your going to do a NVQ to improve knowledge, so many peeps jump right in with only a basic knowledge. Have fun loaning too, the best horsey years of my life have been on riding school horses down my local yard! :D