Hoof problems - What would you do?

[Jay.o]

Hello, long time no speak! Hope everyone is well..

Problem: Have a thoroughbred, with typical thoroughbred feet - terrible. With this weather recently, warm then wet then warm and wet again, his feet were horrendous! Crumbling so badly that his front shoes were falling off after only 4-5weeks. He was lame (understandably). Farrier came out and replaced them. He was lame for 7 days (still is now) and his shoe was loose (after only 6 days!!). Farrier came back this morning and replaced the shoe putting the holes lower down his feet. He said he put them higher becuase it would hold the show on longer, but he put them too high he could barely walk.

He used to have natural balance shoes on but apparently they can cause the foot to crumble because the lack of support? So last Thursday different shoes went on.. ones with side supports? Very similar to regular back shoes.

With his feet the way they are, I am so temped to take off his shoes at the front and buy his Equi Boots to wear for a few weeks to get his feet to grow down and strengthen. Only problem is, I know how footsore he gets... but then again, it cant be much worse than how he is now?

Help me...

[Julz]

get his shoes off, the more holes in his hoof wall the weaker and more prone to splitting they will be... buy the hoofboots and so long as he's not lame ride him in them. Also get him on a good supplement, Farriers Formular is excellent but expensive, but you may only need him on it until his feet have improved... if you feel you cnat do the Farrier's Formula, give him supplements like Biotin and magneisium (mag-ox or calmag) and also Cornucresine on the coronary band, everyday.

Incidently it wont take a few weeks, it will take a few months, considering it takes about 9months for the horn to grow from the coronary band, to the floor... but that's not to say you'll have to wait that long til the shoes can go on again.... make sure your farrier sees the foot regularly, if he doesnt agree to take the shoes off, for the well being of the foot, change your farrier.. or better still get a barefoot trimmer so get his feet in shape... I know of a website that has helped many horses with bad feet (one or two horses were due to be PTS b/c of thier feet) and now they have super feet..all barefoot... I'll get the link for you

We have a horse in the yard, who had your probs last year... couldnt keep his shoes on, his farrier refused to nail anything to his feet until they had improved... now he's got lovely feet and normal shoes on...

[shandy84]

Perhaps try Glue on shoes if you'd rather keep your horse in shoes, that way the hoof wall can strengthen as no nail holes but you're not going to wear away the foot from being barefoot

[chewitmonster]

Taking his shoes off and booting him up with pads should help him feel more comfortable whilst the feet grow and hopefully strengthen up. Biotin and magnesium as Julz suggested are ideal for hooves and if you haven't got him on them then I personally would be doing so soon.

Once you have a stronger hoof to work with without nail holes etc then you can have him shod (make sure its done properly) if you want - the farrier should thank you for a better hoof to work with!

Also make sure he doesn't have any infections like White Line Disease in the nail holes - flushing/soaking in Milton (diluted in 70% water to 30% Milton) or similar will help combat this.

[Pink's lady]

It's going to take a while by the sounds of it!

Very first thing I would do it kill off whatever is causing the feet to be soft and crumbly. It's most likely to be WLD thats slowly creeping up the inside of the wall and weakening the feet. Wet then dry/wet then dry shouldn't make the feet that weak but it DOES make the WLD bacteria go Yippee and have a right old party;)

There are a couple of soaks avalible but he'll need his feet soaked everyday for at least two weeks. I would highly recommend buying four of these (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Poultice-boot-canvas-COB-size_W0QQitemZ180129342700QQihZ008QQcategoryZ16236QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)boots as they are water proof and SOOOOO much easier than buckets! (the large sized once are HUGE by the way!)

You could do it with shoes on, but by the sound of it, there's not much feet left to attach them to! So I would be looking at having the shoes off, at least for a month or so. How you get the horse to cope thought might be difficult. but if he's lame with his shoes on, he's probably not going to be much lamer without. If you need to ride you could by boots but they are expensive (the easy boots are cheap but not suitable for longer term riding). If money isn't an option, or your considering barefoot for the longer term (would be worth looking into) then buying four proper barefoot boots (boa's, G2 etc) would be the best way to go.

I think I would be turing him out on soft-ish ground and telling him to get on with, bring him in at night into a dry bed after having soaked his feet for 20mins. If to begin with he's very sore, you could wrap his feet in a nappy (el cheapo own brand ones are perfect) and putting the poltice boots on top for turnout.

I suspect you'll be look at at least 6weeks, so you might want to cancel any planned comps:o

[Julz]

Here's the link

http://www.performancebarefoot.co.uk/page26.html

story about Sophie, there are other stories too.


Personally wouldnt be soaking feet again, as repeated soaking as you have discoverd, causes problems.... esp with detergents

[Trio]

i agree that taking the shoes off is the best option if he's lame anyway. See how he copes with it and take it from there. Thos poultice boots look great- will have to invest in some of those myself

[Julz]

Have a look at Millie's story....so sad...euthanasia was mentioned....

[Pink's lady]

Getting the feet wet won't do any harm to the foot if it's healthy. The horn is made of mostly water, so more water won't do any damage. The nasty bacteria that Jay.O horses hoof walls probably have WILL however cause problems, and they can only be killed off by soaking to get at them. Systemic antibiotics won't get there.

Horses constantly soak their own feet just being out in a field - traisping through rivers, standing in wet grass, drying out on sand etc. Their feet are designed to cope, just not with a hoof infection there too.

[Julz]

I dont agree...constant wetting and drying DOES harm the hoof...
it expands when wet, the contracts when drying...this causes the hoof to split..IF there is an infection, fair goes, but IF there isnt, it will only do more harm than good... in OPs case. it doesnt sound like there is any infection, just that he has TB feet, and needs a rest from constant nail driving.... hence the barefoot trimmer - the site was only to make people aware of what a proper barefoot trim (and not a farrier trim) can do for bad feet, to get them healthy again.

Their feet may well be "designed" to cope, but bad breeding often takes this away.... the foot should not be made any wetter than nature intended, and asking your horse to stand in liquids/water everyday for two weeks is going against nature...

[Pink's lady]

Not really. My lot (inc a TBx and standardbred) will stand in the river on dry days to soak thier own feet.

Breed shouldn't really come into it. TB (and standardbreds) have crap feet cos they've been shod far too young usually. They can and do have good feet it properly looked after, feed properly and given a chance to heal.

Their feet expand and contract thousands of times a day, every single time they lift and drop a foot. Soaking them won't do much worse. In fact soaking their feet to rehydrate them in very dry weather (as if we ever have that in this counrty:rolleyes: ) is reccomended. I soak my lots feet in the summer if I don't think they're been standing in the river enough.

If Jay.O horses feet are crumbling away them it's more than shoes causing it. My TBx and my Standrdbred has been shod all their lives and their feet have never crumbled. Except the one time Kim had WLD and her feet cracked. She had her shoes off and feet soaked for a week and they haven't cracked since.

Taking jay.O's horses hoses off won't do much good unless any infection is addressed first. That can only be done with soaking with a disinfectant. In fact, the feet with just crumble away even more.

[Julz]

Well, you do what you feel is right, and I'll do the same. But i've seen enough foot problems to know what Im talking about.

Agree to disagree.

[angelfben]

Just found this, it's actually fascinating stuff!

The effect of Climatic Conditions on Hoof Horn

Hoof horn is at its strongest and most durable when it has a stabilised moisture content of around 25%. Unfortunately here in Western Europe most horse-owners, seeing hooves in this condition, would pronounce them to be too dry. But that is exactly as they should be to withstand the stresses of work and shoeing. Even if the moisture content of horn cannot be maintained at this sort of level it is essential to control and stabilise moisture at a constant level otherwise cracking will occur.

Because of the climatic conditions in this country, wet Winters and then Summers interspersed with wet and dry periods, hoof horn is certainly too wet for probably five or six months of the year, starting when the hooves are saturated with water from high Winter rainfall.

When hoof horn is saturated it swells to accommodate excess water molecules. The swelling causes the surface cracks and defects to disappear leading the uninformed observer to believe hooves are at their best when they are wet. Although they may look better, the horn is actually very weak when saturated with water – just like your keratin based fingernails after you have sat in the bath for too long, when they can be easily bent and torn. Everyone has heard tales of shoes being ‘sucked’ off in the mud. Well, for a start it is physically impossible for mud to exert sufficient suction on a properly fixed horseshoe to pull it off, but it is easy for a shoe to be twisted off a water saturated hoof when it goes down through the mud onto hardcore. You would be amazed to see the number of old horseshoes dug out when renovating the surface of gateways on popular hunting routes.

Given that hoof horn is strongest when it has a low moisture content of 25% one might assume that as hooves dry out after a wet Winter that they will become stronger as they dry. In reality we all know that the reverse is more normal with the hooves becoming brittle and cracking. How can this be? Is it genetic? Partly, maybe, in certain breeds. Is it Nutritional? Usually not. The simple answer, coming from extensive scientific research, is that it is caused by a change in the molecular structure resulting from excess water drying out of the horn too quickly.

In non-technical terms imagine hoof horn to be made up of blocks (keratin molecules) held together with cement (intermolecular bonds). When the hoof takes on excess water the water molecules force the blocks apart and stretch the cement making the hoof weaker.

When the hoof dries out too quickly the ‘blocks’ move partly back into place, but the ‘cement’ is damaged and there are gaps between the ‘blocks’. The lack of integrity of the molecular structure causes the hoof to crack and split under stress. A complication when the hoof is in this condition comes from the horn being more porous and easily absorbing water. This again swells the hoof and on a hot day it will dry too quickly, setting in motion the wet/dry cycle that is so damaging.

A further problem occurs when horn splits and cracks in Summer and the first thought is to soak the hoof in water to introduce some moisture. We now know that this is totally contraindicated because it exacerbates the whole problem. Soaking the already damaged hoof horn on a warm day causes the horn to initially swell to accommodate the water molecules and then during the heat of the day all the newly introduced water dries out and the hoof shrinks back again causing further damage to the molecular structure. Hosing or tubbing dry brittle hooves will only exacerbate a problem that was caused by water in the first place and is definitely not recommended.

If it were possible to dry saturated horn slowly and in a controlled way over several weeks the molecular structure would rebuild itself to become both dry and strong, but that of course is totally impractical. It must be understood that there is a big difference between dry horn with a low moisture content and dry brittle horn that has been damaged during rapid drying out. Most people in this country will only normally see the latter, but unfortunately this condition has become synonymous with the warmer conditions in Summer and is now generally accepted as a normal occurrence, which of course science has proved otherwise.

Another important factor to consider is the way in which certain breeds are very much compromised by living in wet climates. The Thoroughbred for instance has only existed in this country for around three hundred years and before that its male ancestors, the three Arab stallions, came from a desert. Again it seems to be part of tradition that Thoroughbred hooves are expected to break up in Summer – and they do with alacrity and they probably have done so each year since breeding started in the 1700’s.

[angelfben]

And continues..

Science has clarified the cause and effect of environmental water on hoof horn and furthermore has provided the products to repair and protect it.

For many years, centuries even, there was little more available within the Hoofcare armoury than concoctions of different oils and greases, but now not only has research shown that these products are mostly contraindicated and can actually damage hoof horn, but also many farriers and Vets. are actively persuading their clients against their use.

Undoubtedly, some of these oily hoof preparations can give the hoof a pleasing and shiny appearance, but these marginal benefits do still have an adverse effect on the molecular structure of hoof horn and as you will have read earlier it has more than enough to cope with environmentally without further damage being caused by well meant, but inappropriate treatments.

So if oil and grease have become the tradition what is the future?

Keratex, who are at the forefront of modern Hoofcare have two specific products that have been specially developed to repair and protect hooves against the effects of environmental influences.

Keratex Hoof Hardener is the only product that actually repairs the molecular structure of hoof horn after it has been weakened by the effects of water. It does this by a process called cross linking and adds atoms to repair the intermolecular bonds which support the molecules of keratin that make up the major part of hoof horn and give it optimum strength.

Having recognised that water is one of the main culprits in the cycle that weakens hoof horn Keratex developed Hoof Gel and this actually provides a protection to the whole hoof capsule that works in the same way as the ‘breathing’ fabrics used for country clothing.

Hoof Gel stops all types of moisture, including urine, from entering the hoof, but it still allows air into the hoof and lets gases and excess moisture out. But it has many other benefits. It disinfects the hoof with every application and by preventing environmental water getting into the hoof it keeps the hoof capsule more healthy by excluding the organisms that cause such conditions as seedy toe, white line disease, thrush etc. as these are all carried into the hoof in absorbed environmental water. The result is that the hoof is virtually cocooned in an invisible coating that protects the horn and other hoof tissue without compromising any of the natural functions, so that the hoof develops to be naturally stronger and healthier. It also makes the hooves easier to clean, by shrugging off water and mud, and helps stop matter adhering to the sole and frog.

Due to the influence of environmental factors in Western Europe the molecular structure of most horses hooves will be in some way affected and the symptoms may range from slight cracking around the nail holes to frequently lost shoes and ripped away hoof wall.

Because the horn structure usually needs repairing we would always start treatment with Keratex Hoof Hardener and then follow up with Keratex Hoof Gel as an on going maintenance and protection throughout summer and winter. We have found the following regime gives the best results on all conditions of horn. Read the instructions fully, but use the following application frequency:

Start off with Keratex Hoof Hardener over six weeks with the following frequency:

(For general use Keratex Hoof Hardener is best applied in the morning after the horse has been brought in for the night and the hooves have had a chance to dry off.)

Hoof Wall: Every day for the entire six weeks

Sole: Week 1: Every day
Week 2: Every other day
Week 3: Twice
Weeks 4 & 5: Once
Week 6: Every day

Week 6: Bring the horse in onto a clean dry bed and keep it in for a full seven days.
This is to allow the hoof structure to dry out thoroughly and hopefully revert
to a moisture content of around 25%. During this week do not allow the horse
out at all if possible and certainly not on grass or anywhere in the slightest
bit damp. Keep the bed scrupulously clean and dry.

At the end of the sixth week after the horse has been kept in, and immediately after the last application of Hoof Hardener has dried, start applying Keratex Hoof Gel every day during winter or wet weather and two or three times a week in dry weather. Remember early morning dew preceding a hot sunny day can be quite damaging if it is absorbed into the horn and then quickly dried in the heat of the day, so continue using Hoof Gel all year round. Use Hoof Gel over the whole hoof, walls, sole, frog and heels

For those of you worried about appearance for showing or special events then that is easy with Hoof Gel. Just allow it to dry fully and then rub gently with a soft shoe brush. The result is a perfect natural shine that does not pick up grass or bedding. Apart from that farriers, vets and show judges will appreciate not getting oil all over their hands!

This regime can be started at any time of the year, but it is of paramount importance to get the hooves absolutely dry before starting with Hoof Gel.

One final point. Keratex Hoof Hardener is a very advanced, and patented, formulation designed specifically for use on hoof horn and because of the way it works, by adding atoms into the structure, it is impossible to over harden the horn. Some of our customers have been told by their farriers that the hoof is getting too hard, but this is not the case. Unfortunately many farriers are so used to working on soft water saturated horn, which is very easy to cut, that when the horn is at the correct moisture content they notice it is much harder to work on. Hard, dry horn is strong horn and should not be confused with the dry brittle horn that occurs after winter water dries out during hot weather

[KateWooten]

weellll... the soaking issue depends crucially on whether you've nailed rigid metal plates to their feet doen't it ? I mean, barefoot, obviously, expand-contract-expand is beneficial - you're wanting to promote an active, flexible, robust foot. If you go nail a non-expanding piece of iron then obviously every expand-contract cycle is going to tear away at the poor foot - for sure the iron shoe isn't going to bear the brunt of that strain !

Back to the OP ... the shoes in this context are not working, so I'd get rid of them if I were you. Save the money and invest in huge truckloads of gravel to give him a dry rough surface to walk over in his daily life ... and start building up a tough, robust hoof. You can't do an awful lot about the wet, and the constant wet-dry cycle in England ... but there are hoofs there that naturally cope well with it.

[Horsewoman]

Hello, long time no speak! Hope everyone is well..

Problem: Have a thoroughbred, with typical thoroughbred feet - terrible. With this weather recently, warm then wet then warm and wet again, his feet were horrendous! Crumbling so badly that his front shoes were falling off after only 4-5weeks. He was lame (understandably). Farrier came out and replaced them. He was lame for 7 days (still is now) and his shoe was loose (after only 6 days!!). Farrier came back this morning and replaced the shoe putting the holes lower down his feet. He said he put them higher becuase it would hold the show on longer, but he put them too high he could barely walk.

He used to have natural balance shoes on but apparently they can cause the foot to crumble because the lack of support? So last Thursday different shoes went on.. ones with side supports? Very similar to regular back shoes.

With his feet the way they are, I am so temped to take off his shoes at the front and buy his Equi Boots to wear for a few weeks to get his feet to grow down and strengthen. Only problem is, I know how footsore he gets... but then again, it cant be much worse than how he is now?

Help me...

Obviously you should take proessional advice on this but a friend with similar problems (and in consultation with her farrier) went shoeless for several months until the hooves recovered and then went back to shoes when the hooves were sound. She had the feet trimmed regularly by the farrier and used one of the hoof supplements. She also used a dab of cornucrescine every night when the horse came in from the field. The feet came right after about 6 months and in the intervening 3 years there hasn't been a repaeat.

Hoves are like our nails and hair. They can get out of condition if something is missing in the diet so a supplement may help. Remember, though that they have to grow out. No amount of supplement or hoof ointment is going to repair the damage already done.

[angelfben]

I think I would struggle with the whole "keep him in for 7 days on a dry bed" bit but generally it seems quite sound advice. And no believe it or not it was not written by anyone with any connections to Keratex :p

I will have a look who DID write it though if you're interetsed.

[KateWooten]

horsewoman .. why did your friend go back to shoes when the horse's hoofs had recovered sufficiently ? I'm still struggling with this issue. I said I'd keep my youngsters barefoot 'for as long as possible' ... but they're 5 now and I haven't come up with any reason for putting shoes on. What signs do people see that they feel would be helped with shoes ?

[Yann]

Tess the Tb wasn't losing shoes but her walls were paper thin, grew slowly and her front feet were badly flared. I took her shoes off 12 months ago and although she's still not capable of being ridden over difficult surfaces without boots her feet are miles better than they were and a farrier wouldn't struggle to nail a shoe to them any more. Giving the feet a rest from shoes is the only sure fire way to strengthen them, but it takes time and effort. Boots and pads are a must even if it's just to get you between the field and the stable in the early days.

There's no need to soak hooves in this country, even in high summer during good weather the grass gets soaked by dew every morning.

[angelfben]

Alps had no shoes at all when I got him (he's had them taken off when they turned him away). I had them put back on as he was a bit hobbly hacking on roads but come winter I took the backs off and he was fine so I left them off. I pondered having the fronts off as well but whenever he has lost a shoe he is hopping-lame foot-sore on it on any stones (a lot of our roads and actually our yard surface is very stony :rolleyes: ) for weeks until I could track down my farrier to put it back on. That's why I have shoes on, I'd love not to as it would save me a fortune in shoeing bills!

[Blackhorse]

Farriers formular in the feed and Kevin Bacon hoof care.

Used both of these on Gaetano for the last month due to losing shoes and not enough foot to nail it back to. He has been in his box for 5 weeks and he is not much better and can go out again next week.

I did not think 5 weeks would be enough to fix his problem.:D:D

[Julz]

"A further problem occurs when horn splits and cracks in Summer and the first thought is to soak the hoof in water to introduce some moisture. We now know that this is totally contraindicated because it exacerbates the whole problem. Soaking the already damaged hoof horn on a warm day causes the horn to initially swell to accommodate the water molecules and then during the heat of the day all the newly introduced water dries out and the hoof shrinks back again causing further damage to the molecular structure. Hosing or tubbing dry brittle hooves will only exacerbate a problem that was caused by water in the first place and is definitely not recommended."

this is what i was trying to say, but this article says it much better!!!!

[KateWooten]

Water doesn't cause the problem. Attaching a flexing structure to a rigid, unyielding one causes the problems.

About being ouchy on gravel and roads ... if a hoof has been protected - raised up by a shoe ... then it will not be building up resistance - callouses. When the shoe falls off, then he'll be ouchy on gravel. It takes time for his foot to toughen up and get used to the rough surfaces. When a shod horse loses a shoe, his reaction to rough surfaces can't be taken as an indication of what sort of feet he has, e.g. "the sort that need shoes", it's merely an indication of how his feet are right now - which is, they're thin-soled and ouchy just as you'd expect from feet that have not been allowed to develop callouses !

[Julz]

this has gone off topic

[coss]

Water doesn't cause the problem. Attaching a flexing structure to a rigid, unyielding one causes the problems.

About being ouchy on gravel and roads ... if a hoof has been protected - raised up by a shoe ... then it will not be building up resistance - callouses. When the shoe falls off, then he'll be ouchy on gravel. It takes time for his foot to toughen up and get used to the rough surfaces. When a shod horse loses a shoe, his reaction to rough surfaces can't be taken as an indication of what sort of feet he has, e.g. "the sort that need shoes", it's merely an indication of how his feet are right now - which is, they're thin-soled and ouchy just as you'd expect from feet that have not been allowed to develop callouses !

this completely makes sense but my mare had shoes removed last year and was more confident on rough ground after they were removed than before the shoes went on. it was as if her feet were harder against the stones :confused:

to the OP - i think you should take the shoes off. they aren't helping at the moment and his feet need to recover over a period of months. you may find by the time his hooves are "ready" to have shoes that his feet will be ready to go barefoot.

[Jay.o]

Thanks for all your views and advice... Though some contradicting views, I can see both points which is why Im still confused.

I think it is agreed to take the shoes off, yes? Then to soak them in antibacterial stuff for a couple of weeks? Soaking a shod hoof will make the problem worse as I understand from this, contracting etc whilst nailed to a metal shoe causes cracking in a weak hoof.

I need some sort of support for his hoof, so a poltice boot or equi boot is a muist. Can I use those boots pictured for everyday turnout and riding? I thoiught they were purely for medicinal purposes? And the same with Equi boots. Only problem is, with the mud, how well do they stay on?

Thanks for all these replies, has been a great help.

[shandy84]

Jay.O have you spoken to your vet or farrier about taking his shoes off?

[Pink's lady]

Shoes off seems to be the only option left to you! (unless you get glue ons)

Soaking (contraversial or not) is the only way to kill off WLD, which I highly suspect he has (black crumbly white line, brittle, cracking hooves etc).

The poltice boots would be OK for short term turn out - Kim wore hers for three days 24/7 and with a wash it was good as new. They're not designed for that though and she only had hers on to keep a polutice on (can't be stabled). They wouldn't survive being one anything other than grass and certainly not for ridden. They are also horrifically slippy. They give no padding or protection, just keep the feet clean and dry. They are however perfect for soaking - buckets are such a pain in the ass! You could buy 2 (less then £15) and do fronts then backs.

Some of the hoof boots aren't suitable for more than an emergency. Others can be worn for much longer. All can be ridden in. They are however expensive! You'd be looking at probably £200 for a set of four. Have a look at the selection here (http://www.easycareinc.com/education/whatboot.aspx).

I think they would be your best bet though. He could be turned out in them (not 24/7 though) and definintly can be ridden in them. They cope just fine with mud (gaiters are pretty much essential for that though) and scrub up brilliantly. They are very tough and don't come off easily (if they fit) They can also get studs in for grass work.

You might not need support for his feet in turn out on grass. If he's no more lame than with shoes on, I'd just leave him with nothing on at turn out. You couldn't ride him though. He may not even need hide boots for riding if your lucky.

[KateWooten]

this has gone off topic

:D :D :D ... No ... it has diverged from your viewpoint !

yes, Jay.o, take shoes off and give him every chance to recover. The moisture cycle is an inevitable fact of life, and the posted article quite rightly started out acknowledging that if we're to manage the hefty task of fixing the moisture-absorbing flexible adaptive living hoof, to an inflexible inanimate hunk of metal - then we're going to have problems and we have to run ourselves ragged apply different potions and generally having to fight the whole thing.

Take his shoes off. Go investigate what is actually happening these days in barefoot trimming. Go find out how to manage his current weakened hoofs effectively (hoof boots, etc) whilst getting busy with the process of toughening them up - gentle work over lightly abrasive surfaces, gradually building up to hefty work over horrendous rocks :)

In going barefoot, you want the horse to moving as much as he can takt - and you're prepared to move heaven and hell to facilitate this - for example using boots so that he's never afraid to take a step, abandoning the whole concept of a stable, turning him out into an established herd on varied terrain, and letting him run move and forage.

Well.. as much of that as you can manage, obviously !

[Jay.o]

Shandy, my farrier came today and siad becuase he is lame anyway, not a lot of point taking shoes off becuase he'll be worse. I said about it and just he siad that the barefoot shoes cost a lot of money and try these shoes out until the weekend and go from there, but to be honest Im not hopeful. Its a shame becuase he is a good farrier, he sorted out mysy's feet and got bens to a decent state when i first got him and now this..

[coss]

forgot to say Jay.o ... you said he'd put on shoes that are like hinds on the fronts, is this the American Square toed shoing coming in? i would have thought with clasps on both sides it is taking more of the hoof off so not so good.

my mare had NB shoes and my farrier said he preferred them as it allows the hoof to do more and most importantly with my mare her toe could do what it liked (ie keep growing faster than the rest of the hoof) and i don't see how the shoes you mentioned really support the hoof... maybe that is just me though :confused:

[shandy84]

It doesn't sound so good, but perhaps it would be worth investigating no nail shoes if he's sure that he'll be in more pain without them? Also maybe ask him about infection and ask if you need to get the vet in?

[angelfben]

Water doesn't cause the problem. Attaching a flexing structure to a rigid, unyielding one causes the problems.

About being ouchy on gravel and roads ... if a hoof has been protected - raised up by a shoe ... then it will not be building up resistance - callouses. When the shoe falls off, then he'll be ouchy on gravel. It takes time for his foot to toughen up and get used to the rough surfaces. When a shod horse loses a shoe, his reaction to rough surfaces can't be taken as an indication of what sort of feet he has, e.g. "the sort that need shoes", it's merely an indication of how his feet are right now - which is, they're thin-soled and ouchy just as you'd expect from feet that have not been allowed to develop callouses !

Yes I agree, but he has had shoes on for most of his life (I'm assuming before I got him) and was shoeless for 12 months before I got him and was still ouchy on front on anything off grass so I can't see much hope for the beast to be in work and shoeless on front really :o

[KateWooten]

ooops - sorry - completely misread your post !!! You have to be very proactive in managing the transitioning. If the old owners simply took the shoes off and waited fingers crossed, then no, - he's not going to have developed rock-crushing hoofs. You have to have a plan.... and boots .... and committment. But one things for sure - shoes are leading directly to the problems you're seeing by not allowing the hoof structure to flex. Barefoot could be the way to go ? It's amazing what a very small difference in the trim can do even - I had one of mine just with a farrier's 'pasture trim' for 12 months during which time he was started under saddle, and within 6 months was hopping lame. I changed my trimmer for a more educated barefooter and he's never taken a lame step since.

Yann's story is well worth doing a search on since he's also battled with TB feet in really poor condition, hasn't he ?

[Jay.o]

Anyone know of any barefoot trimmers around berkshire area? Preferable near Reading? This this is the way to go...

[Bebe]

I'm a bit lost as to what barefoot shoes are :confused: Do you mean hoof boots?

I dont agree...constant wetting and drying DOES harm the hoof...
it expands when wet, the contracts when drying...this causes the hoof to split..IF there is an infection, fair goes, but IF there isnt, it will only do more harm than good...

The hoof will only split if it's not trimmed in balance.

My mare's currently living out on a field that has an inch of standing water in most areas. Her hooves don't crack, chip or do anything similar, because I keep them in balance.

Constant wet can soften the hooves but in and of itself it doesn't cause the majority of the problems people seem to think unless the hoof is less than healthy to begin with.

[Jay.o]

Yes Bebe, hoof boots.

I know the water and drying shouldnt damage hooves as much as it has done, but at the end of the day it has. His feet weren't in great condition to begin with, but him being 12 and me having had him for 9 months, I didn thave a lot of input to his farrier work and trimming. I am trying my best to sort out this problem for him.

Horse have different feet, obviously. My old mare, same as yours could do what she wanted, stand in bogs, water and be bone dry and didnt have a single problem... Ben cant

[tasha]

Farriers formular in the feed and Kevin Bacon hoof care.


Where did you get the Kevin Bacon stuff from? Im rapidly running out and havent seen it anywhere to buy it! Thanks!

[angelfben]

Where did you get the Kevin Bacon stuff from? Im rapidly running out and havent seen it anywhere to buy it! Thanks!

http://www.equestrian-country.co.uk/category-221.html
http://www.4dobbin.com/productDetail.aspx?product_id=2722
http://www.farriersupplies.co.uk/Hoof%20Care%20Products.html

[Julz]

Kevin Bacon, you can ask your farrier to get it for you..it's really expensive though...have found Effol to be just as good.

[teabiscuit]

i like effol too

[Zingy]

If you're fields are wet & muddy which is likely in tis weather, I wouldn't go for glue on shoes. I asked my farrier about them once and he said he'd be happy to put them on, as long as I'd be happy to spend a fortune on having my horse shod for about 5 mins until he pulled them all off in the mud:eek:

I'd definitely vote for barefoot with hoof boots, though I've never had bad feet to contend with, but anything has to be better than sticking holes in poor feet with nail on shoes.

[tasha]

Thanks! Hooray!

[DebO]

Hi

I've had my id/tb on farriers formula for the last 6 weeks because of similar problems.

DebO

[Bebe]

Horse have different feet, obviously. My old mare, same as yours could do what she wanted, stand in bogs, water and be bone dry and didnt have a single problem... Ben cant

My point was more that my mare couldn't do this before as her hooves weren't healthy enough. It's taken a long time and a lot of effort but she can now. You aren't necessarily stuck with him having poor hooves indefinitely.

Hoof boots are initially an expensive purchase but they're usually a one off cost and pay for themselves quite quickly when you compare their cost to the cost of having the horse shod a couple of times. If you do decide to go with boots I can highly recommend Lucy at www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk, she offers a boot hire service which has saved me a fair bit of money and she also has a wealth of advice on boot fit & suitability.

[Yann]

My Tb with poor feet stands in the same bogs as Bebe's horse but since the nail holes grew out and she's been properly trimmed I've had no issues with cracking and chipping either.

[Jay.o]

Looks like I should be getting them off, but against what my farrier thinks? If only you lot could see how bad he is a walking and the weakness of his feet... I need some first hand advice aswell i think.

But update on supplements etc, have gone a bouight a massive tub of farriers Formula, set me back a few pennies...

Silly question and I think i know the answer, but, can i leave back shoes on and take fronts off? Even if its for a few days or will this totally unbalance him?

[Bebe]

Back shoes off and fronts on is a no-no according to many bodyworkers but my mare managed just fine like that for about a year and many other horses do also. It's worth a go.

The first time my mares shoes came off all round she was so lame I cried, although to be fair she was almost as lame in the shoes (and I cried then too). I buted her and kept her out on the soft ground as much as I possibly could.

The difference in her comfort levels when the farrier took her shoes off compared to when an EP took her shoes off and trimmed was worlds apart. She was crippled with the farrier, looked mildly bemused and a bit unsure of where her feet were with the EP. It's definitely worth getting someone who specialises in rehabbing difficult horses hooves to have a look, invariably they're able to provide more help and support through the difficult stages than a farrier.

EPs can be found here:
http://www.epauk.org/findep.php

UKNHCP trimmers here:
http://www.uknhcp.org/locateapractioner.html

Trimmers often cover a much wider area than you may think so it's worth contacting one even if they're not exactly local.

[coss]

i've never heard of back shoes staying on and fronts coming off and woiuld have thought it would be unbalancing.

[Bebe]

i've never heard of back shoes staying on and fronts coming off and woiuld have thought it would be unbalancing.

I transposed it to front on and backs off in my head when I read it - oops.

In theory I don't suppose its any different to backs off, fronts on but I've never known anyone to do it in practice.

[coss]

I transposed it to front on and backs off in my head when I read it - oops.

In theory I don't suppose its any different to backs off, fronts on but I've never known anyone to do it in practice.

i thought the reason fronts normally stay on without backs is because 60% of the horse's weight is generally carried by the fronts therefore their fronts get more punishment, maybe putting shoes on fronts lifts the front end a bit but i'm not sure.

[Jay.o]

I just thought maybe the transition would be easier for him. He is so sore infront anyway, taking the shoes off couldnt really make it any worse in my books, but who knows. He seems ok behind, but if they are taken off, I am sure he'll be sore. Thought two at a time would be easier on him than four. And becuase his fronts are the worse they would come off first.. looks like all four at once.

First few days, in or out? I have a stable kitted out with rubber matting, or a field quite a walk away down a stoney uneven track. Looking for some equi boots today to put on going down the track and off again for turnout..

[coss]

providing the flooring is soft (i don't know how cushioned rubber is) i would maybe say keep in as the walk to the field could be painful. getting some equiboots so he can be out would be ideal though.

[Cheeky]

Honey has Tb feet (was hoping for Connemara Feet .. ah well). She has White Line Disease .. crumbley feet, etc ..

I was going to go for shoes .. but thankfully someone helped me and gave me the best advice. I put her straight onto a feed with Biotin supliment. And also she now wears Old Macs .. when we ride, and sometimes in the paddock ..

I hope that helps :)

[herondell]

i have both my broodmares on formula 4 feet as one mares hoofs was in a bad condition and the other one a bad crack going up to the top they have been on it for 6 weeks now and i can not belive how much the hoofs have grown im well happy with formula 4 feet now i have the pony that gets laminitis on it now its by equilife if you want to look it up.

[KateWooten]

Boot him up FIRST. Boot him up so that he can move about. Never restrict his movement. It's all about movement. If he's out in the pasture, and too sore to move, he'll stand still. So the worst case scenario in the field is that he's not moving - which is the best you could hope for if you left him in. EasyBoots are talked of as about the best hoof boots - with the gaiters.

As for going against your farrier's wishes .... you'll have to decide. As far as I can see - you have in front of you the evidence of how good his advice is. This is where it leads. Do you like it ? How's the search for a AANHCP / EP trimmer going ? Any leads yet ? If you find one, find out their fav. drink and candy and spoil them rotten. A good barefoot trimmer is worth his/her weight in gold - make sure you're their favourite customer. Mine is visiting today - I shall be baking all morning :D

[Julz]

Your farrier can only guide you.... it's your decision that makes the difference.... and he must go with it...

[Roofio]

I totally sympathise with you and your poor hoss, bad feet are a heartbreaking nightmare. the weather is wrecking my boys feet and in theory i should be going barefoot but i just can't bring myself to put him through the pain i know he would be in if i tried, not yet anyway.

i dont really have anything to add, but i hope it works out for you both, best of luck :)

[senjj]

Where are you based. I should be able to help you with an EP.

[MelanieD]

Since he's already sore even in shoes I'd be tempted to try him barefoot, but only with an experienced trimmer because you are likely to need lots of advice on treating infection and boots and pads, conditioning etc to improve the feet. Boots and pads can do a very good job of keeping them comfortable so it might not be too bad. Some horses even turn out to be less sore once the shoes are off so well worth a try.

I've seen cr*p TB feet turn into nice feet barefoot, its a great way to improve the feet even if you do want to go back to shoes longer term.

You can soak in borax even with shoes on so might be worth trying even if you don't want to go barefoot. What I've found with mine is that even without soaking at all (one unhandled horsie with minging feet and one tempremental baggage that didn't like getting wet persuaded me to try not soaking) well trimmed feet, no shoes, the right diet (its worth trying magnesium and reducing the amount of sugary stuff even with TBs) and hard ground gets rid of any hoof wall infection pretty quickly, but if you can't get everything right straight away then soaking with something to kill off as much infection as possible at least keeps it under control a bit. Soaking every day is excessive IMO, I wouldn't do more than a couple of times a week.

[Jay.o]

Thanks senjj, I am in Reading area, Berkshire.

Thanks for all the great responses and advice, will give an update shortly about what has been happening over the weekend.

[Fizz]

horse on my yard has just had his shoes take off due to crumbling feet which have gotten so bad he looses shoes within a day of being shod.

they are looking at a min of 8 weeks before he can possibly be shod again.

[senjj]

Helen Thompson is on your doorstep!! Her details are on the find an EP page here: www.epauk.org She's great!

[clarabella_78]

I totally sympathise with you and your poor hoss, bad feet are a heartbreaking nightmare. the weather is wrecking my boys feet and in theory i should be going barefoot but i just can't bring myself to put him through the pain i know he would be in if i tried, not yet anyway.

i dont really have anything to add, but i hope it works out for you both, best of luck :)


ditto Roofio - I'll be interested to see how this turns out. My boy (TB) is getting crumbly feet too. I've got him on farrier's formula, and I apply cornucrescine every other day. I dont know what I'm doing wrong - I've been blaming weather, and there seems to be evidence of hoof problems in the past according to the farrier. He's only had his shoes on 5 weeks and I need the farrier again. The nail holes are crumbly and I'm really not sure what to do for the best. My farrier doesn't believe in barefoot, so maybe I need someone else... :confused:

[Yann]

He's only had his shoes on 5 weeks

That's actually not an unreasonable shoeing interval for a lot of horses at this time of year :)

[senjj]

Horses in shoes may well benefit from the life data labs hoof disinfectant. Worth a try?

[clarabella_78]

That's actually not an unreasonable shoeing interval for a lot of horses at this time of year :)


Thanks Yann, that's good to know. Does it slow down in winter?

[Yann]

It does, yes :)

[Boffin]

Sorry to join this late but I've been away.

There seem to be some very contradictory, and if as a scientist I might say very unscientific comments about the effects of water on hooves.

A couple of examples to start with. As you all will no doubt know horses evolved principally as creatures of arid areas. They may be hot, as in dessert areas or very cold as in central - Eastern Europe but they are all dry.

If you take a horse or donkey to the tropics they soon have their feet fall off from various infections into the softened horn. The issue is water not heat as this doesn't usually happen in desserts. This happens more slowly in cooler climates but it can happen fast enough if its wet and warm, as perhaps we are seeing this year here. Certainly there seem to be far more problems than in the last couple of years.

I said above this doesn't usually happen in desserts. Well it didn't until about 15 years ago when large scale water desalination installations allowed certain wealthy thoroughbred stables in the Middle East to start having some relatively green (and wet) pastures because they looked rather nice. The horses were on and off these areas with their feet swelling and then drying out and all sorts of previously rare problems started to appear. I don't know anyone who now thinks it a coincidence. The introduction of water was the problem.

Another thing to bear in mind about damage to hooves is that it can take a long time to appear. The damage we are seeing grow through today may be due to insults that happened months ago. Its very risky to correlate what you are seeing today with the recent weather conditions. Drying for example may just show up cracks that formed some time ago in wetter conditions but weren't apparent because of the relatively swollen state of the horn. OK wetting them again or using moisturising creams may make the damage less apparent, but its just camouflage, it isn't resolving the underlying problem.

As for water or moisture getting rid of bacteria, well I don't want to sound impolite but lets just say that bacteria don't grow at all well in dry conditions they need the water. In fact they really like the wet swollen horn as it makes it easier for the enzymes they exude into the horn matrix to work and dissolve the horn so the bacteria can absorb the predigested peptide soup they make.

A couple of further points. The long extracts published earlier on this thread were originally published by a farrier, Bill Mayfield, but were essentially written by Colin Reeves of Keratex. The reference link is below
http://www.wisconsinwalkinghorse.org/articles/harden_hoofs.html

As some of you will be aware Colin Reeves has been very anti the barefoot philosophy, basically I think because Keratex makes hooves far too hard and brittle if its overused.

EnduranceGB barefoot 2004 champion Les Spark has extensively trialled an alternative product which he claims has resulted in him having no competitive veterinary failures for damaged hooves in the last three years. And he rides a serious number of miles. Have a look at the barefoot sections of his website, he has loads of useful experience and is very friendly and helpful if you care to contact him, try the link below.
http://www.fnesaddles.com/Hooves-Barefoot.shtml

[gingeremmie]

Re the front shoes off back shoes on thing, from what you've said I would be looking at it the other way round. He's doing ok on his backs when shod therefore he's more likely to do well on his backs unshod.

The fact that he's lame and sore in front is worrying. Why is he lame in shoes? Is the cracking enough to make him lame or is there something else going on? Laminitis? (yes TBs can get laminitis) Imbalance?

I don't see how you can keep him in shoes if he's losing them madly and cracking and chipping. You will need hoof boots though from the moment the shoes are taken off as it would be unfair to expect him to cope without them. You may find that your trimmer can sell or lend you a pair as you may find he needs a different size in the future.

Have you decided what you're going to do? Have you got in touch with a trimmer?

[Roofio]

just a quickie to say my horse is currently shod behind, barefoot in front so if thats the way thats suggested to proceed, don't worry too much :)

[Bronya]

From someone who's been there....

TB feet, constant wet field last winter. No obvious disintegration because no shoes, but her hooves and soles became very soft, and all she was doing was 30 min in the sand school once a day with the rest spent out at grass. They were so soft they trimmed themselves all winter - there was nothing for the farrier to trim, he just did the frog whenever it started to peel. I have since read a very interesting article that links constantly wet, saturated hooves to laminitis via the damage the constant wet does to the internal structure of the hoof. Basically everything becomes weak and weakly attached. Eventually, that's exactly what happened to her. She became footy at first on stony ground because her feet were soft, but not really bad. Then it got worse and turned into the beginnings of laminitis. Luckily it was caught before it became really bad but it took a long time before they were healed. We had a barefoot guy out (UKNHCP school but also a farrier) and he said that basically her hooves needed time to regrow and sort themselves out. Even now, with the regrowth most of the way down the hoof, she's grass sensitive, something she NEVER was before. You used to be able to turn her out into knee high grass, 24/7 and she would be absolutely fine. Now she wears a muzzle, is out daytime only and on sparse grazing.

What was important at the time was getting her hooves out of the constant wet. They hardened within days once she was in, and then began to sort themselves out. If you turn out a horse, shoeless and without boots etc to protect it, where the horn is crumbling due to the wet conditions, it isn't going to help. The shoes while on help prevent too much wear underneath, without them, the hoof can become very short (hers did). At least that's how it was explained to me.

Just to add - if really footy in front I would bring in NOW and keep in for a few days on hay only, no treats, no sugar of any kind, and check for lami. That's how my horse's lami started...

[Horselover73]

Jay.O

Don't remove the shoes they will just make him sore and the feet will wear down faster. Look into supplements and specific hoof oils that can help. My horse had bad feet. I kept her shoes on and added suplements and hoof oils. Now there are no worries. Try that before doing anything drastice like removing the shoes.

Bronya
You forgot to mention the care you give to your horses feet yourselves. That caused some mechanical laminitis. Remember its not always caused by grass. Rasping the feet incorrectly can also cause that. She is still not sensitive to grass. LEAVE HER FEET ALONE BRONYA then she will be fine.

[Roofio]

Jay.O

Don't remove the shoes they will just make him sore and the feet will wear down faster. Look into supplements and specific hoof oils that can help. My horse had bad feet. I kept her shoes on and added suplements and hoof oils. Now there are no worries. Try that before doing anything drastice like removing the shoes.



I spent a year experiencing similar problems to Jay.O and shortly after i posted on this thread for the first time, ended up going barefoot using an EP. we are far from out of the woods yet, but in a month the improvement is fantastic. he is growing hoof, his frogs have improved, angles are beginning to change etc etc. a correctly managed barefoot transition would work wonders for the horse in question. if my horse can do it, with the state of his feet, then so can Jay.Os.


I have spent countless hundreds of pounds on farriery, oils, greases, moisturisers, supplements etc - none of which have been anywhere near as effective as going barefoot.

ETA - bringing personal disagreements into someone elses thread is dangerous ground and detracts from the OPs thread.

[DizzyBlonde2007]

I have spent countless hundreds of pounds on farriery, oils, greases, moisturisers, supplements etc - none of which have been anywhere near as effective as going barefoot.

Trust me on this going barefoot will do nothing good for horses feet.
Try Formula4feet it repairs feet and can prevent laminitus.

Bronya - Prevention is better than treatment if you are doing anything to your horses feet don't. If what horselover73 says is true and you do incorrectly rasp your horses feet. Get a farrier in to do it correctly.

Dizzy x

[Bronya]

My horse's feet usually wear down on her own when in work. All I do is neaten up the edges and even the road wear (where it gets longer on the inside of the hoof due to the camber of the road) when she's doing roadwork. If it gets beyond that the farrier/barefoot guy (depending on what needs doing) does them. Ever tried trimming a horse's hoof with a rasp? It is VERY hard work. You can't do more than remove a few mm to even things out without nippers, and I don't own a pair of those or pretend to know how to use them.

I was taught to do what I do by a very good farrier around here who said it was stupid me calling him every two weeks to sort out road wear unevenness and sharp bits. He then checked them every six weeks for a year before he said it was silly him coming to do nothing and just to call him when they got long. That was four years ago. Until what happened in my post above due to them going soft etc, I carried on getting the farrier every few months, for a good three and a half years, for the farrier to say 'her feet are fine, you're doing a good job' or just to trim the frog for me. In fact I was doing next to nothing, the road trims my girl's feet!

I recently had the same farrier trim them. I haven't seen him for ages as I'd moved. Due to her being unable to do much work at the time her bars had grown overlong and were laying over. They had become uncomfy and I'd managed to get them a little bit shorter with the rasp in the meantime but that was it. He pulled them out and cut them short for me, then cut the residual wall off (about 3/4mm) because she wasn't doing roadwork at the time and wouldn't need that bit for protection. The person whose advice Horselover73 has taken on this thought that the horse's frog shouldn't touch the ground when barefoot and asked the farrier later if the hooves had been fine when he'd seen them (d'uh, wouldn't have needed him if they had been!!). He said that they were a little flared near the bottom, 'twas all. I have that in writing from him since I had to query it after that person started spreading rumours that he'd said something else. Strangely enough, the flare at the bottom is the lami damaged hoof growing out, the last couple of cm or so of it.

I highly recommend that Horselover73 has a look at: www.barefoot.com with regards to unshod horse's feet and how they should look when not lami'd and how they should be trimmed. It's exactly how this farrier has always done it - remove all the wall until it's flush with the sole, cut the bars back if they're overlong and trim the frog if it's peeling. Some horses will naturally have more concave hooves than others. TBs have notoriously flat feet, ponies much better, harder feet.

Some questions for horselover73 - you should know the answers to these before you judge anything:

1. What are layed over bars and why are they bad?
2. Why are shoes taken off during bouts of laminitis?
3. What should an unshod horse's hoof look like? (pic would be good).
4. What changes in shape would you see in a laminitic horse's hoof?
5. Why is it important that the hoof wall is the same length all the way round?
6. Why is it important the bars don't get too long?
7. Why are shod horse's hoof walls much longer than the sole when barefoot horses's hoof walls are kept flush with the sole?
8. What are the main causes of flaring and what is it?
9. In which specific disease other than laminitis is it often recommended that shoes are removed to help the horse?
10. Why do horses need shoes in the first place?
11. What is the function of the frog?
12. Why does the frog recede when a horse is shod and what are the implications for concussion when in work?
13. What is the function of frog supports and heart bar shoes in the treatment of severe laminitis?

[Roofio]

Trust me on this going barefoot will do nothing good for horses feet.
Try Formula4feet it repairs feet and can prevent laminitus.

Bronya - Prevention is better than treatment if you are doing anything to your horses feet don't. If what horselover73 says is true and you do incorrectly rasp your horses feet. Get a farrier in to do it correctly.

Dizzy x


Dizzy -

I think i'll trust what i see in front of me every day when i look at my horse - formula 4 feet may well be an excellent supplement, but it didnt work for my boy and certainly didn't give me the improvements i am already seeing in front of me after less than a month.

take a look at this thread http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119949 if my word is not good enough for you.

whatever personal disagreements are rumbling under here should be kept off this thread and preferably off the board all together ;)

ETA - you may also want to ask Yann, Baymare, Melanie D, Est, Bebe, Wally and anyone else who has barefoot horses before you claim that it will do 'nothing good'

[MelanieD]

I can give a few examples of barefoot doing lots of good.. :p

Roxy - utter sh*te feet when shod, flat footed, literally no bars, white line disease, constantly loosing shoes, quarter cracks that wobbled.. Tried supplements with no real difference. Now sound barefoot and doing lots of work on all surfaces.

Mia - Foot so wonky it looked at first like there might be damage to the pedal bone, lame with abcesses very often. Now canters over pointy stones for fun and hasn't had an abcess in ages.

Jay - lame even on soft ground, neglected feet, loads of flare and infection. Less than 6 months later she's sound over everything.

Friend's TB sound and moving better as soon as shoes came off and she had a pedicure, nowhere near typical TB feet :)

Another TB, this time with 'typical TB feet', currently wearing boots and pads and sounder that way than she was on the rare occasion she managed to keep shoes on for more than 5 mins at a time.

Formula 4 Feet is a good supplement, and I do feed it sometimes, but its no magical cure for everything. Most of that list up there haven't ever seen F4F :)

[gingeremmie]

I also strongly disagree with the idea that a trim can cause mechanical laminitis. I have yet to be convinced from what I have read especially from Richard Vialls that pure mechanical laminitis exists. He sees a vast number of laminitic horses and has done a fair few disections and it seems that the foot would have to be subjected to a very invasive trim removing a huge amount of structure of the foot, plus there would have to be some form of metabolic issue there already for laminitis to occur.

Rasping round the edge of the flare and removing chips will not cause mechanical laminitis so I suggest unless you have evidence to the contrary you might want to be slightly less hysterical horselover and dizzyblonde.

[DizzyBlonde2007]

I am not being hysterical i am giving an opinion and i everyone is entitled to have one

[Jay.o]

Gosh, this thread is still going on. Thanks for all the great replies. I will give you an update as to how my boy is doing...

After much thought I took the shoes off. He was lame for a couple of weeks. He was out during the day with Boa boots, and in at night with nothing on for 2 weeks. he toughened up and was out bare foot from then on. His feet were crumbling and bad so had some shoes back on a week ago.. Only racing plates, the light alu ones.

Things were going fine until Tuesday. He came in with a kick and was hopping lame. Vet out antibiotics etc no prob. Until yesterday, came in even worse. Vet was called again, but as I was on the phone, he pulled off a shoe and half his foot (not a happy bunny!!!). Vet came, did nerve blocks. Looks like its 50/50 pain in his knee and hoof. Poulticed last night and yesterday, lots of lovely puss (as recommended by vet), and tonight there was even more. His coronet bands are swollen beyond beleif and split where they join the hoof. I am stuck....

Its not great, Im having a hard time at the moment with him and at the mo, he has a suspected fracture in his knee/forearm, something (vet doesnt know what) wrong with his hood aswell... he's on box rest for a few days until its decided what is wrong...

[bruce.armstrong]

A couple of things to consider that may help. Abandon the creams and potions - they're for you, not the horse! Take your lad to the beach - the sea water works wonders. If you don't live near a beach see if you can play in a stream a couple of times a week.

Forget the expensive supplements. Seaweed is cheap, full of biotin and magnesiom (and other good things). Half a teacup a day and they love the taste. if you live near a beach go get him some! An old farrier told me not to waste my money, buy some seaweed meal, and he was right becuase it made a huge difference.

Consider adding Linseed meal from Simple Systems too.

Don't buy it froma horsey shop - it's too expensive. Your local agri feed store can get it - about £17 for 25Kg and that will last for months!

Lastly - it takes ime to improve hooves - your fingernails take time to grow and reflect your diet. Shod or unshod - it takes a couple of months to see a real difference.

[Jay.o]

Here's a pic of the coronet band, just one, the worst one with a split in. An update, the vet seems to think abcess, farrier says is not... Cant find anything in there. farrier has never seen coronery bands like this before,so just as stumped as me.

Love horses ;);)