Congratulations Esther.D and Ollopy Backwards! [Archive]

Wally

19th Aug 2007, 07:12 PM

Once again they won the cone driving and came second in the driven Shtetland class.

They was robbed, truly they were.

Steven.R Frances and I were standing like greyhouds on the blocks waiting to pile into the arena and grab the several accidents waiting to happen.

Thanks to Esther.D, letting me into a little bit of info, I took up fags again and hit the gin at the nearest opportunity!

Who, in the name of everything sensible, puts their horse into a cart on the Friday, (having everything pearshaped) then on the Sunday takes it to a ruddy show to try it out in comapany???????

I pointed out to the ring steward that there weer a number of things dreadfully wrong, but was ignored.

If someone offered you advice to keep your child from a hospital visit, (a potentially life threatening one) would you take it, or just ignore it, saying you'd "get around to it"?????

At last I was ringside and not a competitor, so was able to voice my concerns about turnouts without it looking like sour grapes!

Seriously, Esther and Ollopy Backwards should have won both classes.

Roofio

19th Aug 2007, 07:19 PM

oh dear that doesnt sound too good!

but that aside, congratulations :)

Wally

19th Aug 2007, 07:22 PM

Doesn't look good???? Doesn't look good, you should have seen it from where we were standing.

It's Esther's fault, telling me that one particular horse had only been in harness for a day! Poor Claire, lost her last fag to me, it's all Esther's fault, ignorance is bliss, I'd have been happier not knowing that one!

tazzle22

19th Aug 2007, 10:01 PM

congratuaaaaaaaaaaaaalations and celebraaaaaaaations .. :rolleyes: .okkk I wont sing any more

seriously ...... well done esther :cool:

its incredulous Wally the stupidity of some folk ..... the mind boggles. Its stories like this that gets to me when I am turned down before being seen just because Taz is bitless and blinkerles .... yet nothing is done about blantantly dangerous harnessing and no notice taken of warning of potential disater re pones one days driving experience !!!!!!!!!

That "driver" wants to have a sharp reminder of ....... well everything really !!!!!!!!!!!!

Wally

19th Aug 2007, 10:34 PM

I totally agree Tazz.

Take everything on it's merits, there is nothing wrong with bitless, treeless, blinkerless or whatever, so long as the basics are understood.

This wekend we intorduced a horse to the cart. On Sat. ( as were were at a lose end not being able to compete at the Scottich Carriage Driving show) we put Essie to, and got her going in the shafts.

There is no way on this Earth that I'd have taken her to a show on Sunday or Monday.....or even this year! She is used to having driving horses all around her too!

Until I have driven at home in all possible forseen circumstances, there's no way I am putting anyone elses turnout at risk.

Okay, I cannot put heavy horse turnouts to the test, but I would want to at least see what kind of general disposition the horse has!

Andy and Charlie met their first Clydesdale, heavy turnouts this year, they did look liie they'd swallowed a button each, but they know enough to beleive me when I said STAND!

tazzle22

20th Aug 2007, 06:07 PM

i am the same wally ... I am nowhere as experienced as you but currently introducing a 17 year old to harness ......... taking it slow and making sure she totally happy with whip, harness , things falling around her back legs etc and will try loads things before actually putting between the shafts. She has seen Taz driving etc so know that carriage itself no fears, but know it may well be a different kettle of fish when its actually right behind her !!!! I will have her a week or so in the field before we go out on the roads...... and feel totally happy with that before we think of doing anything else !!!!

also supporting a friend on the yard introduce her 8 year old to harness...... and reminding her ALL the time she has to have the basic sooooooooooo there before putting horse to carriage !!!

eg just because gg happy with a whip from the front does not mean they happy with it coming from the rear ... to get them to know when whip just moving and when it means do something !!! lots lots and lots groundwork !!!!

I have shown them both SEVERAL times how to put harness on and how to adjust it for each horse......

to me its not just what someone tells you , most of it is just common sense :rolleyes: ...... or am I just not living on the same planet ;)

well done andy and charlie ........ those huuuuuuuuuugeee horses are so noisy and frightening !!!!

as you say , we cant prepare for everything ..... prior to the 3 counties Taz had never been near hot air ballons to my knowlege , and certainly not pack of hounds, helter skelter, parachutes etc ..... .... she had eyes on stalks the other day as we came round bend to children flying in the air on huge trampoline ( now where can I get one to desentitise her LOL)

Miriam

20th Aug 2007, 06:42 PM

Well done to Esther D

I'm cringing. Rhi went out with Saphi before I took her on a memorial drive for a friends friend. Mind you I would have had to take her even had she not been out with other horses but as she had not been out with so many we did make sure that we were at the back of the drive

Esther.D

20th Aug 2007, 08:52 PM

Olopy backwards did live up to his name in the private driving, plus a sneaky rear when he had a argument with my groom as to whether backwards was really the direction to go in the line up, it depends whether you place the fit of vehicle & harness or the horse's behaviour first....first place went to a very well mannered (if less schooled and flashy) Shetland but whose vehicle and harness were not as well fitting, but were posher than mine..but mine all fitted and balanced well. I'm not sure whether I would have placed me first...which is the worst of the two evils - a pony who won't stand properly in the line-up and reared in harness or a pony who is good but whose vehicle and harness are not well fitted..interesting dilemma!

I would have been mortified if we didn't win the cones - we have our reputation to keep up you know! :D

As for the potential accidents, I just prayed and was glad that I have a very good pony who can be relied on in a crisis, other than that I kept my head down, cringed and hoped for the best and being a wimp I allowed Wally and Frances to make the comments! :o

I was out with Bobby today (when the rain stopped), just took him for a walk in blinkers to remind him of the whole thing as am aiming to put him too again this week (he was put-to before I was pregnant with Beth but never driven as I fell pregnant and couldn't risk bringing on a youngster and since have been ill off and on for nearly 2yrs with -recently diagnosed- hypothyriodism). But despite the fact that he has been put-to and led in the vehicle before I am still starting a run through of blinkers, longreins, pulling, and then putting-to before I even consider anything further and his first show will be the Viking show next year (thats because there is only one driving show a year up here)!

I am *aiming* to take Gallie and Bobby as a pair to the Viking next year so this was probably Polo's swansong at the Viking, unless he ends up going as part of a multiple...I have considered putting the unicorn together again and taking all three....

Esther.D

20th Aug 2007, 09:33 PM

Oh and what Wally hasn't mentioned is that I am especially proud of him is that he has achieved this at the grand old age of 22 yrs old - not a bad cones round for a veteran...in fact I had to slow him up a few times as I was worried that full gallop was not terribly safe on slippy grass :D

Wally

20th Aug 2007, 10:19 PM

Esther, had the proverbial happened, we were all in aggreement that you would have been the only turnout to have left the ring in one bit!

The scenario we had was that big posh green turnout would have freaked and kicked the botom out of the cart. Causing the short shaft brigade to launch into the harness losing the shafts and tipping kids into arse-end of pony, inflicting other injuries, the other turnouts were in no fit state to exit anywhere, or find a safe spot with the harness int he state it was. I had visions of lgs over traces, breeching under back legs...you name it!

....all I saw was Esther and Ollopy Backwards emerging from carnage.....in one bit,

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/sprimble/breeching.jpg
This is suppose to work ????? How????

Wally

20th Aug 2007, 10:21 PM

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/sprimble/Shafttip.jpg
I was holding my breath waiting for the shafts to drop out.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/sprimble/tracesbreechingetc.jpg
Too long in the traces and too long in the breeching, poor pony

Wally

20th Aug 2007, 10:24 PM

more deliberate miskakes

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/sprimble/tugsbreechingandcollar.jpg

ShariN

21st Aug 2007, 02:53 PM

Gads!! That is scary...if someone is not sure how to harness their equine..why not ask someone? I mean,, most folks that drive are more than happy to help.

Esther congrats on your win!!

shandy84

21st Aug 2007, 03:15 PM

Jesus Chr*st!!! I'm only a novice driver and even I would know better than those mistakes, and those shafts were TERRIFYING!:eek:

Wally

21st Aug 2007, 04:39 PM

They got worse than that!!!!!

and those shafts were TERRIFYING!

At one point there was about a half inch grace and Esther's OH and our German student and I were like greyhounds in the slips ready to grab when it all went wrong.

tazzle22

21st Aug 2007, 05:50 PM

that poor chestnut , you can actually see the skin being pulled by the shafts .... he must have a heart of gold not to be objecting !!! of course then poor sod would have tangled itself in the too long traces .......

x.fat-pony.x

21st Aug 2007, 10:54 PM

I know nothing about driving, point me at a harness and I run to the hills ;) but I can say that those harnesses looked damn right uncomfortable and cruel :(

Esther.D

22nd Aug 2007, 07:37 AM

The only saving grace, if it is one, is that none of these ponies seem to be driven regularly, most are just put into harness for the show each year and an occasional potter - that is probably what has saved them from coming to grief. I wish there was a tactful way of putting this right without offending people - but then I think the only answer to that is a diplomatic but honest and knowledgeable judge...I don't think the throw them all from the ring type is the answer, they need a judge who will have quiet words but is respected enough for them to listen to..eg a LHHI or similar, but then an LHHI wouldn't allow them in the ring, so I don't know the answer to that one!

Esther.D

22nd Aug 2007, 07:43 AM

I would happily drive out with more people up here...but not unless their harness was safe and their ponies had been driving for more than 2 days! I have been there, got the t-shirt and been bolted past by a turnout that was too inexperienced and unreliable in company (it was a club drive so we didn't know in advance that the pony was only 4 and very inexperienced, that only came out after the incident) and I value my neck too much to repeat it (as it was my ponies were fine when it bolted past us and didn't bother but I still don't fancy repeating it)!

What worries me is that if I took a novice pony to the show and one of those accidents waiting to happen did happen...

Skib

22nd Aug 2007, 07:50 AM

Just want to say Esther that it is good you are feeling better and posting and doing stuff again. It took me a long miserable time to recover from having my kids and this thread has given me joy.

Esther.D

22nd Aug 2007, 07:53 AM

Thanks skib, I am finally feeling normal again :D

Colonel

22nd Aug 2007, 08:00 AM

Congrats Esther.D!

Sorry to hear that not all competition drivers are as accident aware as the majority of horse owners everywhere but I have seen some sights at the horse fairs and the 'dealers' selling their drivers (which have only been in the cart the day before and left to let rip).

One idea I have had is would any of you be willing to actually do a photo shoot of how to harness correctly, how to put your horse in the cart correctly and how to drive safely?

Or perhaps its already been done and I haven't seen it? I know it is in books, i have the majority of them at home but I do think that the piccies you posted Wally were very good and you could point out what was wrong in the one piccie and then show how is should be in the next piccie?

Just a thought, find it very interesting. And my new webbing harness came yesterday and hoping to try it on Gabrielle this weekend (or even tonight if I have time):D.

Esther.D

22nd Aug 2007, 08:27 AM

Wally tried to correct one set of them (the ones with the too short shafts) for their safety but nothing was done. Wally also spoke to the ring steward, and nothing was done, she has also tried to set up a driving club that started with going through correct harnessing etc but that didn't get anywhere either- they just do not seem to be appreciating how dangerous bad harnessing can be.

Do you mean a photo shoot for NR, or generally? Generally there are books, as you mention, and DVDs/videos etc with it all on but I suspect they do not own them.

I really want to see it sorted as there were some lovely ponies out there and some pretty good driving, it was the harnessing and vehicle size/balance that was letting them down.

Colonel

22nd Aug 2007, 09:16 AM

Thanks Esther.D

Yes I think for NR would be the best idea. I know I would love to see how everyone does it and you could also ask people to post thier pics of thier horses in harness and how they were taught to do it and if things work or don't work?

What do you think?

I don't mind if its not a good idea but I know that I for one would be very interested as there are not a lot of driving people around where I am and although you see the pics in books it is better where you can ask a question about a specific thing - perhaps in a piccie and then get a direct answer from the person doing it.

Wally

22nd Aug 2007, 10:58 AM

That's not a bad idea. A picture says so much more than trying to explain something in words.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/sprimble/RHS240.jpg
Okay here's Esther.d Driving our Jackson Pillock at the RHS.

Note the big buckle that holds the loop the shafts go through, it's in the middle of the pad, where it should be, the pad protects the horse from the buckle. There is a brass plate on the shaft where it runs through the tug, on this plate is a small peg that sticks out to the side, sometimes it's under the shaft, this is the tug stop and when the buckle is in the middle of the pad and the horse is pulling on the flat, this little peg should be hard up against the back of the tug loop.

The tips of the shaft come no father forward than this manly chest.

The shafts and the floor of the vehicle are level, and the shafts come roughly half way up the ponies sides. Jackson's are a tad high because he's such a short arse! But nothing dangerous.

Look under the shaft and you'll see a little loop just in front of his hip, nest to it is another loop on the side of the shaft. These are the breeching Ds which are your brakes. You choose whether you use the undershaft breeching D or the one on the side, in this case we have used the undershaft one as it keeps the clutter down on the shaft itself. Note the breeching, close in resting on the horses quarters, if he was pulling on the flat or uphill you should get no more than 4 fingers between him and the breeching.

The breeching seat is about mid way between the top of his tail and his hock, horizontal neither flopping down or riding up.

On this cart there is another D on the shaft nearer the pony's bum, just level with his tail. This one is for a FALSE breeching, you never attach the horse's harness to these. This is for a leather strap, on offset squares to be slung between the shafts. This is only for showing on lawns, or show drives on very flat land, you take off the breeching on the horse and rely on the false breeching slung between the shafts to stop the vehicle. Not advisable on this turnout as the pony is so small and the false breeching would not come in the optimum place.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/sprimble/RHS239.jpg

You can see the collar height here, above the point of his shoulder, but not digging into his windpipe. Tug in the middle of the pad, tug stop hard against the tug.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/sprimble/IMG_2022.jpg
Now, here, to perfect the fit of the harness the traces could do with being a hole shorter. The tug buckle has swung to the back edge of the pad, still within acceptable limits. But if we did make the traces shorter, we might have to let the breeching out a hole, it all has to balance itself up.

Zingy

22nd Aug 2007, 11:19 AM

Those pictures are scary :eek: It certainly says something for the ponies that they can work like that. I can see the plus point in that they're not having to put up with it every day, but to think the last time they did this was probably 12 months ago is about as bad!

Why are they allowed to show like that though? As long as they are, they won't see any reason to change anything.

Colonel

22nd Aug 2007, 12:18 PM

Thanks Wally - I knew you would rise to the occasion and so well too!:)

Absolutely fantastic the instructions and the piccies! I have learnt alot as I am sure a lot of other people have too.

Just for your info I am actually breaking Gabrielle to harrow and roll our fields - whereby as a working horse she HAS to have a stable in my new barn!

Would the harness be fitted any differently to that of a horse pulling a carriage/trap?

Colonel

22nd Aug 2007, 12:42 PM

Yes I have actually bought two metal shafts and have thought of welding/attaching to the roller so that they/we have more control steering, etc.

Does the harness sit any differently any where else though? Sorry to pick your brains but want to do this properly.

Wally

22nd Aug 2007, 05:41 PM

Are you using a heavy horse saddle or just a roller?

I know very little about heavy gear, Bertie in IHDG (www.montyroberts.co.uk, discussion group) does a lot of ploughing and stuff, ask her, she knows all about rigging heavy horse stuff, I am trained under the Light Harness Horse Training Board which only covers things from Shetlands in governess carts to road coaches!

Common sense would suggest the same principles apply, you need to get a balance between the draught and the brakes.
I know with breast harness on carriages, if the point of draught is too low it will cause the top of the collar to tip into the windpipe, a full collar is better for things towed from low down.

tazzle22

22nd Aug 2007, 07:22 PM

bertie will indeed know far more about the heavy horse stuff so the best person to ask.

we did harrowing for several years and always used a full collar ..... the lower position of the traces did indeed pull the breast collar out of alignment .... I must see if it will do the same with the empathy collar that Taz now wears - although I still think it will be suspect ;) ( havent harrowed in several years.)

just another couple pics for comparisons ....

this is one of the drivers at our driving trials group and its handy as its a lighter colour pony to see the harness against.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/crick57.jpg

I would be interested in your opinion on this wally .... I have lots pics I have taken of 4 wheel vehicles but I dont drive one. I nearly always have the feeling that the traces are pulling too low and not in the line of the collar ......... this one is sorta half way and once person I admire has her traces higher ... loads more have far lower so the line of draft of the traces follows out in a line over the withers ! ( I am trying to cop pics of this at the mo to edit out faces LOL) . With full / empathy collars it doesnt look so out of line to me but I would like to discuss this and learn ;)

It also shows a different sort of shaft as a bounus !

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/crick38.jpg

I was taught to have line of draft this high .... does this apply to two wheelers more then ?

not the best of angles to actually see the corect line of the vehicle as I am obviosuly "on a hill" coming out of the water and Taz is slightly flatter !

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/DSC01468.jpg

this is an empathy collar for those not having seen one...

Taz usually has a far lower head carriage than this and has quite a shallow chest. a collar like htis gives her shoulder more room to move while not interfering with her heqad carriage

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/100_1947.jpg

and just for a laugh ..... what else not to have a part of your harness when in a showring ... good old baler twine ;)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/tazcute.jpg

Wally

22nd Aug 2007, 07:46 PM

If you look at a lot of 4 wheelers they do seem to have a very low draught point.

Trace carriers are a must with them.

On Jane MaInnes' DVD on pairs to 4 wheelers she discusses this, and it seems the opinion is that as long as the line of draught is not spoiled, ie is straight and uninterupted by other bits of harness pulling the traces up or down, so long as the breast collar is not tipping so the top edge is diggin in that's fine.

On Jackson's little vehicle we have a very nice line of draught.

The issue is the top edge of the collar, not so much the line of draught not being level with the collar. It's a fine line though,.... when does the pressure build up and at what point does the collar start to tip??? Full collars are not so much of an issue.

BTW, It does my heart good to see well fitting harness and ponies with a happy face on.

Zingy

22nd Aug 2007, 07:52 PM

On that photo of the grey, the breeching looks wrong to me - not level and too small. Is it because of how the pony is moving when the photo was taken or is it not right?

Wally

22nd Aug 2007, 07:54 PM

This vehicle has quite a low splinter bar, but the horses have never come in with any kind of rough hair under the collar or rubs.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/sprimble/IMG_6672.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/sprimble/100-0027_IMG.jpg

This is Janes pair of Orlovs that I borrowed for my intermediate exam, put to a Spider Phaeton, the proportions are about the same for the Shetlands as for them. a reasonably low swingletree, but nothing drastic to cause the collars to flip.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/sprimble/freddie-the-frog-welsh-2.jpg

And again, about the same set up, but I am winging it and not using trace carriers!

Wally

22nd Aug 2007, 07:55 PM

Look at the left buttock of the horse, it is at full stretch back, so it has pulled the breeching back and the hips have tipped, stood up on the flat I'd bet the breeching is level and the right length.

Zingy

22nd Aug 2007, 08:01 PM

Thanks Wally

tazzle22

22nd Aug 2007, 08:20 PM

thanks wally :p

it was the issue of the breast collar riding up and taking the weight up onto the lower neck that concerned me........ I have now looked closer at the pics I have and on several the collar appears held by the false martingale or just not pulled out of shape

although on some occasions there appears too much wieght on the neck straps holding the breastcollar . on one so much you can see an indent ! ... sometimes too , more on the lighter webbing harnesses the breast strap appears to be "bending".

I shall have to diable my current picture viewer as its saving pics with a file extension I cant upload ..... *%+*& computers ;):D;)

Colonel

23rd Aug 2007, 07:54 AM

Thisi s fantastic!

What is a swingle?

I used to work for David Broomes Father who had 16.2hh Palominos for weddings and they had collar harness - beautiful. But I never had to fit it!:eek:

I put the harness on Gabrielle yesterday and she looked good:D I did initially think the breeching was a bit high but looking at the piccies it seems okay but will post a piccie this weekend to get your thoughts.

Anyway, Gabby thought it was fantastic and really wanted to canter in her harness! I did about 10-15 mins just driving her in the harness and then had a friend hold onto the traces (extended by that ever loveable Baling twine!) and lean back so that Gabby had to pull her! Gabby looked back and sort of expressed ' ok thats what you want me to do?' ( I put her in her normal bridle with no blinkers and French link bit) She was fantastic - friend was a little tired after 10 mins but very impressed with how little effort Gabby put into pulling her up a hill:D

I hope to do the same on Saturday and possibly introduce a tire - what do you think?

Colonel

23rd Aug 2007, 07:56 AM

Wally

23rd Aug 2007, 08:13 AM

Work at the speed the horse wants to, there's no point spending 12 months training a horse you could get going in 6 weeks, but don't get over confident............like our overseas student! :o The little chap we are training atm is going really well, he's trotting large circles and doing a step of rein back after 2 weeks, so far nothing has gone wrong, and our student was getting very confident, but I told her not to be so bold as it often can go pearshaped just after you relax and think you've cracked it.

Well, yesterday I was bourne out, we had just done a cracking little schooling session, and had just said, that's that, time to pack up on a good note, when for no reason at all he did a big buck, kicked the vehicle and scared himself, we did several circuits in panic and I calmed him down and then had to to another couple of circuits to convince him he was okay. Had I had him in a more advanced situation like on the road there could have been a nasty accident.

So my advice is always expect the unexpected even if the horse has been as cool as a cucumber. But don't be afraid to progress a horse as fast as he's comfy with, but then back off for a long time while you get miles under his belt.

If you were using full collar harness you'd have no need for a swingletree, but using breast collar you must have them. With most modern vehicles you will have both roller bolts to attach collared horses to, or fixed trace hooks on a 2 wheeler, but they also have swingletrees for collared harness. The swingle trees rock forwards and backwards to accomodate the horse's shoulders moving forwards and back, if you attached them to fixed points the poor horse would get sore shoulders as he worked in collars that were static. Full collars are up on the shoulders and won't rub.

On the photo of the bay pair, have a look by their tails, you'll see the traces attached to two horizontal bars which swing, and above them there are two little mushrooms, those are for collars.

Wally

23rd Aug 2007, 08:14 AM

Colonel, the heavy saddles are generally for the heavy farm carts, for ploughing and the like I think you are fine with just a roller.

Go and speak to Bertie on Montyroberts.co.uk. She's really great on heavy horse stuff, she does all the snazzy decorative harness too and what she don't know about heavy horse stuff ain't worth knowing, it is a totally different art to light harness horse stuff.

klebert

23rd Aug 2007, 09:44 AM

Hullo folks! I'm the bertie from the IHDG, but as Bertie was taken on here I've had to use Bert's proper name of Klebert!

Right... where to start.

Oh.. I know.... OMG!!! What on earth was the Judge thinking in letter such appallingly fitting harness into their ring? Judging is what I am aiming for once passing my BDS exams and I am not sorry to say but those competitors would have been having a quiet word in their ear!!

Correctly fitting harness is a necessity, whether it be a breast or full collar and wether you are using light horses or heavy horse - period!!

Unfortunately photo bucket is down (again), so I will need to post again when it's back online.

Colonel - may I ask where abouts are you in the Country?

Wally

23rd Aug 2007, 09:53 AM

Hello Bertie, Klebert.....whoever :D :D

Thanks for coming to hlep out, plough gear and stuff is beyond me!

And wern't they great shots of how not to harness up? I tell you, I am still upset, my nerves, my nerves! Just found out the judge is not qualified to judge harness or driven turnouts!!!! So where in the show's risk assesment does that fit then??

I know, let's have a lumberjack contest, you know, where they chop trees into interesting shapes with chains saws! I know nothing about chainsaws, but hey, let's give them to the kids to play with too! (I am fairly certain too that one turnout was manned by two kids, and the accepted norm is that no child under 16 is allowed to drive in the ring unless accompanied by a competent adult)

Colonel

23rd Aug 2007, 10:31 AM

Hello Kleburt

I am in South Wales, Cwmbran to be exact.

I have never worked a plough, harrow or roller with a harnessed horse before.

My mare is 14.2/14.3hh Section D (Dam Section C, Sire Section D) shall post a piccie of her but she is a lot fatter now!

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z300/pttmorris/Gabbyterriflickahorsesjul07003.jpg

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z300/pttmorris/Gabbyterriflickahorsesjul07014.jpg

Colonel

23rd Aug 2007, 10:59 AM

The pics above were taken in june when we thought she was pregnant. She is in fact a bit thinner and is starting to be worked more often now.

I have noticed that the breeching strap support over the horses quarters all vary in their position. Is there a correct position for it to be in or just an optimum position?

klebert

23rd Aug 2007, 11:09 AM

Hiya! Call me Tara... it'll be much easier! ;)

Photobucket is still down... but will keep trying (as I have lots of pics to share with you all!) :D

She's a cracking little mare and I'm sure will be very apt at a life 'in the collar'. The reason I asked where about you were is that I hoped you would be close enough to a chap that I would 100% recommend that you visit before trying to work your mare.

His name is Jonathan Waterer and he is in North Devon.

http://www.heavy-horses.net/

Jonathan still works his horses on his farm - logging, harrowing, ploughing, rolling, planting crops, spreading dung etc etc and he also does weddings, funerals and rides too (this man has perfected the 28 hour day)!

I sent my Breton, Podge there in January to be trained up and have already pre-booked my youngster in for two years time! Seriously... he is that good!
He is also a very very good teacher for humans wanting to learn the art of using horses in harness. :)

klebert

23rd Aug 2007, 11:15 AM

The correct position for the seat of breeching is half way between the hock and the dock.

The easiest way to think about it is that it needs to sit on the area of the rump where there is least movement when the horse walks... however! Too high and it could slip under the horses tail and cause it to buck (plus be useless) and too low could cause the horses legs to be swept out from underneath it when going down hill!

Unfortuately there is a shire driver in my local club that thinks the latter is actually correct and when I tried to be helpful and actually adjusted it to the correct position, the wife came along and adjusted it straight back to being low enough that it bangs on the horses hocks! AGGHHHHH!! :mad:

klebert

23rd Aug 2007, 11:28 AM

Photobucket is back up, so apologies for lots of photos! :p

This is cart harness, with a cart pad (large square pad on Podges back) and full breeching. If you remember that if the implement that you use has shafts (as this logger does and as a roller will have) then you will need to use a cart pad and breeching.

This is Jonathan training Podge for logging...
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/bertie157/CA2RSTUV.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/bertie157/CA2RABUD.jpg

When you are doing something like harrowing or ploughing, then you do not need breeching, however in the below pictures of my pair ploughing last October you will see breeching! This is simply because the type of harness they are wearing is an Armish made harness (from Canada) and they use the breeching to also hold the collars in place.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/bertie157/Gib_Bertplow2.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/bertie157/GibBertplow3.jpg

I use Armish adjustable collars for working my horses, as they are inexpensive and you are able to adjust them by three inches depending on the season (and how fat or lean your horse is).

Jonathan also uses the same harness makers in Canada as I do, but the style of harness that he uses is slightly different in so far as it is a belly-backer style as opposed to a New England D style that I prefer (horses for courses really).

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/bertie157/DSCF0012.jpg

Colonel

23rd Aug 2007, 12:12 PM

How exciting!

Where would I be able to get a collar from? Obviously don't want to spend too much at this stage but it must also be useable and safe.

Don't think my husband would let me send her away to somewhere else as first the cost and then he would miss 'his girl'! (I think they are having a bit of a relationship actually!)

I am going to continue the basic stuff with the breast harness - would that be okay for pulling the harrows? I do believe I have to get two going to be able to pull the harrows as well so will use my daughters gelding - will try and find a piccie.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z300/pttmorris/Gabbyterriflickahorsesjul07011.jpg

This is the best recent one I am afraid. He has a very straight back and seems to move like a trotter, except that he moves with a very short stride in the hind.

Esther.D

23rd Aug 2007, 12:22 PM

Great to have a working heavy horse person on NR! Its a fascinating subject that I know nothing about.

Esther.D

23rd Aug 2007, 01:19 PM

If we do manage to buy our croft house (there is a possibility in the air for the house, not the land, the the house and kale yard...everything crossed) then something like that would be ideal for cultivating our kale yard! I'd love to have a play with something like that, one day (if it happens) we'll have to see if we can get one made.

klebert

23rd Aug 2007, 01:45 PM

What I would recommend is going to Jonathan for a few lessons yourselves first, before trying to get your mare to pull anything... especially harrows.

I've had a nasty accident when a large pony I was using to pull a single harrow was stung and then bolted and falling on a moving harrow is not an experience I would wish on anyone!

Why not give him a call and see what he has to say - the cost isn't as bad as you may think it could be! ;) And this is the reason why I recommend him so much...

The the above picture of Podge (who I travelled from Jersey in the Channel Islands to Devon in January this year for Jonathan to train to drive) with one of Jonathan's shires was taken after his first drive ever!

And the below pictures are what we have achieved in the few months since.

Driving as a pair with my horse Gibus - April 2007
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/bertie157/DSCF0007.jpg

Horse Driving Trials - Dressage section - May 2007
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/bertie157/012_25.jpg

Horse Driving Trials - marathon section - May 2007
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/bertie157/024_13.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/bertie157/026_11.jpg

Showing in exercise vehicle - May 2007
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/bertie157/PodgeShow2May07.jpg

Showing in my Ralli Car - June 2007
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/bertie157/010_15.jpg

What I'm trying to say (and not doing too well at it) is that I have been driving since I was 12 years old (and I'm 33 now) and I have trained a number of ponies and horses up to drive in that time. I would consider myself a fairly experience competitor, having shown,, competed at driving trails and having competed in plouging matches too. However, I feel that I have learnt a lot from Jonathan, not only with working with him with Podge, but with working with him in general... especially around farm machinery.

Does that make sense... or should I go and have another gin and tonic and try again later?? ;):p:D

Colonel

23rd Aug 2007, 02:27 PM

Feel that I have somewhat hi-jacked this thread - ever so sorry Esther.D:o

I am going to start a new post perhaps we can carry on there?

klebert

23rd Aug 2007, 02:43 PM

Absolutely and many apologies Esther....

Esther.D

23rd Aug 2007, 03:57 PM

Absolutely and many apologies Esther....

I don't mind - the more driving discussions the better! But I might fiddle and edit some of this so that people can find the info in the future :)

Colonel

23rd Aug 2007, 04:11 PM

Think thats a great idea Esther.D.

i have already sent an email to the Heavy Horse Trainer - fingers crossed he comes back with good news!:)

Wally

23rd Aug 2007, 05:04 PM

My uncle used to work horses, on his farm and his father's farm.

He has given me a few pointers, but there's nothing like hands on experience.

I might just ahve to go along, and visit your chap in the south next time I am down that way.

klebert

23rd Aug 2007, 07:40 PM

Jonathan and his wife Fiona are the most lovely people (and their B&B is also divine!).

Wally

24th Aug 2007, 08:21 AM

That boy of yours is mighty light on his feet for a heavy.......

I was watching the Clydesdales (sadly my least fave heavy breed) and they are a bit lumbering.

klebert

24th Aug 2007, 08:56 AM

Thanks Jo!

He really does 'daisy cut' at a trot, which is just so unusual and which really makes him stand out. I had to have front put on him for his training and his action changed so much... he went from being my floaty 'show pony' (yes... I am slightly mad and do call him this :p) to having quite a knee action. :eek: As soon as he was home, the shoes came straight off and within a week I had my floaty boy back! :D

Colonel

24th Aug 2007, 08:58 AM

How about a NR intro weekend? See how many would like to have a go and perhaps see about a more educational stay after trialling it?

I would be up for it!:)

klebert

24th Aug 2007, 02:22 PM

Sorry (having a dense moment again :rolleyes:) but what does 'NR' mean? :confused:

Colonel

24th Aug 2007, 02:30 PM

NEW RIDER = NR :p

HEHEHEHE

bustyblue

4th Sep 2008, 10:11 PM

hi what it is i have a welsh sec b, that i would love to drive, he is too young yet this is y i am trying to get as much info as i can for when he is old enough,
i have broke horses and i have alot of experince with them but i have never driven a horse nor had a close look at one. i can long rein from the ground but thats about it, as far as it comes to driving ect.
i dont have any idea what to do, i would be very greatfull if someone can give me advise on the harness, how to put it on, what sort i need or are they all the same
i have tryed to look for someone to train him when he older enough but had nothing from by me so i thought if i got enough knowledge about this i could try it myself :confused:
he is a stallion and would like to keep him like that, but he is a very calm one with a bit of give or take as he is young to, he has been very well handled,he loves new things and always trying to please and very quick learner very quick lol, so i thought he would be great to learn with. hope you can give me some tips thanx

AengusOg

5th Sep 2008, 06:24 AM

Somehow I missed this thread.............till now.

Well done Ed.

Those turnouts were appalling.........I can't understand why they weren't sent out and asked to refrain from showing till they got themselves an education in driving.

Looks like Francis' excellent camera work again (?). :D

Wally

5th Sep 2008, 08:56 AM

Angus, this thread is from last year! :D :D

As to the bad harness I have written to the show committee twice then finally collared the judge at the show, who later had a go and called me "you idiot woman who knows nothing.......little knowledge is dangerous......." I won't print the real sweary words she used to me, :D :D not on a family board! :D

When I phoned her to tell her my concerns about a 12 tear old and a 14 year old in one turnout with no adult groom, and not harness and carts not set up, she slammed the phone down on me!

Apparently, there is nothing wrong with the harness worn by the black pony wearing the Zilco with the baggy breeching and shafts about to fall out of the tugs, it's perfectly safe, it's just too big for the pony....and those were her words!

Esther.D

5th Sep 2008, 09:01 AM

Very surreal to see this thread at the top again - it was this time last year! This year I was 36wks pregnant at that show and the size of a whale..so not driving (especially considering the risk posed by some of the other turnouts!).

Unfortunately missed the driving this year as Beth was full of cold and we had to take her home so cannot comment on whether anything has improved.

Miriam

5th Sep 2008, 03:58 PM

I started reading this and then went "wow and how far on is she now" . My first thoughts were that you had had the baby. Then I thought she won and advanced pregnancy to boot :D

coyote

5th Sep 2008, 04:04 PM

No idea what a harness is supposed to look like tbh but by the sounds of it ,you were all lucky to get out of that class alive,due to the stupidity of others.;)

You did well and now look at you a mummy too,could very have nearly been a disaster where bump was concerned!!!

Esther.D

5th Sep 2008, 04:43 PM

AengusOg

5th Sep 2008, 08:01 PM

So why aren't you folks running the show?

Bump :D

Esther.D

6th Sep 2008, 07:58 AM

Because we are the minority, sadly there are two of us who get along well and sing from the same hymn sheet re most driving things (in fact most horsey things in general) but we are two on our own and ignored. We could have our own driving club and our own driving class but it might get a little dull eventually :D

Wally has complained, I haven't, I tried the tack (which Wally had already tried, unsuccessfully) of turning up correctly turned out and harnessed for the class but until a real driving judge is used that makes no difference, I was placed behind the turnout with the harness that was too big...admittedly Polo was a little excited and didn't stand perfectly so I am not bothered...but the other pony's harness didn't fit..so neither of us should have won - but at least I would have stayed in the ring! And they just muttered when I won the cones hands-down with a 22yr old pony - apparently they didn't stand a chance - well thats hardly my fault is it? :rolleyes: He was at least twice the age of all the other ponies, but he is still fast and knows his job.

I am continuing entering but can only take my most reliable and experienced ponies as I don't trust the other turnouts...its a sad state of affairs and one that would be fixed easily with a decent driving judge instead of just using the ridden judges.

Wally

6th Sep 2008, 08:52 AM

Sorry to bust your bubble Esther, but certain ones who winked at HRT and said under her breath, "don't let me down" as said competitor slapped the reins on the horse's bum two handed, in a poorly fitting, poorly balanced cart, who did ever decreasing circles around the judge with the breast collar around his knees..... is now a driving judge, so ought to have known better.

My sin to be put second was A did one stride of canter when asked to lengthen........we too got sniffed at when we trounced them in the cones........funny how well fitting harness allows the horse to move forward and maneouvre the vehicle! :D :D

Angus, due to my pestering by letter, which was ignored, then by trying to get the ring steward to stop the class and straighten some of the dangerous harness up, then by phone to the mafia leader Frances and I were drummed out of the brownies! :D :D :D Certain members of said mafia tried to get Frances kicked out of the mother stud book society, when that failed we received our membership fee back from the smaller breed society which runs the show.......oh the shame, :) ;).......should Esther stick her head above the parapet I dare say they'd take potshots at her too! :D :D

Miriam

6th Sep 2008, 05:37 PM

Start your own club and I could always bring my two along :P

On the other hand maybe I should just turn up with my broncing boy :D I'd win

Esther.D

6th Sep 2008, 06:25 PM