Falling through shoulder

[coss]

ok... i have very limited space to do very much but when working my horse the other day he kept falling through the shoulder on the left rein. that is his worst rein anyway but i always feel like i need to lift it up. he does it on the lunge as well and it will be one point on the circle that he will fall in (usually with head up and looking out) and then he will fall out so it is hard to correct as he does it so quick.
so its as if his shoulder just pops out no matter what i try, either that or his hauches are in :rolleyes:
i know how the haunches problem came about and i'm working on correcting that ;) he generally literally just drops the shoulder and i don't know what else i can try to help prevent it happening.
i have lifted inside hand to encourage him to stay upright, done shoulder in to help haunches and so that his shoulders aren't dropped, done spirals, turn on the haunches, turn about the forehand... ummmm and goodness knows what else. its as if he's barging me out the way. if you imagine a horse barging and how they use their shoulder.... thats the type of movement but whilst i'm onboard :p

any suggestions?

[Bay Mare]

How are you riding the circle? Are you doing the old 'turn so that you're facing into the circle' thing?

Instead of turning your shoulders try advancing your INSIDE seat bone which will automatically put your outside leg where it should be but without twisting you. Don't turn your shoulders into the turn.

See if that works for you as it does on a lot of horses. Turning your shoulders can actually encourage the horse to fall out through the shoulder. Make sure that your inside leg is at the girth though before you do it.

[coss]

How are you riding the circle? Are you doing the old 'turn so that you're facing into the circle' thing?

Instead of turning your shoulders try advancing your INSIDE seat bone which will automatically put your outside leg where it should be but without twisting you. Don't turn your shoulders into the turn.

See if that works for you as it does on a lot of horses. Turning your shoulders can actually encourage the horse to fall out through the shoulder. Make sure that your inside leg is at the girth though before you do it.

the main problem is falling in not out though- i find it much easier to sort falling out (when on board) than falling in. i have managed to prevent many horses falling in but my horse is another case :p
as my outside leg is where it should be without me pulling it back i would think my hip/inside seat bone goes forwards but its not something i think about (and i'm unlikely to be able to think about it due to the weather for some time :mad: )
if i leg yield we are generally fine but i can't hold him (ie push enough to stop him coming in but not enough to leg yield, he seems to move one way or the other...

[coss]

bump :p

[coss]

no one? :(

[Bling]

I'm not exactly sure what's going on but basicly, it seems your horse likes to lean one way or another, all off-balance probably? One thing to avoid is pulling up on the "wrong" rein to straighten him. If you want to circle left, and his head turns right, don't pull on the right rein to get the circle bigger, go ahead and get a contact on the left rein, never mind how small the circle gets. (Keep that leg on asking him to move out.) If your horse then flips in the other direction, you're probably on the right track, just need to get everything smoothed out. (Do make sure he understands your aids; look more small improvements.)

[cvb]

coss

I am struggling to "see" this one, but - while lifting the rein is asking him to correct the falling in by lifting the shoulder, it is a remedy not a prevention.

You say that on the lunge he normally pops his head out as well - does he do that ridden as well ? It sounds a bit like it may be the inside hind leg that you need to ask to step through slightly more ? That he is compensating for a problem there by taking counter-bend which then means you lose the shoulder ? And when you get him to lift the shoulder, because the underlying issue is still there - and he is looking out, he then falls out.

So - if we work on the theory it might be the inside hind - what could you try ?

You say you tried spirals - was that leg yielding out ? in what sort of frame ? (long and low, or collected ?) Try this - with a relatively novice frame - on a smaller circle than you have room for, ask for one or two *good* steps of leg yield. and I mean GOOD. you want to feel that inside hind activate. The tempo needs to stay the same, the horse needs to stay relaxed, he just needs to cross over. Ride forward for a few strides on the big circle then back on to the smaller circle and repeat.

This is because a couple of great steps are going to help him more than lots of steps that might be less balanced ? i.e. it is quality not quantity you want.

Also how much of the circle do you get before the shoulder-thing happens ? Say it is 3/4 way round. Then just before you get to the 3/4 point, transition to walk - make it a crisp balanced transition and walk for 3 strides only then trot, repeat with random transitions but always just before he gets to the "fall apart" point.

Now from there, make the trot-walk transition a half-halt instead. See what happens ? i.e. does he now stay balanced ? (the full transitions should have helped him a bit with that hind leg).

Oh - one more weird one for you to try. Are you rising in the trot ? If so, go on the *wrong* diagonal and see what happens...

let us know how it goes as that may help us work out what is going on so we can suggest some different things if none of these work ?

[coss]

I'm not exactly sure what's going on but basicly, it seems your horse likes to lean one way or another, all off-balance probably? One thing to avoid is pulling up on the "wrong" rein to straighten him. If you want to circle left, and his head turns right, don't pull on the right rein to get the circle bigger, go ahead and get a contact on the left rein, never mind how small the circle gets. (Keep that leg on asking him to move out.) If your horse then flips in the other direction, you're probably on the right track, just need to get everything smoothed out. (Do make sure he understands your aids; look more small improvements.)

well he does know what the aids are, and he knows them well. my main problem is that he has to have all winter off so i have to bring him back into work slowly. he can do a decent novice dressage test and knows all the elementary movements so understanding the aids is not the problem. off balance is possible due to the ground being unlevel and slippy in places but it does seem to be more of a "i'm going over there" and he falls through his shoulder. he is very bendy too. and i do the circle thing...
its probably just going to take time and consistant work... at the moment that isn't going to happen due to the ground but just wondered if there were specific exercises that people had that i haven't already used that will help when i do get to ride him...

[cvb]

coss - you don't really say what room/space you have got, other than it being limited ?

do you have room to do a small figure 8 ? I use figure-8 to work in and out of counter-flexion.

You comment how bendy he is. I was wondering with figure 8 with true and counter flexion would help the pair of you work on placing his shoulders regardless of where the head and neck are ? And might help him with some lateral flexibility as well, which would help with inside hind...

[coss]

coss

I am struggling to "see" this one, but - while lifting the rein is asking him to correct the falling in by lifting the shoulder, it is a remedy not a prevention.

You say that on the lunge he normally pops his head out as well - does he do that ridden as well ? It sounds a bit like it may be the inside hind leg that you need to ask to step through slightly more ? That he is compensating for a problem there by taking counter-bend which then means you lose the shoulder ? And when you get him to lift the shoulder, because the underlying issue is still there - and he is looking out, he then falls out.

So - if we work on the theory it might be the inside hind - what could you try ?

You say you tried spirals - was that leg yielding out ? in what sort of frame ? (long and low, or collected ?) Try this - with a relatively novice frame - on a smaller circle than you have room for, ask for one or two *good* steps of leg yield. and I mean GOOD. you want to feel that inside hind activate. The tempo needs to stay the same, the horse needs to stay relaxed, he just needs to cross over. Ride forward for a few strides on the big circle then back on to the smaller circle and repeat.

This is because a couple of great steps are going to help him more than lots of steps that might be less balanced ? i.e. it is quality not quantity you want.

Also how much of the circle do you get before the shoulder-thing happens ? Say it is 3/4 way round. Then just before you get to the 3/4 point, transition to walk - make it a crisp balanced transition and walk for 3 strides only then trot, repeat with random transitions but always just before he gets to the "fall apart" point.

Now from there, make the trot-walk transition a half-halt instead. See what happens ? i.e. does he now stay balanced ? (the full transitions should have helped him a bit with that hind leg).

Oh - one more weird one for you to try. Are you rising in the trot ? If so, go on the *wrong* diagonal and see what happens...

let us know how it goes as that may help us work out what is going on so we can suggest some different things if none of these work ?

spirals - yes i leg yield out and i start them in a novice frame to begin with. he does a good leg yield.
i see what you are saying about the inside hind - main reason for all the turn abouts and leg yielding i've done ;) he tries to pop his head out but generally he ends up losing inside flexion and then he falls through shoulder.

the amount of circle he manages, 1 circle and when he gets to one section he will do it (or he picks two points) and i do the transition thing and that stops him from doing his twist but after i've done the half halts he refers back to it.

i'm generally in sitting trot or rising to get him to go more forwards, haven't tried rising on wrong leg....

lots of thought in your post cvb and much appreciated :)
i main feeling is the that he feels quite calculated in what he does. when i lunge him he will start of doing fine, will have a walk, change rein and then he will probably pick the spot like a spooky corner... hmmmm

[coss]

coss - you don't really say what room/space you have got, other than it being limited ?

do you have room to do a small figure 8 ? I use figure-8 to work in and out of counter-flexion.

You comment how bendy he is. I was wondering with figure 8 with true and counter flexion would help the pair of you work on placing his shoulders regardless of where the head and neck are ? And might help him with some lateral flexibility as well, which would help with inside hind...

if i'm optimistic i have room for a 15m circle although that is reduced at the moment (so no riding ;)). have done counter flexion before so i think that might be a good idea, will try that when i get a chance, if anything it will get him thinking:cool:

[iloveshearer]

I have the same problem with Scally, he falls in and out at different times in both trot and canter. In canter it's because he's quite unbalanced so atm that's what i'm working on, and in trot he's just being lazy so i have to be firm with him and really put my leg on. I don't know whether it's the case for your horse, but it's just what i found.

[coss]

i have room for 3 balanced canter strides before it either is too boggy, bumpy or slidy. when he is fit and more balanced i would be able to circle once but it would be pushing him. as much as i would love to just push him on (i'm sure it would help) there isn't the room except in the bits he's well behaved anyway... harry doesn't generally fall in/out in canter but swings his bum out to go disunited... much fun :rolleyes:

[cvb]

ok - so a final thought before I head for some much needed beauty sleep ;)

I think from what you said that when he falls in, you have been correcting him back on to the circle ?

How about this - when he falls in, go with it and ride a small circle within your 15m. I think when you correct him back out, it is correcting the circle but not the issue. If it IS a "scarey corner" thing, then you need to redirect the energy out of the evasion - ideally you would be able to turn either way, but I don't think you have room for that ?

And if it is a physical inside hind thing, the smaller circle will ask him for more flexion and then ease him back onto the larger one... it also makes him momentarily work harder - which might make him focus more on you than the scary corner..

[coss]

ok - so a final thought before I head for some much needed beauty sleep ;)

I think from what you said that when he falls in, you have been correcting him back on to the circle ?

How about this - when he falls in, go with it and ride a small circle within your 15m. I think when you correct him back out, it is correcting the circle but not the issue. If it IS a "scarey corner" thing, then you need to redirect the energy out of the evasion - ideally you would be able to turn either way, but I don't think you have room for that ?

And if it is a physical inside hind thing, the smaller circle will ask him for more flexion and then ease him back onto the larger one... it also makes him momentarily work harder - which might make him focus more on you than the scary corner..

thank you for all your thoughts cvb... very useful. yep, i have been correcting back out onto the circle. i believe it is an evasion and you're correct, to turn the other way would mean we ended up either in a tree head first or in a ditch :p one way to make your outside leg strong;)

looks like, counter flexions and spirals are the way forwards...
any more suggestions welcome, my head is muddled now :p;) so off to bed too:)

[coss]

ok.. unexpectedly, the ground wasn't too bad so i had my little area to work on and did some spirals and counter flexion in walk. i think they helped and he did seem more balanced. attempted in trot but decided it was much to tight, 15m circle is too optimistic :p
his shoulder thing was much better and i could see some squidgy (sp?) ground more easily and avoided it which also helped. i then did some shoulder and haunches in.. got my mum to try and take pics...
warm up/walking
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/cosspb/Harry%20at%20Dusk/arab-harry2.jpg
shoulder in left
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/cosspb/Harry%20at%20Dusk/shoulder-in-left.jpg
start of haunches in
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/cosspb/Harry%20at%20Dusk/start-haunches-in-right-1.jpg
ending haunches in
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/cosspb/Harry%20at%20Dusk/haunches-in-right.jpg

[cvb]

coss

what do you see when you look at those photos yourself ?

I wonder if you have a bit more neck in the lateral work - and that perhaps is limiting the movement a bit as it is not "straight" in the movement ?

If it helps, think of moving the shoulder (or the hips) and then the neck and head just stay on a continuous curve of the spine ? Remember there is actually relatively little lateral movement available in the spine where the saddle sits, so that curve is not very tight... and there should not be a bog change in direction at the wither or poll ?

What you want for the mobility of the inside hind is the stepping across - quality - so look for the footfall rather than the bend you can see ahead of you ? It is not that you want a massive angle, just a change in the placing of the feet ?

Does that make sense ?

Try this to get a different feel - walking forwards, ask for a single step of turn on forehand *while continuing the walk* (so there will be a slight change in direction). walk forward a couple of steps straight and then ask again. This really breaks down the lateral work into a single step and you can work on getting amazing quality there, before going back to the shoulder fore work ?

[coss]

coss

what do you see when you look at those photos yourself ?

I wonder if you have a bit more neck in the lateral work - and that perhaps is limiting the movement a bit as it is not "straight" in the movement ?

If it helps, think of moving the shoulder (or the hips) and then the neck and head just stay on a continuous curve of the spine ? Remember there is actually relatively little lateral movement available in the spine where the saddle sits, so that curve is not very tight... and there should not be a bog change in direction at the wither or poll ?

What you want for the mobility of the inside hind is the stepping across - quality - so look for the footfall rather than the bend you can see ahead of you ? It is not that you want a massive angle, just a change in the placing of the feet ?

Does that make sense ?

Try this to get a different feel - walking forwards, ask for a single step of turn on forehand *while continuing the walk* (so there will be a slight change in direction). walk forward a couple of steps straight and then ask again. This really breaks down the lateral work into a single step and you can work on getting amazing quality there, before going back to the shoulder fore work ?

When i look at the photos i see that he is relaxed for a start (that is a big step for him) in most of them. in some i think i'm asking to much as he doesn't have enough time to be straight and then move his bum or shoulders over and then straighten.
it is true that he does flex through the neck quite a lot but what may not be clear in those photos is how much he is bending through his body, he is on 3 tracks and you can really feel him move his bum over in the haunches in and it is bend. i have done a lot of work (in the past few years) of getting him to work back to front if you get my meaning... he offers haunches in so easily though that when riding a simple curve i have to be careful not to push the haunches in but be able to maintain bend. i do have to work on getting him straighter in front though you are right.:cool:
his turn about the forehands (imo) are pretty good, they could be better of course, i'm not in some fantasy :p but i have done a lot of work on turn about the forehand. i don't generally do one step as he tends to do the first one not great and when i ask for a second step it clicks, so i generally do 2 step with the second one being a good cross over and i have then done a quarter turn.

what you have said does make sense, the problem as i'm sure you are aware is that each photo is a moment in time and it is hard to see how he is moving. if only you have feelovision :p