Loaning - help needed with contract!

[Whatanejit]

Well after leaving May behind in the old yard I have been lucky enough to find myself a scrumptious loan pony.


Anyway, for the serious business, the loan contract is being prepared based on the BHS one.

As the loaner I am preparing what I would like to be put in it.

My friend has loaned twice before and hence I have taken some of her advice which is..........

Should I have any financial crisis that the owner will get 1 months notice of return of pony.

Should the pony have an accident and result in loss of use for a period of 1 month that I can then give the owner a months notice to take the pony back.

(obviously the above could be negotiable with sharing of vet and livery fees).


What do you guys think?

Do you have any other clauses that the loanee and/or the loaner should consider outside of the BHS contract.

I think the only additional point that her mum has put in is that I can not breed from her. Lucky Cooper is gelded isn't it? :D

We would both appreciate your help.

xx

Dee

[bexj]

Congratulations on your new loan Dee;)

IMHO I think that the loss of use one is a good idea, but I think that 4 weeks isn't very long. After all, the horse could go lame with something as straightforward as an abscess in the foot and be out of action for 4 weeks. I think if I was the loaner, I would be looking for something more like 8 weeks......

But....then.....said horse is rarely out of action....

Edited to add......oooooo Cooper and loan horse babies - they would be LUSH!

[Rips]

Good Luck with it :)

[flatbroke filly]

OK, here's a lengthy thought from someone who's had a couple of 'difficult' loan experiences and a some nightmares with a owned horses:

I think the idea of a clause to end the loan with a months notice period should the horse develop a problem that may end up with weeks of veterinary investigation and then months of rehab is a great idea. Unless you really think the horse is worth it you don't want to be paying out (even through insurance as that will affect your premium) what could be large sums of money, time and emotional committment to get someone else's horse back on the road and all the time not getting in any riding.

I'll use lameness as an example (you may gather this is from from personal experience!)

Say the vet comes out and diagnoses a foot abcess, there would be no reason to give a months notice because in 99.9% of cases horses get over these with no further problems, even though it may take a good few weeks to get absolutely right.

However, if they come out and find some kind of low grade hindlimb lameness they are likely to prescribe a week's box rest before coming out again. If the box rest fixes it, great, carry one.

If its not changed after the week you may then be looking at x-rays, ultrasounds, nerveblocks etc. I think it would be reasonable to expect you as the loanee to start such an investigation off as the horse was in your care when lameness was spotted. It is very likely that by the time all these tests are done, probably 2-3 weeks from spotting the lameness, the vet would have some idea of what is going on. If it were maybe a tweaked tendon or muscle I'd probably think, fine, carry on with appropriate treatment, that's something more than likely to come right in a relatively short time.

However, if you're looking at something more serious - say ligament damage or a problem that requires further investigation e.g through scintigraphy/ MRI, almost certainly the horse is going to be off work for a considerable period even if its just to bottom out what is wrong with it. That's all fine when its your own horse, but soul destroying when its a loan. So, with a loan horse I'd want to be able to get out of going through that.

You'd need to come up with some good wording between you which would be the tricky bit. Personally I like something along the lines of "a month's notice to be given from the point where, in the vets opinion, it is likely that the pony will take longer than a month (or whatever time you think is acceptable) to get back to its pre-injury level of health."

In one of my own cases, if this particular horse had been loaned rather than my own, that would have meant I'd have had the vet out to look the horse, given him a weeks rest, then taken him to the surgery for x-rays, nerve blocks and ultrasound none of which came up with anything concrete. At that point my vet was saying, this is something significant, but we need scintigraphy identify the problem and it may take months to get back to riding and the prognosis is guarded. With a loan contract like that above I would then have been able to give a months notice and send the horse back for the owner to carry on with the investigation (or not) rather than having to go through a few more weks of investigation, then months of recuperation.

:eek:That was long and maybe a bit pessimistic but with one loan that ended up being dioagnosed with kissing spine (after owner had vanished to S America :mad:) and another with hock spavin I'd be careful about making sure I had a get out clause in future.

[Whatanejit]

Bump!

[RustyMary]

Can't advise about the contract, but wanted to say that's great news you've found a new loan, and I'm looking forward to the pictures!

[domane]

So am I!!!

Nice one W'eejit :D

[Montana]

Can't wait to see pics of the new loan pony:D. Be careful though, some loaners can be unscrupulous;):D

[Whatanejit]

Thanks for the nice comments guys but only a few of you have been informative and helpful!!!

Special thanks to them :D


Pics will be available soon :)

[Laura+Phantom]

Sorry for the delay, have PM'd you!

[chickflick1066]

Gosh, I hope your loans owner isn't some crazy idiot!

[Loopslou]

just make sure you get a loan agreement that suits all parties and don't be afraid to ask for certain conditions to be added to keep you safe too.

There's manys a horror story about loaning floating around, I've some that would make your toes curl, but there are probably more success stories!

So long as the original owner isn't a complete muppet you should be fine LOL!

[Whatanejit]

Thanks for the comments folks.

I'm hoping she won't be a nutter too but I've already heard some stories:o

[rtk]

Whatanejit, best of luck with your loan, I hope everything works out for you.

To some of the others, yes there are a lot of problems with loans and after reading some of these comments its no wonder its getting such a bad name.

I agree that if someone pushes a horse with either behavioural or soundness problems onto an unsuspecting loanee they should have a get out.

However if you loaned one of my perfectly sound healthy well behaved horses (not that I would ever consider it) and lamed it to the point where it would not come sound in a month, you send it back for me to sort out.

I assume you also cancel the insurance as you wouldn't want to carry on paying that would you. Leave me with a lame horse which I cant insure, the vets bills and the keep that I probably cant afford or I wouldn't have let you have the horse in the first place.

Owning horses (or loaning) require commitment (emotional and financial) to the welfare of the animal, if your not prepared for it then stick to once a week at the riding school.

[fairlady]

RTK has a very good point. The contract has to be fair to both owner and loaner and is an absolute minefield to get 100% on both sides:)

How many people before they 'loan' have a horse vetted? Maybe that would be an option, suggest you go 50/50 with the owner so you both know the horse is 'sound' before you loan. This protects you hopefully that you know the horse is not full of 'bute' and unsound and the owner that she/he is handing you a 'sound' horse and therefore any problems down the line has happened whilst with you. The 'should the pony have accident resulting in 'loss of use' the owner gets a month and gets the pony back' is all a little unfair if it is down to the way it has been ridden or your negligence. If it was your own horse you could not 'just be wiping your hands and sending it back'.

and Whatenijit, if you are hearing 'bad things' about the loan owner already maybe you should be 'digging' a little deeper before taking on this horse, exciting as the prospect is.

However, I hope it all works out for you.

[domane]

Yes, W'eejit - what type of "bad things" have you heard about the owner? You can't be too careful these days.... you don't want to start loaning only for some mad person to turn up in floods of tears, demanding their baby back!!! ;)

[Whatanejit]

Thanks for the extra feedback folks - think we are nearly on our way to a contract solution.

Tears will be a must on both sides me thinks Jane! :)

xx

Dee

[Skib]

Would you care to explain what you think are the omissions or other shortcomings of the BHS suggestions?

I kept it on my computer as a reference when it comes to sharing and assumed it was OK. If your educated response is that it isnt, maybe you could write to the BHS and ask their lawyer to take another look?

[x.fat-pony.x]

Also, make sure there is something in there over the horse being sold
Brad's owner decided she was going to sell him without telling me, I was at the yard one day and saw him being ridden. Asked a fellow livery:

'Oh, they are the prospective buyers - didn't S tell you he was for sale?'

:eek:

[LindaAd]

Yes, W'eejit - what type of "bad things" have you heard about the owner? You can't be too careful these days.... you don't want to start loaning only for some mad person to turn up in floods of tears, demanding their baby back!!! ;)

I hope they're more reliable than the potential loaner who let me down before I even had a chance to see the horse.


Linda

[katieB]

Would you care to explain what you think are the omissions or other shortcomings of the BHS suggestions?

I kept it on my computer as a reference when it comes to sharing and assumed it was OK. If your educated response is that it isnt, maybe you could write to the BHS and ask their lawyer to take another look?

Sarcastic comments like that are not really helpful are they :rolleyes: I think what Whatanejit means is that the BHS contract does not cover every situation for every type of loan for every type of person - if it did it would be one long contract!

[Lot1983]

Ok, what about tack...

Who is responsible if the saddle is dropped and the tree breaks? Or if the saddle is found not to fit?


Can we hear the horror stories about the owner... is she evil???

[LindaAd]

Sarcastic comments like that are not really helpful are they :rolleyes: I think what Whatanejit means is that the BHS contract does not cover every situation for every type of loan for every type of person - if it did it would be one long contract!

I can't see what you think is sarcastic in Skib's question. It looked like a straightforward request for information to me.

[Bobbin]

I hope they're more reliable than the potential loaner who let me down before I even had a chance to see the horse.
Linda

I had a similar situation only I see it a different way, a case of first come first served. It's the owners perogative to home the horse where they see fit and to the person who can offer it the best home for the duration of the loan required. In my case I couldn't commit so why should the loan be put on hold whilst my position is made clear. I don't know your particular circumstances or the loan you were going to look at but I am assuming the horse went to someone else. Annoying as it is it's not just us who are looking to loan that must be happy but the owner of the horse aswell.

Hope you find something else soon.

[katieB]

I can't see what you think is sarcastic in Skib's question. It looked like a straightforward request for information to me.

So suggesting she writes to the BHS lawyers was a genuine suggestion? Silly me.

[amandal]

I read it that way too, heavy and totally unnecessary sarcasm. The BHS contract doesn't suit everybody, one size does not fit all.

[Skib]

It was a genuine enquiry because I know Whataneejit has a fine mind and is articulate.
It was a constructive suggestion too as I know the BHS like to hear from people with suggestions or queries.

If someone posts on a public message board that they are not satisfied with the BHS contract, Why is it sarcastic to ask them to elaborate?

May be I didnt phrase it perfectly. Silly me. Posts to NR are not something I revise and revise. But if my posts repeatedly give offence to the young, I will retire with good grace - along with most of my older contemporaries.

[Laura+Phantom]

Give offence to the young? In the mature riders section? :confused:

[happy highlande]

What annoys me about sharers/loaners that I would have in a contract???

When they say they are going to ride and don't so the pony gets too much food for the amount of exercise - in your case who decides what the horse gets fed )amouny and brand) - can the loaner change it at will?

When they leave dirty numnahs on the saddles and don't clean tack - Issue here - who is responsible for ordinary wear and tear on tack and keeping it to a minimum.

When they ask if the pony can go to a friend's house to play (that was OK) and a sheep float turns up to collect the pony ( I was around, pony stayed at home!) Issur here - what can the horse travel in (trailer/lorry - and how often - every week, every day?)

When they invite all the local kids to come for a ride - though they do check most times and are very careful - but who is allowed to ride the loan horse - I have seen a post recently on another board where this broke up a loan.

How much communication do you want between loaner and loanee? Weekly, daily, monthly???? I still have the pony at home and the sharers are meant to write a wee message on the whiteboard each time they come - important as pony has laminitis and i need to know if she has been ridden to balance her time at grass (see above!!!)

If I think of anything else I'l pm you! Have fun!!!

[Whatanejit]

Phew!

This thread has gone a bit crazy while my back was turned finishing off the exam year at work :)

I used the BHS loan contract when sharing May. It is quite generic and like most contracts allows you to put in specifics. I think it is sold to us from the BHS site as such.

I think it is a perfectly sound contract but was just seeking advice on the additional specifics as I was seeking advice from two friends who were each at a different end of the spectrum of horsey loaning experience.

1. had a complete nightmare loaning a horse that she got to ride for 3 weeks to find it had a bad back and spent 9 months rehabing her. Second loan horse wasn't much better.

2. friend had a great experience with no probs and wouldn't have even thought about a loss of use clause.

It is such a big decision for the loaner to choose the right person and the amount of trust is phenomenal. I don't know if I could loan Coops as I would be too much of a control freak.

We decided to put this on the forum to get views supporting both sides and I think we are getting that = so thanks.:)

[KateWooten]

I think also, you should make sure that your riding style, and the owner's riding style, that the horse is obviously used to, aren't too different. I don't know that's something you could put in a contract though ? I mean, for example, if the owner had a particular style of jumping, and that was something that worked well in the showring for her, and you had a totally different sort of position or whatever, that might confuse the horse and affect future judges' appreciation of their talents ?

Could you request pictures maybe of the owner jumping the horse, say,for instance, or whatever, so that you could compare your style to his/hers ?

[Whatanejit]

Interesting you should say that Kate as when I tried the horse, the owner placed lots of obstacles in our way - a mock x country jump made of tyres, desensitised us with the presence of a bouncy castle and all that with some karaoke going on in the background. I kid you NOT! Shetland ponies with miniature riders bombing around the school out of control was another interest - thank goodness the horse in question wasn't phased yet remained a light and responsive ride!

Such rigour!

Still she had to be sure and was pleased with how I rode the horse and the nice work the horse produced as a result.

[Montana]

:D:D:D:D:D

Bombproof then?:D

[Miriam]

BHS agreement is one that would be taken by law but in the end it is only a guidline. I use it as a guidline for mine but as it does not fit the profile I want or something that my loanee would like it needs to be changed to suit.

Dee think about what you want from this loan. What you think is suitable for you. Loaner should do the same. Get together and talk it through. When your both happy with it sign it and witness it.

Best of luck to you both


On the frame of a horse being loaned I actually went for one to buy. I asked if he would keep it till I could get back and see it driven on the roads as I could neither drive or ride it at the time as he said it was a bit too late in the evening to do it. Arranged a time and day and when I went back it had been sold the same night. Yes I was annoyed as he was a lovely horse but obviously not for me as I found an even better friend in Rhi

[LindaAd]

I had a similar situation only I see it a different way, a case of first come first served. It's the owners perogative to home the horse where they see fit and to the person who can offer it the best home for the duration of the loan required. In my case I couldn't commit so why should the loan be put on hold whilst my position is made clear. I don't know your particular circumstances or the loan you were going to look at but I am assuming the horse went to someone else. Annoying as it is it's not just us who are looking to loan that must be happy but the owner of the horse aswell.

Hope you find something else soon.


Fair enough, first come first served is reasonable. With this one, I had a long email correspondence with the owner, and was in the process of arranging to see the horse, when the owner (who had previously said they I was the only person interested) told me that they'd decided to give it to someone else.

True, I've come across worse behaviour from people selling horses, it's not the end of the world, but it does leave you feeling a bit grumpy.

[Sparklie]

Bouncy castles and Kareoke with speedy shetlands thrown into the mix...must be a super pony!!

Can't wait for the photos :)

No advice other than keep in contact with each other. It's always better to ask if you're in any doubt. Good luck!!

[HairyCob]

My advice would be to make sure that you know what you are and aren't allowed to do with your loan- hunting? jumping? galloping? Make sure that the owner gives you a thorough run down of what the loan is and isn't to do, or is or isn't capable of.

Also make sure you have an agreement and understanding of what the pony eats, if it's OK to change it's food, if it has any foods that it doesn't like, or make it go nuts- Dolly goes barmy on TLC supplement for example!

Also what supplements if any it has, and at what dose, also if it's OK for you to add supplements if you feel they are necessary.

Have an agreement about how often the owner is to visit, and what sort of notice period you require for a visit- it may be fine with you for the owner to turn up unnanounced, but is that also OK with your YO?

Shoeing is another thing- how often and what sort? Get very specific! A friend of mine nearly put road nails in her loan horse's shoes- he slipped a bit on the roads and she hadn't been told not to- thank god she checked with the owner, the horse couldn't have road nails as the very slight imbalance they cause played havoc with his arthritis!

One final thing that is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL.....

PHOTOS, and SOON!:D

[Whatanejit]

Once again thanks to all who have responed helpfully on this thread.

I feel honoured that this process with my new loan pony and the pony's mum has been smooth, honest, understanding and focused with the latter being on the health and welfare of the pony in question.

We have an agreement ready to go and will be signed with witnesses on the day of the move which for me is excitingly very soon and for pony's mum sadly come around very quickly.

Pony's mum is welcome anytime and can stay with me and OH to save too much travelling when she does so.

All will be revealed soon.

:)

[RustyMary]

Really glad it's worked out for you Dee! Looking forward to hearing the whole story and SEEING THE PICTURES...

[fitz]

I'm really looking forward to this too :)

Best of luck to all involved.

[sprout1234]

Best of luck...:)

[Big Ears]

I'm a bit late on this thread but i do have a contract which our horse charity used for loaning their ponies, so it is probably a bit more extensive than the BHS one.

Sadly enforcing a contract is the hardest bit. I had a horse on loan, paid the insurance premium and the owner did not pay me when I had to return the horse and he had veterinary treatment. He also came naked, so he cost me saddle bridle rugs etc. After a year I had to send him back as I had lost confidence in him after a mishap on the road - again I paid for him to be transported back - so I was very out of pocket.

On the other hand when I loaned Molly I got her back with a broken splint bone and thin as a rake and uninsured! It cost £2,000 for the vets bills and the person who had her on loan didn't contribute a penny.

So it can work either way.

I have had Rosie on loan for 4 years and she has been off work for 15 months of that time. So maybe I should send her back. But the thing is I now consider her my horse, so that's that. If her laminitis does not improve, then she will be pensioned off with Molly.

I think sometimes if sending a loan horse back is TOO easy then there is little incentive to try TOO hard.

[little lauz]

i hve had a horse on loan for a year now and i had to pay a deposit on yhe tack and equipment in case i damage it which i think is good i also was given a list of the equipment with photos .

[teabiscuit]

True, I've come across worse behaviour from people selling horses, it's not the end of the world, but it does leave you feeling a bit grumpy.

alls fair in love, war and hoss loaning
i'm sure the owner has the horses best interests at heart, and to me that's the most important thing