Hindleg / Back Problem

[Yann]

Just after a bit of advice or information if anyone has experience of a similar case or any ideas. Ben, the horse I share is about 17 years old and was bought last summer by his current owner. He didn't pass his vetting due to his back legs but was bought nonetheless. He has great difficulty picking up his hind feet at all when being groomed, and when trotting tends to strike his toes on the ground and wear the front of his hind hooves and shoes and to a lesser extent the front too. He also has difficulty going downhill out on hacks and has started reacting when his saddle is put on. He was quite bad when first bought, then got better, but the problem has gradually been getting worse again such that he's now being rested a bit.

The saddle fit may be a problem and is being checked. Just wondered if his difficulties are just the result of a hard life or whether things could be helped or improved in any way?

Thanks:)

[Showjumper]

Sounds like it could be the start of Shivers. I hope this isn't the case as it's a degenerative disease and not nice at all.

[ally]

mmm maybe it would be worthwhile getting a qualified back specialist to have a look.
In the mean time it may be an idea to ask the farrier to dress the hind toes and fit rolled toed shoes to help him.
If he has so much trouble picking up his hind feet than get the back specialist in first. It could be something like a rotated pelvis or something more serious like the start of kissing spine.
I would certainly stop riding though until you have sought further
qualified advice !!
Keep us posted as to how the horse gets on ok

Ally

[ros]

Poor Ben. Could be any number, or a combination, of things. Degenerative Joint Disease springs to mind (difficulty lifting the legs); or as Aly suggests, some kind of back problem or similar. The difficulty in going downhill could also very well be down to a saddle problem - pinching the shoulders, perhaps? Or it could also be an indication of some kind of arthritic problem - how is he when turning?

Do hope it's nothing sinister. Please let us know how he gets on.

[CheshireKate]

This is weird Yann, I've just found out Willow may have the start of shivers (muscle wastage, won't pick his feet up, is resisting being mounted, stiff gait in the back legs, legs shaking when he goes to roll and when the back near is picked up), so I've been reading about it (courtesy of AmandaW) on the web.

In the US they think it may be due to failure to get enough energy to the muscles from carbohydrates, so they've been trialling a high-fat diet, which seems to work for most horses. You replace a proportion of the grain with alfalfa (or something else the horse will eat) and vegetable oil. The oil seems to be the crucial thing. The Rural Heritage website has loads of info on it and the recommended diet - they've been studying it in draft horses, but Warmbloods are susceptible (turns out Willow is a Hanoverian not TB as I was told!) and other breeds can get it too, but generally not so badly. Have a look at this site and go to the vet clinic, and look there for the articles on EPSM (equine polysaccharide storage myopathy):

www.ruralheritage.com\index.htm

They reckon EPSM may be behind a whole load of symptoms such as tying up, stringhalt and shivers.
Good luck
Kate

[ally]

Hi,
Ive read that article as well but I think Bens problem sounds more mechanical then to do with the nerves feeding the rear spinal area.
Yann mentined that Ben was having trouble walking down hills and lifting the hindlegs and showing discomfort when the saddle was offered up to the back.
I still reckon it would be worth having a McTimoney Chiropractor take a look as there could be two problems here , one at the T6 area ( wither) and another at T18 to L6 ( behind the saddle area)
as I still think it may be an impingement of some kind, and maybe the saddle isnt helping either.
Lets hope Ben feels better soon.

Ally

[Dizzy]

I would strongly urge his Mum to have him thoroughly checked by the vet. What were the vets original thoughts when he failed his vet test? How is he at backing up? Does he pick up his front feet easily? Is his tail relaxed?

You can do a make shift test, by applying firm,even pressure, (not poking) from poll to dock, you may pick up the where the problem is stemming from, I'm only guessing, by the sound of his symptoms it could be in his hips, I think its called the sacroiliac joint. But its professional help you need.

Hope things turn out ok,

Lesley

[chev]

I don't think it sounds like shivers - I thought that just got worse and worse, not better? Have I got that wrong?
When you say he was bad, then got better, and is now worse again, can you think of anything that changed that might have affected him? Different workload, or change of saddle, or anything like that?
I think Ally's probably in the right area, it sounds mechanical to me too. It could also be there are several minor problems which together make it look like one big one. You don't say what the vetting revealed about his hind legs, if anything, but if there is a problem there, and also a mild back problem then the two together could make it appear like a different problem altogether (hope that made sense).
I hope you get to the bottom of this soon, good luck.

[Yann]

The Vet came out and had a look a couple of days ago. Apparently his leg joints are done in from whatever he used to do and he's got arthritis. However he checked his back and said it was OK, and that the best thing to do was to keep him working regularly.
His saddle has been checked and deemed to be OK also.

Ben picks his front legs up fine, and has no problem backing up, so that probably discounts the shivers. Not only that but in the last few days he's started picking up his back feet too, which I've not seen him do before. Can only assume this is down to the cortaflex he's just started on kicking in.

Thanks for all your thoughts and suggestions, many of which as it turns out were very accurate. What a great site this is...

Rode Ben out today for the first time in nearly a fortnight, he wasn't much better downhill but was fresh and spooky, so fingers crossed he's now feeling a bit better!:)

[Zingy]

You might find it still worth getting his back checked out by a physio - apparently any arthritis in back legs will cause a back problem as the horse has to alter his way of going to relieve the pain from his legs (causing tension in his back). Having had a similar problem with my horse and being told many times that his back/ saddle/ teeth etc were all fine, a physio has (finally!) discovered a very deep seated back problem, and since being treated for it he is moving like I've never seen before. He no longer drags his feet, can walk downhill without going sideways and is working with far more impulsion and freedom in his paces. Never thought I'd see anything like that improvement, and I'd definitely recommend it!

[judyl]

Hi

I would echo getting out a physio to check Ben over. You should check with the Vet first but I would think that would just be a courtesy thing. Although the Physio (if qualified) wouldn't touch the horse without having the Vet's permission.

Anyway, the Physio would find out if anything wasn't right with the back and possibly, even if the back is ok, maybe some slight massage and treatment would ease things along. Sometimes something tiny isn't quite right and a physio treatment would ease it. I have my horse checked at least twice a year and if I think there's a problem I'll call my physio out. When there has been a problem, the difference after treatment and a couple of days rest is amazing.

Good luck with Ben.

Judy

[Yann]

It makes senses for problems in the back legs to cause tension and soreness elsewhere. The regular yard physio is visiting in a couple of weeks, hopefully he might get seen then. I had him massaged recently and the person who did it found a lot of tension and soreness, so it would definitely seem worthwhile.
I only share him though, so the decision won't be mine.

[virtuallyhorses]

I can definitely recommend physio - and I hope that you are still getting that saddle checked, since it sounds ominous that he was starting to refuse it.

I have just been through a physio process with my horse - due partly to poor saddle fit and partly to a previous (unknown) injury if you would like more information or to discuss I kept a short diary of treatments @ Virtually Horses Community (http://communities.msn.co.nz/VirtuallyHorses)

I still get the physio to check him our every couple of months

Sore Backs Article and Links (http://www.worldzone.net/recreation/virtuallyhorses/sorebacks.html)

BTW Vets are pretty crap at diagnosing physio type injuries - its like when we go to the GP with a muscle or tendon injury - the GP just takes your word that its sore, may check that there's not a bone broken , but only a physio or massage therapist will actually be able to feel the damage, knots, stiffness in the muscles and tendons.